Babble v1 194

babble-digest Tuesday, February 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 194

In this issue:
Re: quick table problemo...
re: sound without java
your comments on Photoshop alternatives...
Lots of answers in one post...
A Basic Text Problem
who would you like to kill?
Loading variable pages into a new window with frames?
Re: who would you like to kill?
Re: Loading variable pages into a new window with frames?
Re: popping out of a frame with javascript
I'd like to educate John Shelley
what 'penultimate' really means/alternative software....
Helvetica wanted !
unbelievable URL mis/redirection...
Re: Copyright infringement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:18:59 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: quick table problemo...

At 04:47 PM 2/10/98 -0600, Kristina and Paul Kremer wrote:
[snip]
>http://www.spearedpeanut.com/homeinc/consumers/
[snip]

Revised version using the three images instead of colored table cells at:
http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/pkremer2.html

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:23:01 -0500
From: "Victor Chan" <cynical@stigma.com>
Subject: re: sound without java

>Question
>
>I would like to include a small soundfile (aif) in one of my pages. It
>should automatically play as soon as the page has loaded and it should
>loop.
>I tried it with the <embed>-tag but netscape had to start java to play
>the file.
>
>Does anyone know a way to automatically play a sound without having to
>start java?
>
>thanks for your help, Olivier.

Olivier -

I learned that Netscape loads Java as a precursor to *any* plugin. I
discovered
this from some people after I noticed that Java was loading everytime NS
seemed
to encounter Shockwave. In fact, it loads Java and then it initiates its
plugins. I don't know the technical reason why but it does. Therefore, there
really isn't a workaround.

regards,
Victor

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:55:04 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...

You wrote:

"There is no alternative. Photoshop is penultimate. If you can't
afford
it, save money until you can buy it. If you're bad with money, beg. If
you can't stand begging, have all of your relatives chip in and buy it
for you as an (Xmas) gift. If you can't stand asking for an early Xmas
gift, go to a university's graphics art lab and start using it there.
If you can't stand driving to a university to use a copy of Photoshop,
crumble and just _find a way to buy it._ There is no choice. There is
no alternative. _Get it._"

And I reply:

Perhaps you didn't mean to but your answer came off as supremely
arrogant. Maybe you were trying to be funny, I don't know. Yes Photoshop
is an incredible tool, but it is not the only one.

There are, in fact, alternatives to Photoshop. On the windows side of
things, Paint Shop Pro immediately comes to mind. A lot of good, even
excellent work, is being done with PSP. To say that Photoshop is the
only way to get your work done is insulting to people doing creative
work with other programs. I guess you are forgetting that it is the
craftsperson, not necessarily their tools.

While people are begging, borrowing and stealing to get the money to buy
expensive/over-priced software, WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST THEY DO? SIT AROUND
WITH THEIR THUMB UP THEIR BUMS or maybe break the law by using pirate
software, perhaps? Or maybe, just maybe, they can get a low-cost,
well-working alternative, do some work, make some money, and then go out
and buy Photoshop?

I myself own just about every 'creative' type of Windows program on the
market including the high-cost ones like Photoshop, Illustrator,
Director, Premiere, etc... I am lucky that I am able to afford this. I
estimate that I personally spent $10,000 on software alone last year. I
also spent a further $5000 on books and magazines. My place of
employment provides me every 'creative' Macintosh program on the market.
Last year, they spent hundreds of thousands on software and much more
than that on hardware. They can afford it.

Making the good money that I do, I also recognize that not everyone is
able to afford some so-called professional tools. And I don't disrespect
them for not having deep pockets. Students can get some discounts it is
true, but not everyone can. And sometimes, even with discounts, specials
and sales, things are out of reach. Temporarily.

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:54:11 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Lots of answers in one post...

> From: Junior van der Stel <junior@limage-dangereuse.nl>
> Subject: Re: Pre-Load script Needed
>

Make two frames, one 100% and the other *, which will be invisible. Load the
page(s) you want to preload in the invisible frame. This lets you preload an
entire page, not just one image.

> From: Olivier Heitz <olivier@kabeljau.ch>
> Subject: sound without java

> I tried it with the <embed>-tag but netscape had to start java to play
> the file.
>
> Does anyone know a way to automatically play a sound without having to
> start java?
>

The audio plugin for Netscape (LiveAudio or something...check your plugins
folder) is based on Java, thus when it loads the plugin to play sounds, it
loads Java...

> From: "Seeman, Joey" <SeemanJ@isd.flightsafety.com>
> Subject: Copyright infringement
>
> My co-worker bought a new video card the other day and was surprised to
> see an image that had been lifted from his personal web site (it's a
> gallery of his 3D work), without his knowledge or consent

They have plain broken the law, simple as that. He does not have to apply for
a 'real' copyright, use of the (c) symbol is sufficient. In fact, he does not
even need this, merely having done the works means that the copyright is his,
for fifty years. (seventy five in some places). If you feel it is worth it, go
after them. I would at least contact the people and see what their reaction
is. It may be that their graphic design company/department has passed off your
friends image as their own work without the knowledge of the video card manufacturer.

> From: Hanan Cohen <hananc@bashan.co.il>
> Subject: who would you like to kill
>

> Today I had an argument with my son because I did not let him install
> the game "Mortal Combat" on our family's computer....
> Here in Israel, we are killing and being killed all the time with little
> hope for this bloodshed to stop...
> Please use your creativity for something else, not for killing people.
>

Here Here Mr Cohen. I too find violent 'shoot/kill everything' games quite
abhorent. Although I played many in my youth, the increasing 'realism' and
viciousness, not to mention my own sense of spirituality, now leaves me
feeling quite off. I don't have any desire to grab a chainsaw or machine gun
and blast everyone/thing that moves, especially not for fun! I can only
imagine how someone who has had to live with the reality of violence daily
would feel about simulating it for 'entertainment'. This is not a call for
censorship, merely for conscious choice. However, it is always harder to
create something than to destroy it. What is hardest is watching someone else
destroy something you have created, whether a little child watching as a bully
destroys his artistic efforts, or a father watching as militant gunmen destroy
his neighborhood, home, and family life.

Caleb Fuller
analog creations
email@calebfuller.com
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:51:00 +1000
From: Antony Richards <antony@mcmann-tate.com.au>
Subject: A Basic Text Problem

Hello all,

Great list! Thankyou all for teaching me so much.

I'm new to the development game, so if this seems a bit trivial please
accept my apologies.

I'll take my problem two steps back. I've developed a few pages on a Mac
with NN3 and NN4. I've also got IE3, and I find that all the pages come out
fine. I thought that due to using different browsers I was covered, but to
my dismay, when I viewed them on an NT box with NN3, the text was larger
than what I specified, and all the graphics I put together were pushed
vertically apart. I figure it's because of the screen resolution between PC
and Mac.

Is there any way of specifying text size in my code to comply with PC
displays so that this problem is avoided, or is it back to the 'ole drawing
board?

Thanks.

Antony.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:19:23 -0500
From: John Shelley <js@gdnctr.com>
Subject: who would you like to kill?

ref: who would you like to kill?
to: hanan cohen

Shalom
Mr. Jay Luker has pointed us babblers to his site
http://www.whowouldyoukill.com

Today I had an argument with my son...

best not to argue with someone wiser than you, hanan...

...because I did not let him install
the game "Mortal Combat" on our family's computer. I have told him that
a game with killing real people is forbidden at our house.

a game is not real, hanan. ask you son; he'll set you straight.

Here in Israel, we are killing and being killed all the time with little

hope for this bloodshed to stop.

if you didn't have a lowlife and coward like
'benny nit-wit-yahoo' for a whatever he is, your gov't would
have wasted those stinking towel-headed arab filth
a long time ago and *owned* the place.

Two years ago we had a prime minister killed.

welcome to the real world; we've lost several ourselves, as have
most countries. get over it.

Please use your creativity for something else, not for killing people.

like what? get over it, hanan

- - --
Hanan Cohen
Bashan Systems - Jerusalem
Kibbutz Tamuz - Beit Shemesh

- --
___john shelley____________________________

"It is not easy to walk the path of
spirituality when you are suspicious
of those who arrange the steppingstones."

__________________________www.gdnctr.com___

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:09:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Sean <c643436@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Loading variable pages into a new window with frames?

I have a question that I was hoping somebody could help me with. I've
checked a number of online sites, but they did not deal with this:

Here is the problem:

I am working on an online text book with an accompanying syllabus. The
text book is set in frames (because it is a vast amount of material) and
opens up to a title page in the frame that is called "main". The syllabus
will include one page with a list of readings for each week of the course.

My employer wants a way to make the list of readings link to those
sections of the text, so that when you click on them a new browser opens
up to the text book, with the "main" page displaying the section of text
instead of the title page.

So, for instance, if the link says chapter 1.2, clicking on it will take
you to section 1.2, but the page will be inside the frames of the book to
allow for future navigation through the rest of the book.

If anyone could help me with this one, I would really appreciate it.

Sean Fuller
c643436@showme.missouri.edu
Columbia, MO

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:11:17 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: who would you like to kill?

At 10:19 PM 2/10/98 -0500, John Shelley wrote:
>Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:19:23 -0500
>From: John Shelley <js@gdnctr.com>
>Organization: John Shelley's Garden Center & Nursery, Inc.
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
>To: "babble-digest@verso.com" <babble-digest@verso.com>
>Subject: who would you like to kill?
>Sender: owner-babble@highfive.com
>Reply-To: John Shelley <js@gdnctr.com>
>
>ref: who would you like to kill?
>to: hanan cohen
[obnoxious waste of the list's time mercifully snipped]

Well, that's not the sort of response I'd expect from the owner of a
"Garden Center & Nursery." Who pooped in your begonias? Really, I mean get
a life, and stop to smell the roses.

Hanan, take no notice of him. I, for one, agree with you.

- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:33:36 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Loading variable pages into a new window with frames?

At 10:09 PM 2/10/98 -0600, Sean wrote:
[snip]
>My employer wants a way to make the list of readings link to those
>sections of the text, so that when you click on them a new browser opens
>up to the text book, with the "main" page displaying the section of text
>instead of the title page.
[snip]

Sean,

Take a look at the demo posted in my workshop called "Loading Many
Different Content Files into a Single Frameset Document by URL." It
involves passing parameters appended to the link URLs, and putting a piece
of JavaScript code in the frameset document to receive those parameters.
You can find it at:

http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/singleFrameset/

My demo passes in two file names to load into two frames, but there's no
reason you couldn't dumb it down to pass only one for the "main" frame.

Hope this helps. :)
- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:25:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: popping out of a frame with javascript

Dr Glendinning:

You continue to impress me.

I actually like the 'special effect' of having my page 'burst through' the
container (especially when it's someone else's container), but you're
absolutely right to point out the difference in effect between your
solution and mine.

Your treatment calls less attention to itself as a web stunt and is
therefore more dignified.

(Minor quibble: Mies van der Rohe actually said, "God is in the details.")

***
Porter wrote:

There is a minor difference between my solution and Jeffrey's. Jeffrey's
will load the page in question into the frameset and then break it out;
that is, it will download all the images, text, and other page content
before running the onLoad event handler. Mine, on the other hand, will
break the page out of the frameset and then begin to load it, since
JavaScript in the HEAD is executed before the page loads.

This isn't a reason to use one over the other -- they both provide the
desired functionality -- you should just be aware of the difference,
especially in the case that you're using this for some kind of effect
rather than to ensure that no one else loads your pages in their frameset.

The devil's in the details.

- - - Porter
***

Porter's solution:
<HEAD>
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE=JavaScript>
if (top != self) { top.location = self.location; }
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD>

Jeffrey's web stunt:
<BODY onLoad="if (self != top) top.location = self.location" etc.
etc....>

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"Too American." - The Greek Connection

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:47:41 +0000
From: Peter Newton <glowing@earthlink.net>
Subject: I'd like to educate John Shelley

>if you didn't have a lowlife and coward like
>'benny nit-wit-yahoo' for a whatever he is, your gov't would
>have wasted those stinking towel-headed arab filth
>a long time ago and *owned* the place.

John Shelley,
look man, I take huge offense at your recent post. I don't care what
the subject matter for a mailing list happens to be, I want to cast my
vote loud and clear that there is no room for racism on this list or
anywhere else online. I really want to hear your opinions on design,
javascript, interface and occasionally world politics but when you lower
yourself to this kind of hate mongering all I can say is: Take yourself
somewhere else!!! There is no room here for people who resort to racist
slander or who encourage killing people for their beliefs. Period.
Get to know a few Arabs and Jews, maybe invite them over for a little
garden party, expand your mind. You'll find that racist slogans describe
little of an entire nation and nothing of an individual mind.

- -Peter Newton

__________________________

email:glowing@earthlink.net
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:14:27 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: what 'penultimate' really means/alternative software....

According the dictionary, the word PENULTIMATE, as in the gem "Photoshop
is penultimate" actually means, and I quote, "next to the last" and
anything next to last". The sentence "Photoshop is penultimate" actually
means that Photoshop is not too good and that it would be the last
choice of something to use. Hmmm...

In the rush to send me email and condemn the use of alternative software
(Color It for Macs and Paint Shop Pro for Windows, etc...), I think some
people are missing a very important point. And I am not pointing at
anyone here, just making a general statement...

The point being that not everyone needs to use, wants to use, can afford
to use, software packages that cost 200, 300, 500 or a thousand dollars
or more. In the mean time, these people need to use something. Typically
these programs also work well on computers that run on less ram.

Don't forget that a lot of young people are also involved in Web
design/development, and some of what they do is amazing. I'm not sure
how many parents could afford to fork over 500 smackers for a single
program for their kid. They might cough up 50 bucks though, especially
if the kid mows lawns (no software, can't make sites yet) and gets half.

Not everyone works for some big Web design house so maybe disks with
Illustrator and Photoshop aren't going to be immediately slappped on
their desks by big time paying clients. At least not yet. But they can
dream of it, big headache that it actually is, sometimes, if only they
knew...

Anyway, I digress... A person who is starting out with their own little
Web design business could also get to work with less start up costs and
by saving money from small jobs, could work their way up to stuff like
Photoshop for the 'big' jobs.

In fact, the majority of Web development is not done by these big mega
agencies. Often they were late to the plate anyway. They did other
things, like 4-colour magazines and annual reports and all of a sudden
noticed that small companies and small businesses were doing Web design.

I bet if we took a survey of people on this list, very few of them are
working for these large Web development houses.

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:37:06 +0100
From: matjaz@vizija.si (Matjaz Vrecar)
Subject: Helvetica wanted !

hi there !

I need this two fonts (TTF format):

- - Helvetica New Heavy Condense
- - Helvetica New Condense Roman

It's urgent. Thanks!

kesl

http://www.inetia.com/kesl --+-- ICQ uin: 1744829
inetia.com, interactive media agency
info@inetia.com, http://www.inetia.com
Vizija d.o.o., Ljubljanska 42, 3000 Celje, Slovenia
Tel.: +386 63 452100, Fax.: +386 63 451390
info@vizija.si, http://www.vizija.si

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:36:50 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: unbelievable URL mis/redirection...

I read a little article, forwarded to me by my boss, about how the movie
"The Replacement Killers" site was supposed to be the first site. The
title was "DHTML Site Plugs Replacement Killers".

The Replacement Killers is said to be the first film Web site developed
using Dynamic HTML, and can be cruised with both Internet Explorer 4.0
and Netscape 4.0. The technology reportedly allows for animation and
sound with a smaller download than other methods of animation currently
being used on the Internet.

Special effects, including roll-overs, wipes, timeline based animation,
and showing and hiding layers, rely on the combination of layers and
JavaScript. The site also features a Shockwave Flash soundtrack, which
enables overlapping sound play synchronized to the animation.

Naturally, I launched NN4 and typed in 'replacementkillers'. You would
not believe where I ended up. I was completely floored. I have to wonder
if Sony knows. And what could be done about this sort of thing, from a
legal standpoint...

Try clicking on this link and see for yourselves (and check out what
they've called the images)...

http://www.replacementkillers.com/

By the way, Sony link for the movie is

http://www.spe.sony.com/movies/replacementkillers/

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:47:38 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Miguel_Fuentes_Garc=EDa?= <mfuentes@seresco.es>
Subject: Re: Copyright infringement

Recently, (9/97), Joe Gillespie and Sarah R. Yoffa, wrote an interesting
article for highfive feature section.
It don't fit exactly with the video card sample lifted, but I think it
would be very helpful for everyone.

http://www.highfive.com/feature/past/feature_09.97.html

- ----------------------------------------------------
Miguel Fuentes
mailto:mfuentes@las.es

Check the exhibition:
http://www.seresco.es/elias
- ----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #194
****************************

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