2152. trouserPilot - June 1, 1998 - 12:37 PM PDT
lab_jar
(Forgive me if this has been covered already.) Have you seen "Art"?
2153. labarjare - June 1, 1998 - 12:56 PM PDT
tP - eh? as in Garfunkel? It is only Monday. Gimme a break.
2154. trouserPilot - June 1, 1998 - 1:37 PM PDT
lab-jar
As in the play.
2155. labarjare - June 1, 1998 - 1:48 PM PDT
oh. No.
btw - check your e-mail. It will make your Monday.
2156. RobertDente - June 1, 1998 - 1:52 PM PDT
Sorry to but in, but you know when compulsion strikes... from trustworthy friends who have seen both: "The London production was infinitely better. The American version suffers from BAD adaption and BAD acting."
2157. RobertDente - June 1, 1998 - 1:54 PM PDT
Sorry to butt in, but you know, when compulsion strikes... from trustworthy friends who have seen both: "The London production was infinitely better. The American version suffers from BAD adaption and WEAK acting."
2158. trouserPilot - June 1, 1998 - 1:54 PM PDT
lab_jar
checked and replied. Unless you've already re-replied.
2159. trouserPilot - June 1, 1998 - 2:01 PM PDT
lab^jar
Do you have any theater recommendations (keeping in mind I don't actaully arrive for almost two months)? "Corpus Christi" is probably on the short list, now that it's been resurrected (hehe). I'd love to see Leguizamo's opus, as I have a serious crush on him, but I also fear that it might be gone by late July. (Elliot803 and I had originally hoped to catch Eddie Izzard's show, but it's defintely going to be history.....) The subject of "Art" has interested me ever since I read a review of the London production... but... Alan Alda... feh!
2160. trouserPilot - June 2, 1998 - 5:06 PM PDT
lab*jar
Funny synchronicity... on the same day as your "Garfunkel" quip, who would appear on the Letterman program but the man himself! Eerie! Or do you have moles in Worldwide Pants?
Feel free to ignore any or all of this post.
2161. labarjare - June 2, 1998 - 5:10 PM PDT
Can never ignore you, tP. By the way, if it wasn't obvious I guess I will confess that I am not exactly on top of the theater scene in NYC right now. But, I suppose The Sound of Music is not what you had in mind. Let alone The Lion King.
I hear good things about the new production of Cabaret.
I also will ask those whom I know who would know more than I.
2162. KurtMondaugen - June 2, 1998 - 5:12 PM PDT
TP:
I've read a couple of good reviews of "Bob", a one-man 'biographical' piece on Robert Wilson. Even if it's awful, it's an interesting premise.
2163. labarjare - June 2, 1998 - 5:14 PM PDT
Mondaugen! Don't forget to comply with my request in the Movies Thread.
2164. KurtMondaugen - June 2, 1998 - 5:19 PM PDT
lab:
Go to Movies, find your request, scroll back 6 posts. Sheesh, talk about attentive.
2165. labarjare - June 2, 1998 - 5:21 PM PDT
Well, it has been a vexing day.
2166. trouserPilot - June 2, 1998 - 5:22 PM PDT
Kurt
Yes! I saw a squib on the "Bob" thing. It's on the slightly-longer-than-short list....
2167. labarjare - June 2, 1998 - 5:26 PM PDT
Or you could go to the Met and boo his production of Lohengrin. (Sorry, Mon. It indeed has been one of those days.)
Actually, having a production booed by those boring boors is probably one of the greatest compliments Wilson has received recently.
2168. Philistine - June 2, 1998 - 5:26 PM PDT
Okay, time to contaminate this thread with comicbook talk again!
The latest issue of Chris Ware's incomprable "Acme Novelty Library" was released on an unsuspecting public last week, featuring fan favorites Jimmy Corrigan (The Smartest Kid On Earth) and Quimby The Mouse. New Features include "The Adventures of the G.I. Jim Action Club" a series of one-page vingettes in which Rusty Brown continually outwits Chalky White in their attempts to one-up each other in the action figure collecting 'biz.'
A great deal of the fun of Acme Novelty Library has always been the fake, yet convinsingly rendered advertisements. A pertinent sample.
ART
Dangerous if handled incorrectly. Harmless. Completely unneccesary. Priceless. Worthless. Weird! Who knows what this is, this mysterious substance that everyone seems to be so worried about identifying. Whatever - get some now
No. 1540. Stuff....................$10/lb.
Also on the same page are ads for "Art Teacher" "Art Dealer" Art Magazine" "Art Critic" "Art Gallery" and "Shit Powder."
Acme Novelty Library is published by Fantagraphics Books, and costs $4.95. Warning! This product is habit-forming!
2169. RobertDente - June 3, 1998 - 12:43 PM PDT
"A picture lives by companionship, expanding and quickening in the eyes of the sensitive observer. It dies by the same token. It is therefore a risky act to send it out into the world. How often it must be impaired by the eyes of the unfeeling and the cruelty of the impotent who would extend their affliction universally!"
Mark Rothko (1952)
2170. RobertDente - June 4, 1998 - 9:38 AM PDT
wabbit- Tried to send you email -- it was returned --do you have a new address?
2171. wabbit - June 4, 1998 - 10:35 AM PDT
My address is in a state of flux (damn difficult getting reliable transportation in and out of flux these days). Try wwabbit@mailcity.com.
2172. labarjare - June 4, 1998 - 1:44 PM PDT
A long review in today's W.S.Journal about the various current shows at the National Gallery, including the Rothko retrospective. He (Eric Gibson) isn't too keen on it, mostly because of the way the art is displayed. But, he also says: "Beyond the tabloid aspects of the artist's life and career are Rothko's ambitions. It wasn't enough that he wanted his paintings to be springboards to transcendental experience. They had to convey 'tragedy, ecstasy, doom and so on,' he once said. All this from colored rectangles. Remarkably, he succeeded. Across town at the Phillips Collection there is a small room with a Rothko on each wall and a bench in the middle, nothing more. It's at once one of the sparest yet amplest aesthetic experiences anywhere. In an atmosphere of utter tranquillity Rothko's paintings do indeed evoke a profound, if generalized spirituality."
I've talked about this room before but not as eloquently.
2173. trouserPilot - June 4, 1998 - 2:22 PM PDT
When I visited MOCA in LA last summer, they had very small space (sort of like a corridor with one end shut) stuffed with Rothkos. I thought it kind of detracted from them, having them bunched together like that.
2174. RobertDente - June 4, 1998 - 9:57 PM PDT
PETER MAX TO BE JAILED
Famed psychedelic artist Peter Max begins a two-month prison term for tax evasion on Aug. 1. The multimillionaire painter pleaded guilty last year to hiding $714,000 in income by bartering his art for various goods and services during 1987-91. U.S. district judge Kimba Wood also sentenced Max to 800 hours of community service (teaching art to disadvantaged children) and fined him $30,000.
(He should get "the chair" for his paintings, imo!)
2175. Philistine - June 4, 1998 - 9:59 PM PDT
"$714,000 in income by bartering his art"
Wow! That's nearly thirty six tons of art!
2176. trouserPilot - June 5, 1998 - 11:18 AM PDT
Side note: those with long memories will remember that Kimba Wood was breifly Clinton's second choice for AG.
2177. RobertDente - June 5, 1998 - 12:31 PM PDT
Somebody, I can't quite remember who, was looking for some potentially good theater to see in NYC toward the end of July. It has come to my attention that "A View From the Bridge," with Anthony LaPaglia and Allison Janney is a first rate production. It's directed by the brilliant and much in demand (and yes folks, gay) Michael Mayer.
2178. Paradigm - June 8, 1998 - 8:03 AM PDT
lab, you weren't particularly eloquent in your post. Nor is Rothko a talented painter. His cock was sucked too often by Clement Greeburg to have any lead left in his fingers...How didya think drip paintings happned?
Robert Dente, A gay director on Broadway? I'm shocked. Really shocked. It ain't called Nancy boy city for nothing. Has the director somehow managed to tell an allegory of AIDS? I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure. Let us just pray the cure for AIDS doesn't come anytime soon.
2179. RobertDente - June 8, 1998 - 8:07 AM PDT
Shirley-
When did you learn to get attention with hatred? Curious minds want to know?
2180. wabbit - June 8, 1998 - 8:10 AM PDT
On Saturday, I drove to scenic Kent, CT, to see Robert's show. I've said before and must now repeat that viewing art on a computer screen does not compare to seeing it in person. Robert's monoprints are comprised of several layers of saturated colors, resulting in a texture and delicacy that cannot be effectively reproduced on a monitor. The images, while not large, draw you in and envelope you while retaining an incredibly intimate and personal sense of place. I highly recommend seeing his work to anyone who has the chance to do so in person.
2181. RobertDente - June 8, 1998 - 8:15 AM PDT
Go for the scenic spring drive...fuck the art!!!
(blush)
2182. wabbit - June 8, 1998 - 8:23 AM PDT
(Just don't get directions from Robert!)
2183. RobertDente - June 8, 1998 - 8:25 AM PDT
LOL!
(blush)
2184. Paradigm - June 8, 1998 - 9:52 AM PDT
Robert are you an artist. Is Mapplethorpe a hero of yours. Stay healthy bub cause if you don't you will die a well deserved slow painful agoninzing death from the disease you didn't have to get...The lack of virtue has its own "rewards."
2185. KurtMondaugen - June 8, 1998 - 11:03 AM PDT
bulle:
Comments like that really belong over in the Religion thread.
2186. Paradigm - June 8, 1998 - 11:15 AM PDT
Dawg I humbly disagree. There is an art to dying and a lot of dead art around. Just visit the Whitney or the Guggenheim or the Met or the Modern....
2187. bubbaette - June 8, 1998 - 1:16 PM PDT
*
2188. labarjare - June 8, 1998 - 7:49 PM PDT
Paradigm - Drip painting and Rothko? Did you perchance mean Pollack?
Take more care in your slurs, Big Boy.
2189. Seguine - June 8, 1998 - 9:10 PM PDT
I was always against Kimba Wood's nomination. Not for any political reason, but because I just didn't think we should have an attorney general named "Kimba Wood".
2190. labarjare - June 9, 1998 - 6:49 AM PDT
Para. - how did the Frick escape your attention? Or the Brooklyn?
2191. Paradigm - June 9, 1998 - 7:38 AM PDT
Lab, the Frick is just silly...A historic house really..And brookly where is that??? I was there once...I sell among other things...Spanish Colonial Art...(if one knows the art world one can easily find my identity with the clue I've just given) Brooklyn has a collection and had a show...It was a joke ...anthropological artifacts...But hey it's Brooklyn...Has anyone ever known anyone they liked who lived in Brookly. Has anyone ever gone the Brooklyn Museum voluntarily? By voluntarily I don't mean the busloads of minority children who are forced to go and look at the goofy Rodin's (the met has the same shit) and hence learn to hate art and museums forever.... Ah I digress... And Lab in my haste I of course misspoke regarding drip paintings...You of course are right as to authorship.
2192. CharlieL - June 9, 1998 - 7:43 AM PDT
*
2193. labarjare - June 9, 1998 - 7:46 AM PDT
Well, para. - what about that rather unusual museum up on Broadway by CUNY nee CCNY? You know the one I mean - those terrific mostly Spanish paintings (including by some of the biggies as I recall) about as horribly displayed as could be.
BTW - this may be chauvinistic, but the Brooklyn has really spruced up over the past few years. Go take another look. FWIW - I am not overly fond of the Frick either.
FWIW again - we are moving. Probably to near your neighborhood. HA.
2194. KurtMondaugen - June 9, 1998 - 7:47 AM PDT
lab:
You're moving to Church St.? Anyway, Parabull, ever visit the Mattress Factory?
2195. marjoribanks - June 9, 1998 - 7:50 AM PDT
Spareadime happens to live comfortably close to Bellevue, by edict if I am not mistaken.
2196. Paradigm - June 9, 1998 - 8:12 AM PDT
shush marj shush!
The Hispanic Society is at 145 and Broadway. It has a good collection but it is a dead head waspy institution run into the ground. Even though the old guard is retired it still rules. The endowment has been wasted so that they missed the bull market...Get this they hired a fundraiser from North Carolina to raise money in Spain for the Museum...Didn't get a nickle. Now they want to do outreach to the local Hispanics. Give us your coke dealers your welfare momas...God help em... Oh and some of the Old Guard had a honey pot which they was dippin inta regular like.. It wasn't a big honey pot but dippin into one in the museum business is pretty rugular. Sad really. So what's new. There was talk of it being taken over and moved to San Antonio Texas at one point...it woulda been the best thing...
2197. labarjare - June 9, 1998 - 8:24 AM PDT
Have they sold off their Goya(s?) or el Greco(s) yet?
2198. Seguine - June 9, 1998 - 8:32 AM PDT
There's a small but nice collection of Spanish painting (some Velazquez, a couple of Goyas, etc.) at the Meadows Museum at SMU in Dallas. Meadows folks are always rubbing elbows with Prado folks, hosting traveling exhibitions, that sort of thing.
Just a helpful hint for folks in the provinces. I mean the hinterland. Or, well, Bumfuck Egypt.
(Wait--Bumfuck Egypt would be Grand Prairie.)
2199. Paradigm - June 9, 1998 - 1:27 PM PDT
I know the Meadows well indeed. Sold it quite a bit of art. seems the prvious director was fired for being a total toad. He was a lil Ivy Leaguer on drugs and booze who failed up til he failed out. Mr. Heath was his name.
2200. Paradigm - June 9, 1998 - 1:28 PM PDT
I know the Meadows well indeed. Sold it quite a bit of art. Seems the prvious director was fired for being a total toad. He was a lil Ivy Leaguer on drugs and booze who failed up til he failed out. His last name was the same as a popular candy bar.
2201. CharlieL - June 9, 1998 - 1:32 PM PDT
*
2202. CharlieL - June 9, 1998 - 1:33 PM PDT
*
2203. Paradigm - June 9, 1998 - 1:34 PM PDT
That was an intelligent post Charlie....
2204. Jenerator - June 9, 1998 - 1:44 PM PDT
Seguine and Paradigm,
Fellow Texans???
2205. CharlieL - June 9, 1998 - 2:02 PM PDT
Just calling them as I see them, *.
2206. labarjare - June 9, 1998 - 3:19 PM PDT
Say - I like both Spareadime and ParaBull as names. But, based on what I see above he may be NeedBigBucks soon. Say Big Boy - what do you know about libel law? Candy bar, indeed. Those judgments can get very very disturbing.
2207. Paradigm - June 9, 1998 - 3:39 PM PDT
Hey I got the bastard cold. He tried to ____ ____ from me in a letter. I helped get his arse cold. Lawsuite I don't think so. I know you're a lawyer and looking out for my best interests but what was that a lawyer told his client about sueing for libel for his client a thief. Sue him and the bastard is liable to go out a prove it.
2208. Paradigm - June 9, 1998 - 3:44 PM PDT
^ "somene" should have been inserted in the above
^ "calling" " " " " " " "
humbly thine paradigm
2209. bubbaette - June 9, 1998 - 4:50 PM PDT
*
2210. labarjare - June 9, 1998 - 4:57 PM PDT
I smell sweat and bluff, Big Boy.
2211. RobertDente - June 9, 1998 - 10:24 PM PDT
I saw two shows in Soho today well worth seeing. 1) The Victor Hugo exhibition at the Drawing Center on Wooster is quite remarkable for its modernity and its scope. It's under lit and the Louvre pulled two of his best after the ceiling problem. Nevertheless it's an amazing visual ride. The catalog is way overpriced, but it brings out a lot more of the detail than the actual show -- which is almost spooky. I can't even mention all of the artists that came to mind and the fecundity of stimulating ideas that the drawings evoke.
2) There is also powerful painting show at The Edward Thorp Gallery on Spring Street. He is showing an artist whom I've admired for some time; his name is Christopher Brown. Unfortunately he has been slightly seduced by the work of Terry Winters (like too many trendoid wannabes), but in spite of this criticism, the show is worth a painting lover's time. There are some drop-dead gorgeous, large scale paintings to be seen. The show was sold out two days before it opened and I'm surprised that there wasn't more attention given by the press. Or maybe there was and I just missed it? In any case it's strong effort.
Now for the annoying part: I think that both shows come down this weekend!
2212. RobertDente - June 9, 1998 - 10:33 PM PDT
Senecio- Two must see exhibitions for you, IMO, are uptown. They are both mystical and relate to each other in almost miraculous ways. The first is a deep and rich (especially watercolors) show at Jan Krugier of Paul Klee. The second is just across 57th Street at Babcock (on 5th Ave.) of Marsden Hartley -- especially his still lifes. If you have the time, I think you'd be thrilled with the rare quality in these offerings.
2213. PamIAm - June 9, 1998 - 10:42 PM PDT
I don't know if y'all (Arts thread regulars) would consider this visual art "real art" but I like it and I'm interested in your opinions. It's done by computer.
2214. Paradigm - June 10, 1998 - 6:41 AM PDT
garbage garbage garbage....
Lab, No sweat. No worry. I got the sob cold. He ain't there I is. ha ha ha ha...
I'll never be friends with him though...
2215. CharlieL - June 10, 1998 - 6:50 AM PDT
*
2216. Seguine - June 10, 1998 - 10:57 AM PDT
RD,
"There is also powerful painting show at The Edward Thorp Gallery on Spring Street. He is showing an artist whom I've admired for some time; his name is Christopher Brown."
I once reviewed a Christopher Brown show in San Francisco for the (now defunct) ARTS Magazine. I liked him at the time, but in retrospect certain reservations I had have become more pronounced.
Meat,
Hey, everyone in Dallas has been coked out of his mind for the last 20 years (except for those individuals using meth); what do you care, as long as people have some decent painting to look at?
2217. Paradigm - June 10, 1998 - 11:25 AM PDT
Sorry Seguine I don't fine coke addiction funny. I find coke addicts dying a blast. I find them going to jail a hoot. I don't find dealing with one in the real world a pleasure. If Dallas has been on a toot for twenty years perhaps that is why it is such a wasteland that has yet to recover from the last recession. The Dallas Museum (just lost its director) is the joke of big city museums. The Symphony might be better off if it played jazz ( the lowest form of music ever) and what else... There ain't much. Oh the vowel who runs the Concert Hall has a tin ear.... Need I say more. I prefer Ft.Worth myself .
2218. Seguine - June 10, 1998 - 12:02 PM PDT
My dear pair of 10-cent steaks,
No one here even alluded to the humorousness of coke addicts, and of course anyone with a choice in the matter wouldn't want to have to do business with one. Why would you bother?
As for Dallas being a wasteland, why yes, of course it is. But that just goes to prove that having cultural institutions doesn't necessarily do a citizenry any good. Dallas has fine art and music venues because wealthy people think it ought to, not because there's any aesthetic or intellectual fire burning there. (You should keep this in mind when you go off on one of your rants about New York!) As for the DMA, well it hasn't much of a past, so I expect it will be a while before it can generate a serious future. Fort Worth certainly has a longer history of impassioned acquisition, not just of Remingtons thank god.
As for Big Stupid having not recovered from the last recession, I have no idea what you're talking about. From what I hear, all the ostensibly doomed, gruesome business parks Trammel Crow built in the '80s are now full of tenants. People are relocating to Dallas & suburbs from all over the US. Children drive their BMWs to junior high school. Jesus is Lord.
2219. Paradigm - June 10, 1998 - 12:38 PM PDT
And Dallas is still a bean town. My "rants" regarding New York have to do with the utter and total corruption in the arts here. One has to be in it to know it I guess. A mere critic usually knowns nothing and does nothing. That's why they are critics. That doesn't however absolve the institutions fromn an obligation to the truth. New York doesn't pass the test. Five hundred people control culture here and 495 of them have a financial interest. Not that money is a bad thing. Hidden interests usually are howevah (sic). So you see my friend Dallas can be a joke but New York can be a crime.
2220. CharlieL - June 10, 1998 - 12:54 PM PDT
*
2221. labarjare - June 10, 1998 - 2:22 PM PDT
ohhh, Bull shit.
2222. RobertDente - June 10, 1998 - 2:43 PM PDT
Pam- Shallow work, imo! (Nothing personal kid!)
Seg- Oh please go on! I see his limitations, but two works in the Thorp show elevated my opinion of his potential. He's pulling imagery from Jim Dine's Gate series and Terry Winter's organic motifs and melding the two quite shrewdly. But still, some impressive energy nonetheless. They will be in corporate board rooms throughout this country and Architectural Digest in no time at all. He is headed for success...but not necessarily immortal admiration and respect.
Meat? Who is Meat?
2223. Paradigm - June 10, 1998 - 7:18 PM PDT
Oh Lab get an education. You're so angry cause you missed out on life by going to Harvard. Imagine having to sit through boring Telford Taylor's class. God help. Another Ivy toad who did good for the world and better for himself who fought the war behind a desk. F em all. Go write for a Fox sitcom like the rest of the really brilliant and the brilliantly funny Harvard boys are doing. Leave the real art to the educated. Go on now Lab just go on hom before somebody kicks salt in your wounds and takes your doll away.
As I was saying. If you want culture you go to Paris. Paris has architecture, painting, opera grace whit and style. New York has bagels the Harvard Club (they even let non-grad Ivan Boesky join, Lab and thousand of others like him passing time pretend to run our dead cultural institutions all on the government titty. Sick puppies if you ask me....Charlie * and Lab who should know better and would have if he hadn't gone to H.....
2224. CharlieL - June 10, 1998 - 7:28 PM PDT
*
2225. labarjare - June 10, 1998 - 7:28 PM PDT
Yet another spoke in the old wheel comes up for "airing".
What in the world would you have against an incredible man like Telford Taylor. Oh wait - its that McCarthy thing.
Culture in Paris, in all the areas you've mentioned (with the exception of a bit of the architecture and the opera) has seemed static for years, ParaBull. Especially in art. IMO.
Yes, the admission of Ivan Boesky to the Harvard Club was an outrageous event. (You no doubt know that his "connection" to Harvard was that he got himself named - ie, paid through the nose for the privilege of being so named - to the Visiting Committee for the DENTAL HEALTH aspects of the Medical School. Ye Gods. I used to see him there, preening away, etc.)
2226. Seguine - June 10, 1998 - 9:45 PM PDT
Meat,
"A mere critic usually knowns nothing and does nothing. That's why they are critics."
Mere art dealers usually have nothing of any worth to offer. That's why they're so cynically envious of fellow dealers who sell anything.
2227. Seguine - June 10, 1998 - 9:53 PM PDT
RD,
"They will be in corporate board rooms throughout this country and Architectural Digest in no time at all. He is headed for success...[]but not necessarily immortal admiration and respect."
But that's just it exactly.
It's not that I'm not impressed by an artist like Brown's ability to meld styles cleverly. But in the end, that's a technical feat, rarely more.
2228. RobertDente - June 11, 1998 - 6:24 AM PDT
Seg- Are there any contemporary artists out there *doing it* for you? If so, who? (I'm curious.)
2229. Paradigm - June 11, 1998 - 7:25 AM PDT
Lab everyone and everything has its price. I knew he bought his way in I didn't know how rediculous a buy it was. I'm still laughing.
Actually about Taylor I was being arch. I do have a problem with Nuremburg (sp?) however. I must add that the outcome right. First, as always the victors wrote the rules. No matter how fair that is just a fact. Second you will notice there was no Japanese equivalent. The Japs were equally racist and murderous although not on quite the scale of Hitler. Taylor dined out a long time on his moment of glory. Why didn't he speak out on the Japs? He was not a great man in my eyes. He was a functionary who did his job no more no less. It took no courage, no initiative no leap of intelligence to do what he did. Although he did it well.
As should be rather obvious I sometimes overstate my case to get heard. So Lab if I occasionally offend realize it isn't personal. You are one of the intelligent ones here. (God, you don't know how it pains me to say that of a Harvard man.)
2230. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 8:37 AM PDT
A serious response to Message #2229:
You will notice that no others feel they have to "overstate their case to get heard." Since all these posts stay around for a while, anyone can read and react to whatever they want.
If the offense was "occasional," as Paradigm seems to want us to believe, no one here would give a damn about it. Almost everyone is offensive here at one time or another. It is simple human nature, and is to be expected. Paradigm's offensive and insulting posts make up about 95% of his postings. Nothing "occasional" about it.
But to say "it isn't personal" is a lie of the lowest sort. Paradigm's posts are nothing else if not intensely personal attacks on those who stand up to his offensiveness.
He states elsewhere that he is getting tired of the *'s posted in response to his diatribes. Well, if his posts weren't so patently odious and offensive, the *'s would not be necessary.
Paradigm, why don't you try making your case without "overstating?" Or are you afraid that we would all find out once and for all that without insults you really do have nothing to say?
2231. Paradigm - June 11, 1998 - 11:14 AM PDT
Charlie, sounds to me like a peace offering. Hell if the Palestinians and Israelie's can get along why can't we? What do you do for a living? I'm curious. You are obviously a liberal. So how do you pay the rent? You know what I do.
About my "offensive" postings. The only thing I've attacked here is the liberal heterodoxy. For example: Isreal and its spear chuckers, Welfare recipients, minorities who think they are entitled et ali, et ali, et ali. It seems to me that I'm paying the bills for these folks hence I'm like a boss. But contrary to liberal ideology I don't feel I owe them an iota of respect.
The trouble starts when I attack in any language deemed "Racist, Anti-Semetic, or anti-gay" by the heterodoxists. They immediately go after me. Unlike Trent Lott and Newt I'm not looking for friends or for votes. I respond as I damned well think I should. I think it's called the first amendment. Oh I know I'm supposed to be civilized. IDF tortures Palestinian boys and I'm not supposed to call them names. Wrongo Charlie L wrongo. I'll call em anything I feel like. And if in the process of the name calling I wound. Well good. That's exactly what I wanted.
Look at the names Joe McCarthy has been called here. I don't think he ever killed a boy with a rubber bullet did he? I could go on: gay rights, affirmative action, Ralphy Nader, tenured sociology professors. The list is endless.
But first who are you Charlei L? Who are you? Let the dialogue begin.
2232. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 11:28 AM PDT
I've posted here enough that people know who I am and what I do for a living. We don't know who you are. And if you insist that it's your First Amendment right to sling insults at those who disagree with you rather than debate them, then fine. Since, as you say, I am a liberal (look it up in the dictionary, it doesn't mean anything like the perjorative meaning the right would love it to have), I'll support your right to say anything you want. Just don't expect a response other than * if that's all you do.
Just remember. If you are banned again because of your attacks, it is not in any way, shape, or form "censorship." The US Government does not own this corner of Cyberspace, and only the government is constrained from censorship by the law. Microsoft does own this "space," and despite nuclear tests being felt in Washington state, MS is not yet part of the government.
2233. Paradigm - June 11, 1998 - 12:31 PM PDT
Excuse me Charlie I thought you extended an olive branch I guess I was wrong. What you are doing is threatening to have me expelled because free speech doesn't apply to Microsoft. I take it you're a softie. Cause a dictionary liberal you aren't. More like a charter member of the Babawa Streisand, Jane Fona, Abe Fortas, Teddy Kennedy wing of the party...What is your problem pal.
I have no idea who you are chipper. From what I've seen I'm afraid I could guess because you are really rather transparent. Let me guess....No I'll wait. I'd like to hear it from your mouth. If I get bounced (for as you call them personal attacks) Slate will be down to what 99 readers. The Microsoft juggernaut will go on but the big moma's boy Bill G himself will self destruct sooner or later. I thought I'd never say something like this but Slate will get the union it deserves. ha ha
But Charlie why the reluctance to divulge what you do for a living. Could it be cause you are bigger on line than off? Just asking. I'm one of the few (?) who is bigger off than on. Not that I'm a big swinging "D." I differ from them in that I pay my taxes don't cheat anyone and try to have a life. I'm sure to a nabe the big swinging D's are something to behold... and New York is exotica. If you live in the pit with the teeming immigrant fluxux of thoid woild trash ruled over by preening crims like ____ ____ ____ I could name a hundred all of whom are liberals with a Democratic Party L and all of whom also stash cash in Switzerland. I couldn' but I won't. They know who they are. But trust me Charlie the ideas that mean so much to you don't mean sauat to them and you are a fool for it. But that's your business. Til then if you want polite company identify yourself by occupation at least. If you won't then you won't. But don't expect me to take your *** name calling lying down. I hurle rocks Charlie and I like it.
2234. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 12:41 PM PDT
*
2235. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 12:43 PM PDT
A huge steaming diatribe such as Message #2233 starts by asking me what *my* problem is?
It's all just wishful thinking and projection. And all of it *
2236. trouserPilot - June 11, 1998 - 12:55 PM PDT
Abe Fortas? Hahahahahahahaha! Nice up-to-date reference, there.
2237. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 1:02 PM PDT
I don't know about that. Back then I was a fetus and was busy planning the Korean War.
2238. CalGal - June 11, 1998 - 1:20 PM PDT
Oh, wow, I was going to post something just to bother Lab, but the Charlie/Paradigm faceoff has moved here.
Charlie, finish up quick, cutie.
2239. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 1:24 PM PDT
I'll try, CG, but there's so much of it to shovel...
2240. FrayVader - June 11, 1998 - 1:25 PM PDT
ATTENTION:
We'll be doing some server maintenance tonight, so Slate and the Fray will be _Read Only_ from 7 pm to about 10 pm PDT (10 pm to 1 am EDT).
Sorry for the inconvenience. During this period, you will be able to read the Fray, but will be unable to post.
2241. CalGal - June 11, 1998 - 1:26 PM PDT
Hey, Herc, you picked the task. I'd help, but think of the sense of triumph you'll feel when it's over.
2242. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 1:28 PM PDT
CG, it's the first "stable" job I've had in years...
2243. Seguine - June 11, 1998 - 1:57 PM PDT
Message #2228
Sigmar Polke.
There are others, but I'm not really focused on the subject of art right now, but on the subject of real estate.
I'm in a very, very bad mood.
2244. RobertDente - June 11, 1998 - 2:26 PM PDT
Seg- You mean that German artist that David Salle ripped off? ;-)
(Sorry about your mood -- you must be in the arts!)
2245. Paradigm - June 11, 1998 - 4:59 PM PDT
Too bad about you Charlie L. You're afraid to state what you do for a living. I guess we know the answer. Nothing much. Are you a bike messenger, a bus boy a soda jerk, a burger flipper at Burger King. Gosh I'll bet you're studying hard for the GED. Good luck to you putz. Tell me Charlie since you seem to like to dog me with that *** sign. Do you do that because...... to be continued.
2246. Paradigm - June 11, 1998 - 5:05 PM PDT
May I suggest that real art apprciation must begin with the Old Masters. One can't begin to understand modern/contemporary painting until one understand where it came from. It's roots are in Europe about 550 years ago. A little Carlo Crivelli anyone. Start in Italy move over to France and Spain. Germany and the early Flemings had something going. Unless you are a fan of Jennifer Bartlett stay out of the 17th century in the Netherlands (I'm sure Charlie L is fan of Rembrandt) where nothing much was produced by nobody at all. You'll enjoy the journey. Visit Florence Rome Munich the Orado and the Louvre. Make sure you see the Brussels Museum (Bosch for days) and when you're done you'll have a right to an opinion on conetmporary art. Of course you could be like Charlie L and have an opinion on everything sorta like the commies used to do. They had a position paper on everything and the bastards didn't know how to use the wheel sorta like Montezuma.
2247. trouserPilot - June 11, 1998 - 5:07 PM PDT
Those Old Masters... weren't they all homos?
2248. CharlieL - June 11, 1998 - 9:12 PM PDT
Pachydigm, I'm not afraid to post anything, putz. And it's odd you should mention Montezuma, because all of your posts remind me of his "revenge."
I design, install and troubleshoot Computer LANs and WANs for a living.
2249. CalGal - June 12, 1998 - 12:29 AM PDT
Charlie,
And the shits just keep on comin'....
(keep the faith)
2250. adrianne - June 12, 1998 - 4:41 AM PDT
TP - re: 2236
You have a short memory. It was revealed during this gentleman's last incarnation, as "Bulle" that he gets his information from 10+ old copies of People and Time magazines. Remember his list of "hot" places in NYC? Tired, tired, tired.
(Adrianne catches a nice nap while Bulle tells her to iron his shirts, shave her legs, perform homosexual acts, walk in Central Park after dark, etc., etc., etc., snnnnooooooooooooooozzzzzzzzzzzeeeee).
2251. DanDillon - June 12, 1998 - 5:46 AM PDT
Gee
2252. Paradigm - June 12, 1998 - 7:04 AM PDT
Ad you are a sorry old step mom who couldn't get a man and as I recall accepted other peoples mistakes cause you were so lonely you could die. Sad Sad Sad is the word I would apply to you.
Charlie L I haven't called you a name in a while. I suggest you refrain. I've got my word gun loaded and you in my sights. Take care fellah there be dragons here.
2253. adrianne - June 12, 1998 - 7:08 AM PDT
(whuzzat? hshs=-goshshsll...arrugugmama......)
Snoooooorrrrreeee...............
2254. CharlieL - June 12, 1998 - 7:50 AM PDT
You may have a word gun, *, but I suspect it's loaded with blanks, just like your other "gun" which is why you're such a bitter *.
2255. Paradigm - June 12, 1998 - 1:25 PM PDT
Charlie lil thang maybe if your moma hadn't mitook her____ from her_____ you wouldn't have turned out so bad.
Ad, couldn't you go post in the wicked step mom fray? Ad I've made a momentous decision you are on permanent "ignore." You hag you.
2256. harper - June 12, 1998 - 1:40 PM PDT
OK,Paradigm, I know a little about the Old Masters, the Renaissance,Northern European painting, etc. I think that all of Crivelli's women look like simpering Barbie dolls -- and they all look alike. I think Vermeer was the greatest artist who ever lived. I have never had a painting make me weep until I stood in front of Vermeer's "The Little Street" (which I almost didn't get to see at all because ol' Nootie had a tanty and helped to shut down the government including the National Gallery of Art).
2257. trouserPilot - June 12, 1998 - 2:11 PM PDT
Shhh, harper! Don't make fun of bulle's hero Nooty! Just because Nooty has a kind of high voice is no reason to impugn his masculinity. I mean, there are so many better reasons!
The Old Masters: homos, every one.
2258. harper - June 12, 1998 - 2:21 PM PDT
tP: Message #2257
So what's your point? *Somebody* has to be the sensitive male (g). While we may whisper about DaVinci and Michaelangelo, Rembrandt,Vermeer, and many others were family men. And who cares? I mean, wasn't *everybody* who counted in Renaissance Italy a bit, shall we say, fey (g)?
And as to Nooty, I had tickets to the Vermeer exhibit the day AFTER the govt. shut down. I figured that if I didn't get to see all those Vermeers, I was going to camp in on ole Nooty's front yard and yell rude things at him, the bloody Philistine. After all, Vermeer only painted about three dozen paintings, while politicians like Nooty are a dime a dozen.
2259. harper - June 12, 1998 - 2:24 PM PDT
Paradigm:
To continue on a point you've been making, if it hadn't been for a guy with more money than God (one of the Mellons, I think), the National Gallery of Art would have remained closed and NO ONE would have been able to see those Vermeers. He paid out of his pocket to keep that exhibit open. And I for one will be eternally grateful. Sometimes people who have lots of money do good things with it.
2260. Paradigm - June 12, 1998 - 3:06 PM PDT
Harper you are right some people with lots of money do do good things. Next. I tend to talk about the ones who don't. Mellon is a relative good guy... Some on the board at the Nat Gal are skime.
Newty didn't shut down the govt Billy da Cocksman did. Mind you I have no love for New, after his pandering pathetic Jerusalem foray.If you think Crivelli's women look simpering (whatever that means-- admit it you should be more specific then how can you stand Vermeer?) I admit Vermeer is not a bad artist but I'm thankful he didn't do more paintings cause he wasn't a great artist and his existing works about played out his one idea. But that is all a matter of debate.
You seem like an intelligent sort: What of Botticelli (sp?) There was a great master or Mr. Bosch or I could go on. Rembrandt is the only major fraud (to my eye) in the pantheon although Titian isn't what people would like him to be. Michaelangelo? He was great the greatest perhaps but deeply flawed. During the restoration of the Sistine Chapel ceiling I was on the scaffolding... No doubt about it. He was bent, a Nancy boy, a fairy, all that stuff. However despite that he could fresco. The man could fresco! It's probally he didn't apply his talents to painting women like he did men or no woman would ever ever bare her breasts today. hefner and Guccione wouldn't have made dime. As the Mike said "you gotta have balls." And his figures did.
I digress. Look to the early Flemings for real talent. Holand played itself after it revolted against the Spanish. Remember their iconoclasts destroyed their best art. Iconoclasm is not a virtue gang.
2261. Seguine - June 12, 1998 - 4:46 PM PDT
Meat,
Absolutely right about the Flemish.
What is your opinion of (the modern, figurative) Odd Nerdrum? I've seen some photographic reproductions, but nothing actual. Have you?
2262. trouserPilot - June 12, 1998 - 4:52 PM PDT
What is it about gazing at old paintings that robs one of one's ability to spell?
2263. RobertDente - June 12, 1998 - 7:26 PM PDT
Philistine- FYI: On Charlie Rose (PBS) *TONIGHT*
Outlaw Comics: Bob Adelman, Author / Photographer, "Tijuana Bibles: Art and Wit in America's Forbidden Funnies: 1930s-1950s"; Richard Merkin, Rhode Island School of Design
(The friday night show is usually rebroadcast on monday afternoons. so check your local listings.)
2264. harper - June 12, 1998 - 9:28 PM PDT
Paradigm: Message #2260
Botticelli -- I like Botticelli, but his women are a bit too pretty in some cases. He's very romantic and flowery, but I like his portraits. What I meant about Crivelli is that his women all have arched eyebrows and sort of pursed lips -- they simper (look it up).
I think Michaelangelo's sculpture is superb, but I think his painted figures are -- lumpy, like dumplings. It could be just the perspective looking up at the Sistine Chapel ceiling.
I love Bosch, but the man was really twisted. As I understand it, his symbolism still hasn't been completely figured out. Back in my hippie days, I had a large poster of his "Garden of Earthly Delights" on my wall. Friends liked to get stoned and just STARE at that poster. You could look at one of his paintings all day (if you could stand it) and still not see everything in it.
continued...
2265. harper - June 12, 1998 - 9:36 PM PDT
Continued..
Paradigm:
I like the Flemish and Netherlandsih painters because of their realism and the Northern light, A few years ago I saw Van Eyck's "Annunciation" after it had been cleaned. The gold color glowed -- and there was no metallic paint on it. Van Eyck used ochers and black in such a way that it glowed gold across the room.
I like Vermeer because his paintings are so realistic -- until you figure ou that the light isn't right and the perspective is deliberately skewed. Apparently he used a camera obscura for the perspective. But it's fun to compare the paintings and see where he used the same props or clothes on his models. I thinkhis art is really magical.
Titian doesn't do anything for me. I do a lot of historical costuming and I study Titian's portraits because they are realistic and portray the clothing accurately. Brueghel is fun. No high-falutin' subject matter for him.
How did you get to be on the Sistine Chapel scaffolding? Miust have been quite an experien
2266. Paradigm - June 14, 1998 - 12:27 PM PDT
I disagree about Brueghel Harp. What's his and what's a copy or his workshop will forever be unknown. Thousands of Breughel's float around at hefty hefty price tags and no one has a clue as to who did em. Also when you've seen four or five youve seen em all.
I used to be the building restoration business and had a graduate of the Columbia restoration program working for me who was Italian and connected to the highest level in Italy. Her parents lived in a Chateau with Croxie in the other. (he's the socialist ex-PM on the lam in Tunisia now--ah Italy)So strings were pulled and up the wife and I went. The wife cried of course--the other women present did also. What was most interesting is that you could see the scoring the pounce wheels made in the plaster. His figures aren't clunky close up....except for the women. There can be no doubt however that he was a fag. NO DOUBT. From the way he rendered his women it is clear he never even looked at one. Look at his work in the Medici Chapel in Florence. He was still a great artist. GREAT but flawed. Aren't all gays flawed? "Yup" if you're asking me....
2267. CharlieL - June 14, 1998 - 12:33 PM PDT
*
Even more redolent than usual.
2268. Philistine - June 14, 1998 - 8:08 PM PDT
Robert
Yep, as I suspected, Charlie Rose is not aired in central TX, but I have the book that the special is based on. Ever see Betty Boop suck off Dick Tracy?
Harper
Don't you start with me!
2269. harper - June 14, 1998 - 9:48 PM PDT
Philistine: Message #2268
I beg your pardon? Did I start with you?
Paradigm:
Since you've obviously seen at least part of the Sistine Chapel restoration up close and personal, what do you think of it? Some people were shocked by the brightness of the colors apparently. I guess it never occurred to them that if you clean 400 years worth of grime off a fresco, it will be *bright*.
2270. Philistine - June 14, 1998 - 9:53 PM PDT
Harper, see your Message #2258 you compared me to Newt Gingrich - surely you understand that thems fightin' words!
I am ready to accept your apology, however.
2271. harper - June 14, 1998 - 10:07 PM PDT
Philistine:
I apologize. I just thought it was a nicer word than "asshole." Didn't mean to give offense. Besides, it appears that the Philistines may have been the original "Atlanteans" -- the people from the Island of Santorini who got away before the volcano & tidal wave. They had a very high level of culture and art.
2272. Philistine - June 14, 1998 - 10:24 PM PDT
Hey, no prob. As my handle suggests (to say nothing of most of my Message #2268) I am actually rather proud of some of my lowbrow proclivities. I don't mind a high level of culture and art, though, which seems to seperate me from that asshole Eft the G.
2273. Paradigm - June 15, 1998 - 6:57 AM PDT
Charlie L an open letter. Listen up pud. Your kid is down at the police station right now reporting on what you did to him last night. Soon you'll know who that is knocking at your door. And it wont'be the Avon lady.
Harper, They did a good job cleaning the ceiling. Beck the Columbia U. art history prof who has raised most of the objections is your typical deaf dumb and bling Ivy League academic whose only talent is for self-promotion.
2274. bubbaette - June 15, 1998 - 7:00 AM PDT
*
2275. adrianne - June 15, 1998 - 7:05 AM PDT
snooooooooooorrrrrrrreeeeeeee
2276. CharlieL - June 15, 1998 - 8:22 AM PDT
*
2277. CharlieL - June 15, 1998 - 8:24 AM PDT
Paradigm, your dog is down at the Humane Society right now, and they are discovering what you did to him last night.
2278. CharlieL - June 15, 1998 - 8:25 AM PDT
The dog would try to tell them, but apparently he is deaf, dumb and bling.
2279. Paradigm - June 15, 1998 - 12:49 PM PDT
Charlie what your mother did to you was unspeakable, although does it to her stepkids all the time. However what you've been accused of doing to the neighborhood children is against the law. Beware.
What bubba dreams of having done to her is well....unmentionable.
2280. bubbaette - June 15, 1998 - 12:50 PM PDT
*
2281. coralreef - June 15, 1998 - 6:38 PM PDT
I just read an article about Chaim Soutine. I get the impression that had antacid pills been invented earlier we might have been deprived of his work.
It was interesting how he benefited so much from benefactors and friends, particularly Modigliani.
This was the Schama piece in the NYer.
2282. RobertDente - June 16, 1998 - 3:01 PM PDT
FYI & FWIW:
This show ends for those of you who might be in the Connecticut area this coming weekend.
2283. RobertDente - June 16, 1998 - 3:08 PM PDT
cr-
Thanks for the tip -- I haven't read it. Comfort and art are often anathema. But for really wonderful quotes go HERE!
2284. coralreef - June 16, 1998 - 5:42 PM PDT
hahaha! Interesting hat choice.
2285. coralreef - June 16, 1998 - 5:55 PM PDT
Congrats on the showing, Robert.
2286. Paradigm - June 17, 1998 - 6:59 PM PDT
GOOD LUCK ROBERT....YER GONNA NEED IT. HAVE YOUEVER CONSIDERED WASHING DISHES FOR A PROFESSION INSTEAD?
2287. coralreef - June 17, 1998 - 7:02 PM PDT
*
2288. RobertDente - June 17, 1998 - 8:20 PM PDT
Thanks cr.
2289. Paradigm - June 18, 1998 - 3:45 AM PDT
coral must that rust bucker anchored above your head drop a load on you. Althought that will not negate Roberts total and complete lack of talent. Bet you don't even sell one Robert. (the one your mother buys for a dollar doesn't count)
2290. bubbaette - June 18, 1998 - 4:52 AM PDT
*
2291. WinstonSmith - June 18, 1998 - 5:04 AM PDT
~
2292. Paradigm - June 18, 1998 - 5:20 AM PDT
bubba you and soft toad aka Winston Smith (how could any male named Winston not change his name?)oughta get together. It would be fun, it wouldn't be exciting, it wouldn't be decent or pleasurable. Sorta like watching pigs die is what I would call it.
2293. bubbaette - June 18, 1998 - 5:21 AM PDT
*
2294. WinstonSmith - June 18, 1998 - 5:36 AM PDT
I pride myself on being more fun than watching pigs die.
Bubbaette, what's with the *s?
2295. CharlieL - June 18, 1998 - 5:40 AM PDT
Winston, the * is a drawing of an anus. It is also a portrait of Paradigm, except he doesn't look that good in real life.
2296. WinstonSmith - June 18, 1998 - 5:43 AM PDT
Charlie,
LOL, I must have steped into the middle of something. Hey I heard that Bubbaette gave niner a bra. Is that true?
2297. bubbaette - June 18, 1998 - 5:46 AM PDT
Winston
Howdy. I originally started posting the * or some other top row symbol as a fray air freshener after * posted, sort of to cover up his name like a cat covers turds in a cat box. Then Chuckles noted the similarity of the * to he whose name should not be spoken. Now, whenever anyone wishes to refer to that particular cat turd, all they need do is type this symbol: *
2298. bubbaette - June 18, 1998 - 5:48 AM PDT
Winston
Yes indeed, he was called both a cunt and a pussy yesterday, and the bra was a symbol of feminist solidarity. I thought he was going to burn it, however, and was not aware that he planned to wear it. I must say that the black lace looks good on him.
2299. WinstonSmith - June 18, 1998 - 5:56 AM PDT
Bubb,
I saw some of the pussy stuff, I thought niner handled it quite well. He never fails to make me laugh.
2300. bubbaette - June 18, 1998 - 6:08 AM PDT
Laugh, yes, but the ingrate didn't even give me a walk-on part in his movie. After all I've done for him!
2301. Paradigm - June 18, 1998 - 11:40 AM PDT
Winston, Bubba will give it to anybody at all. I hear even Charlie is in line for a piece of it. I mean I though I knew low. But with no controling legal authority anything goes.
2302. bubbaette - June 18, 1998 - 11:41 AM PDT
*
*
*
*
*
*
2303. Paradigm - June 18, 1998 - 11:42 AM PDT
Gee all this time I thought "*" stood for the number of bubbies bubba had left. Gosh I was wrong. Now I understand it is twice the number of bubbies she has left. Thanks Charlie... But Oh I have a question for you. Now that Meegan's law is on the books do you go out less at night?
2304. bubbaette - June 18, 1998 - 11:44 AM PDT
*
2305. Paradigm - June 18, 1998 - 12:55 PM PDT
bubbaette = skank
2306. DanDillon - June 18, 1998 - 12:56 PM PDT
*
2307. Paradigm - June 18, 1998 - 1:02 PM PDT
dan's wife = bubbatte = skank
2308. DanDillon - June 18, 1998 - 1:11 PM PDT
*
2309. Paradigm - June 19, 1998 - 4:56 AM PDT
Dan Dillon loves *
2310. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 5:11 AM PDT
Whoa. Call me slow. I thought we were all trying to paint a Seurat on the net or something. You know - ***** **** * and so on.
Ever onward?
2311. Paradigm - June 19, 1998 - 5:14 AM PDT
Lab, Can you believe what passes for dialogue here? It's a shame. It's a crying shame.
2312. JustSayYo - June 19, 1998 - 5:24 AM PDT
Paradigm, I noticed you've used the term dialogue. Who will come to you for dialogue? If all around you harassment is occuring you must step back and see how futile this enterprise is and will become. Back up and take another look at everything.
Again, as in Mc-thread, I am being slightly patronizing and again it is without malice.
Civility is all that will give anyone a chance to create dialogue, do you agree? Think of any future Fraysters who see you and the others harassing each other, they will not stay to find out more and that's our/their loss.
Peace.
2313. Paradigm - June 19, 1998 - 6:11 AM PDT
No pain no gain Just Say. And what makes you think Slate and the Fray have any raders. Most ore just microsofties who are paid to subscribe. Haven't your heard Slate now has upwards of 47 subscribers and climbing.
2314. DanDillon - June 19, 1998 - 6:20 AM PDT
*
2315. JustSayYo - June 19, 1998 - 7:04 AM PDT
Dan...
nothing...
OBLIVION..
NOTHING!
Bubba, you too.
Lab, you too.
Charlie, you too.
PEACE will reign again.
OSTRACISE, NOW!
2316. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 7:48 AM PDT
Well well. Any of you out there with access to today's NYTimes (and some of you know who you are) should by all means read the Weekend section. Lead article is all about the Bonnard retro. opening on Sunday at MOMA. And the two pictures which take up most of the front page are just filled with some of that wonderful acid yellow.
A long article (by Michael Kimmelman), but a couple of quotes (following some comments that Bonnard's reputation took a serious nose dive upon his death in large part due to Picasso's comment that he was a piddler etc.):
"In the 50 years since then, Bonnard's reputation has largely recovered, though I think Americans still don't appreciate him enough. He doesn't fit comfortably into the history of modernism, so we tend to regard him asan anachronism: an Impressionist after Impressionism was dead. Puritanical, we're also a little wary of an art of such paradisiacal beauty, whose complexity and peculiar sadness aren't immediately apparent. The Bonnard restrospective...should change some minds. It's a tendentious show. The stress is not on the early years, when he earned a niche in history as one of the Nabis, who emulated Gauguin, but on his later years. The idea is that Bonnard remained a modernist and didn't just turn into a demode painter of bonbons on the Riviera."
2317. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 8:02 AM PDT
"In fact, no one who has looked seriously at his work can have thought of him as a lightweight hedonist, much less a piddler, though he did paint some bad pictures, because he painted a lot. Never mind; his best work deserves to be ranked with Matisse's and Picasso's, and if you doubt this, spend time in the show's last rooms with the paintings of his wife, Marthe, which are mysterious elegies of love. His self-portraits, as a group, are also unequaled, and that's not forgetting Rembrandt's, van Gogh's, Beckmann's or Picasso's. I dwell on Picasso because his genious seems the antithesis of Bonnard's. The photographer, Cartier-Bresson, who knew them both, once explained Picasso's disdain for Bonnard by saying that Picasso 'had no tenderness'. It's true, Bonnard's art is tender, and it also requires patience bya viewer to grasp its precise emotional pitch. You can appreciate the pictures superficially, because they're ecstatically colored. But unless you look long and hard, you don't really get Bonnard: his rigourous geometry, the way his compositions are locked into place yet everything seems fluid and shimmering, as with Cezanne."
I could go on, but that gives you the drift of the article.
2318. trouserPilot - June 19, 1998 - 8:11 AM PDT
lab, it's on the floor of my foyer as we speak.
2319. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 8:14 AM PDT
as long as foyer isn't a replacement word for birdcage in Arizona.
2320. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 8:15 AM PDT
or worse, a rabbit warren or hutch or whatever they use.
2321. wabbit - June 19, 1998 - 8:20 AM PDT
Oh, now Labj, that was mean, that was just plain mean.
2322. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 8:25 AM PDT
nah, it wasn't and you know it. Lurking today are we?
2323. trouserPilot - June 19, 1998 - 8:28 AM PDT
at the risk of extending this off-topic badinage, no, its resting comfortably, awaiting my midday return....
2324. trouserPilot - June 19, 1998 - 8:29 AM PDT
Say, let's petition FrayVader (or whoever) to change the name of "Fraygrants' Corner" to "Off-topic Badinage" -- much more euphonious. And descriptive.
2325. wabbit - June 19, 1998 - 8:42 AM PDT
Lurking? Moi?
2326. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 8:43 AM PDT
no no no tp no no no. Let it rest.
2327. RobertDente - June 19, 1998 - 8:43 AM PDT
lab- It's uncanny! My clipboard was loaded with the exact same excerpt that you posted...
I also noted in the Art Notes section that MOMA is climbing aboard the meretricious bandwagon wrt to the Bonnard *Show* -- offering a large array of theater, music and/or luncheon combo deals. (Some good deals actually, tP.)
Here's a link to Kimmelman BTW.
wabbit- So is our "taste" for Bonnard somewhat vindicated now, IYO, or will we have to wait for you to see the exhibition?
2328. labarjare - June 19, 1998 - 8:46 AM PDT
oui.
2329. wabbit - June 19, 1998 - 9:02 AM PDT
No, Robert, I still prefer Vuillard to Bonnard. I never said I didn't *like* Bonnard (where are the damn HTML instructions when you want them), except for that one yellow that shows up in his work, the yellow Labj will never let me forget describing as "acidic." Gauguin has a green that I dislike almost as much. Oh well.
2330. RobertDente - June 19, 1998 - 9:07 AM PDT
Did anyone see The Alexander Calder/American Masters program this past week? It was superb. I hope that they rerun it on your local PBS affiliates.
A reporter stuck a microphone in Calder's huge face and asked, "Mr. Calder, how do you know when a work of art is finished?" After a pause and a kind of dumb, intoxicated look upwards, Calder sluggishly replied, "When it's dinnertime!"
The film really captures the childlike abandon of the man. Try not to miss it.
2331. RobertDente - June 19, 1998 - 9:12 AM PDT
wab- Granted. But you did, if I remember correctly, cast some tonal aspersions wrt to our taste for said artist. (Or am I being insecure and delusional... yet again?)
(Yes I know, you don't have a TV.)
2332. wabbit - June 19, 1998 - 10:03 AM PDT
Gee, Robert, I didn't *mean* to cast aspersions, you know me better than that....
[g]
[that means gravity, right?]
2333. RobertDente - June 23, 1998 - 7:53 AM PDT
(Because The Arts Tread is once again at the bottom of the heap!)
"By a curious confusion, many modern critics have passed from the proposition that a masterpiece may be unpopular to the other proposition that unless it is unpopular it cannot be a masterpiece."
Who said it?
2334. CoralReef - June 23, 1998 - 10:57 AM PDT
Robert Hughes?
2335. RobertDente - June 23, 1998 - 1:55 PM PDT
CR- No, but I'm sure that he would agree with it! Hughes just reviewed and somewhat panned the Californian conceptualist Charles Ray by calling him a one hit artist (I don't think he said a one materpiece artist) like Meret Oppenheim (The fur- lined teacup in MOMA).
[I wonder if Seguine would agree with the quote?]
2336. KurtMondaugen - June 26, 1998 - 12:05 PM PDT
Viennese Aktionist/filmaker Kurt Kren died on Tuesday at the age of 69. His work, and the work of the Aktionist group, was most recently featured in two simultaneous NY gallery shows, and in the massive "Out of Actions" show in LA. His films were responsible for bringing the one-time 'events' of Aktionists Hermann Nitsch, Gunter Brus, Otto Meuhl, etc., to an international public, and his own event pieces were enthusiastic examples of the group's ideals. Another one that will be missed.
2337. glendajean - June 29, 1998 - 3:30 PM PDT
I saw the "Rothko" exhibit at the National Gallery this weekend.
I found his very early work interesting since I didn't know that he started out doing representation. There are a couple of NYC subway station paintings that were actually humorous, a feeling I don't associate with him.
I've seen the Rothko Chapel panels in Houston on several occasions, which for me arouses a different emotion than the one Rothko envisioned. Knowing that he died fairly soon after the Chapel paintings, I always assumed that his paintings got darker and darker.
Seeing them in the quantity of the NG exhibit puts them in a different light.
In the 40s and 50s paintings the colors are brilliant and seductive, wash upon wash. Of course, there is always a progression in what he painted. And there are pastel colors that he did after the Chapel paintings which are not dark at all. The other thing that I enjoyed was getting to see a couple of the Four Seasons restaurant paintings and the studies for them, something I've read about but never seen before.
2338. RobertDente - June 30, 1998 - 1:48 PM PDT
glendaj- Thanks.
wabbit- The Benfey review of Bonnard's MOMA show wasn't bad, IMO. Whadyatink?
2339. labarjare - June 30, 1998 - 6:44 PM PDT
glendajean - my wife and I saw the Rothko show at the National Gallery recently as well and, like you, were unfamiliar with his early work before then.
We also had not seen any of his last works - the ones where the tripartite horizontal bars had become only two, more or less the same sizes and with crisp delineations between them, and with the pure white borders of about an inch so. We found them to be incredibly lifeless and sterile, even though the shadings of color within each bar was, more or less, similar to his work from the 50s on. It may very well be that knowing that he committed suicide shortly after doing the last works added to the feeling of lifelessness, but I suspect that most people would feel the same even without knowing of the suicide.
BTW - did you meander over to the Collectors' Cabinet show in the West Building? A collection of art and what I will characterize as high grade collectible objects d'art which were in vogue in middle class Dutch houses in the 17th century. Some great little paintings and a lot of the objects were terrific as well. What made the whole thing very enjoyable, however, was the idea (well presented) that all of this had been enjoyed by real people in a distinct and identifiable context (helped by several paintings wich were contemporary to the period.)
2340. labarjare - June 30, 1998 - 6:48 PM PDT
Also - if anyone is going to be in Washington over the summer, by all means get over to the Phillips Collection and take in the Diebenkorn retro. (Well, it goes on to San Francisco if you can't make it here.)
We also were unfamiliar with his last works (the ones where playing cards or symbols used on same are prominent features). I wouldn't exactly call them sterile but they certainly seemed unduly composed and without much emotional content.
The only drawback of the Diebenkorn show is that they have usurped the Rothko room (one of which is at the Natl. Gallery and the other three in summer storage).
2341. glendajean - June 30, 1998 - 7:07 PM PDT
labarjare
My partner and I saw the Rothko, Calder and Manet/Monet and the Gare Saint-Lazare exhibits in the East Gallery and the Degas at the Races exhibit in the West Gallery.
re: Rothko -- From what I've read about him, he had a highly developed formal sense of what he was doing with his painting. He rejected that he was a colorist, but rather was intent on expressing ideas and emotions in his painting.
Yet, for me, it is the colors, vivid and often unusually paired boxes of color, that fascinate the most on those large canvasses. He used a special process to make those washes and was particular about each piece.
2342. labarjare - June 30, 1998 - 7:25 PM PDT
Yes, he was all of that. But he also frequently used very cheap paints (like Woolworth's) and a number of his canvasses have sort of turned to a mud color. Ask Harvard. They've got a few that they now only show once every five years or so. A direct commission. When Harvard complained (in its inimitably proper Boston way), Rothko said - so what. Or words to that effect.
The Degas at the Races turned out to be a lot more interesting than I had thought it would be. Among other things, two of the fallen jockey paintings were up together with a number of studies. We also liked the descriptions of how his sculptures were put together. I find his horses a lot more interesting than his dancers. How about those three small ones displayed in one case. I also really enjoyed the idea that he used things like used wine bottle corks to stuff his wax sculptures. Good decision on his family's part to make bronzes out of everything.
I actually saw everything you did as well (it was a terrific long day, part of which was waiting for fairhaired to arrive from the conference she was attending.)
2343. labarjare - June 30, 1998 - 7:32 PM PDT
I am saddened that Paradigm didn't make it again - there is that, unfortunately very large and vital, part of him that is both repugnant and, to me, inexplicable. Unfortunately it always seemed to overshadow the sense of humor and terrific way with a phrase that he had.
At any rate, I was looking forward to bringing to Parabull's attention the little but very nice collections of drawings now up at the Natl. Gallery. Including a Seurat (but not one with all the *****). And, and this is the part that Parabull would have gagged over, they are in THE ARMAND HAMMER GALLERY.
Now - when the history of First Class All Around Shits of the 20th Century is written - Armand will be waaaaaay up there.
Call me biased, but I refuse to go to that museum named for him that Occidental Petroleum supports.
2344. glendajean - June 30, 1998 - 7:43 PM PDT
I agree about the fallen rider paintings and the horse sculptures. The most interesting thing about the sculptures to me were the x-ray pictures of the wire inside his original, and the information how he used the sculptures to see the horses better for his paintings.
Horses don't do a lot for me in paintings, but after that exhibit I've more aware of them in art. Just today, I passed some store window in downtown DC and there were several paintings of horses.
I also thought it was fun that he felt he never learned to paint their motion until he had looked at photographs of them moving. As I was walking today watching cars pass by, I thought about how hard it would be to paint hubcaps twirling round and round in motion.
I really only saw the Manet part of the Gare Saint-Lazare exhibit. My favorite was the tall portrait of the women with the parrot (the woman who was his favorite model) I think she was dressed as a street singer. Too many tourists in the Monet galleries to see the paintings.
2345. labarjare - June 30, 1998 - 7:54 PM PDT
Yes, I agree that the Manet/Monet space was claustrophobic. Not helped by the fact that a most regal doyenne was being wheelchaired around by her faithful attendant while I was there, impervious to the crowds in front of them, and both loudly exclaiming to one another about what was being seen (one of them was deaf I would say - wanna bet which one?).
At any rate, it was at that point that I went over to the West building where the Homers and the Eakins were just.....hanging there, more or less in empty galleries.
God (if there were one) bless Paul Mellon and his (except for Richard Mellon Scaife of course.)
2346. glendajean - June 30, 1998 - 8:05 PM PDT
lab
Look at this way. Armand finally died. Some of his large gifts at the end bounced, didn't they. Seems like I read somewhere that his name had to be removed.
2347. glendajean - June 30, 1998 - 8:14 PM PDT
Of course, a friend once told me that Andrew Mellon gave his collection to create the NG because he was avoiding tax problems with the government. I have no idea if that's true.
Btw, I had no idea that Rothko used cheap paints. Fun piece of information. Take away those colors, and you don't have much to look at. I read this description of how he made the paint for the Rothko Chapel panels -- of course, he had assistants, I think, to help him.
Placement, too, was a big deal to him. He rigged the Chapel canvases in his NYC studio, moving and fussing and changing. Of course, I don't think it helped that the design (and the architect) of the Chapel kept changing.
Seems like he did the same thing for the Seagram Bldg, Four Seasons paintings, which of course, never made it to their intended designation.