Babble v1 193

babble-digest Tuesday, February 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 193

In this issue:
Re: Pre-Load script Needed
Signatures On the Net
Copyright Javascripts
sound without java
new technology
Copyright infringement
Re: popping out of a frame with javascript
Re: parent window
marginwidth and height
Baffled...Mac-Netscape 3.0
re: Copyright this!? was re: popping out of a frame with javascrip
who would you like to kill
Re: Baffled...Mac-Netscape 3.0
quick table problemo...
RE: JS Copyright Stuff
give it away
Re: quick table problemo...
Re: Alternative?
Re: Java versions of Plug Ins
Re: JS Copyright Stuff
Re: Baffled...Mac-Netscape 3.0

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:17:27 +0100
From: Junior van der Stel <junior@limage-dangereuse.nl>
Subject: Re: Pre-Load script Needed

Hi,

(this is my first posting on this list, so forgive me for being stupid)

A very easy way to accomplish your pre-load, without using javascript,
is to put the next image in the page with a width an height of 1 pixel.
This is way it isn't shown, but gets loaded. Once the slideshow goes to
the next page, the image is already in the cache of the user.

For best result put the next image below the one you want to show
otherwise you're waiting for nothing.

Junior

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:22:03 +0000
From: mbethke@idirect.com
Subject: Signatures On the Net

A client of mine wanted to know what I thought of signing his letter on the
net. The idea I suggested was simple. Use a signature, but don't use his. Find
someone with acceptable handwriting and have them sign in the name of interest.
This provides the human feel without the danger of copying or reproduction.
My two cents.
Mark Bethke

one ring to rule them all,
one ring to find them,
one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:47:53 +0000
From: mbethke@idirect.com
Subject: Copyright Javascripts

I couldn't believe it when I saw it. A copyright three line function. I always
put a silly copyright notice on my scripts. Something along the lines of "and
my brother the lawyer has very little to do this week". Javascript is exactly
what it says, a scripting language. I might have understood if the script was
four pages long. I know I don't have the time to run around the net checking
all the sites to make sure no one is using anything of mine. My personal belief
is that true wisdom is knowledge without pride.

Mark Bethke

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:55:03 +0100
From: Olivier Heitz <olivier@kabeljau.ch>
Subject: sound without java

Question

I would like to include a small soundfile (aif) in one of my pages. It
should automatically play as soon as the page has loaded and it should
loop.
I tried it with the <embed>-tag but netscape had to start java to play
the file.

Does anyone know a way to automatically play a sound without having to
start java?

thanks for your help, Olivier.

- ---
Olivier Heitz / http://www.kabeljau.com / mailto:design@kabeljau.ch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:53:56 -0500 (EST)
From: SolarPunk <solarpnk@stealth.net>
Subject: new technology

hello All, i being reading this mailing for a while,something which have
notice is that information given is really good but to the point. i was
wondering if anyone know what is the percent of new tools
(flash,director,dynamic html) are being use in web site. i think we should
talk a little be more about this tools.

P.S Pardon my english, it is not my first language.

http://www.stealth.net/~solarpnk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:33:15 -0500
From: "Seeman, Joey" <SeemanJ@isd.flightsafety.com>
Subject: Copyright infringement

My co-worker bought a new video card the other day and was surprised to
see an image that had been lifted from his personal web site (it's a
gallery of his 3D work), without his knowledge or consent, on the
packaging.The work in question was created in a 3D package, and he has
all of the original project files. Since he does not recieve this list,
I thought I thought that I would post the question for him. Is there
any legal recourse available for someone who doesn't have his web site
officially registered/trademarked? He does have a copyright notice on
every page, but never sent off for a "real" copyright. Also, does anyone
know of a legal rescource (i.e. lawyers, associations, etc.) that deals
specifically with internet issues like this?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Joseph Seeman
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:46:10 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: popping out of a frame with javascript

At 01:17 AM 2/10/98 -0500, Jeffrey Zeldman wrote:
[snip]
>porter beat me to it (what else is new?). but here's an alternate solution
>from the same family. start your BODY tag thusly:
>
>
> <BODY onLoad="if (self != top) top.location = self.location" etc.
etc....>
>
>no javascript commenting necessary with this solution. browers that don't
>get it will ignore it.
[snip]

My solution:
<HEAD>
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE=JavaScript>
if (top != self) { top.location = self.location; }
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD>

There is a minor difference between my solution and Jeffrey's. Jeffrey's
will load the page in question into the frameset and then break it out;
that is, it will download all the images, text, and other page content
before running the onLoad event handler. Mine, on the other hand, will
break the page out of the frameset and then begin to load it, since
JavaScript in the HEAD is executed before the page loads.

This isn't a reason to use one over the other -- they both provide the
desired functionality -- you should just be aware of the difference,
especially in the case that you're using this for some kind of effect
rather than to ensure that no one else loads your pages in their frameset.

The devil's in the details.

- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:24:49 -0800
From: Ben Margolin <ben@talarian.com>
Subject: Re: parent window

> Christopher wrote:
> >So, I came up with this version:
> >
> ><SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
> >
> ></SCRIPT>

You are joking, correct? You're not really presuming to copyright four
*trivial* lines of javascript, are you? Your comment block is longer
than the code!

- --
[ Ben Margolin - ben@talarian.com ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:51:15 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: marginwidth and height

For some reason NN4 and IE4 won't recognize my marginwidth and
marginheight settings, but NN3 will.

Here's the code for one of the frames:

Anyone know what's up?

Erik
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:04:41 -0800 (PST)
From: focal@intergate.bc.ca (Nina Kabatoff)
Subject: Baffled...Mac-Netscape 3.0

Re: Panasept Site

I have run into the following problem with Mac Users/Netscape 3.0 - when
viewing http://www.panasept.com/consumer.htm. They are unable to scroll
and part of the text and a graphics gets cut off (right after "The Case"
graphic and text). All browsers and operating systems seem to be fine...
Baffled...

Nina Kabatoff
FOCAL PRODUCTIONS "GET TO THE POINT" http://members.aol.com/focalpro
focal@intergate.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 16:43:59 -0500
From: Carl Jabido <case@dementia.org>
Subject: re: Copyright this!? was re: popping out of a frame with javascrip

>Which really begs the question - if I were to decide to use the
>self.parent.frames.length method and a setTimeout as opposed to calling the
>function by using onLoad in the BODY tag, would I have to hunt around to
>see if anybody else has done this before?

When it comes to program code, isn't it necessary to _patent_ it in
addition to copyrighting it? I mean, if what you want to do is protect
the algorithm, the process by which the program works, you'll have to
apply for a patent. If you only copyrighted the program code, then you'll
exclude people from using the name "letmeloose()" and the exact wording
of the code, but they'll be free to use the algorithm.

In otherwords, no one else can can copy and paste the program as he wrote
it (unless they include the copyright notice so he grants a license) but
they can copy the algorithm and rewrite it (even if it seems like
plagarism) because a patent is needed to protect the algorithm.

The US Patent and Trademark Office gives a good example: "A description
of a machine could be copyrighted as a writing, but this would only
prevent others from copying the description; it would not prevent others
from writing a description of their own or from making and using the
machine.

"The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the subject
matter of the writing."

>Is there a resource that will tell me if I am infringing any copyrights
>since apart from naming it "letmeloose()" it is quite likely that I would
>have used the same script is it not? after all - JavaScript is quite rigid
>at times.

There's no way to make a copyright resource because under US copyright
law, all original work is copyrighted from its inception. A copyright
notice isn't even required.

>For example, of the two main types of image rollovers that people use,
>maybe some chappy decided to copyright it - and maybe, just maybe, he was
>the first person to have written that set of instructions - though most
>probably it had been used a million times prior to his copyright - so I
>wonder, can one really copyright such basic functions in JavaScript.

My answer is no because copyright doesn't cover functionality. If on the
other hand, he applied and was granted a patent for his method of
creating image rollovers, we'd all have to pay him for using it. But
since it's just a copyright, you wouldn't be allowed to copy his code and
paste it into your program.

Hope I got all that right!
Carl
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:51:29 +0200
From: Hanan Cohen <hananc@bashan.co.il>
Subject: who would you like to kill

Shalom
Mr. Jay Luker has pointed us babblers to his site
http://www.whowouldyoukill.com

Today I had an argument with my son because I did not let him install
the game "Mortal Combat" on our family's computer. I have told him that
a game with killing real people is forbidden at our house.

Here in Israel, we are killing and being killed all the time with little
hope for this bloodshed to stop.

Two years ago we had a prime minister killed.

Please use your creativity for something else, not for killing people.

- --
Hanan Cohen
Bashan Systems - Jerusalem
Kibbutz Tamuz - Beit Shemesh

***Love and Peace***
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:36:09 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Baffled...Mac-Netscape 3.0

At 02:04 PM 2/10/98 -0800, Nina Kabatoff wrote:
[snip]
>I have run into the following problem with Mac Users/Netscape 3.0 - when
>viewing http://www.panasept.com/consumer.htm. They are unable to scroll
>and part of the text and a graphics gets cut off (right after "The Case"
>graphic and text). All browsers and operating systems seem to be fine...
>Baffled...
[snip]

I think I've found your problem. In your second TABLE tag you've got an
extra "TABLE" that seems to be causing trouble. You have:

Make it this and you should be OK as far as Mac NS3 goes:

As an aside, I would suggest confining the text on the page in a table of
its own; border-to-border text is a little hard to read.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:47:25 -0600
From: Kristina and Paul Kremer <over@spearedpeanut.com>
Subject: quick table problemo...

Hi!

I have been looking everywhere for a quick fix to this table problem I'm
having. If an of you have a few seconds, please take a look at this and
let me know if you know of a fix. I can't find one anywhere!!

http://www.spearedpeanut.com/homeinc/consumers/

Any help would be greatly appreciated, and a solution would be good for
other web designers to know as well.

Thanks,

- -Paul Kremer
The Speared Peanut Design Studio
http://www.spearedpeanut.com/
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:39:09 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: RE: JS Copyright Stuff

At 11:21 PM 2/9/98 -0800, Christopher wrote:
[snip]
><SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
>
></SCRIPT>
[snip]

In Chris' defense -- maybe I'm wrong here -- I don't think he was looking
to establish the full legality of a copyright as much as he was interested
in knowing where is code would be put to use.

I don't put any kind of copyright statement on any of my code mostly
because the demos I put up are generally only starting points, and not
"Plug 'n' Play" solutions. For the most part, if people are going to use
them they'll need to modify them to suit their needs. In the case where
someone uses my code and wants to credit me as the original author, that's
cool; but what I'm more interested in are the emails from people with URLs
of places where my demos helped them out.

For one thing, seeing my code in action usually gives me insight into ways
to improve it. This is far more valuable to a developer than any amount of
credit given from someone using their code.

To take a rather philosophical tangent:

In the long term it's more beneficial if this type of information is
publicly available so that we can all advance as a group. Hoarding
information doesn't benefit anyone. Just look at the development of the Web
in general to see how destructive it is. Most of the really creative work
was done early on when there was just a bunch of scientists and professors
working together on technology that was public domain. Now that corporate
interests have grabbed hold of the technology we're getting mired in all
kinds of crap.

Anyway . . . just call me a pinko commie.

- - Porter "Awaiting the 'pinko commie' remark flames" Glendinning

P.S. Just as a standing request related to the above message, if you do
find any of my demos useful and feel inclined to send me a URL of where you
made use of them, or even just a quick note, I would love to hear about it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:07:36 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: give it away

Porter wrote:

> In the long term it's more beneficial if this type of information is
> publicly available so that we can all advance as a group. Hoarding
> information doesn't benefit anyone.

Cheers. The more you give the more you get. Imagine not being able to
view others html source. It's the works of others that teach us the
most.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:33:42 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: quick table problemo...

At 04:47 PM 2/10/98 -0600, Kristina and Paul Kremer wrote:
[snip]
>http://www.spearedpeanut.com/homeinc/consumers/
[snip]

Paul,

The problem here is that, unlike the WIDTH attribute of the TABLE tag,
WIDTH in the IMG tag is not scaled to fit the available screen space. So
specifying WIDTH="100%" for an image makes that image as wide as the
current browser window, whether that fits on the screen or not. That's why
your table scrolls out the side of the window.

I've come up with an alternate approach using table cells with background
colors between the first and third images, instead of a second image, and
it seems to work OK. For an example, check out:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/pkremer.html

Hope this helps. :)
- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:08:58 +1030
From: rwilliams <rwilliams@webmedia.com.au>
Subject: Re: Alternative?

> >can't stand driving to a university to use a copy of Photoshop, crumble and
> >just _find a way to buy it._ There is no choice. There is no alternative.
> >_Get it._
>
> get a new visa....=)
>
I agree.

To ad reason to this, one day a zip disk will appear on your desk(Mac
format) from one the big design studios that your new client uses.
Everthing on that disk will be Photoshop, Freehand, Quark and/or
Illustrator.

that all ads up to one big limit on your new visa..... makes life
difficult for little guys(I've been there done that). Not to discourage
anyone, don't waste money on non mainstream products. In the long run it
is worth saving up to buy the real thing.

To all babblers: Have a great day!
- --
Richard Williams
Graphic Designer/Web Developer
WebMedia Australia Pty Ltd http://www.webmedia.com.au/webmedia
Ph. +61 08 8346 3888 Fax. +61 08 8346 3400
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:57:09 +1100
From: daniel keating <keeto@netinfo.com.au>
Subject: Re: Java versions of Plug Ins

Michael Wade wrote:
>
> I think that having a Java version of Flash or one that does streaming
> audio would be spectacular, as it would mean so much for the web.

a few points if I may:

- - There already is a flash java plugin although I don't think that it
does streaming audio. I don't actually think this is easy to do using
java if not totally impossible due to security considerations.

> I am only worried about compatibility issues. We all know how
> horrible it is between browsers now.

- - The Java compatability issues are for Java 1.1 not 1.0 or 1.02 which
is what came with version 3.0x of netscape and IE. Perhaps you were
thinking of JavaScript which is a totally different thing (and not a
programming language anyway).

> Imagine how long something like JAVA plug ins would take to download.

- - Less than 10 seconds at 26400 bps to load and start this is because
the ShockwaveFlash.class file is 1,184 bytes in size as Java is a very
compact programming language.

daniel keating:)

webpage <http://www.netinfo.com.au/~keeto>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:55:01 -0400
From: "James Morris" <jamorris@pond.com>
Subject: Re: JS Copyright Stuff

To take a rather philosophical tangent:

In the long term it's more beneficial if this type of information is
publicly available so that we can all advance as a group. Hoarding
information doesn't benefit anyone.

- -Absolutely. Henry Quadracci (of Quad Graphics fame) used to share
technology developed in-house with the rest of the print world on a regular
basis. His rational: That the real struggle wasn't between him and the next
printer, it was between print (as a medium for conveying information) and
Television, Radio, Movies, etc. As far as the technology has come in the
last few years we're still in an infant industry. The healthiest goal of any
infant is to just plain gain wieght.

Jim Morris
Web Producer
jamorris@pond.com
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:13:24 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Re: Baffled...Mac-Netscape 3.0

I had the same problem, but earlier in the document. When I opened the
source of the page in Dreamweaver, it reported many 'unclosed' and
'overlapping' tags, plus some 'unnecessary' <td> tags. When I let DW fix
this the problem went away and the page looked about the same.

If can email the new source if you like.

Chris

>Re: Panasept Site
>
>I have run into the following problem with Mac Users/Netscape 3.0 - when
>viewing http://www.panasept.com/consumer.htm. They are unable to scroll
>and part of the text and a graphics gets cut off (right after "The Case"
>graphic and text). All browsers and operating systems seem to be fine...
>Baffled...
>
>ina Kabatoff
>FOCAL PRODUCTIONS "GET TO THE POINT" http://members.aol.com/focalpro
>focal@intergate.bc.ca

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

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End of babble-digest V1 #193
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