Art Thread

1949. wabbit - May 2, 1998 - 6:33 AM PDT
senecio and turntable,

The internet holds many, many secrets. . .in fairness, I have read "The Culture Industry" before, though not recently, and was quite pleased to find it on the web. I wouldn't have wanted, and right now wouldn't have time, to type the whole thing out and link to it.

1950. wabbit - May 2, 1998 - 7:00 AM PDT
turntable,

Intentional fallacy in visual art is a very different animal from intentional fallacy in literature, and is undergoing some serious reevaluation as it applies (or doesn't) to contemporary art.

1951. KurtMondaugen - May 2, 1998 - 4:02 PM PDT
turntable:

Maiguascha is an Ecuadorian composer who previously had one piece featured on volume 5 of Wergo's Computer Music Currents series. This ZKM release (with the truly terrifying title "Reading Castaneda") is a collection of recordings from 1985 to 1992 of bowed metal objects processed through a computer, with some instrumentation (flute, cello) thrown in for good measure. It casts a palpable, solitary, contemplative, intoxicated at 4am kind of haze, (not dissimilar to Wergo's numerous Michael Vetter releases) and is never grating or overwhelming (or dull). The Oblisch piece is a reworked version of a 48 hour German radio broadcast from 1993, thoughtfully compressed into the more convenient compact disc format. It's basically tiny, isolated orchestral sounds mixed and edited on a computer in some very interesting and complex ways (kind of like Helmut Lachenmann's experiments in orchestral concrete, though somehow more organic). Really good stuff that would fit perfectly in with Wergo's Ars Acustica series. I'm not exactly sure what the general theme to this ZKM series is supposed to be just yet, but they're off to an invigorating start.

1952. PseudoErasmus - May 2, 1998 - 4:24 PM PDT
Wabbot (Message #1950)

"Intentional fallacy in visual art is a very different animal from intentional fallacy in literature..."

Please elaborate. And why ought it be a different animal? Seguine, DaveRoll (a painter) and I had an exchange on this very subject right here in this thread, oh, about 1200 posts ago.

1953. PseudoErasmus - May 2, 1998 - 4:24 PM PDT
Wabbit....

1954. wabbit - May 2, 1998 - 9:49 PM PDT
PE,

Sure, but it will have to wait til next week sometime. Finals, etc.

I'm sorry to have missed the original discussion, I do so hate redundancy. If the posts are available anywhere, I'd like to read them sometime.

1955. CalGal - May 2, 1998 - 9:52 PM PDT
Hey, Wabbit.

I just had this bizarre thing happen to me. I went over to the International thread, for reasons that escape me--oh, yes, Cellar had posted there and I was curious--and I noticed that Pseudo had a bunch of links to international papers, saying that the average Fraygrant claiming ignorance of foreign affairs was just lazy. Probably true. But I like papers and so I linked to them to bookmark and read them. I'm *supposed* to be working (sigh) so I only took time to read an editorial in the Japan Times. Which was on some landscape artist named Hokusai on the 150th anniversary of his birth or death and he's apparently very popular not only in Japan but elsewhere and, of course, I've never heard of him.

So I do a search and find his stuff, hoping desperately I'll go OH! That painting. I know *that*! But alas, I've never seen his work before, thereby proving, yet again, that I'm largely clueless.

Anyway. I thought you'd find that story amusing. On the bright side--I like his stuff. Which probably means it's kitschy.

Thank you very much for the Greenberg article. I enjoyed it. Haven't finished up on the other stuff you've linked to because I'm *supposed* to be working, dammit!

1956. trouserpilot - May 4, 1998 - 11:21 AM PDT
feel free to disregard any non-classic or non-modern...

New acquisitions
• Antonio Carlos Jobim "Wave" (1967) ... upgrade from vinyl to cd
• Sonny Rollins "Tenor Madness" (1956)
• Horace Silver "Silver's Serenade" (1963)
• Dinah Washington "What a Diff'rence a Day Makes!" (1959)
• Chicago Mass Choir "Hold On, Don't Give Up" (1996)
• James Taylor "Hourglass" (1997)
• Sun Ra and his Solar Arkestra/Myth Science Arkestra "Visits Planet Earth"/"Interstellar Low Ways" (1958/1960)
• K. Penderecki "Metamorphoses"--Concerto for violin and orchestra no. 2; B. Bartók Sonata for violin and piano no. 2 (1997)
• Archie Shepp "Mama Too Tight" (1966)

the complete list

1957. TheDiva - May 4, 1998 - 11:37 AM PDT
TP

*sigh*

At this rate, I'll never catch up.....what an incredible collection.

I picked up a few interesting CDs recently:

Duke Ellington with Max Roach and Charles Mingus - "Money Jungle"

Coleman Hawkins - Greatest Hits (w/Fletcher Henderson, Red Allen, and his own orchestra, among others)

Count Basie - Complete Recordings on Capitol

1958. AzureNW - May 4, 1998 - 1:18 PM PDT

KurtMondaugen -

Is there really a style recognized as a "Northwest school" of art? That classification was used in a news story about Northwest artist Guy Anderson in describing his work as exemplary of the Northwest school. I've seen some of his oil paintings in LaConner. The elements of his work that are described as specifically Northwest are the incorporation of Northwest Coast Indian formline designs and techniques of placing images within images to create a visual rythmn.

1959. Philistine - May 4, 1998 - 3:01 PM PDT
Guess I'll fess up to throwing away my hard earned money on the following... and if you think that this music isn't 'art' because it is pop or modern, I don't care.

The Supremes - Anthology (double CD) Motown Reissue, 1992
Whoridaz - Whoridin' (CD) Loud Records, 1997

1960. trouserpilot - May 4, 1998 - 3:02 PM PDT
Some things you never get used to.

1961. Philistine - May 4, 1998 - 3:06 PM PDT
Like Cecil Taylor's yodeling?

1962. trouserpilot - May 4, 1998 - 3:08 PM PDT
I like it fine.

#1960 is the title of one of my favorite tracks on that Supremes anthology.

1963. trouserpilot - May 4, 1998 - 3:10 PM PDT
I think it starts off with castanets.

1964. Philistine - May 4, 1998 - 3:15 PM PDT
I'll be certain to look for it. Now Diana Ross and Cecil Taylor doing a vocal duet...

THAT'S what I call art!

1965. trouserpilot - May 4, 1998 - 3:19 PM PDT
That's what I call modern!

1966. labarjare - May 5, 1998 - 2:05 PM PDT
There is a ten minute or so story about/interview with Bill Viola and his retrospective (currently at the Whitney) on All Things Considered today - at the end of the hour segment just ended. Listen and (to borrow a phrase from my friend Mondaugen) enjoy. The story closes with the info. that the retrospective moves from here to Amsterdam, Frankfurt, San Franciso and then Chicago.

1967. DanDillon - May 5, 1998 - 3:47 PM PDT
(In case you're a fan and have been on a boat with GreenPeace too long.)

You all likely know this already, but Tori Amos has a new one due out tomorrow.

1968. CoralReef - May 5, 1998 - 4:04 PM PDT
Dan, Phil and Mr Whipple:

If you really want Music back so badly you should follow the time-tested method of merely have a discussion in suggestions until a new thread is created to throw you out.

1969. trouserPilot - May 5, 1998 - 4:11 PM PDT
I'm hoping against hope that I'm Mr Whipple, but I fear not.

1970. KurtMondaugen - May 7, 1998 - 11:20 PM PDT
Azure:

If there is, in fact, a bona fide "Northwest School", then it's one I'm unfamiliar with (outside of Cornish, of course, but I don't think that's what you mean by 'school'). It seems to me, from what I know from current artists in Seattle and Portland, at least, that there is an incredible diversity among the relatively small confines of the NW (where everyone pretty much knows everyone else, much like Mayberry or what have), and for that matter always has been....look at the NW's most prominent (read: well-known) artistic figures of the last few years: M. Graves, M. Cunningham, J. Cage, D. Chihuily, K. G, T. Robbins, K. Cobain, S. Alexie, M. Morris. And the soon-to-be well known: F. Undine, J. Miller, E. Kang, C. Asplund, etc. etc. For better or worse, although people involved in the arts here (like anywhere, I'd hope) tend to help each other out, there's not much common ground between any of these figures' personal aesthetes, and thank god for that, IMO. Of course, I'm not familiar with Guy Anderson, either, so I could be completely wrong

1971. KurtMondaugen - May 8, 1998 - 11:47 AM PDT
Azure:

How odd...last night I post that I'm unfamiliar w/ Anderson. Today, while flipping through the paper I stumble across his obituary. The obit's writer mentions what he calls a Northwest School, which apparently consisted of Anderson, Mark Tobey, Morris Graves (who I mentioned above) and Kenneth Callahan, and not only operated outisde of academe, but mostly outside the country (go figure). The writer also talks at length about Anderson's "somber palette and ponderously cosmic themes", and also talks about bottling and marketing the "distinct mystic odor" or Anderson's paintings, neither of which sounds particularly inviting.

1972. AzureNW - May 8, 1998 - 12:42 PM PDT


KurtMondaugen -

I've seen a Northwest School mentioned in Seattle newspapers several times, and also in an obituary for Guy Anderson that was published last weekend. I wondered if the classification was more than the creation of local journalists. I'm curious about what the rest of the world might see as a typically Nortwest style of painting. A Northwest School which operates mostly outside the country is not exactly what I expected. Those who value things that are typically Northwest tend to live in the Northwest, in my experience.

The couple of G. Anderson paintings I've seen did employ dark colors with darker or black outlined images of distress that I would describe as somber. I found his work interesting, but not moving. Maybe some of the "distinct mystic odor" that was being bottled and marketed went over my head.

1973. KurtMondaugen - May 8, 1998 - 12:56 PM PDT
"I'm curious about what the rest of the world might see as a typically
Nortwest style of painting."

Well, not too long ago a duo of Eastern European artists were in town interviewing a large number of people on what they would most like to see in a painting, after which they set to work on creating the Seattle citizen's ideal work, the result of which hung in the Henry for a period of time. It was predictably (and hilariously) ghastly.

1974. AzureNW - May 8, 1998 - 1:38 PM PDT

KurtMondaugen -

Ew. It's hard to imagine what "the Seattle citizen's ideal work" would look like. I would guess it was big and bright, right?

I'm not as interested in what a typical citizen or artist of the Northwest likes in paintings as I am in understanding what would most perfectly represent our specifically Northwest time and place in painting. One of my goals is to study art while I complete a masters degree in math education. Ultimately, I plan to paint a series of Nortwest "landscapes" of my own, while I teach first year calculus and pre-calculus algebra and geometry on Indian reservations around the state. I hope to produce a few good abstract paintings and four or five Native American natural scientists. (I call that my plan for becomming a beautiful old woman.)

1975. KurtMondaugen - May 8, 1998 - 1:46 PM PDT
"I'm not as interested in what a typical citizen or artist of the Northwest likes in paintings as I am in understanding what would most perfectly represent our specifically Northwest time and place in painting."

Tough job, and in accordance with my Message #1970, I really don't think it can be done at this point. Keep me posted on what you come up with, though.

1976. KurtMondaugen - May 8, 1998 - 7:52 PM PDT
note to labarjare:

Good news. Now you don't have to go all the way to Vienna to roll around in vats of cow guts, play the tuba, etc. The Baron Boissante gallery in your city is currently displaying a fairly comprehensive Viennese Aktionism show, featuring photographs and films by Hermann Nitsch and the rest of the crew: Guenter Brus, Otto Muehl, Rudolf Schwarzkogler and Kurt Kren (apparently the Gat gallery is simultaneously showing films and photographs of Schwarzkogler and Kren). Since the LA "Out of Actions" show is closing this week, it's my guess that this is the closest you'll get for the time being without spending a lot of money to get your hands dirty.

1977. KurtMondaugen - May 8, 1998 - 7:56 PM PDT
oh, and if you make it to the Noguchi show at PW, lemme know how it goes.

1978. wabbit - May 9, 1998 - 8:14 AM PDT
Wow, cow guts in midtown. Cool.

re: Message #1973, sounds like a Komar and Melamid project. Was it?

1979. wabbit - May 9, 1998 - 8:15 AM PDT
Azure and Kurt,

The term "Northwest School" isn't in wide use (yet). I'd say Morris Graves and Mark Tobey are the best known Northwest painters, and Dale Chihuly's glasswork is well known also. Kurt is right about the diversity among artists from the Northwest, though outside the region I think you would find that, in general, Pacific Northwest Native American art is what leaps to mind.

1980. wabbit - May 9, 1998 - 8:17 AM PDT
CalGal,

You probably do know at least a few of Hokusai's images, "The Great Wave Off Kanagawa" is fairly ubiquitous. He was a Ukiyo-e printmaker, known primarily for his woodblock prints. He also did some very nice erotica of pearl divers and octopuses.

1981. KurtMondaugen - May 9, 1998 - 12:06 PM PDT
wabbit:

re Message #1978
Yes, they're the ones...Russians-cum-NY Superstars. Couldn't remember their names yesterday, thanks.

1982. trouserPilot - May 9, 1998 - 3:32 PM PDT
"Good news. Now you don't have to go all the way to Vienna to roll around in vats of cow guts, play the tuba, etc."

Now, with the American Express® Platinum Plus™ card, you can enjoy this in the privacy of your own living room!

1983. JoeZan - May 9, 1998 - 8:59 PM PDT
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY TO ALL FRAY MOTHERS!!!

1984. IrvingSnodgrass - May 13, 1998 - 5:32 AM PDT
I don't often post in this thread, although I've long had an interest in art. I also have a high tolerance for what may be termed as art, and appreciate a great variety of styles and schools of art.

That said, I just can't see what makes this art. It is from the current Slate article on Mark Rothko. What am I missing here? Is this a misprint or simply a plain black canvas?

1985. JadeGold - May 13, 1998 - 5:46 AM PDT
Irv,

Try this site for an NPR report on Rothko.

Mark Rothko

1986. norwoodr - May 13, 1998 - 5:48 AM PDT
I remember my aunt taking me to the Metropolotin Museum of Art in NYC when I was about twenty, and only finding two pictures to like. One was a picture by Dali of a doctor unwraping a woman dressed only in festive ribbons. The other was White on White.

I went back in my forties, and found nothing to like at all. The only thing I remember is a giant papier-mache thumb. I also toured SoHo, and found only one painting I liked. It was a realistic painting of an artist's easle, life size, with two pair of skimpy underware, one male, one female, draped across it.

Poetry is dead, too, but that's another thread.

www.io.com/~norwoodr

1987. PamIAm - May 13, 1998 - 6:06 AM PDT
Irving, Message #1984:
It sure looks plain black to me, but then it does seem to have the distinction of being the 4th. in a series.

1988. RobertDente - May 13, 1998 - 11:32 AM PDT
Irv-

If I took a picture of your house at night from a helicopter, showed it to a stranger and said, "This is a friend's place; do you like it?"...what do you think his impression might be of you and your abode? Rothko was a highly emotional and intensely neurotic painter who tried to distill his romantic experience of nature into very large areas of flat color. Even weirder was the fact that he, more often than not, accomplished his task. He wanted the viewer to be enveloped by the silence and color of his work in a meditative, dimly lit atmosphere. The example that you linked to was painted in dark shades that can't come close to being discernable on the web--let alone on an uncalibrated monitor. It was one of many paintings that augured his suicide. In practical terms his efforts were meaningless, I suppose. Yet I've seen people come to to tears over them and fork up millions to have one--go figure?

"His heart was his rival, in the art of survival ..."

(Hi Pam-o :)

1989. IrvingSnodgrass - May 13, 1998 - 11:50 AM PDT
Robert:
I was wondering about that. I think it was probably a very poor choice for Slate to include with their article. I am aware that Rothko's art needs to be experienced up close and personal, and a few jpegs can't really give a feel for it. The NPR link Jade provided illustrates this very well, in fact.

I'm glad it isn't just a slab of black. Your answer is a good one. Thanks!

1990. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 1:11 PM PDT
Dente

"Rothko was a highly emotional and intensely neurotic painter who tried to distill his romantic experience of nature into very large areas of flat color. Even weirder was the fact that he, more often than not, accomplished his task."

Well, it must have been a very private romantic experience, because he certainly didn't accomplish his task. In fact, absolutely no one could know anything about this romantic experience while looking at his paintings, without the sort of editorial and critical gloss you've appended. As Tom Wolfe once said, non-representational painting is usually a "reduction to literature".

1991. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 1:17 PM PDT
One of these days, I'm going to hire some art history student to construct an index of "non-representation" for paintings. Then, I'll check on the correlation between the index and the number of words of critical commentary which fester around any given painting. Expected finding: the volume of critical commentary swells exponentially as the subject of the painting becomes less and less identifiable.

[Yes, I'm not saying that non-representational painting is bad; just that there is more bullshit attached to such paintings than others.]

1992. RobertDente - May 13, 1998 - 2:59 PM PDT
Irv- Rothko had the courage to make art for himself first and the hell with tradition. He inspired a lot of people to see things more directly and simply within limits.

P.E. If I filled a pail with water at Niagara Falls and told someone (whom had never been to the falls) that the bucket was the same as the experience of being there, you'd think I was nuts. If Irving has eaten a kind of mango that I've never had, do you think he'd be able to provide me with the equivalent experience with words?

Tom Wolfe is an amusingly provocative mountebank who has reinforced his prejudices and those of countless other people who like what they know and not vice versa.

Artists see history, economics, science, literature and probably every other activity of humanity as merely contemporary mythology. They decide that the pursuit of beauty is just as nonsensical and arbitrary as any other activity.

I should say however, that I don't disagree with you about the many charlatans and hangers-on in the art world. Nor can I fault your cynicism, but it doesn't mean that there aren't genuine artistic visionaries out there or that Rothko hasn't made a significant contribution to visual history. But there is safety in derision!

1993. RobertDente - May 13, 1998 - 7:43 PM PDT

FWIW, there are some new additions to my upcoming exhibition.

1994. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 7:54 PM PDT
Dente (Message #1992)

"Rothko had the courage to make art for himself first and the hell with tradition."

Only cranks completely trash tradition.

"If I filled a pail with water at Niagara Falls and told someone (whom had never been to the falls) that the bucket was the same as the experience of being there, you'd think I was nuts."

No, just dumb.

"If Irving has eaten a kind of mango that I've never had, do you think he'd be able to provide me with the equivalent experience with words?"

No, not an "equivalent", but a unique registration of his experience.

"Artists see history, economics, science, literature and probably every other activity of humanity as merely contemporary mythology."

Then they're ill-educated oafs.

"They decide that the pursuit of beauty is just as nonsensical and arbitrary as any other activity."

I'm sure they don't decide that, precisely because the pursuit of beauty isn't nonsensical or arbitrary.

"Nor can I fault your cynicism, but it doesn't mean that there aren't genuine artistic visionaries out there or that Rothko hasn't made a significant contribution to visual history. But there is safety in derision!"

• I didn't say there weren't "genuine artistic visionaries out there";
• I don't see what Rothko has contributed;
• there are lots of things to praise.

1995. RobertDente - May 13, 1998 - 8:05 PM PDT
Empty Your Cup

A famous Zen story concerns Nanin, a Japanese master. A university professor once visited him to inquire about Zen. Nanin served the man tea, pouring his visitor's cup full and continued pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he could no longer restrain himself. "It is full to overflowing. No more will go in!" he said. Nanin replied, "Like this cup, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

1996. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 8:23 PM PDT
That's just way over my head.

1997. Seguine - May 13, 1998 - 8:30 PM PDT
"Well, it must have been a very private romantic experience, because he certainly didn't accomplish his task."

That is a matter of opinion. Also, it's possible you are too young to have seen a Rothko--I don't mean that as a slight; the paintings apparently are deteriorating rapidly. What Rothko painted literally isn't there any more.

Actually, I think Dente is right about the romanticism. And no, recognizing it in Rothko's work doesn't require the verbal innoculation necessary to 'get' most pomo posturings. (Not anything close to it at any rate.)

The revered modernist whose mature work I think was an aesthetic non-event is...Piet Mondrian. (I used to enjoy driving a sculptor colleague crazy by remarking, out loud, that Mondrian was art-historically significant but not artistically significant. Mondrian afficionados may now descend on me like a pack of rabid dogs. I will wait semi-quiescently.) But his representational work leading up to the reductive/minimal stuff was beautiful.

1998. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 8:33 PM PDT
"I used to enjoy driving a sculptor colleague crazy by remarking, out loud, that Mondrian was art-historically significant but not artistically significant."

Exactly. A wise man once said, "Importance isn't important".

"But his representational work leading up to the reductive/minimal stuff was beautiful."

You mean like those trees?

1999. Seguine - May 13, 1998 - 8:45 PM PDT
Yes, I do mean like those trees. Perfectly good expressionism.

2000. phillipdavid - May 13, 1998 - 9:19 PM PDT
Do either of you have a link to those trees?

2001. wabbit - May 13, 1998 - 9:22 PM PDT
Seguine,

I taught a class on Mondrian recently and I couldn't agree with you more. All those theosophical exercises, sheesh. He has never convinced me that his art represented his ideas. However, I would love to see a film of him dancing.

2002. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 9:25 PM PDT
Hey, I think Mondrian's (non-representational) paintings work best as shower curtains.

2003. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 9:26 PM PDT
Of course, I'm a vulgarian when it comes to painting and sculpture, but very few non-reppers have ever convinced me that their "ideas" (inasmuch as they have any) are enshrined & enacted in their works.

2004. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 9:27 PM PDT
Wabbit, chérie, I have those posts per your query, somewhere, but I must conduct a major archaeological operation on my files in order to find them.

2005. AzureNW - May 13, 1998 - 9:31 PM PDT

vulgarians used to be yugoslavians, weren't they?

2006. wabbit - May 13, 1998 - 9:32 PM PDT
Agreed, but make some of the squares clear, please, to add a little interest.

I have to say when I went to the Mondrian retrospective a couple years ago, I went ballistic in one of the galleries. A comment on one of the wall placards read, "Mondrian discovers the importance of the double line." I lost my shit. No wonder people hate art critics and historians.

2007. CalGal - May 13, 1998 - 9:34 PM PDT
Wabbit,

Yes, I saw that painting. It will probably make you laugh when I tell you that it reminded me of that book I read when I was a kid about the little Japanese boy who had to swallow a tidal wave in order for the town to escape.

Robert--thanks for that explanation of Rothko; Jade, thanks for the link.

2008. PseudoErasmus - May 13, 1998 - 9:34 PM PDT
Vulgarians were an early sect of Christianity who went searching for Mary's hymen. Of course, the Hymenitics later coopted them and made the hymen part of the Trinity.

2009. wabbit - May 13, 1998 - 9:36 PM PDT
PD,

Try this one.

2010. AzureNW - May 13, 1998 - 9:36 PM PDT

Oh, yes, I've heard of the vulgarian operas!

2011. wabbit - May 13, 1998 - 10:03 PM PDT
PE,

Merci, I appreciate your efforts regarding the posts. I haven't forgotten the discussion, just finishing up school things this week. Will you be able to carry on posting from across the pond?

btw, combien le travail paye-t-il?

2012. Seguine - May 14, 1998 - 10:17 AM PDT
Wab, PE,

On 45th St. in Philadelphia, between Pine and Spruce, is a perfectly lovely garage door painted as a Mondrian. PE has probably seen it.

I've made a unilateral decision. Henceforth, Wabbit and I are to be loosely allied on matters pertaining to visual representation. That's because

a. she and I evidently share an appreciation of the So-What factor in art; and

b. she very cleverly prefers Vuillard to Bonnard.

2013. Seguine - May 14, 1998 - 10:32 AM PDT
"Vulgarians were an early sect of Christianity who went searching for Mary's hymen. Of course, the Hymenitics later coopted them and made the hymen part of the Trinity."

Although there were similarities between the groups, the Hymenitics should not be confused with the Hermeneutics, a 16th century sect of Spanish Kabbalist converts to Christianity who believed there exists a holy hidden hymen in all natural phenomena. Not much is known about the Hermeneutics; they seem to have vanished from history.

2014. labarjare - May 14, 1998 - 1:36 PM PDT
Just got caught up here. A few random thoughts.

Irv - there is a little room at the Whitney (which I *think* is there permanently - I saw it when there for the Viola show but I don't get there often enough to say) that has four of the black series of paintings of Ad Reinhardt on display, on two adjacent walls. One has slight tones of red, another of blue, one has very subtle squares with different hues. It is exhilerating to stand there and let it all come together after one's first impression that it is just black paint on canvas. BTW - no way they would reproduce well on online, any more than that Rothko did.

PsE - next time in DC, take in the Rothko gallery at the Philips Collection which has four "smallish" Rothkos. Then tell me that you still think Rothko contributed nothing.

Kurt - damn. I was just getting excited about getting to Vienna. I will indeed saunter up to that gallery. And to the PW. (umm, I must sheepishly admit that I missed the Agnes Martin show.)

2015. JadeGold - May 14, 1998 - 1:43 PM PDT
Lab;

Good point re the Philips collection. Also check out the Rothko at the National Gallery of Art.

2016. Blaise - May 14, 1998 - 4:07 PM PDT
I understand what Rothko is saying...

ON ROTHKO

Lost in the sea's hush again, the fog's passage of waters,
I face the wind and let the cold burn my hands
as if that were enough to wake the dreamer.

The Ferry moves out into the last thread of light
where the bay's gulls shout with hunger.
It leans against the hour,
black as the moon,
a heron, arcing her wings downward.

I imagine you there, crossing the bridge,
cautious, or perhaps indifferent?
And me—staring back into your silence,
the hieroglyph of blues muffled into greys and then black,
like the Rothko painting

that seems to take you somewhere between two worlds.

If it were possible,
I would glide through the darkening night
as easily as that boat, voiceless
in the mist

near the shore. And still,
I would look for some sign from you…

The lighthouse. The harbor. The Ferry,
falling inside the patch of white, the rock and fog.

2017. AzureNW - May 14, 1998 - 4:28 PM PDT

Blaise -

Does your poem refer to a particular Rothko painting?

2018. Blaise - May 14, 1998 - 4:57 PM PDT
Yes: Violet, Black, Orange, Yellow on Red and White.

2019. AzureNW - May 14, 1998 - 5:01 PM PDT

thanks.

2020. Blaise - May 14, 1998 - 5:05 PM PDT
Sure. There are no theories for Rothko. One must simply enter into his silence...

2021. WinstonSmith - May 14, 1998 - 5:10 PM PDT
Seguine, Re: 2013

I think PE may be confusing the Vulgarians with the Vulvarians. The Vulvarians were an obscure sect of Christian monks who created some of the most beautifully detailed illuminated manuscripts ever produced. These manuscripts are unique in that they were written on tiny dried membranes which proved to be quite fragile. Of the manuscripts produced by the Vulvarians, very few remain intact.

2022. WinstonSmith - May 14, 1998 - 5:16 PM PDT
FWIW, I like Rothko. I like the way his paintings make me feel.

2023. AzureNW - May 14, 1998 - 5:49 PM PDT

WinstonSmith -

Many of Rothkos paintings feel leaden and obstructed to me. I can understand why Blaise used silence as a metaphor. His paintings have filtered out too much of the texture of the landscape for me. There is nothing left alive and moving, just color and position where something alive might have been. Kind of a colorful motionless ghost.

Can you describe how his paintings make you feel?

2024. WinstonSmith - May 14, 1998 - 6:43 PM PDT
Azure, Re: 2023,

There is something about color and the juxtaposition of one color with another that can elicit an emotional response from me. For this reason, I am very attracted to abstract art.

As for Rothko, his various pictures elicit different responses in me. One of my favorites is "Red on Maroon" which makes me feel both peaceful and stimulated. I know these emotions seem somewhat contradictory but that is how I feel and perhaps the novelty of the combination is what captivates me.

BTW, I only know a little about art and am hoping to learn more in this thread.

2025. AzureNW - May 14, 1998 - 7:03 PM PDT

WinstonSmith -

I'm learning about art, too. Do we need to know more about painting than why we like what we like?

I couldn't find the Red on Maroon Rothko painting you mention on the web. Would a large painting of a rectagular red area with a maroon strip horizontally positioned across the bottom be a good guess?

Rothko's popularity indicates there are subtleties that are escaping my notice in his paintings. So far, I like the colors. I don't dislike his work, I just am not moved by it. It's too still for me. It makes me breath too shallowly.

2026. wabbit - May 14, 1998 - 7:15 PM PDT
Azure,

A couple things. First, I'm happy to hear you ask "Do we need to know more about painting than why we like what we like?" Many people stop with "I know what I like" and never get around to being able to articulate why.

Second, you say "...I just am not moved by it. It's too still for me. It makes me breath too shallowly." Sounds to me like you *are* moved.

2027. AzureNW - May 14, 1998 - 7:31 PM PDT

wabbit -

Rothko may have meant to convey images of a spent world, but they move me to turn away. His paintings are so minimal they almost amount to sensory deprivation. Have others said that his works intend to express extinction?

2028. WinstonSmith - May 14, 1998 - 7:40 PM PDT
Azure,

"I'm learning about art, too. Do we need to know more about painting than why we like what we like?"

Well, right now, I like what I like because of how it makes me feel, but I am interested in the lives of the artists, their techniques and influences, as well. I suppose there are a number of ways to appreciate art (emotional, technical, etc.).

"I couldn't find the Red on Maroon Rothko"

It looks like a big red, cloud-like, zero with square corners, on a maroon background. It kind of looks like a doorway to a hazy maroon void.

2029. wabbit - May 14, 1998 - 8:20 PM PDT
Azure,

What Rothko felt when he made the paintings and what you feel as an observer do not need to be the same thing. Some people feel peace, some sense an underlying violence, some see extinction, and some people don't see anything at all. Have you seen many Rothko paintings in person? Seguine is quite right, many of them have not held up well, but minimal is something they are not.

Here is the Rothko painting mentioned in Blaise's poem.

2030. RobertDente - May 14, 1998 - 10:13 PM PDT
Strange--It's a little past midnight and I just got back from a lecture by Wolf Kahn (a contemporary landscape painter influenced by Rothko and Hans Hofmann). The lecture was titled: "Six Good Reasons Not To Paint A Landscape!" After the talk he was asked why he still painted and a couple of his reasons relate to some comments above: Paintings are devices to elicit genuine feelings and a good painting describes something that has never been described before in exactly the same way.

It also may be helpful to appreciate the fact that the juxtaposition of colors can create a space for the eye and the mind to explore. The idea is to suggest rather than spell everything out so the viewer's imagination and life experience is engaged. In Japan there is a kind of painting called "one corner painting" in which the artist only paints in one corner and the viewer's yearning fills in the rest. It has also been said that art is a collaboration with nature and the less the artist consciously does, the better the art.

2031. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 12:45 PM PDT

RobertDente -


"Paintings are devices to elicit genuine feelings and a good painting describes something that has never been described before in exactly the same way."

I have been referring to abstract paintings as "landscapes", because I look at non-representational art as an experience of a place. I put myself in the picture, then examine the feelings of being there.


"...[In good painting] The idea is to suggest rather than spell everything out so the viewer's imagination and life experience is engaged..."

An abstract painting seems to refine out or extract some properties of a scene to allow others emphasis. Refining out some properties is used as a way of directing attention to others. Right?

2032. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 12:56 PM PDT

AzureNW's first verbal impressions of Mark Rothko's painting "Violet, Black, Orange, Yellow on White and Red", 1949:


A too close up portrait of a person,
a headless person.

Hot pink, sunburned
ugly summer clothes

fat, stuffed, packed in
can't raise your arms

head is elsewhere

2033. RobertDente - May 15, 1998 - 1:15 PM PDT
Azure-

uh...!? Homina homina homina.... Gee I don't know, please look to wabbit for that kind of permission--not me!

I tend to read that Rothko as a large meadow of wheat with a hot summer sky above and a black band of trees in the middle ground. But I can see your take also now that you have described it. Look up eidetic vision.

2034. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 1:16 PM PDT
Random thoughts redux.

wabbit - couldn't agree with you more on that Mondrian retro at MOMA. Definitely a painter whom I wish had kept on developing along the lines of his earlier work. I mean - balance, juxtaposition of colors and lines, ya ya ya. But - as you said, the "importance" of double lines?

Same church, different pew. I found myself quite taken with the early Legers (I liked the combination of the cubism and the soft blurs of paint on part of the canvas) at the recent MOMA show (and his drawings whenever done) but the flat representational works, especially the ones towards the end, just seemed...flat. Almost cartoon like. (No offense intended, Philistine.)

Fie on your "trees or faces", PsE. Over $17 million for a Warhol painting ("Orange Marilyn") and "only" $3.3 million for a really striking 1951 Rothko at the auctions here in NYC this week. Fie.

2035. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 1:35 PM PDT

labarjare -

Which Rothko painting are you referring to as really striking in your post above? I would like to try to find it on the web.

2036. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 1:55 PM PDT
Azure - Its title is "Untitled." It has a blue background, a large mostly darkish green rectange of color at the top (with a darker blue halo more or less all around it), a small rectangular band of a lightish green below that and a third rectangle (about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the darkish green one) at the bottom. It is mostly yellow with greenish/yellow blends in the lower corner.

A photo of it is in today's W.S.Journal.

2037. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 2:04 PM PDT

RobertDente -

Thank you for the interesting Hans Hofmann link. He seems to have been pursuing several styles of painting simultaneously.


Hans Hofmann's forceful works from the mid-sixties, those I believe are described as having a "push-pull" gestural quality, appeal to me much more than the Rothkos I have seen so far.

2038. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 2:07 PM PDT

Thanks, labarjare!

I would like to hear what you consider really striking about the painting. I'll take a look at the WSJ photo today and post a note about my impressions.

2039. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 4:00 PM PDT

A blocked view,
a window with a dense, yellowing shrub
pressing the glass

low center of gravity

sediment of a dissolved living thing
breaking down

keep looking down

stay
motionless

2040. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 5:20 PM PDT
Sure, Azure.

The overall balance of shapes and colors, with the strength/vividness of the smaller bottom balancing the larger mass of the top rectangle.

The interplay of the "primary" colors and the shadings.

To me there is both a tranquility and a dynamic feel to this painting. The tranquility comes in part by the balance that I alluded to above and the way the colors and shapes, at first impression, seem to be more or less in harmony with one another. But then, as you continue to look at it to me there is dissonance. The upper rectangle has a deep (may I use the word profound) density to it, not only in the green areas but in the way that the center core plays off against the blue halo. The center rectangle appears to be more or less static (at least from the WSJournal photograph - I haven't seen the painting in real life).

But, the bottom rectangle is very much alive - both in its interplay and shadings of colors and in its very fluid bottom where there appears to be "hazes" of both whitish purple and green colors.

So - a lot going on in both a very peaceful and agitated way.

I don't see any images of representational matter(s).

Did you find the painting to be beautiful? (At least as far as you can tell from a photograph in a newspaper.)

2041. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 5:52 PM PDT

labarjare -

You are noticing contrasting elements that I overlooked, and you are seeing more detail in each of those elements. For some reason, I see the composition as a single, unified element rather than a combination, and I think that adds a dull and oppressive note to my interpretation. Thanks for giving me an interesting look at what you see in the painting.

As with the other Rothko paintings I've seen, the field of color filling the center of the canvas too near the edge gives me the impression of viewing an object that is crowding in too close to be seen clearly. My eye is drawn to try to look around it; I see it as an obstruction. (I described the feeling as trying to see past a shrub blocking a window.)

The sensation of downness, being pressed down or breaking down, is inescapable for me in this work. The eye is drawn down to a flat line. The yellow is weighted down by the green.

All of the colors in the painting are beautiful to me, alone and in the combinations used. The relative quanitiy of the colors is reminicent of a natural scene and invokes fresh air. There is a calm and orderly rythmn in the composition that is comforting.

2042. labarjare - May 15, 1998 - 6:08 PM PDT
Azure - one of the wonderful things about Rothko, to me at least, is that his paintings allow for so many different reactions and spheres of appreciation. I've only seen a couple of Rothkos that I haven't found both beautiful and complex. Someone very early on in this thread (I think it was senecio) said that Rothko touched his soul. I buy into that.

Of course, I don't really believe in souls in the traditional sense.

2043. AzureNW - May 15, 1998 - 6:19 PM PDT

labarjare -

It would be interesting to talk to senecio about his take on Rothko, too. It really is fun to try to see something as evocative as a major artist's work through someone else's eyes. I think I have seen two "real life" Rothko paintings, and now I am very interested in seeing more.

2044. Philistine - May 16, 1998 - 5:23 AM PDT
Sorry to interrupt the Rothkofest (which I have found to be extremely interesting and engaging, btw. Thanks Wabbit, Labarjare, Kurt, Robert and AzureNW) but I attended a fascinating meeting last night of the KOOP radio hiphop collective and have some great, although tentative news to report. KOOP has finally booked a venue for our planned Juneteenth celebration/benefit. We will take over the Victory Grill on the evening of June 19th to present a show that will more or less cover the gamut of contemporary African American musical expression. although the full lineup is not yet confirmed, we expect to host performances by K-Otix, Hot Buttered Rhythm, Big Game Hunter, Gil Scott-Heron, Bilal Sunni-Ali, Wadada Leo Smith and Anthony Braxton.

Okay, back to the purty pictures now.

2045. RobertDente - May 16, 1998 - 7:33 AM PDT

Here is a link to a Warhol Auction article (with images) and here is a link to a Rothko painting that is part of curator Mark Rosenthal's latest catalogue of the Rothko show at The National Gallery in DC.

2046. AzureNW - May 17, 1998 - 6:36 PM PDT

The disquiet trapped within changelessness I see in Rothko's abstract works must be the response the artist wanted to elicit. "I have imprisoned the most utter violence in every inch of their [the paintings] surface," he is quoted in the Arts painting article by Christopher Benfey, linked above. Rothko "challenged his viewers to find the tragedy lurking in the canvases," and tragedy is exactly what I am seeing.

2047. AzureNW - May 17, 1998 - 6:39 PM PDT

RobertDente -

Thanks for the white, red, grey and black Rothko. What do you think of it?


I think it's a view of a frozen world from within a warm, dark place. The three panels evoke regions of bodily awareness; eyes alert and staring, heart strongly emphasized, legs and feet motionless. The emphasis on the beating heart conveys a kind of dread, as does the tension focused at the paintings "eye level" by the cold, bright color and the narrower horizontal line in the upper portion. The whole composition is confined in black. As with the other Rothko paintings in horizontal panels, the only discernable movement is that the eye is drawn down. A dire, entrapped kind of timelessness is conveyed through changelessness, motionlessness.

Rothko is quoted as saying "There is no such thing as a good painting about nothing. We assert that the subject is crucial and only that subject matter is valid which is tragic and timeless."

2048. AzureNW - May 17, 1998 - 6:39 PM PDT


(and people think rock and roll is a down trip)

2049. RobertDente - May 17, 1998 - 8:19 PM PDT
Azure-

What I think doesn't really matter. It's like asking what I think when I hear thunder or smell a rose. The experience is what I savor and enjoy without the judgmental aftertaste. I enjoy the way the luminosity of the color on the black ground creates a depth and a space with very simple yet vivid elements. The top band recedes and the middle red pool of color seems miles in front of it. The physicality of the painting isn't as powerful as its luminosity in cyberspace however, so it's more like looking at a slide of a landscape or a person. Nor can one appreciate the artists touch and surface quality in this "ghost!" It gives one a vague idea of the reality because we have some experience, but it's not the same sensation.

Your take is quite intense, personal and full of life, btw. I think Rothko would have been quite pleased by your response.


Here is a link to a Mark Rothko homage that I made in 1977. It relates to the sadness in his work, to his suicide and the isolation of the artist.

2050. JustSayYo - May 17, 1998 - 8:27 PM PDT
Ah, thanks for sharing RD. It's a link which becomes a link, a human link. Silence, alone, view what could be and can't be. The posts regarding Rothko between you and Azure or others have been of interest.

Peace.

2051. AzureNW - May 17, 1998 - 8:34 PM PDT

RobertDente -

What you see in the paintings matters to me, and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Reading your impressions directs my attention to artistic elements I haven't noticed and enriches my experience of the works. For example, the use of luminosity of the color on the black ground to create depth and space is worth examining, because it contrasts with the strong notes of confinement. It may be intended to balance the dispair. Both you and labarjare emphasized the luminosity of the color fields as key to your interpretaion of Rothko's paintings.

2052. AzureNW - May 17, 1998 - 9:12 PM PDT

RobertDente -

The little cursor arrow *is* part of your Rothko-Box compostion, isn't it?

2053. RobertDente - May 18, 1998 - 7:55 AM PDT
Yo- Thanks again.

Azure- No, the pointer is meant to indicate that the image above is what the viewer sees when they look inside the glass atop the box. It is a small (loft) chamber that contains a chair (with blood on it) and and a painting that is turned up against a brick wall. Again, this is a limited medium wrt the object in physical space. But it does, at least, give a limited idea of the experience.

2054. trouserPilot - May 18, 1998 - 12:14 PM PDT
latest acquisitions:

•Black Uhuru "Sinsemilla" (1980)
•Luis Miguel "Romance" (1991)
•Muddy Waters "His Best 1947-1955" (1997)
•L. Berio: Concerto II "Echoing Curves"; "Rendering" (Schubert/Berio); Quattro versioni originali della "Ritirata notturna di Madrid" (Boccherini/Berio) (1997)
•J. Brahms: Violin concerto in D Major, op. 77/R. Schumann: Fantasy for violin and orchestra in C Major, op. 131 (1997)
•J. Haydn: String quartets, op. 54, nos. 1-3 (1988)
•J. Haydn: String quartets, op. 77, nos. 1, 2; op. 103 (1988)
•Andrew Cyrille Quintet "Ode to the Living Tree" (1995)
•Archie Shepp "Live in San Francisco" (1966)
•Jimmy Smith and Wes Montgomery "Further Adventures of Jimmy and Wes" (1966)
•Anthony Wonsey Trio "Another Perspective" (1997)
•Sun Ra Arkestra "Hours After" (1989)

(Hey! View the complete list!)

2055. KurtMondaugen - May 18, 1998 - 1:55 PM PDT
tp:

Had the good fortune to stumble across an old copy of the Deutsche Grammaphon dbl-LP of Mauricio Kagel's 1968 "Acustica". Kagel may be most widely known (apart from his work in "Horspiel" (radio-art) for his developments in 'theatrical music' (not to be confused with musical theatre, elaborate (and mostly humorous) spectacles wherein the performative aspects of a given piece are of primary importance, which gives rise to the music itself. "Acustica" consists of two separate plains; one entails the playback of a 4-track tape w/ a fixed sequence, and the second derives from the playi8ng of 2 to 5 musicians which can be varied from performance to performance in the construction of material and manner of interaction. The instrumental score was written on approximately 200 filing-cards, in the top right hand corner of which the relevant main-instrument is indicated by a symbol. Neither the order of the cards, the playing duration, or the specifics of the ensemble are specified. Every 'action' is, however, exactly predetermined, although the performers always decide the point of their entires. Thus, according to Kagel, they achieve more than a mere reproduction of their parts, as they incorporate influences from one another in their playing, as if they were an audience of themselves. "Acustica" is a part of a tryptic of pieces, "Exotica" and "Historica" being the other two, all of which utilize the same performance instructions and 'score', but different instrumentation requirements: "Exotica" uses a large collection of indigenous folk instruments from Native-American and foreign cultures, and "Historica" is designed for ancient or otherwise archaic instruments ("Historica" unfortunately has never been performed, as nobody has yet been able to amass or construct the instruments required). "Acustica" is concerned with the actual invention of the sound-so

2056. KurtMondaugen - May 18, 1998 - 1:57 PM PDT
"Acustica" is concerned with the actual invention of the sound-sources, and entails an odd selection of homemade or manipulated objects: bullroar, bellow, tumbler siren, loudspeaker mute, whistle-tree, compressed air cylinder, balloon, loudspeaker megaphone, panxylo and resonator-box, lateral ventialor, wooden stick, glove impregnated with resin and resonator box, conveyor belt, miniature door and window, plastic nail box, scabellum, cog-wheel, battery motor, castanet keyboard, photocells and audio generator, glockenspiel keys, walkie talkie and PVC tube, hummingbird in bag (my favorite), grammophone record, knife and paper cone, hinged board, gas blow-lamp and metal tube, stones and pail of water, five-tongued ratchet, thundersheets, nail violin and wax pan-pipes. The performers and loudspeakers are given specific fixed-positions designed to create a 3-dimensional acoustic environment, further adding to the sound-experience. Alternately funny and scary stuff, and essential for all Kagel enthusiasts (all 14 of 'em).

2057. trouserPilot - May 18, 1998 - 3:25 PM PDT
It sounds great, KM. Is the hummingbird alive or dead?

I think I might become #15.

2058. KurtMondaugen - May 18, 1998 - 3:32 PM PDT
TP:

Well, there's no disclaimer in the liner notes saying "no hummingbird was abused or mistreated during the recording of this LP", so I'll assume it was alive, well, and buzzing away. Of course back at an old performance of the home-made electronics ensemble I was playing with for a time, one member had the idea of tacking live bees to a contact-miked (hooked up to effects) beer can. Made some nice sounds for all of 50 seconds or so, and actually pissed off a few of the more PC members of the audience.

2059. trouserPilot - May 18, 1998 - 3:42 PM PDT
The bee lobby? Sigh.

2060. labarjare - May 18, 1998 - 8:02 PM PDT
How does one know what a hummingbird in a bag sounds like for verification purposes? I smell a rat. (Don't tell me, Kurt - I know. There is someone somewhere who has .....)

2061. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 8:20 AM PDT
Actually, I'm hooked on those new plastic bags that close with that slider thing, but I occasionally find myself getting misty remembering the little sandwich bags with the flap. Of course, the hummingbird would probably fly right out of those. Does this qualify as "art theory"?

2062. senecio - May 19, 1998 - 9:02 AM PDT
Jut wanted to say thanks, fellows. I have enjoyed immensely the discussion going on through the last 80 posts or so and wished I could have been here to join in.

I have to go now but hope to tune in soon. Anyway, altough I am not able to sit regularly at the computer these days, I always check all past posts in this thread. If next time I'm around is not too late, I'd like to add my bit to the Mondrian and Rotho and non representational art discussion.

BTW, when was it that we were merged with the music thread? Great idea, at any rate.

Another question: does anyone know where is JCrohn3960 these days? is s/he posting under another name? For some reason the discussion of these last few days reminded me of the great early days of these thread and I kind of missed his/her invariably insightful contributions (Not that the actual discussion was wanting in any way. Just missed him/her. Call me sentimental...)

2063. KurtMondaugen - May 19, 1998 - 9:05 AM PDT
senecio:

Unless I'm totally bonkers, I believe you're thinking of Seguine.

2064. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 9:30 AM PDT
Okay, my comments here are going to be very sketchy, but as long as this is what passes for the music thread, I guess this is the place for 'em.

I attended another Indian Classical music recital Sunday night, this one a duet of sitar and tabla. The performers, Nayan Ghosh (sitar) and Yogesh Samsi (tabla) both appeared very young, probably about my age, but the program notes indicate that each of them is a long established master of their instrument (I frequently wish that my own parents had been more musically inclined, and hustled me onto an instrment as a child rather than waiting for me to develop an interest in music at about 16...um, another time, maybe.)

At any rate, they performed two classical raag, one for late afternoon and the other for early evening. Because I lack the vocabulary to explain the experience well, I will simply say that they were virtuosic, emotionally powerful, and sonically exquisite. After a short intermission, they returned to play a semi-classical piece, which allowed Mr. Ghosh a somewhat larger (or perhaps simply less restricted) tonal palatte to improvise on, and felt a little 'lighter' and more playful. Finally, they concluded the evening with a Bhaal(?) folk song, which Mr. Ghosh sang as well as played. His translation of the lyrics, which I understand are extemporaneously composed in Bhaal folk music revealed a simple but moving metaphor for spiritual yearning. A little ironic, considering the venue was a small recital hall in a small Lutheran university!

I'd like to thank my friend Jason for turning me onto this type of music and encourage everyone not familiar with it to become familiar. The next ICMCA (Indian Classical Music Circle Of Austin) event is a vocal concert set to take place June 12th at an outdoor venue called the Radiance Dome. I'll report back then.

2065. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 12:50 PM PDT

senecio -

Hello! I'm looking forward to meeting you and hearing your ideas about non-representational art and other kinds of painting. I'll watch for your name.

2066. senecio - May 19, 1998 - 3:43 PM PDT
Thanks, Azure. I have only a little time now, so I'll confine myself to Mondrian.

True, more speudo theoretical blabber is uttered about non rep than about rep art and even more so about non pictorial art. The Fraysters in this thread are duly en guarde against phoniness. But Mondrian in my view is for real and of the very great artists of the first half of this century.

Forget the silly talk about he "importance of the double line". Just look at ths man's work. How can one like is early work and not the subsequent oeuvre, when it is so plain that there was always a continuum in his journey, as made clear by the MOMA show of some time ago? That journey has little to do with his odd beliefs. Other artists have claimed that their work stems from their beliefs, but the work may well stand on its own.

Mondrian's journey was a search for the order that underwrites passion. (Braque used to say: I love the rule that corrects the emotion) Mondrian searched for the elementary grammar of harmony and proportion. A Braque-like deep, quiet passion about the visible was always present in him, as evident to all in his trees series and more so in his gorgeous flower works. You can see how he moved on in this series -- and in his whole development -- step by step, towards growing simplification, but the emotion is always there, even in the simplest of his diamond-shaped pictures. (One has just to glance at his followers, so inert and empty, to realize there are no shorcuts in such a journey).

Once he felt he had distilled the elementary grammar of proportion and, yes, sheer beauty, he allowed himself the joy of building more elaborate works with such elements, in his latest production.

Some art lovers enjoy a degree of abstraction, as long as art doesn't break loose from the representational moors. I can't see how one can emerge from a Mondrian retro and not throw away that security blanket.

2067. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 3:56 PM PDT

senecio -

I would very much enjoy evaluating some of Mondrian's works with you to learn why you believe he is one of the very great artists of the first half of this century. Do you know of a particular painting of his that can be found on the internet we could discuss?

2068. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 4:07 PM PDT

senecio -

Trees are something I understand the beauty of and intend to paint myself. I may be able to gain insight into Mordrain's viewpoint through his interpretation of trees. I'll look for examples of his trees series on the net and post a link if I find a good one.

2069. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 4:10 PM PDT
--an aside--

I thought Roy Lichtenstein's Mondrian homage (which I saw hanging in the Phoenix Art Museum -- yes, there is such a place! -- a few years ago) was hysterically funny.

2070. rickc2000 - May 19, 1998 - 4:18 PM PDT
I come here now to humble beseech my brothers and sisters to help fill a gap in my life. When I relocated a few years ago I lost my best source of music information as it concerns contemporary rock. I used to get a great public radio station that played an electic blend of great stuff from all genres. So I could hear things and then decide whether or not to buy.

Know that I am a cheap bastard who does not like to buy recordings unless I am reasonably confident I will like the music. Since moving I have lost my connection to what is good in the rock and world music areas but I am hesitent to just go out and buy stuff "sound unheard", or listen to countless hours of commercial radio on the hope that a gem will be played.

2071. rickc2000 - May 19, 1998 - 4:19 PM PDT
So my request is this: I would appreciate your personal lists of the ten essential recordings in rock and in world music over the past five years. Pleaase just post them here. I will come find them and I suspect I will appreciate any discussion this request generates. Thanks for your help!

2072. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 4:41 PM PDT

"I would appreciate your personal lists of the ten essential recordings in rock and in world music over the past five years."

This will be fun, rickc2000. Thanks for limiting the lists to the past five years! hahaha

(Down with stale 'contemporary' music! That was then, this is now!)

2073. rickc2000 - May 19, 1998 - 4:54 PM PDT
Azure; "(Down with stale 'contemporary' music! That was then, this is now!)" Right on girl. Nostalgia is for fogies! Give us tomorrows music today.

2074. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 4:57 PM PDT

Well, who are some of your favorite musicians, rickc2000? Do you like electronica?

2075. rickc2000 - May 19, 1998 - 5:00 PM PDT
I like about anything but gansta rap and possibly techno (maybe) but I got to run now. I can post more about what I like tomorrow but I want what you all think are the "important" recordings regardless of what names I know. For you a fun game, for me a great growth opportunity!

2076. coralreef - May 19, 1998 - 5:09 PM PDT
rickc2000 --

Wrong thread.

Nice try though.:-)

2077. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 5:11 PM PDT


What do you mean, coralreef? Wrong thread for a contemporary music discussion?

2078. coralreef - May 19, 1998 - 5:14 PM PDT
yep. That's what I mean.

2079. coralreef - May 19, 1998 - 5:33 PM PDT
Sigh. Ok, ok, I will stop complaining. ;-)

Snoop and Blur away to your heart's content!

2080. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 5:49 PM PDT
No, rick's ruled out Snoop.

2081. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 5:51 PM PDT

coralreef -

Not even FrayVader can silence rock and roll. It just won't go away.

hehehe

2082. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 5:57 PM PDT
rickc2000

This one's easy: contemporary rock of the late 1990s begins and ends with one name: Hanson.

2083. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 5:59 PM PDT

There is some rap rickc2000 should have in his collection. Philistine could help him choose some, I'll bet. Rap is *much* too important a part of contemporary music to overlook.

If he doesn't particularly care for techno and rap, rickc2000 probably likes lots of guitar, and might like rap that has strong guitar or base components, or something like the Red Hot Chili Peppers "Blood Sugar Sex Magic."

2084. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 6:03 PM PDT
Well, I will risk the Reefermans ire and respond to Rick's request. Besides, I still am angry over the deletion of Music.

The last five years, eh? So 1993 is the cutoff. My personal favorite pop genre is in fact hiphop (although not gangsta rap) so let me concentrate on that, even though a lot of it defies the 'pop' label due to its obscurity and difficulty to fully digest.

The biggest story in hiphop for years now has been the Wu-Tang Clan, a loose conglomerate of MCs from Staten Island, NYC. They debuted on '93s "36 Chambers: Enter the Wu-Tang Clan" and have performed the very rare feat of bridging the gap of 'underground' and 'mainstream.' In other words, they sell in the millions for major labels, but the people who listen to only the newest and most independent music still love 'em. There is plenty of street talk about guns, drugs and so on in their music, but the stories are told compellingly and colorfully, and seldom glorify the 'Thug Life' in the way that 2pac and Biggie Smalls were famous for. It is probably not a coincidence that those rappers were killed by violence and the members of Wu-Tang Clan have generally been able to avoid such drama. A major component of the Wu-Tang Clan's success has been their distinctive and(of course) much imitated sound, which may be described as a less rock-oriented version of Public Enemy's 'Bring The Noise' aesthetic. The chief musical producer of the group, the RZA, combines old soul and funk recordds with dissonant sounds and phrases from sources including, but not limited to old kung fu movies (hence the group's name), avant jazz, video games, classical music (both traditional and Mondaugenesque modern), and live instruments, especially siren-like squeals and distressed metal noises.

to be continued.

2085. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 6:04 PM PDT

Another big story in hiphop has been the rise of the West Coast (particularly LA and Oakland) "lyrical underground." This is a very large and very loosely aligned conglomeration of groups that also disdain the 'gangsta' aesthetic in favor of an improvisationally based 'freestyle' tendency (freestyling is the extemporaneous invention of lyrics) and a renewed emphasis on the musicianly qualities of sampling and scratching, along with collaborations with jazz and junk instrumentalists and singers. A lot of this sruff is tough to find, but the "Beats and Lyrics" compliation from Industry records should give you a good overview.

2086. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 6:06 PM PDT
jazz and FUNK instumentalists.

As a very great man once said, "D'oh!"

2087. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 6:08 PM PDT
Phil
You forgot Puff Daddy.

2088. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 6:13 PM PDT
And Lord Tariq & Peter Gunz.

2089. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 6:13 PM PDT
And Warren Beatty.

2090. trouserPilot - May 19, 1998 - 6:14 PM PDT
OK, I'll stop now.

2091. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 6:32 PM PDT

Philistine -

Thanks for the recommendations re: Beats and Lyrics and the Wu-Tang Clan as representative of important trends in hiphop. There is so much happening so fast in hiphop that I haven't been able to assimilate or interpret. (I seem to have trouble comprehending music that lacks electric guitar, for some reason.)

2092. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 6:40 PM PDT
Well, BrowserPirate (I was distracted by your American Heritage link) I ain't even half done.

Rick

Djs, it may surprise you to know, are no longer an element of hiphop, having been replaced by turntablists. This is just so much buzzwordery, of course, but the fact remains that DJs now do much more than loop disco records. In fact, there is now a subgenre that might take the surprising designation of 'instrumental rap.' In practice, instrumental rap, turntable jazz, or whatever you want to call it isn't very different from electronica or tchno or whatever you choose to call it, except for the pace (85-100 bpm vs. 120-180 bpm) and the audience. You may have also heard this type of thing called 'rare groove' or 'trip-hop.' Lots of folks swear on Moby, ORB, Chemical Brothers and other honkifiers of the style, but I say check out San Francisco's Invisible Scratch Pickles and Brooklyn's X-ecutioners for the blacker, stronger stuff, as well as paying close attention to the instrumental B-sides of 12" singles, especially anything labeled something like 'scratch mix.'

And so we come to the true fusions of live funk and rapping. The most successful group taking this approach is Philadelhpia's Roots. Any of their albums are unbeleivalby terrific, although the second "Do You Want More?!!?!!??!!?" is my fave. Still, Organized Noise from Atlanta is doing great things providing the backing for groups like OutKast, Goodie Mob, and Witchdoctor, while Austin's Big Game Hunter and LAs Black Eyed Peas take the Root's approach of integrating MCs into a live band. It is my understanding that in BEP, the rappers rhyme and improvise as the lay down grooes on their instruments live. YOW!

And to round things out, a new generation of soul brothers and sisters is finally living up to the legacy of the 60s. Go and get albums by D'Angelo, Maxwell, Erykah Badu, Joi, and The Family Stand. They some bad, funky, soulful youth.

2093. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 6:41 PM PDT
Anytime, Bluegreen. I love yapping about this stuff.

2094. AzureNW - May 19, 1998 - 7:15 PM PDT

Philistine -

Do you pay more attention to the lyrics in your favorite music or the instrumentation? The emphasis on complex lyrics in hiphop would lead me to believe vocal part of the music is of paramount importance to understanding genre, but then I've heard a lot of people who like hiphop don't have any idea what the lyrics to their favorite songs are. Do you have any favorite lyricists?

2095. coralreef - May 19, 1998 - 7:45 PM PDT

Here is a catalog of rap lyrics.

2096. Philistine - May 19, 1998 - 8:28 PM PDT
Sure I do, Azure. Coralreef has located an excellent lyrics directory, actually, long a favorite of mine.

Keep in mind that I pay as much attention to the musical aspects of an MCs performance as to the linguistic ones. This is not just poetry, after all, but the latest manifestation of a millenia-old African oral tradition and I'm sure you know the litany here (although I heard a thing on NPR last week about the professional storytellers in Chinese teahouses who were sometimes accompanied by bamboo percussion that made me think perhaps it is too broad to be labeled African.) The point is, rap lyrics must be heard to be understood - even the worst lose much when read. Anyway, herewith a litany of some lyricists I love, as they fly randomly to the top of my head.

AceyAlone, Abstract Rude, A Plus, Talib Kweli, KRS 1, Chuck D, Rakim, Pharoahe Monche, Prince Poetry, Medusa, Queen Latifah, Bahamadia, Posdnous, Trugoy the Dove, Del The Funkee Homosapien, Q-Tip, Big Boi, Dre', C-Lo, Common Sense (now known as Common), Nas, Busta Rhymes, Kool Keith, Lateef the Truthspeaker, Lyrics Born, Fatlip, Imani, Mos Def, Jeru The Damaja, Guru, Opio, Pep Love, Murs, Asop, The Grouch, Saafir the Saucy Nomad, Humpty Hump, Ras Kass, ummmm and lots more.

If you'd like me to repost all of my old hiphop links, say the word.

2097. JustSayYo - May 19, 1998 - 9:00 PM PDT
Cool, so is PE, NWA, Black Uhuru, Burning Spear, and any other soul brother music included in this.

I remember when Prince was so big here in Mpls. and when Shangoya was too much. Alas I'm an older fart and out of hipdom.

I still love my PE and Black Uhuru, freedom, freedom.

Sighhhh...

2098. KurtMondaugen - May 19, 1998 - 10:12 PM PDT
(sigh)

Okay, rick asked for a list of 10 fave rock/world (odd correlation, there) records of the past five years. Although I generally loathe rock, and distrust most 'world' music (if it ain't recorded in the field, indigenously, then it don't count, IMO), I'm game:

1) Istanbul 1925 (Traditional Crossroads, USA), a wonderful collection taken from original acetates and metal cylinders of popular nightclub standards from a particular era which crossbred Armenian, Greek, Moroccan and Spanish traditions into an intoxicating brew. Kudos to TC for not even trying to clean up the noise on the original tapes.
2) Soixante Etages "Beaux Soirs de Paris" (33 Revpermi, FR) If the words "France" and "rock" don't gel in your brain, check this out. Be prepared to cull Cassiber, Curlew, Henry Cow and Etron Le Lou Blan as reference points, though.
3) 'Wedding Bands from Rajasthan' "Disco Bhangra" (Avant, Japan) If you got married in Rahjastan, this is the music you'd have to contend with. These disco brass bands would follow you around all day while distant relatives waved money over your head. Recorded live in Jaipur, India in 1989 by Yale Evelev (and released this year), this is one of the oddest ethnographic documents of Indian music ever recorded. Rejected by 5 record companies as too strange, now available for your, um, pleasure.
4) Eyvind Kang "Sweetness of Sickness" (RGI, USA) Okay, I put this one out...a plug's a plug.
5) Fushitsusha "Live 2" (PSF, Japan) Keiji Haino crosses the miasma of Lost Exit, the free-form abandon of Bailey's Company and an immense personal spirituality into massive excursions of, well, massive excursions.
5) The Red Krayola "Hazel" (Drag City, USA) Mayo Thompson updated, improved, slapped silly, and otherwise reborn.
6) The Dead C. "Trapdoor Fucking Exit" (Siltbreeze, USA)Okay, so it's a reissue of an obscure New Zealand cassette, so sue me.

2099. KurtMondaugen - May 19, 1998 - 10:21 PM PDT
6)
7) Sun City Girls "Torch of the Mystics" (Tupelo, USA) Another reissue. Still, this thing just about has to be on here, no?
8) Tanburi Cemil Bey (Traditional Crossroads, USA) Wax cylinder recordings from 1910-14 of Turkish legend Cemil Bey on tanbur, kemence, ud, & violoncello, performing in the art of Taksim (basically Middle Eastern improv). Kudos again to Crossroads for allowing the sound of the cylinder player to remain audible, and for no attempt whatsoever at digitalizing anything.
9) Merzbow "Batztouti With Material Gadgets" (RRR, USA) Yet another reissue (I guess rock isn't faring well these days, surprise) of Masami Akita's classic Japanese skronk. Most folks wouldn't call this rock proper, but all of its base elements (misogyny, aggression, infantilism, indoctrination) are on display with cheeky wit and grotesque abandon.
10) I can't think of a 10

I'm so embarrased.

2100. KurtMondaugen - May 19, 1998 - 10:58 PM PDT
ooh! I thought of a 10!:

10) Caroliner Rainbow Wicker Birdskull Dervish Conspiracy "any single one of their 12 or so titles will do, as each one is always randomly in print and/or circulation" (Nuf Sed, USA) the Caroliner Rainbow Hands Replaced by Oversised Rocks channels 18th C. folk-songs by way of a wire-spool recorder, authentic instrumentation, and elaborate theatrical devices. The Caroliner Rainbow Rear End Hernia Puppet Show should in no way come across as in the least bit 'arty' or otherwise inscruitable. They're the real deal for those whose cupboards are aching for kitchen physics.

2101. CalGal - May 19, 1998 - 11:06 PM PDT
Kurt,

(sob) (lol)

2102. trouserPilot - May 20, 1998 - 8:11 AM PDT
Sun City Girls! From my own backyard.

I'm saving my list for the imminent return of the Music thread....

2103. KurtMondaugen - May 20, 1998 - 9:46 AM PDT
trousers:

Yeah, well they moved years ago. Now they're actually quite literally in my backyard on occassion. I'll pass on your well-wishes.

2104. rickc2000 - May 20, 1998 - 10:12 AM PDT
Thanks all for what you have given out so far. I too await the return of the music thread but, as this is the only current forum for talk about music, here it is.

2105. AzureNW - May 20, 1998 - 5:05 PM PDT

rickc2000 -

Yesterday I started to make a list of ten recordings in rock and world music that have been essential to me personally over the past five years, like you requested in Message #2071. I'm having fun constructing the list. Thanks for asking! It occurred to me that when a music thread is created, lists of least favorites would be fun and revealing, too.

Most of the contemporary music I hear I listen to while driving or exercising. Last night I was looking for music for an upper body workout, to help get rid of a stiff shoulder. Digging through a stack of CDs of rock music I listened to the most five years ago, I found several significant favorites that were released two or three years before I started playing them.

Examining and evaluating the Rothko paintings here has focused my attention on violence and tragedy blazing in constricted isolation as interesting abstract artistic elements, and I found just the music matching my mood to dance the kink out of my shoulder and to add, in some order, to my list of rock recordings essential to me in the last five years.

Particularly now, because of the many similarities I see to themes I've found in Rothko's work, I would include Alice in Chains "Dirt", released in1992, as essential contemporary rock and roll. This isn't "light" rock, in any sense. Layne Staley's voice has qualities of a candle stuck in place, blazing in the dark; searing and filled with energy, yet immobilizing (great for an upper body workout.) Jerry Cantrell's voice's melds beautifully with Layne's. His lyrics and guitar work are very representative of a significant period in rock music culture, and are an excellent example of outstanding rock and roll music in general. I sure hope these guys haven't killed themselves with heroin yet.

2106. labarjare - May 20, 1998 - 5:48 PM PDT
ah my.

Trouseretal. "Warren Beatty" eh? You are on a roll.

Mon. Well, I didn't know any of the 10. Surprised? Somehow I feel like looking for a sjambok.

2107. KurtMondaugen - May 20, 1998 - 6:16 PM PDT
lab:

Well, I'd recommend running out and grabbing #4. If only so that I can collect my 16 cents or whatever it is I get to keep.

2108. labarjare - May 20, 1998 - 7:04 PM PDT
well, you got me. I, ummm, didn't exactly read your list with a lot of concentration.

2109. RobertDente - May 20, 1998 - 9:04 PM PDT

Hey wabbit -- thought you might like this.

2110. wabbit - May 20, 1998 - 9:36 PM PDT
Robert,

How well you know me...thank you!

2111. RobertDente - May 20, 1998 - 9:51 PM PDT
wabbit- You're welcome -- I'm glad you liked it. Check out the other dwgs at the site. They are incredibly modern! (I delivered the show today, btw.)

2112. cigarlaw - May 20, 1998 - 9:52 PM PDT
Liberty.
God's best gift to man.
We were not made
for happiness,
but to be free.

2113. wabbit - May 20, 1998 - 10:01 PM PDT
Robert,

This may inspire a trip to the Drawing Center; Labj and I were rather disappointed with the last show we saw there. Perhaps another NYC lunch is in order?

I plan to drive up to see the show, I'll let you know when I fix a date.

2114. RobertDente - May 20, 1998 - 10:09 PM PDT
Cig- Stay free...Maxi pads ... or Depends -- it doesn't matter! Enjoy yourself and all around you.

Wab- Great! Are you over the "academic hump?"

2115. wabbit - May 20, 1998 - 10:20 PM PDT
Robert,

Nope, I'll be researching and writing all summer, but the occasional day trip to the apple will be most welcome, and a run up to picturesque Kent sounds like great fun!

2116. RobertDente - May 21, 1998 - 7:07 AM PDT
wabbit- Shall we play it by ear -- weather wise?

2117. labarjare - May 21, 1998 - 10:27 AM PDT
C.R. - your "Rothko is phat" post in Suggestions was...phantastic.

Robert - have a good opening. We too hope to get up to Kent to see your show. Let you know as the timing becomes known.

2118. RobertDente - May 21, 1998 - 2:28 PM PDT

Thanks lab, and pleasant journey!

2119. rickc2000 - May 21, 1998 - 4:00 PM PDT
Thanks for the musical suggestions all have made. Now that we have a music thread I will look for further suggestions/lists there. Thanks!

2120. RobertDente - May 22, 1998 - 7:44 AM PDT
wabbit-

FYI: They've closed down the Drawing Center because of structural problems. Consequently, they pulled out the Hugo exhibit and postponed it until the repairs have been made. (See today's NYT for details.)

2121. Seguine - May 22, 1998 - 6:34 PM PDT
Mondaugen,

I meant to apologize aeons ago for never sending you a dub of Pat Robertson's "Why I Want to Be President". My boom box's recording function died on me about a week before I finally found the tape. Very sorry.

2122. KurtMondaugen - May 23, 1998 - 2:46 PM PDT
Seguine:

No problem, and no hurry, either.

2123. labarjare - May 26, 1998 - 5:25 PM PDT
Well, all I can say is that she obviously took you quite literally.

(Actually, I just wanted to get a current date on this thread.)

2124. AzureNW - May 26, 1998 - 5:44 PM PDT

labarjare -

I think it would be rewarding to discuss and compare works linked to on the internet, but I don't know enough about art to know what artists to suggest or where to look for links. A directed topic, as is used in the books threads, might be helpful.

2125. RobertDente - May 26, 1998 - 9:30 PM PDT

Submitted for ponder:
The latest effort of The Starn Twins in SoHo. Profound or trite? Regurgitated flotsam or original vision? Inquiring minds ...yadda yadda...

2126. trouserPilot - May 27, 1998 - 10:47 AM PDT
Well, I'm really looking forward to my upcoming trip to NYC. And while I'm sad that the Paul Simon musical tanked before I could see it, I'm really looking forward to catching the new Terence McNally play!

2127. trouserPilot - May 27, 1998 - 10:51 AM PDT
re 2125

I like it.

2128. RobertDente - May 27, 1998 - 12:54 PM PDT
tp- Your response is sooo effusive! Could you elaborate...Why do you like it and what about it is artful? What meaning does it have for you?


You might consider the John Leguizamo one man play Freak btw -- it's a quite a ride!


(If you take another chance and answer, there might be more links like this for you.)

2129. labarjare - May 27, 1998 - 1:39 PM PDT
tP (or is it Tp these days) - bring your pith helmet. As things now stand, the McNally play's opening has been postponed. Some suitably "outraged" group has threatened to (a) burn down the theater, (b) kill the cast, and (c) "terminate" McNally. (Termination must be something more dire or prolonged than killing, I guess.)

Shame.

Robert - I think the Leguizamo show will have closed by the time tP/Tp/whatever shows up. I know it is a limited run. Seems like he's mostly running on fumes at this point with little voice left as it is. A true original, that guy.

The Sound of Music will still be here, though, I would suspect. Do Re Me.

2130. AzureNW - May 27, 1998 - 2:23 PM PDT

RobertDente -

Re: Message #2125

I'm not sure how to approach Mike and Doug Starn's exhibition, "Black Sun Burned." Appearently "Black Sun Burned" refers to the negative after image burned into one's retina after looking at the sun, creating a "black hole in front of and through everything." Bars of light like toaster coils overilluminate what looks like burned celluloid in the art works. The visual impact is dynamic, uncontrollable and destructive. The theme is the overpowering force of the sun, too strong to escape, too bright to grasp. The works imply a frustrated desire to escape the sun, grasp the sun, overpower the sun. In the text accompanying the visual art works, a kind of butterfly that lights when the sun is shaded is used as a metaphor for the human condition in relation to the sun. The artists describe observing the movement of the butterflies as "the idiotic poetry of puppets," tellingly, where another observer might have seen an inexplicable ballet of butterflies, sun, and shadow.

(I'm starting to perceive a mood that feels something like plastic coated steel in the abstract art from NYC I've seen.)

2131. labarjare - May 27, 1998 - 3:06 PM PDT
A bit more elaboration re McNally's "Corpus Christi". The theater says it was not reacting to the quite vocal agitation of some group entitled (I think) Catholics For Justice and Civil Rights, but to anonymous telephone threats (and the word was "exterminate" not "terminate" McNally.)

The hubbub relates to the fact that the play apparently portrays a Christ-like character named Joshua as being a gay man who has sex (off-stage) with various of the twelve disciples. This Catholic League says that it would be equally upset were the portrayal one of a promiscuous heterosexual. And, even though they disclaim with indignation any hint that they would condone the violence that was threatened, nevertheless the League has warned that any other group that decides to put on the play best be prepared for "unholy war."

Shame. In NYC, no less.

2132. RobertDente - May 27, 1998 - 3:43 PM PDT
labj- According to the site linked above, the show has been extended until July?

Az- Accurate! But my question for you is: Did the execution of their work fall short of your expectation of what you want art to do?

tp- My sincere condolences...maybe the Rockettes?

2133. AzureNW - May 27, 1998 - 4:00 PM PDT

RobertDente -

Re: Message #2132

"Did the execution of their work fall short of your expectation of what you want art to do? "

I think I would have to view the exhibit in person to answer that question fairly. The works seem to intend some physical impact through the intensity of light and perhaps through heat, as well as by the size of the works and the overall disposition of the viewing environment. The question that comes to my mind first in viewing these works is, "What are you so pissed off and uptight about?" The answer to that question is usually complex.

As viewed in this medium, their work does fall short of my expectation of art. It fails to communicate a complete thought well.

+++++++


Is a lot of NYC based non-representational art concerned with themes of oppression?

2134. RobertDente - May 27, 1998 - 7:52 PM PDT
Az-

It helps to follow an artist's efforts for a while before coming to a reasonable determination about their worth. The language of contemporary art, like every other part of the culture today, is at the mercy of fashion, novelty and technology. So time can really help to sort out the esoteric flotsam from the genuine contribution to the human spirit.

The Starn Twins were the adorable Flavor-of-the-Month a few years ago and it is interesting to see their new direction. Their earlier photos had more to to do with deconstructed frames and fragments of photographs of old master paintings. Now that they've added text, as you point out, they seem to obscure much more than they express. They have talent and “a good eye,” but their work has never risen above good graduate level art, imo. They are young yet and I think they have a lot of potential, however.

In this world of repressed naturalness, I think you should trust your instincts.

Wrt you last question: The most difficult thing for any artist to do is take the common place and elevate it to a timeless moment. But in case you hadn't heard, beauty is out of fashion and "bad painting" is in. We may be at a time in our overrefined and collapsing culture when it's just too damned easy to just go through the motions.

2135. RobertDente - May 28, 1998 - 6:24 AM PDT

More info about the MacNally play...

2136. labarjare - May 28, 1998 - 7:16 AM PDT
Robert has linked (an achievement I still haven't mastered) to an article in today's NY Times which indeed says it all, as far as I know.

A couple of corrections re my comments yesterday. It is the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Liberties that is the known antagonist here. (Gee - what is in a name they say.) And, the anonymous death threats were to the theater's staff, not the cast. (The "extermination" of McNally threat remains as was.)

The line in today's article that really grabbed me was to the effect that the above-mentioned League had advised that they would not have any objections if the play "protected the celibacy" of Jesus.

As my friend would say, JAYSUS. As I have been saying, SHAME.

There also is an editorial on this debacle in today's Times as well. I would think that the Miss Meadows who is currently the director of the theater group involved, and who made the ultimate decision to postpone the play in view of the threats, will soon be looking for new

2137. labarjare - May 28, 1998 - 7:19 AM PDT
employment outside the theater world.

2138. adrianne - May 28, 1998 - 7:46 AM PDT
Particularly disturbing to me was the "waging war" language. Firf.

Congrats to the authors who pulled their plays in a show of solidarity.

2139. labarjare - May 28, 1998 - 8:16 AM PDT
Ad - all of this was stirred originally by the wonderful Rupert Murdock newspaper, The New York Post, which got wind (so to speak) about the play about a month ago and blasted forth.

It always is astonishing to see a newspaper or other media vehicle that relys upon the First Amendment so quickly take up causes and in effect support types of actions which have such a chilling effect on the First Amendment.

For Christ's Sake, so to speak, just don't go see the fucking show if you think you will be offended. IMO, of course.

2140. KurtMondaugen - May 28, 1998 - 8:24 AM PDT
Ad:

I heard that Athol Fugard pulled his show from the theatre's roster, and I understand that Vaclav Havel has expressed his dismay at the theatre's decision...what other playwrights have come forth on this?

2141. adrianne - May 28, 1998 - 8:37 AM PDT
Kurt

Yes, Fugard, and (I heard on the radio) another writer pulled, or threatened to, anyway. I'm sorry, I can't remember a name - I'll try to find out.

I'm guessing they'll be more to come. This is too offensive to stomache, even for the self-absorbed NYC theatre community.

2142. Rivendell - May 28, 1998 - 9:05 AM PDT
The Catholic League is a bunch of right-wing, self-righteous terrorists. Every time they get into the news the assumption seems to be that they somehow represent a majority Catholic view. They represent a segment (unfortunately), but not any segment I care to be a part of.

Mrs. Riv keeps up with the theatre news out of NYC better than I do. Must ask her about this tempest.

2143. RobertDente - May 28, 1998 - 2:27 PM PDT
Anyone-

What does "firf" represent?

2144. AzureNW - May 28, 1998 - 5:47 PM PDT

firf is very ladylike barf, RobertDente.

2145. labarjare - May 28, 1998 - 6:19 PM PDT
FIRF is a phrase coined by Ad and therefore it is currently a very LARGE ladylike something or other, Robert. I don't know whether barf actually fits it, Azure. Only Ad will be able to say.

2146. RobertDente - May 29, 1998 - 4:16 AM PDT
labj- Thanks, but I'm still in the dark! What does each letter stand for?

BTW, Victor Hugo's dwgs will return to The Drawing Center next Wednesday until June 14.

2147. Philistine - May 29, 1998 - 4:36 AM PDT
Robert,
It is my understanding that "firf" is onomontopoetic (did I spell that right?) and does indeed refer to an act of regurgitation, much like "hralp" or, indeed, "barf".

2148. turntable - May 29, 1998 - 5:52 AM PDT
RE: firf....ralph?
RE: Starn Twins. They ARE young, and I think it's great that they're finally admitting it by collaborating with people who demonstrate their youth, like the ambient guys tomandandy (?) and Dennis Hopper.
RE: Rap lyrics site, many posts ago. What an ingenious waste of time. Now I know how to rhyme "reinforce it" with "amorphous." Latrix and Lyrics Born. If you haven't, go buy both volumes of Return of the DJ.
"Celebrity" spotting: Saw Dan Graham, Mark Kostabi, Harmony Korine, and Chloe Sevigny last night at the Oursler/Kelley "Poetics" opening. Anyone go?
Can't wait for V HUGO
KURTM: Do you mind if I pass your top 10 to the lab for analysis?

2149. labarjare - May 29, 1998 - 2:13 PM PDT
I didn't have a chance to read more than the first paragraph of the article in today's NYTimes, but it stated that, indeed, McNally's Corpus Christi will be on the Manhattan Theater's fall production schedule, "assurances" of adequate security having been received. The beleaguered (my word, not the characterization in the article) head of the group, Miss Meadows, was being quoted that she was "outraged" at the group's being accused of censorship....that was the point at which I had to stop reading.

Well, any OTHER decision indeed would have sucked.

2150. KurtMondaugen - May 29, 1998 - 2:22 PM PDT
turntable:

Go right ahead, as long as it won't get me arrested.

Lab:

I heard about the reversal of the theatre's decision, and find it to be a great relief. That they had even considered capitulating to the insane threats was truly disturbing....give a freak a cookie and he wants a glass of scotch, no?

2151. labarjare - May 29, 1998 - 7:42 PM PDT
not only truly disturbing Kurt but baffling. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to anticipate the type and strength of the reactions a cancellation decision would engender.