Art Thread

1520. RobertDente - Jan. 8, 1998 - 5:55 PM PDT
senencio-
Let's see if I can boil down what I see into a decent description:
I see the calligraphic period of Marden as tracks or tracings in an imagined, expansive space. After gazing at them awhile, I start to feel this space via the tracks/lines (and to some degree the petimenti) with the changes in pressure, direction, and value of his brushwork. In many ways the new work is about a journey through space. Color has been dropped by the wayside to some degree (which I really miss, because I adore his color sense).
Winter's new work (imo) is dealing with trackings and tracings also, but in a very compressed space. (Kind of like a microscope as opposed to Marden's telescope.) I get the sense that Winters is abandoning his precious natural forms for a kind of microspic energy structure--which is now more about patterns and pattern recognition than surface textures. Color has taken on a new importance because it differentiates the various layers of compressed patterns.
Anyway, that's my take on Winters, but let's face it, abstract art is always a Rorschach Test!

1521. RobertDente - Jan. 8, 1998 - 6:03 PM PDT
Brice Marden's Cold Mountain Series

1522. RobertDente - Jan. 8, 1998 - 7:40 PM PDT
Terry Winters New Work

1523. RobertDente - Jan. 8, 1998 - 7:41 PM PDT
...Terry Winter's New Work

1524. RobertDente - Jan. 8, 1998 - 7:43 PM PDT
OY!

1525. senecio - Jan. 9, 1998 - 6:32 AM PDT
Robert, what you say is quite suggestive. I was referring to just one aspect: the gift some artists have of being capable of drawing a line which is seductive, telling and charged with energy at every point of its trajectory from here to there.
You either have it or don't have it.
IMO Schiele epitomizes that gift.

1526. wabbit - Jan. 9, 1998 - 8:48 AM PDT
Robert-
I saw these paintings a couple months ago. You are right about the microscopic space, but I wasn't impressed with most of them. A few of them got very muddy in the middle and the lines disappeared into a mess. A couple others just don't work as all-over compositions (the corners, for instance, could be cropped out and the painting becomes more interesting). The lines themselves don't have the finesse of Marden. The color combinations were good, especially the paintings where the colors were limited to two or three. If this is a transitional phase, I'll be interested to see the next work.

1527. RobertDente - Jan. 9, 1998 - 2:59 PM PDT
senecio- Oh yes I agree--Schiele's line is super-charged.
wabbit- Thanks. I was flying on instruments only--I've not seen the the Winters in the "skin." Some other friends (I also respect) have come to the same conclusion. But now that I'm out ofMrs. Lawlor's class I tend to dream about art a lot more.

1528. wabbit - Jan. 10, 1998 - 8:16 AM PDT
Hey, nice paperclip sculpture at your elbow!

1529. RobertDente - Jan. 11, 1998 - 1:16 PM PDT
wabbit-
My screen still freezes up 90% of the time when I try to enter this thread, so let me take advantage of this 10% opportunity to say: The "paperclip" was a logo for LORING STUDIOS, a franchised photography chain in the 50's and 60's that ran specials for annual children's photos. (Gone with the wind like so many companies today.) Mrs' Lawlor's quote was pulled directly from my report card. She resented the fact that she bored me to distraction, so she knew exactly how to make my life miserable at home as well as in school. I'm sure that many people can relate to this kind of pedigogical abuse. What a planet!

1530. wabbit - Jan. 12, 1998 - 2:52 PM PDT
I never had a cool paperclip logo in *my* school pictures - WWAAAAHHHH!™
I do remember a home ec. teacher complaining to my mother that I never used a pattern in sewing class (I made my own). Sigh.
Hey, what does anyone think about renaming this thread - maybe Visual and Performing Arts? Would we get more posts?

1531. ScottLoar - Jan. 12, 1998 - 2:58 PM PDT
I doubt if renaming the thread would garner more posts as you several people are quite knowledgeable and express yourselves well. The level of discussion you've maintained on narrow subjects does not encourage gratuitous comments by passers-by.

1532. RobertDente - Jan. 12, 1998 - 5:43 PM PDT
(Another 10% Netscape Navigator opportunity!)

Scott- Should we dumb it down?

1533. patsyrolph - Jan. 12, 1998 - 9:14 PM PDT
Gratuitous Post:
Hey this is my favorite place to lurk. I am particularly fond of the links which are seriously cool. I know more about art than the "I know what I like" position but this is one of the few Threads where I often learn something new.

Wabbitt: I did receive it. Have you gotten my e or snail mail?

1534. ScottLoar - Jan. 13, 1998 - 7:12 AM PDT
re #1532: No, I did not suggest you "dumb it down" nor can an intelligent person infer so. Reading the bulk of the current dialogue does not impel one to cast superfluous comments but rather read the posts (as admitted in #1533) - excepting this pointed response to your brusque question.

1535. labarjare - Jan. 13, 1998 - 9:14 AM PDT
Scott - in most other threads I think you indeed would be correct in taking Robert's response as being brusque. Not here nor from him. A civil thread and a most civil person. I would bet heavily that Robert was being earnest in that he would like to see more participation in this thread and is wondering if a more generalized discussion of various aspects of "the arts" would help to bring this about.

1536. ScottLoar - Jan. 13, 1998 - 9:22 AM PDT
Labarjare: I'll take your word for it and retire my last comment. But, no, more audience participation does not a great show make. This thread is one of the few that maintains a consistently high level of dialogue.

1537. RobertDente - Jan. 13, 1998 - 10:33 AM PDT
lab-Bullseye, and thanks for defending what little honor I have.

Scott- (Gee, you're as sensitive as I am!) Sorry. I was sincere because I know how insecure I get when I'm around those economic wonks you know where...

wabbit et al- An Excerpt from the recent Robert Hughes/Time Magazine piece regarding the MOMA/Wally problem:

"So why did Morgenthau step in? Dr. Klaus Schroder, the Leopold Museum's managing director, suspects that behind the D.A.'s subpoena lies the hand of New York's Republican Senator Alfonse D'Amato, who is seeking support during this election year for his bill on property restitution to the heirs of the Holocaust, which passed the Senate in November and awaits House action. "It is of course political," said Schroder. He dismisses the Reif and Bondi claims as invalid, as the statute of limitations has expired, and vehemently defends Rudolf Leopold as a good-faith purchaser. Whether anything but rhetorical heat and resentment will come out of this whole debacle remains to be seen. At worst it could do severe damage to the loan system on which
museums depend, while adding very little to the principles of restitution of stolen property. But that's what can happen when grandstanding pols and D.A.s get in on emotionally supercharged issues that ought to be resolved with tact and studious neutrality.
--With Reporting by Massimo Calabresi /Vienna and Daniel S. Levy /New York "

The Reif mentioned is none other than The NYT's Rita Reif. And Dumb'ato makes me embarrassed to say where my ancestors come from!

1538. senecio - Jan. 13, 1998 - 10:37 AM PDT
This isn't the greatest example of Cy Twombly's line but it should do. I may find other examples. Scott, may I encourage you to participate as you see fit and when you see fit? I haven't been posting for some months now but in yestermonths some of the most lively contributions came from phillipdavid whom I gather still posts here now and then (you there Phil? Hi!) and professed to be neither in the I-know-what-I-like category nor in Yeah-Kiefer-I-known-what-you-mean or whatever other category some of the rest of us may be seen as falling.

1539. labarjare - Jan. 13, 1998 - 12:14 PM PDT
Morgenthau of course is a Democrat (who ran a dismal race for Governor against Nelson Rockefeller way back when), and even though he takes great pride in running a non-political office, I think the D'Amato theory is plausible if only that Morgenthau didn't want to have the highly visible and outrageously indignant cries that inevitably would have spewed forth from D'Amato had Morgenthau not acted as he did. A bad decision, especially since the Leopold had already announced that it would submit to "binding arbitration". Of course, that could still be the result but perhaps pursuant to more detailed agreements/contracts that will now be hammered out while the Wally is captive here in NYC.

Scott - I too was going to encourage you to post here, since I know from your posts elsewhere that you have lively and interesting views, but senecio beat me to the punch.

1540. ScottLoar - Jan. 13, 1998 - 1:51 PM PDT
I try to be neither coward in war nor laggard in love but as of yet I've no reason to clear my throat here. Please, proceed.

1541. RobertDente - Jan. 13, 1998 - 3:03 PM PDT
Scott- Sorry again, but would you mind translating the above. I think the problem is that *I* have trouble understanding *your* posts. Are you implying that clearing your throat is the equivalent of: (a) a misunderstanding so please forget about it, (b) an apology, (c) a participatory post about art, (d) a nervous tick, (e) you were about to type something silly as I'm now doing or (f) none of the above?

1542. ScottLoar - Jan. 13, 1998 - 5:02 PM PDT
"Clearing one's throat" to announce one's presence, tantamount to a superfluous comment by me. I promise that if I have something of value I will post it.

In truth I live in Chicago and failed to catch the Renoir exhibit but can testify that Chicagoans are crazy about French Impressionists. Not even Frank Lloyd Wright has a greater hold on their imaginations, or Sullivan, and we daily see plenty of works by those two.

1543. RobertDente - Jan. 13, 1998 - 5:14 PM PDT
Scott- Thanks! I often suffer with the artist's worst affliction: a misplaced imagination.

1544. RobertDente - Jan. 14, 1998 - 8:05 AM PDT
senecio, et al: A question: Does anyone feel (as I do) that Twombly owes a debt of gratitude to the early path of Jean Dubuffet--his work, ideas and his appreciation for Art Brut, art by the insane, Outsider Art, children's art? I can't help but wonder if Twombly would be as appreciated as much today had it not been for the contributions of these exemplary noncomformists. BTW, I'm a bigger fan of Twombly's sculpture than his painting.

1545. webfeet - Jan. 14, 1998 - 9:36 AM PDT
The play "Bees in Honey Drown" is why some of the best theater is now off_Broadway. This social satire, reminiscent of Evelyn Waugh's "Vile Bodies," revolves around the character Alexa Vere de Vere, a too-witty, too-clever, Fabulous Somebody who casts a spell over a young, gay writer, lured by the glamour of the downtown art world she represents, with her dazzling repartee and generous gifts with the hope that he will write a screenplay of her life. After brioche breakfasts at the Royalton, first class trips to LA, and a venture to the suit department at Saks, he is about to discover, through a devilish plot twist, that all is not what it appears.

Anymore and I'll spoil it. It is fast-paced comedy and the wit flies off the stage like sparks, thanks to the brilliant dialogue written by Douglas Carter Beane and the supernaturally gifted J. Smith Cameron, who has been labeled the Queen of the East Village Drama Scene, who plays Alexa Vere de Vere. I saw her perform a few years ago in "Owners" a play by Caryl Churchill and have followed her career ever since. It is often said that really talented actors have a certain presence when they walk on the stage, but J. Smith Cameron is like the Aurora Boralis before us, she is is something of a phenomenon and is absolutely captivating to watch. Her dynamic intensity bounces off the other actors like elecrolytes.

"Bees," "Mojo" and "Goose Pimples" written by Mike Leigh which I've yet to see, are among the best shows in town. If you're into "Titanic" the musical, on the other hand, there is no hope for you.

1546. RobertDente - Jan. 15, 1998 - 4:29 AM PDT
FYI Department:

TONIGHT on Carlie Rose: Richard Meier, Architect (The Getty Museum) (hour)

1547. senecio - Jan. 15, 1998 - 8:22 AM PDT
Robert, while I can see some important connections between Dubuffet and Twombly, I don't *feel* they are part of the same stream. It's hard to put in words. Perhaps it has to do with the sensuous versus the imaginative. Both artists evoke at first sight the art of the child, the insane. But it is, I believe, for different reasons. Twombly is interested in the strong sensuous appeal of very primary elements such as line, blot, a smear of plain color, thickness, texture. He handles such elements (ostensibly) as if he were a child, but what a sage child! In that sense he reminds me of Klee. Dubuffet is also interested in textures and line, but more than anything he is attracted by the power of elementary imagination, which is elementary figuration. When he ends up by painting pure texture it is by a process of immersion in the figurative.

1548. marjoribanks - Jan. 15, 1998 - 9:36 AM PDT
"Both artists evoke at first sight the art of the child, the insane."

I have to say it. Viewing Twombly at the MOMA has brought these thoughts to my head again and again- charlatan, faker, farcical poseur.

Perhaps one of you Arts Thread mavens could enlighten me as to the worth of his "contributions" because to me it just looks like he got away with some horrific rubbish. I certainly object to the "sage" label utilized by senecio.

1549. marjoribanks - Jan. 15, 1998 - 9:48 AM PDT
I have to admit that the Twombly work linked earlier to this thread (by senecio) is not nearly as bad as the paintings on display at the MOMA, but hell, I still see no "there" there.

1550. labarjare - Jan. 15, 1998 - 10:00 AM PDT
Marj - umm, I am sure that someone else will respond to you, but would you take a peek at Home for the Holidays in a minute or two?

1551. senecio - Jan. 15, 1998 - 2:15 PM PDT
Marj, Twombly was kind of an acquired taste for me, like sushi. Not that it took me long to acquire the taste, but the first few Twomblys I saw I did not care at all for them. Thereafter, I have rarely failed to be visually moved and touched by a Twombly. Whatever else he is he's certainly not a faker or a charlatan. I would say Basquiat might deserve such epitets or at least that's how I feel regarding his work.

But I doubt there is any enlightening to be tried about Twombly. In the end it is a very personal response to an artist who, handles the simplest of elements in a very personal (and I believe, telling) way.

1552. senecio - Jan. 15, 1998 - 2:26 PM PDT
Can't resist posting this drawing by the sage child par excellence

1553. labarjare - Jan. 15, 1998 - 2:37 PM PDT
marj - the next time you are in D.C., take a look at the Twomblys in the Philips Collection. You might nod instead of shake.

senecio - this is a bit of a stretch, but whenever I see a Basquiat (and ask, umm strictly out of curiosity, the price therefor), I think of The Horse's Mouth. This is not a reaction unique to seeing Basquiats, however.

1554. senecio - Jan. 15, 1998 - 2:45 PM PDT
This is one of the most impressive Twomblys I've seen. It was shown at the Sao Paulo Biennal, in 1996. It is actually a tryptic, but the web page shows the three components separately together with other Twombly pieces. But if you change the number 17 in the site address to 18, once you get the link, and then to 19, you'll be able to see the other two parts. (Likewise, by changing to numbers from 1 to 16 you'll see Twombly pieces in that Biennal)

1555. phillipdavid - Jan. 15, 1998 - 6:31 PM PDT
Hi senecio.

I click in here infrequently nowdays, but your name lured me in and I have been enriched once again by your links, thoughts, and tatstes.

I originally clicked from 17 to 16, and then to 18 -- I had a completely differnt tryptic in mind at first! And it was about to generate some very interesting comments, hahaha. But I went back and looked at 17, 18, 19 --I still wish I could all three together. Very powerful.

Allow me a little totally amatuer free association upon first looking at that Twombly: The scraggly line in 17 brought to mind a fishing line, and the violet-purplish colors and hues brought to mind active life --uneasy, turbulent, swishing and surging waves of of very active, alive, striving life. Life fishing, in short. But a troubled life, not at ease. Then in 18, what grabbed my attention was the splotch of black at the bottom -- ugly, dirty, negagtivity, but still held in check and contained (although not really, because the water, life, has been mared, polluted). Something ugly has despoiled the water -- the essence is poluted, sadly.

And then in 19 I see calm, repose, old age, a settling down. But it is not pure, clean -- does not have a good feeling to it - although I don't know why. What I relate this vision of the water or sea to is Turner's powerful paintings of nature's awesome power. But Twombly doesn't conjur up nature in my mind; it instead conjurs up man's inner nature, his inner space. I don't see grand, sweeping power of pure essence as I do in Turner. Instead I see an unclean inner landscape, black jagged ugliness, polluted and despoiled, (although small in scope and infection in the middle painting, nevertheless ugly and nasty).

They are not happy colors, but rather troubling, although the burnish light brown does have an earthly feel -- and thus quite natural. But the little black patch and violet-purplish streaks set the whole tone for all three paintings.

End of free-verse, for what

1556. phillipdavid - Jan. 15, 1998 - 6:41 PM PDT
Hi RobertDente,

I just scrolled backand saw your kid picture. A very telling expression there!

I don't feel sorry for your pedagogical abuse, but I do feel sorry such a youngster had to wear a coat and tie! I'll bet you never wear a tie now. Am I right?

1557. RobertDente - Jan. 15, 1998 - 8:59 PM PDT
pd - Hi and yes, I hate anything around my neck! I thought you might like this after your Twombly "Rorschach" ...(A superb response btw!)

Fernando Pessoa
A Shrug of the Shoulders

We generally give to our ideas about the unknown the color of our notions about what we do know: If we call death a sleep it's because it has the appearance of sleep; if we call death a new life, it's because it seems different from life. We build our beliefs and hopes out of these small misunderstandings with reality and live off husks of bread we call cakes, the way poor children play at being happy. But that's how all life is; at least that's how the particular way of life generally known as civilization is. Civilization consists in giving an innapropriate name to something and then dreaming what results from that. And in fact the false name and the true dream do create a new reality. The object really does become other, because we have made it so. We manufacture realities. We use the raw materials we always used but the form lent it by art effectively prevents it from remaining the same. A table made out of pinewood is a pinetree but it is also a table. We sit down at the table not at the pinetree. ...

An excerpt from "The Book of Disquiet," written in the 1920's, first published in 1982 by Atica in Lisbon.

1558. phillipdavid - Jan. 15, 1998 - 9:47 PM PDT
I like that, RobertDente. (I also liked the Rilke quote you gave me a while back.) Thank you.

"We manufacture realities." I could make some real hay out of that in the Religion Thread!

1559. marjoribanks - Jan. 16, 1998 - 7:04 AM PDT
Senecio, others,

Thanks for the links and also thank you for your "defence" of Twombly. I must admit that the tryptic is quite impressive, there is most certainly some "there" there. From what I have seen so far, Twombly achieved something lasting when he used color in his work, there is subtlety in his use of it, as well as meaning.

The MOMA has two very large canvasses of his placed side by side with pencil scribblings randomly distributed on them. Part of my antipathy probably comes from the fact that the very penmanship is crude and awkward- but part of it really is the apparent absence of thought, theme or theory. They are nothing, simply an absence.

I have looked at them several times, and they leave me cold, so cold that he is the only artist who inspires epithets of the kind I referred to above. Clearly, the epithets are not particularly deserved and I will give his works another chance. This weekend, I'll be in DC and will surely make a point of checking out his work at the National Gallery.

1560. RobertDente - Jan. 16, 1998 - 2:26 PM PDT
Marjori -

Stick to your pistolas! Twombly flops often.

1561. RobertDente - Jan. 17, 1998 - 9:46 AM PDT
RE:1547. senecio - Jan. 15, 1998 - 8:22 AM PST

senecio - As usual, your astute observations are on the mark, but at the risk of splitting hairs, I think you misread my post about Dubuffet. I was talking about some of the art historical contributions that may have lead to an appreciation of Twombly today. You're right of course that Dubuffet *is* in a different “stream” and your figurative point is accurate. I think however you're incorrect about Twombly and Klee. Dubuffet is significantly closer to Klee in the stream bed because of their figurative affinities. Twombly, on the other hand, is closer to Dubuffet regarding material/mediums and especially in the realm of Gestalt experience of surface qualities. Antoni Tàpies is another wonderful example of this kind of Gestalt visionary--a better artist than Twombly also, imo!
I'm still often sloppy with my writing and I'm sure I've put my foot in it again somehow. I had the time and everyone posted such wonderful comments that the enthusiasm and differing views moved my molecules. I hope that this sort of repartee is helpful to those people like Marjori, who are on the fence. There is a lot of mystification and snob appeal that makes talking about art odious.
Oh one last thing, I put the Twomblys together in the order you gave us, but they don't seem to work well together as a mural-- am I missing something?

1562. senecio - Jan. 18, 1998 - 7:10 AM PDT
Back after a week-end out of town and found quite a number of rich comments.

phillipdavid, it's a pleasure to read your comments again. They brought back memories of the talks about Turner in the early days of this thread.

Labarjare, you're dead right on Basquiat. I read long time ago a scathing essay on Basquiat by Robert Hughes. It was published in the new Republic under the title of Requiem for a Featherweight. I believe Hughes included it in his collection of reviews entitles Nothing if Nor Critical.

Robert, I think you are right about Dubuffet paving the way for a more ready disposition to appreciate Twombly. As to whether Dubuffet or Twombly may be more closely related to Klee, you may be right, but it is hard to say. In all of them there is a quota of the sage child-- simplicity and sophistication. The figurative connection is, of course, between Klee and Dubuffet. In the end, Klee is interested in the laws that govern evolution, in the *werden*, the becoming. And in that respect he has no true heirs.
The Twombly tryptic works best if you see 17 as a breaking wave and the other two, 18 and 19, as calmer waters (I don't mean to be literal). Maybe you got (o I got) something wrong in the order, buy phillipdavid's comments seem to confirm the order is right.

1563. resonance - Jan. 18, 1998 - 9:01 AM PDT
The first frame of that series really hit me hard, after about a minute's contemplation. Darkness and light -- like an aethereal spirit roaring over, and cowing, the earth tone shadow. It is very dynamic, and the blend of ghostly light and bruised substance is intriguing. It's phantasmagorically entrancing; like good art should, it makes me feel something hard to describe.

The other two panels I am still ruminating on; I see I have some reading to do (I never did read the poem, you see.) Thank you, Senecio -- I was not previously acquainted with Cy Twombly.

1564. wabbit - Jan. 20, 1998 - 8:16 AM PDT
Wow, a busy week here! Senecio, thanks for the Twombly links. Robert, does that Tàpies piece belong to you? btw, I have some printmaking ideas to run by you, will send e-mail soon.

Going back to the Wally controversy for a minute, I think one of the reasons the family was anxious to keep Wally here is that in New York, stolen artwork belongs to the person(s) it was stolen from, once documentation has been verified. It does not matter whether someone, say Rudolf Leopold, was a good-faith purchaser; in New York he is not the legal owner if other ownership can be proven. I believe the statue of limitations is also a non-issue in this case. LabJ, do you know anything about the legal ranglings?

Finally, the Getty has their website up and running.

1565. KurtMondaugen - Jan. 21, 1998 - 10:48 AM PDT
senecio:

Just to add my brief two cents, I tend to think that Dubuffet is perhaps more closely aligned w/ Giacometti and, to a lesser extent, Bacon and maybe Beuys than to Klee, if only in terms of imagic commentary on postwar Europe's feelings of damage and renewal. While it's true that Dubuffet's style and Klee's style may very easily strike one as immediatly similar (as well as those of perhaps Ryder or Rouault, for that matter), Dubuffet's work and ideas in what he called Art Brut (art styled after the scratchings of children, vandals and psychotics as affirmation) is, to me, on an entirely different level than the "simplicity and sophistication" of Klee (whom I admire, nonetheless). Just a thought.

1566. TheCatintheHat - Jan. 22, 1998 - 1:39 PM PDT
I think Jimmy Buffett rocks too.

1567. senecio - Jan. 22, 1998 - 4:22 PM PDT
Kurt, your two cents are most welcome. You are taking the matter into a deeper level of discussion than the rather casual remarks about afinities or convergences Robert and I and others made a while ago.

When seeking to establish whether or not and how and to what degree any two artists may be related, one can easily focus on less relevant aspects. In reality, I believe as I stated briefly in a previous post, that Klee has no true heirs or continuators. What he was most interested about was to discover how forms evolve, naturally, starting from simple motives. He was interested in nothing less than creation itself. He searched for the laws of evolution concerning natural forms, human situations and abstract forms alike. He could easily have discovered fractals and probably did, in his way.

In the postwar some looked for Klee heirs and pointed to at artists like Baumaeister or Wols or Zao-Wou-Ki, but in every case, the supposed link was a rather supeficial one.

I believe the link between Klee and Dubuffet (or Twombly, for that matters) rests also on ostensible but secondary aspects. (I believe Klee is the superior artist, by the way, though I admire Twombly and, with some reservations, Dubuffet)

If any artist may be deemed as attempting to do something today as ambitious as Klee tried in his time, and similar in spirit (in a deep and not at all evident way) would be Anselm Kiefer. But that would be the topic for a long tirade...

1568. KurtMondaugen - Jan. 22, 1998 - 6:54 PM PDT
Well, bring it on, then, Senecio....you're off to a fine start.

1569. RobertDente - Jan. 22, 1998 - 7:21 PM PDT
pd- Thanks for the correct spelling of "pedagogical!"

Wabbit- I couldn't afford a Tapies scribble on toilet paper! I look forward to your Email.

senecio- I'm with Kurt--go for it! Are you familiar with the work of:
Hundertwasser? (The thumbnails enlarge.)

1570. Philistine - Jan. 22, 1998 - 7:26 PM PDT
On a totally unrelated note, the Comics Journal just celebrated their 200th issue. TCJ is one of only a very few publications that regularly discuss the sequential art form from a non-fanboyish point of view, and with actual critical analysis. The 200th issue is a veritable doorstop, featuring Chris Ware on the front, and a tribute to Sparky Schulz on the back (Chris Wares design for the cover and spine demonstrates a hitherto unnoticed similarity among the two artists and also their best known creations, Jimmy Corrigan and Charlie Brown.)

The issue is such a monster that I haven't been able to read more than a teensy amount of the thing yet, but I'll run through some of the highlights from the table of contents.

1571. Philistine - Jan. 22, 1998 - 7:27 PM PDT
continued

First, the "Read this Comic" feature has been expanded to include a reviewers choice of any comic published in any form in the lifespan of TJC, including Ware's brilliant "ACME NOVELTY LIBRARY", the seminal RAW magazine, Larry Marder's fascinating and unique "Tales Of The Beanworld", reprint volumes of classic Alley Oop strips, and of course the stalwart critical faves "Watchmen" and "Maus". There is also a lengthy interview with Chris Ware along with a section excerpting his sketchbooks. Many luminaries contribute their own half-page to a page musings on the art form in the "Hey, kids! Comics!" section, including Patrick McDonnell, los Bros Hernandez, Joe Sacco, Ted Rall, Bill Griffith, Mike Diana (who seems to be violating his sentence by drawing again), Tom Tommorow, Pat Moriarty, and Sergio Aragones. Jules Feiffer updates his book "The Comic Book Heroes" in an (apparently) all new essay.

Lastly, there is another long interview, this time with Charles M Schulz, followed by 20 pages or so of genuflecting in his shadow. This final section includes some very strange ideas about the symbolism of that most pervasive of strips, for example Peter Kuper (who also does excellent illustrations for Slate) says "...so did Charlie Brown stand as a bold indictment of America's racist actions both at home and abroad. From the 'Charlies' of Vietnam to the oppressed 'Browns' in America's ghettos..." You're a great comics artist, Peter, but I just don't follow you here...

1572. labarjare - Jan. 23, 1998 - 2:30 PM PDT
senecio - may I add my voice to those who urge you to let that tirade flow forth?

1573. wabbit - Jan. 23, 1998 - 3:38 PM PDT
Senecio, by all means, sally forth! A few links to Kiefer works for those unfamiliar:
exhibitA
exhibitB
exhibitC
exhibitD

1574. FreeToChoose - Jan. 23, 1998 - 7:16 PM PDT
I don't spend much time in this thread, so i apologize if this has already been reported (I perused the last week's posts and didn't see it.)

I just joined up with @Home for Internet service today. I received the obligatory e-mails from the owners, telling me about all their services. Imagine my surprise when I read one listing their site of the month and recognize the name as a fellow Fraygrant!!!!!!

"Cool Member's Site of the Month

This month we chose Robert Dente's Portfolios as the Cool Member's Site of the Month for January.
The site contains photos of Robert Dente's apparent talent as an artist. This @Home member has online exhibits of his landscape and mask paintings as well as examples of his unusual sculptures."

Dente

C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S R O B E R T ! ! ! !

1575. Philistine - Jan. 23, 1998 - 9:21 PM PDT
Keen! Fantagraphics Books Incorporated (hereafter abbreviated to FBI, hehehe) has spiffed up their website and added a separate site for The Comics Journal, the latter of which includes not only a review page where they will review ANYTHING they are sent (guess who's getting a copy of Symbolic Romance), but a comics discussion board!

Anyway, I am not likely to clutter up this thread with my lowbrow obsessions anymore, and the rest of you have a place to check out new and neato things in the sequential arts field.

Also, I must correct my earlier post's reference to a new Jules Feiffer essay: the essay in question is reprinted in it's entirety from _The Great Comic Book Heroes_, which has evidently been out of print for years.

1576. Philistine - Jan. 23, 1998 - 9:23 PM PDT
Hooboy, sorry about that second link. Here it is again.

The Comics Journal

1577. senecio - Jan. 24, 1998 - 3:19 PM PDT
Kurt, Robert, Labarjare, Wabbit, thanks for your encouragement. I was out of town, a I am most Fridays, and I hope the pizza hasn't grown cold on the topic of Klee and Kiefer.

Robert, (your msg 1569): I Hundertwasser but do not appreciate his work. I perceive him as creator of lifeless 'enchanted' vistas. He is IMO another painter that can easily and superficially linked to Klee.

As to links between two artists, I remember a good example someone once gave: you hear two musical notes, one by a piano and one by a clarinet. The timbre is obviously different. Moreover, one instrument played a high, loud, long note. The other, a grave, pianissimo, short one. It seems both notes have nothing in common, unless you detect they both played a B flat.

Well, Kiefer paints (as one may appreciate thanks to Wabbit's links in msg 1573) large scale, several-inches thick, seemingly ponderous, works where the clor is reduced to plumb gray, tar black and a few other, mostly somber, tone. He is not a `particularly good draftsman. Klee, on the contrary, paints very small works, as a rule; he a great colorists and draftsman; the subjets are seemingly capricious, most often humorous. So where is the B flat that links them both?

In my view it is in the fact that both fulfill, more than any other two modern artists that I know of, Klee's saying that "the painter is a philosopher unbeknownst to himself". Needless to say, first you must be a good painter, as both are. All good painters are philosophers, to some extent (So are all good artists, for that purpose)

Now, at the risk of eliciting knowledgeable rejoinders from fellow fraygrants from the philosophy threat, I must dwell on this last point. To this end, in addition to Klee himself, who was quite a philosopher in the usual term of the word, I have in mind the insights by French phenomenologist Merleau-Ponty. Klee said that "art does not reproduce the visible but renders it visible&

1578. senecio - Jan. 24, 1998 - 4:26 PM PDT
CONT. TO msg 1577 (Forgive the typos in the previous post. I pressed send instead of edit. Of course, I meant I *know* Hundertwasser, I meant Color and not *clor*, etc.)

Merleau-Ponty elaborates on Klee's point explicitly and addresses in most of his works the question of the visible and the invisible and art as a language. Succinctly put, art may capture and communicate what remains invisible and inaccessible to other means of knowledge and to other languages, but which through art may be received and recognized as *known* and as *own* by many.

So far, nothing really new. But *what* is the invisible that artists like Klee or like Kiefer attempt to deal with. Both have tremendous ambitions but are modest enough to be conscious of their limited means. Their ambition is as broad as that of the most ambitiuous philosopher -- to address the whole mistery of reality and to get as far as possible in the task of taking it in (they know too well to expect to "clarify" that mistery; it is enough to begin to perceive its scope, some of its laws, its fundamental ambigüity).

As I stated before, I believe Klee is interested in Creation (I don't mean the capital C to signify a religious connotation): how forms evolve. All forms, including natural ones and human situaions. Kiefer is interested is something very similar but more historically anchored. He is interested in historical evolution as punctuated by dreams and myths.

Robert Hughes once said that Kiefer's work is, amidst the futility of much of contemporary art, a triumph of the moral imagination. Klee's take is perhaps vaster. He is interested in the being, the becoming, the flux of it all. The ethical in him is not neglected, but it gets caught in the ontological.

Well, I said it was a long tirade. I trust it is not too confusing.

1579. LtMarvel - Jan. 26, 1998 - 9:15 PM PDT
*sigh* I miss "Tales of the Beanworld". Thanx for reminding me...

The Comics Journal was never my cup of tea (they love to rant), but I respect a lot of their work.

Perhaps a more correct reference of racism brought up in the Peanuts strip was when Snoopy mirrored Hank Aaron's attack on the Babe's home run record. Snoopy, too, got hate mail from small-minded people. It made a pile about twice the height of the doghouse. When asked if the hate mail kept him awake at night, Snoopy replied "Only when it falls on me." Brilliant stuff. (A belated happy 75th to Sparky Shultz!)

JLA: Year One, written by Mark Waid continues to impress. Fully developed characters, each with his or her own baggage, are brought together to form the Justice League of America. The dialogue is witty and thought provoking. I'm not sure where this tale will end up, but sign me up for the ride! (JLA: Y1 #1-3 [of 12] have been published and should be available at your local comics shop)

1580. Philistine - Jan. 26, 1998 - 9:57 PM PDT
Lieutenant

They do tend to rant, don't they? Especially Gary (Groth, founder and publisher.) But I still recommend The Comics Journal unreservedly as one of the only publications in the english speaking world that recognized sequential art has the ability to be real, capital A Art, not just commercial art (let me refer interested parties to Australia's _Staros Report_ as another excellent example.) Also, their interviews (especially Gary's, I have to admit) are about the best being published these days, at least in the magazines that I read. Both the Chris Ware and Charles Schulz interviews in issue #200 are exemplary examples of this. In an age where "Um, so who are your influences?" passes as insightful journalism, the way that Mr. Groth draws out his subjects and presses them (albeit respectfully) to share their craft and motivations with us, the lucky readers is an inspiration.

On a nearly unrelated note, I had no idea that you were an animator! I am immediately fascinated. Are you a colleague of Mr. Timms, whose page you linked to in the Tube thread, or do you actually work on the Animaniacs, as you hinted in a more recent post over there? Please, get my e-mail from someone who has it (Irv and PsychProf come to mind as likely candidates) and let me know more!

1581. Philistine - Jan. 26, 1998 - 9:59 PM PDT
And kudos, Scenecio! I meant to add my voice to those clamoring for your lecture, but as you know, I didn't. Let me make it up to you know by gushing praise.

Gushgushgushgushgushgushgushgushgushgushgushgushgushgushgush.

Let me know if you want some more. Plenty where that came from!

1582. JustSayYo - Jan. 27, 1998 - 8:36 PM PDT
Ah; I wish I could converse. I am alas ignorant of the artists in current discussion. Sigh...

Peace...

1583. Jenerator - Jan. 28, 1998 - 7:57 PM PDT
Anyone familiar with the artist Rene Grau?

1584. LtMarvel - Jan. 28, 1998 - 9:56 PM PDT
An animator? ME?

No, I teach math. Strangely, you are not the first person to accuse me of that...

Warner Brothers have been advertising for background animators ("we are willing to train")... Hmmm....

I agree about the CJ interviews. I bought a copy for a rare Bill Watterson (Calvin & Hobbes) interview. Great questions (If Hobbes is a stuffed animal, then how did Calvin get tied up in the chair?).

1585. RobertDente - Jan. 29, 1998 - 9:39 AM PDT
FYI Department:
The Modern's dilemma!

senecio- Sorry for the sluggish response--I've been wrestling with Captain CHAOS in the studio again and he's winning at the moment.

Hundertwasser does imitate Klee and I can see how you would be unsatisfied by his work. I'm not much of a fan either. You still seem to be playing the "my game is more interesting than your game" game when it comes to comparing artists. You have very particular and discerning opinions--which I often share, but your focus and taste is very narrow. It's like saying that the only flavor that matters is butterscotch and all other flavors pale in comparison (or at least I get that impression). I assume you mean that the "what" that these artists render visible is "consciousness". I assume this because of (what little I know about) Merleau-Ponty's ideas. I don't know how his ideas jell with Kiefer's lack of figurative themes, however. If there's a Phenomenologist from the Philosophy thread maybe he/she could enlighten us. Bottom line though I sincerely enjoy your enthusiasm and sensitivity to these artists. Party on Dude!

1586. RobertDente - Jan. 29, 1998 - 12:29 PM PDT
Philistine- Here are a couple of links you may enjoy: Exhibit A &
Exhibit B

1587. senecio - Jan. 30, 1998 - 8:18 AM PDT
Robert, you are as candid as when I first encountered you in the net, which is reassuring and refreshing. I did not say Hundertwasser imitates Klee. I said that he can easily and superficially be linked to Klee. (I did not imply that *you* were making such link either). I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I'm playing the "my game is more interesting that your game". I just enjoy a lively exchange of views and I like to think that I am always prepare to take persuasive points by co-fraygrants.

At one point in the history of this thread there were very intense debates involving fraygrants like JCrohn, AlexKhan, 100342, Tinnitus et. al. Many times I just sat in the wings, silently nodding in approval or just learning. (Were have all those fellows gone, by the way. I know Alex changed pseudonym but what about the others).

Now the thread has a different flavor, more heteregoneous in the topics addressed, less structured, which has its own charms. By the way, I have learned a lot from the participants who have introduced sequence art and other topics of which I know very little

1588. RobertDente - Jan. 30, 1998 - 10:02 AM PDT
senecio- Not at all--no implication taken. I'd like to expand upon the idea of artists ability to express the indefinable nature of consciousness somehow. I think your observations are on the mark about M-Ponty with regard to artists and, for purely selfish reasons, I'd love to have other farsighted Fragrants help out. I was dumbfounded by phillipdavid's "free association" in Message #1555. There are many untapped veins of wisdom and insight in the other threads that I yearn to have focus on art. I don't think, however, that people take art very...sincerely. (I didn't want to say "seriously.") There's so much sham and trendoidism in the so called art world; I suppose it's understandable.

1589. RobertDente - Jan. 31, 1998 - 1:27 PM PDT
wabbit- Just for YOU!

1590. KurtMondaugen - Jan. 31, 1998 - 1:51 PM PDT
Hey, folks...

Our new resident Uberfray has announced the immenent closure of this thread, on account of a lack of activity. I dare say we're capable of rising to the challenge, no?

1591. philistine - Jan. 31, 1998 - 2:11 PM PDT
KM -

You know I love ya, but i think you missed the boat on this one. Let me quote:

"The next category is those threads which I will consider dropping if there is insufficient interest. I will be placing an RIP on some of these soon. Others are still maintaining solid content, and are in no danger at this time. These are: Tax Reform, Education Standards, Philosophy, Race Relations, The Arts, the Clinton Sex Thread, Food and Shelter, Population and Travel."

If this thread ever does come under fire, you are just the guy to help it out of a jam, though. No offence to RobertDente, Labarjare, scenecio, wabbit (where are you, wabbit?), and the rest of the regulars.

1592. KurtMondaugen - Jan. 31, 1998 - 2:20 PM PDT
Philistine:

I stand corrected. I completely read that wrong (once again I post before injesting my daily caffiene allotment). Thanks for the clarification.

1593. RobertDente - Jan. 31, 1998 - 7:18 PM PDT
David Smith
"Does the onlooker realize the amount of affection which goes into a work of art - the intense affection - the belligerent vitality - and total conviction? To the artist it must be total to provide satisfaction. Does the critic, the audience, the philosopher even possess the intensity of affection for the work which its creator possessed? Or do they deal in the quality at all? Is this emotion too highly keyed - is it outside their lives? Or are they too skeptical? Or do they need written confirmation and general acceptance before they will let their own natural response be admitted to themselves?"
Excerpted from a speech given in Deerfield, Mass., Sept. 24, 1952.

1594. wabbit - Feb. 1, 1998 - 9:10 AM PDT
Hi, all. Philistine, school is keeping me very busy and right now I have several printing jobs as well (which look likely to extend into 1999) so my posts will be infrequent, but I check in as often as I can. Kurt, did I ever send you the info on that Dubuffet book? It's called La Botte à Nique, and though the signed editions are long gone, the unsigned edition may still be available from Hacker Art Books in NYC.

Senecio, great job on Klee/Kiefer. I would only add Kiefer's interest in destruction, as evidenced by both his subject matter and his technique (the tar he uses will eventually destroy the work).

I actually like Hundertwasser -- he's easy and colorful, and good for pyschic relief. I saw an exhibit of his paintings and prints in Montreal a few years ago and noticed that all the reproductions of his prints and paintings were reversed. I haven't been able to find out whether this is deliberate or not, or just the result of sloppy proofing by the offset shop. I have noticed it in books as well. Any thoughts?

Robert, I missed the NYTimes link you gave, can you e-mail the article please? And thanks for the *other* link! Did you get to see the recent David Smith exhibit at Storm King?

Jenerator, I don't know Rene Grau, please enlighten --

1595. patsyrolph - Feb. 1, 1998 - 9:33 AM PDT
Wabbitt:
Good morning. You never answered my question but I see here that you are seriously busy which is a very good thing for an artist.

wabbitt, Robert, et al. A review in the NYT Book Section revealed there is a book on the Leopold collection--soon I will have my own volume of Schiele! Also yet another picture and comment in Wittgenstein's Vienna which proves that as soon as one learns something there will be signs of it everywhere.

1596. wabbit - Feb. 1, 1998 - 9:40 AM PDT
Patsy - I guess that means you didn't get my e-mail? I did get yours, and the snail mail (love the photo!). I am envious of your upcoming trip to Bilbao, you will have to report all the juicy details to us on your return, with photos, of course!

1597. patsyrolph - Feb. 1, 1998 - 9:56 AM PDT
wabbitt-oh, good. I'm planning the Spain trip
for Spring. Pictures? possibly something from Barcelona? Gaudy in front of Gaudi? Right now we've slipped into February so next excursion is to Aruba for shadow chasing-total solar eclipse time.

1598. phillipdavid - Feb. 1, 1998 - 10:39 AM PDT
Robert Dente,
1588

"I was dumbfounded by phillipdavid's "free association" in Message #1555"

Hmmmm ... I hope I make more sense in other threads where I at least pretend to know what I am talking about.

1599. RobertDente - Feb. 1, 1998 - 4:52 PM PDT
pd- Balderdash! You're in touch with your greater self! (And what about the phenomenology of consciousness?)

wabbit- Sorry my dear, the NYT's post was vaporized and I didn't think to copy it. Basically, what I remember was that Lauder is the guy who knows all of the parties in this struggle and that he's the best hope for ironing it all out--but who *really* knows! (It was written much much better, however!)

Philistine- Would you like a big quarto book of Little Orphan Annie?

1600. philistine - Feb. 2, 1998 - 9:58 PM PDT
Hmmm...

I never really got into Little Orphan Annie, but maybe this is a good time to give it a shot. Tell me more.

PS - If this requires listening to that damn "tomorrow" song, you can forget it!

1601. RobertDente - Feb. 3, 1998 - 5:43 PM PDT
It only requires a "yes" (you would like the book)... no music!

5504 J.D. what? Avenue, Street, Turnpike, Gulch????

1602. philistine - Feb. 3, 1998 - 5:50 PM PDT
Robert,

If you get the city and zip code right, I am sure that will suffice. Besides, I can't recall if it is J.D. ave, gulch, blvd, etc.

And thank you for the most generous offer. I am guessing you need to make room on your shelves?

;-)

1603. RobertDente - Feb. 4, 1998 - 5:53 AM PDT
phil- No, my motive is that the book should be with someone who would enjoy it.

Anselm Kiefer FYI Department:

Kiefer's new show in SOHO

1604. RobertDente - Feb. 4, 1998 - 5:56 AM PDT
Austin, are you aware of this site?

RED MEAT

1605. senecio - Feb. 4, 1998 - 6:39 AM PDT
Thanks for the Kiefer link, Robert.
With great artists you always wonder where will they go next. When you then see the new work it invariably makes you feel that they moved to the natural next step.

1606. RobertDente - Feb. 4, 1998 - 7:17 AM PDT
Apologies if the above link to the new Kiefer show is not working. you may have to go through the "front door" at:

Click on "Galleries" then "Alphabetical" then "Gagosian (SOHO) New York"

1607. RobertDente - Feb. 4, 1998 - 7:23 AM PDT
ARTNET seems to keep changing the link address somehow!?
http://www.artnet.com/scripts/GTW640F2.HTM This is it for the moment.

Try this.

1608. RobertDente - Feb. 4, 1998 - 7:32 AM PDT
Senecio- Yes the coherence *is* gratifying. It looks like I'll have to go into "New Jork" soon.

All-
My apologies for the junkyard of posts above. Mr. Sloppy strikes again!
i've gotts tyo geyt vambis bechum teaheas tyop9ng? (I've got to get Mavis Beacon teaches typing!)

1609. wabbit - Feb. 4, 1998 - 7:43 AM PDT
Robert - If you can go Friday, I'll meet you there.

1610. RobertDente - Feb. 4, 1998 - 9:01 AM PDT
wab- I can't this Friday, but are Fridays always good for you?

1611. wabbit - Feb. 4, 1998 - 9:24 AM PDT
Yes.

1612. RobertDente - Feb. 4, 1998 - 9:27 AM PDT
Okay, I'll keep it in mind for the trip into The City (that makes its own "gravy" when it rains)!

1613. RobertDente - Feb. 5, 1998 - 1:14 PM PDT
Wabbit- Have you seen the abstraction show at Artists Space that Irving Sandler curated? If not, save it for when I come in?

1614. phillipdavid - Feb. 6, 1998 - 7:37 PM PDT
Last week's Time magazine introduced me to a painter I had not seen before, Lorenzo Lotto. Robert Hughes used the words "psychologically complex" among others in connection with this little known early 16th century paineter.

The magazine had pictures of some very interesting paintings by Lotto. This link will take you to Hughes' article, but there are no pictures there (unfortunately). Interesting article,nontheless, IMO. I will do a quick search to see if I can locate a link to some of the paintings shown in the magazine. I found them just as Hughes described, psychologically complex and entertaining to consider.

1615. phillipdavid - Feb. 6, 1998 - 8:13 PM PDT
Lotto's Portrait of a Married Couple

That painting is one Hughes uses to illustrate his characterization of Lotto's paintings as "psychologically complex."

I believe the sheet of paper the man is holding says "man never". One meaning is gleaned by considering the meaning of the symbology of his other hand pointing toward a squirrel -- the symbol for industriousness, gathering and hunting for nuts. This is a metaphor for infidelity, while his wife's lapdog is a symbol of fidelity.

But Hughes takes this complexity even further. He points out that the wife was actually dead at the time this portrait was painted, so the husband is actually sitting down with her ghost. And when you look closely, you will see the red of his eyes and the tears. The squirrel is also emblematic of the ability to sleep through the worst of storms, and you can see a high wind blowing the trees through the window behind the subjects. Hughes sees this painting depictiong the reality of a man who never finds release from his grief; he will always remember his bride.

All in all, a surpisingly complex psychological portrait.

1616. RobertDente - Feb. 6, 1998 - 9:26 PM PDT
pd- I'm *always* encouraged by Robert Hughes and obscure oddballs like Lotto. (Maybe there's still hope for me!) Speaking of yet another oddball, are you familiar with the contemporay Norwegian artist, Odd Nerdrum? If not, you may enjoy his mysterious efforts. (I hope that he's a surprise.)

Nerdrum (recent work)

Nerdrum (earlier work)

Lotto (a good sampling)

Lotto (a stunning portrait)

1617. phillipdavid - Feb. 6, 1998 - 9:41 PM PDT
Robert,

Yes, Nerdrum is a surprise (although, most artists are) and an oddball. Thanks for the link; I'll look at them more closely when it is not so late.

The "stunning portrait" by Lotto you linked to is also discussed by Hughes in the Time article. Hughes explains how it depicts depression -- he distractedly thimbs through the pages of the book without really paying any attention, the dry rose petals on the table,that certain look in his eye. I think I can relate to that state, for I have been there before.

1618. patsyrolph - Feb. 6, 1998 - 11:41 PM PDT
Robert.
Thanks for the Nerdrum link (shudder). I will have to look at them several more times (shudder) I'm sort of curious or interested that his daughter and he are Rembrants and the other pictures seem to be a Thematic Aperception Test (shudder). Certainly pschologically complex!

1619. RobertDente - Feb. 7, 1998 - 7:19 AM PDT
pd & patsy- I'm so pleased that you were impressed with the images. If you're not familiar with the life and work of Caravaggio, you are in for an immense treat. He was the foundation stone for Rembrandt and Velasquez--on up to Nerdrum... and Frank Stella--believe it or not!

senecio- Here's your guy! Anselm Kiefer's, latest link. BTW, it's a very thoughtful website that gives a new viewer a better sense of his work.

1620. labarjare - Feb. 7, 1998 - 2:59 PM PDT
wabbit, Robert, anyone else who is in or can get to NYC - don't miss the Kiefer show at the Gagosian. It closes at the end of month I think. I'll be out of town for almost the next two weeks but would enjoy very much killing those two birds with one stone so to speak by going to it again and meeting you all etc. If Fridays it is, and if I am correct about the closing date, it would have to be the 27th for me. I'll check here when I get back (I'll be computerless while away) and see if anything meshes.

Also ALL - tomorrow's NYTimes Sunday Magazine has an article about Bill Viola whose retrospective (which was at the LA County Museum last fall) opens at the Whitney this week. I wouldn't say that this article is a worldbeater in any aspect, but it is informative. IMHO, that is a do not miss show, but be prepared to spend a good part of the day. Well worth it.

1621. wabbit - Feb. 8, 1998 - 10:01 AM PDT
The 27th is good for me, LabJ. I didn't get to town Friday, but may go this coming Friday. I want to get into DIA for my macho fix and also to see the Chuck Close show at MOMA. Among dozens of other things.
Robert, I haven't been to Artists Space recently, though the rumor is that Irving was in town recently. When can you go? btw, love Nerdrum.

1622. RobertDente - Feb. 8, 1998 - 10:15 AM PDT
I think that I *can* make it in for the 27th, but not until 11ish, if that's okay?

1623. labarjare - Feb. 8, 1998 - 1:15 PM PDT
Hot Diggity, wabbit and Robert! I think I mentioned I will be away starting tomorrow until late the 18th, but I will check back in after that to see what arrangements have been made. My immediate reaction that the easiest thing to do would be to pick a time (11 or a bit later leading into lunch - hint - would be fine) to meet at the Gagosian. I am sure we could somehow find one another. Hope this works out.

wabbit - the Serras are still at the Dia. Macho indeed.

1624. wabbit - Feb. 8, 1998 - 2:15 PM PDT
This sounds like fun! How's 11:30am 2/27 at Gagosian? Robert has met me and will no doubt verify that I am not hard to spot in a crowd -- I am the tall one.

1625. RobertDente - Feb. 8, 1998 - 2:24 PM PDT

and attractive!

1626. RobertDente - Feb. 11, 1998 - 7:32 AM PDT
wabbit- Any suggestions wrt an itinerary for the day in NYC?

1627. RobertDente - Feb. 11, 1998 - 7:39 AM PDT
wabbit- Any suggestions wrt an itinerary for the day in NYC?

I see that Donald Kuspit "whacked" Eric Fischl pretty hard--have you seen his new sculpture? Do you know Kuspit?

1628. wabbit - Feb. 11, 1998 - 8:04 AM PDT
Ouch! Well, I would concede a couple points to Kuspit -- from the photos, the sculptures do appear over-the-top, too blatant and obvious. Psychodrama has always beens Fischl's card, but imo his paintings had an interesting, disturbing subtext. I've never heard him refer to himself as "an expert in sexual representation, and an insightful student of the emotions." Indeed, he admits his figure painting is largely unskilled. Neither do I think that he has to be an expert on religion to portray religiousity (in whatever manner) in his work. He often portrays unhealthy male/female relationships - should we assume his marriage is on the rocks? (an aside -- I *still* haven't gotten back to April, someone should smack me, but she got a very good reception in Houston for her work not long ago. Have you heard from her?) Maybe I should make a pilgrammige to Stony Brook.

Had a chance to speak to Danto yesterday morning -- a real contrast to Kuspit.

There's lots to see right now, shall we hit one of the museums or stick to a gallery crawl? Either is fine with me.

1629. wabbit - Feb. 11, 1998 - 8:07 AM PDT
spell check, spell check . . . pilgrimage . . . (going to stand in the corner now)

1630. RobertDente - Feb. 11, 1998 - 9:02 AM PDT
(Don't be self-conscious about spelling around Mr.Slobbo here.)
I'm so torn wrt Fischl. I really want to like his work because (I think) he has good skills and a healthy respect for the continuity of art. OTOH, if Bob Dylan were to come out with a CD singing Verde "Updated"--I don't think I would buy it (in either sense of the word). I can't quite tell how I feel yet. I think the flavor of his best work is somewhat harsh and embarrassing, but harnessed to the truth about realities' dumbfounding weirdness. This new stuff just looks falsely weird to me at this point. I liked the watercolor, btw.

1631. wabbit - Feb. 11, 1998 - 9:20 AM PDT
I wonder if he was working from photos, like he does with his paintings. I don't think these sculptures are going to grow on me, but neither is Kuspit's review, which sounds too personal. What's up with sculpture lately? Kruger got creamed too (and deservedly so, imo).

1632. RobertDente - Feb. 11, 1998 - 10:03 AM PDT
I agree. Maybe the visual homogenization of life has depleteted us of cream ...and fakers *should* get "creamed!" It seems like all the flavors-of-the-month go flat faster than ever before. Maybe success breeds a self-destructive loss of vitality in flash-in-the-pans? (How's that for HIGH-phenation..."high falutin' dames with hy-phenated names!--I love Cole Porter...maybe I'm gay?) They (Jennifer Bartlet et al) seem more eager to get their homes in Architectual Digest than anything else.

1633. wabbit - Feb. 11, 1998 - 10:19 AM PDT
Success seems to lead to loss of vitality for legends, too (thinking Rauschenberg).

Moving slightly off-topic, a few days ago, I was talking to a student who was very upset that Oldenburg and Dine had moved 'uptown' as soon as they could. She thinks that great art comes only from the struggle, but she equates *that* with poverty and desparation. Oh, to be 18 and believe that you can live on air alone! She said she 'hears' that there's good money in printmaking -- reminded me of a line from Fawlty Towers, "Enough to keep me in waitressing."

Our DID lists from the music thread included many duplications of Ella Fitzgerald's Cole Porter Songbook.

1634. wabbit - Feb. 11, 1998 - 10:21 AM PDT
my ability to spell has departed . . . *desperation* . . . I need a nap.

1635. RobertDente - Feb. 11, 1998 - 10:56 AM PDT
*LOL* Did you see the Charlie Blows interview with Nanacy and Jime Dine? It was Macbeth come to life!!!

1636. RobertDente - Feb. 11, 1998 - 10:56 AM PDT
"Nanancy?" (You get me excited!)

1637. wabbit - Feb. 11, 1998 - 2:17 PM PDT
Charlie Blows, now there's a name I wouldn't want. Wonder if he knows Everard Cocke?

Where was the interview?

1638. RobertDente - Feb. 11, 1998 - 7:26 PM PDT
wabbit- Sorry about that! Had a crash and couldn't reboot till now. It looked like I missed an interesting afternoon. Is Diva a singer? Anyway to get back to it: I call Charlie Rose, "Charlie Blows" because he is always interrupting or not letting his guests talk. He is forever trying to show how much he knows...thus...Thar he blows! Anyway, Nancy Dine made a movie of her husband, (quiet he's a genius) Jim Dine, making a large wall drawing that was to be painted over or destroyed (whatever--who can remember--now that I'm fifty, I just attribute it to another "senior moment" as Betty Freedan[sp?] would say). Well the two of them were insufferable. They were ferociously egotiscal and they trampled over each other's comments the whole interview. (Macbeth come to life!)

1639. TomHewson - Feb. 11, 1998 - 9:46 PM PDT
My wife Gina and I took in The Lion King and Ragtime recently. Seeing both so close together like that made me search for a way to seperate them in my head, since they were running together.;) I settled on remembering that The Lion King hewed closely to the source material, and Ragtime hewed closely to the notion that the audience has an IQ over 50.;) Useful shorthand.
Gina liked The Lion King, I have to admit, and she has good taste, so there must be some aspects there of value that I missed. Which is possible as I was asleep a few times during the production.;)

1640. KurtMondaugen - Feb. 11, 1998 - 9:57 PM PDT
Dente:

Are you by chance referring to Dine's 1960 "Smiling Workman", in which he drank from cans of paint before leaping through his canvas? Never been much of a Dine fan, but this particular piece was from, and intrisincally a part of, Oldenberg's Ray Gun Spex Shop Days (aside to wabbit: I wouldn't normally put Oldenberg and Dine [let alone Rauschenberg, ptui] in the same sentence), which I've always had the proverbial soft spot for (which I think my many Fluxus posts might indicate). Just wondering.

1641. wabbit - Feb. 12, 1998 - 3:30 AM PDT
Oooh, the "Smiling Workman" was fun! Back in 1959-60, Dine and Oldenburg really were very closely related in what they were doing, that whole Kaprow group etc. If you ever get to NYC you should go to the Fluxus store. Fun place, some stuff for sale, lots of memorabilia to look at. I thought Robert must be on to something newer. But no, Robert, I missed that one. (I saw one of the plates for his robe series at Blackburn's studio a couple years ago -- collagraph on a pressboard plate that he works on with a small electric chainsaw. Interesting way of making marks.)

Tom -
Welcome. I hope someone can discuss Broadway with you, but for better or worse, that someone won't be me. I rarely get to see shows anymore.

1642. RobertDente - Feb. 12, 1998 - 6:43 AM PDT
Tom- And I'm even dumber! Sorry.

Kurt- No, this was last year.

Wab-I did an etching and drypoint workshop with Dine and Donald Saff. I learned a lot of interesting stuff about "plate abuse" (and student abuse for that matter)! Dine's a creep. *Who* is Everard Cocke?

1643. KurtMondaugen - Feb. 12, 1998 - 8:58 AM PDT
wabbit:

I'll be in NYC in August, and I'll definitely add that to my already extensive 'to do' list. Speaking of memorabilia, I recently found one of Oldenberg & Higgins' Store Days books (w/ an original opening invitation tucked inside) at my job buried under a stack of old Life magazines. Mr. Bossman apparently didn't know what it was, since he told me to go ahead and take that old thing home. Thanks, Mr. Bossman.

Robert:

Probably should have figured that from your post. I thought maybe since you seemed to be describing some kind of performance piece, it may have been an earlier work.

1644. KurtMondaugen - Feb. 12, 1998 - 9:10 AM PDT
btw, if anyone in or near Los Angeles has attended or is planning to attend any of the "Beyond the Pink" events scheduled over the next couple weeks, please post about it. Paul McCarthey, Hermann Nitsch, Carolee Schneeman, John Duncan, Dick Higgins, Rotraut Klein-Moquay and an incredible host of others are slated to present works, and I for one, am sorry I'm not in Southern California (never thought I'd say that).

1645. wabbit - Feb. 13, 1998 - 12:56 PM PDT
Wow, Store Days, I was just looking at that last week! Unfortunately, it belongs to one of my profs, though I haunt used bookstores and hope to find it one day.

Perhaps saying the Fluxus *store* is a bit of an overstatement. It's more of a livingroom, floor to ceiling bookshelves on the left, barristers and more bookshelves on the right, a couple large tables in the middle of the room piled high with still more books and stuff, and a desk with barely enough room for a telephone and a lamp. Hmmmm, this sounds suspiciously like *my* livingroom. . . Anyway, I'll check to be sure it's open to the public and when, and if it isn't, I'll see about finagling an invite.

Robert - Everard Cocke is a British veterinarian. I thought it was a joke, but I checked the RCVS registry, and there he was. I hear his sister's name is Ophelia.

1646. RobertDente - Feb. 13, 1998 - 3:30 PM PDT
PEOPLE! I think we are all ready for the next LEVEL!

1647. wabbit - Feb. 13, 1998 - 8:11 PM PDT
Thanks for the link, RD. Very timely for me. Hey, I just picked up a few 1kg (!) tins of black Charbonnel etching ink for $10/per -- want any?

1648. RobertDente - Feb. 13, 1998 - 8:28 PM PDT
Yow! How strange! I just ordered some from Rennaisance Graphics this morning. Have you ever used their Transparent White Lake?

1649. RobertDente - Feb. 13, 1998 - 8:38 PM PDT
wabbit-
This may help too.

1650. wabbit - Feb. 13, 1998 - 8:47 PM PDT
Zounds, Robert! Merci!

Transparent White Lake -- my fave for glazing. I convinced the painter I'm printing for now to buy me some for glazing his monoprints. Not cheap, but absolutely the cream of the crop and he is sold on the results. I will not glaze without it! I know Rembrandt in NJ, and Graphic Chemical, NYCentral etc. Where is Rennaisance?

1651. RobertDente - Feb. 13, 1998 - 9:01 PM PDT
Pat, who onced worked for Rembrandt Graphics, decided to lite out on her own and she needs the "bidnizz."

Rennaisance

Did I mention that my work is reviled in the UK?

1652. wabbit - Feb. 13, 1998 - 9:08 PM PDT
No kidding, I know Pat. I'll have to get in touch with her.

I love your masks. Hey, that Citris Wonder dude has Kai Power Toys (zzzzzzzz)

1653. RobertDente - Feb. 13, 1998 - 9:18 PM PDT
Yeah I know. Still, I could be exhibiting again in South America, using linoleum for matte board.

1654. wabbit - Feb. 13, 1998 - 9:31 PM PDT
Well, I never would have thought to use linoleum. Hey, it could be carved and inked -- nah.


Think I'll go wake up SO and wish him a happy Valentine's Day.

1655. RobertDente - Feb. 14, 1998 - 7:32 PM PDT
Here is a very surprising and candid pan of The Bonnard exhibition
at the Tate in London. (It's not a pan of the show but of the artist.)

1656. wabbit - Feb. 14, 1998 - 9:07 PM PDT
Prefer Vuillard, myself, but perhaps I'll tie into this tomorrow.

1657. senecio - Feb. 16, 1998 - 3:16 PM PDT
Wabbit, I second you in your preference for Vuillard.

Fellows, I was away on a trip with a brief stopover in NYC. There I went to see the superb Kiefer exhibition at the Gagosian Gallery in the Soho. Next morning (last Thursday) I had only a couple of free hours before leaving NY. I rushed to see the Bill Viola show at the Whitney, only to find out that on Thursdays they open at 1:00 pm. Despair... Then I lucked out. An old acquaintance of mine was entering the Museum with the firm stride of someone who owns the place (or at least works there). I pleaded on my knees to be let in. She graciously yielded and I could see the show with her as a guide.

I was SO impressed. I knew Viola's works only in reproductions and in the Internet, which of course do not count for installations which surround you and create a whole environment. Labarjare had mentioned, long ago, how impressed he was with the Viola when he saw it in the West Coast, but this exceeded my expectations.

Robert, Wabbit, if you go to see the Kiefer show as you are planing, make sure not to miss Viola.

1658. RobertDente - Feb. 17, 1998 - 5:28 AM PDT
Senecio- Welcome back Travlin' Man. Thanks for the update and the Viola tip. In last friday's review, Roberta Smith gave that show a slight thump for being morally condescending and I *wondered* if she was just being her usual Ms.Cranky self. But then in last sunday's art section she seemed to ignore her "bad" self and discussed the power of video--I wondered if she had second thoughts about her first take.

1659. wabbit - Feb. 17, 1998 - 7:14 AM PDT
Senecio -

I plan to see the Viola show this Friday, along with Leger at MOMA (but that's research as much as mere viewing). I am generally impressed with Viola, but have only ever seen his work in small doses and was wondering about the size of the show affecting my ability to be rational about it with only one viewing (fear of overload). I am resolved to see it at least twice. If you find yourself in the apple again and have an hour free for coffee, do tell!

1660. senecio - Feb. 17, 1998 - 1:26 PM PDT
Robert, I did not see the reviews by Roberta Smith. Thanks for the tip. I'll look them up. I certainly did not find Viola morally condescending.

Wabbit, I travel up to the apple about twice a year, so it won't be until later in the year that I will make my next pilgrimage. Pity. Would have loved to see the show twice and with a frayster, no less!

I don't think it is too overburdening as a show, although it takes two floors of the Whitney, because each work occupies a room. A second visit is always desirable, though... Enjoy. And bring a report back from old Leger!

1661. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 6:45 AM PDT
Senecio -

You're on! If you want the NYT articles, I copied them and can send them to you (they don't archive the arts column.) Let me know: wwabbit@mailcity.com

1662. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 7:00 AM PDT
To hell with this all. And all who would pay to hear themselves talk.

1663. Msivorytower - Feb. 18, 1998 - 7:05 AM PDT
To hell with idiots and whiners. Ya, that's the ticket. And to people who hide behind anonymity.

1664. Msivorytower - Feb. 18, 1998 - 7:07 AM PDT
So sorry to interrupt the tranquility of the Arts thread. Just doing a little early morning venting.......

Ah, yes.

1665. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 7:33 AM PDT
Yeah, what she said



(wabbit bristles and draws self up to full height, loses consciousness from lack of oxygen, falls over)

1666. CharlieL - Feb. 18, 1998 - 7:33 AM PDT
Go ahead, MsIT. After all, it is Ventsday, isn't it?

1667. CharlieL - Feb. 18, 1998 - 7:34 AM PDT
wabbit bristles? They would make pretty soft brushes, wouldn't they?

1668. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 7:40 AM PDT
mmmmmmmm, nice and soft! ;)

1669. IamIneffable - Feb. 18, 1998 - 8:15 AM PDT
Not good for scumbling though!

1670. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 8:48 AM PDT
Robert!!!

1671. IamIneffable - Feb. 18, 1998 - 8:51 AM PDT
Outstanding for glazes, however, and for the finest expression!

1672. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 8:59 AM PDT
;)

hey, wait a minute, what thread is this?

1673. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 9:07 AM PDT
LabJ -

#1624. I hope this link works, I can't preview.

Hope your trip was lovely!

1674. TempLoginIDVer20 - Feb. 18, 1998 - 9:29 AM PDT
Dear Fraygrants:

The problems you are encountering this morning are due to a technical error introduced to the system last night. We are in the process of removing the files requiring you to post under a temporary log-in. We apologize for the inconvenience and hope to have things back to normal very soon. Please feel free to forward this message to fellow Fraygrants that might not have access to the Fray at this time. If you have further questions, please e-mail help@slate.com.

Thank you,

Cyrus Krohn
Managing Editor, SLATE

1675. Philistine - Feb. 19, 1998 - 10:48 AM PDT
Big news for comics lovers! Scott McCloud, the author of "Understanding Comics, The Invisible Art" has finally released his next big project on the public. His obsessions (symbols and their relationship to the ideas they represent) are still evident, but are packaged in a full-color narrative, rather than a black and white diatribe. The book is called "The New Adventures Of Abraham Lincoln" and is pretty much what it sounds like: a fantasy based on the premise that Lincoln comes back from the dead to save the United States. In a new twist on McCloud's previous work, the book was illustrated and lettered entirely in Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, and Pagemaker for the Mac (characters were pencilled on paper, then scanned and "inked" digitally.) The effect of the art is somewhat jarring; I am not sure I like it, but I admire his ambition, and it is by far the best computer-generated comics art that I have seen yet.

"The New Adventures Of Abraham Lincoln" is published by Image, retails for $19.95 and is a squarebound, softcover 130 page volume. A page of the book (reproduced much too small) is viewable here.

1676. RobertDente - Feb. 19, 1998 - 10:57 AM PDT
Thanks Austin. Did you get the book yet?

Wabbit- FYI Department

1677. Philistine - Feb. 19, 1998 - 11:05 AM PDT
Robert, yes, the Immense Tome Of Little Orphan Annie arrived yesterday. I'm not ready to discuss the contents yet, because I want to read it the way it was meant to be read - one strip a day
(that's a joke.)

Thanks again, as soon as I've made an umm....dent in reading it, I'll expound a further.

1678. RobertDente - Feb. 19, 1998 - 11:18 AM PDT
No need, read it when it beckons you. I sent it by U.S. mule train, btw--I'm glad it arrived!

1679. RobertDente - Feb. 20, 1998 - 8:39 AM PDT
Any comments?

"Truthfulness starts with accepting facts. Baldessari is an artist who, like any other, makes stuff and sells it. A lingering mental disorder in our culture is people's compulsion to pretend that special virtues, spiritual or political, motivate artists. Two things motivate artists: talent and exigency, what they can do and what they must. The art world makes artists. Artists do not make the art world. Artists are abjectly elitist. They are idealists condemned to life sentences in luxury trades (whether or not they earn a dime). So what?"

from: a wonderful cynicism: john baldessari
by Peter Schjeldahl

1680. senecio - Feb. 20, 1998 - 3:39 PM PDT
Robert, Schjeldal said it well and he is dead on, except when he states, without caveats, that the art world makes artists, not the other way around. That is true for most artists, particularly today's artists. But the big directions and turns in art history (and to a lesser extent in what is called the "art world") have been made my some great artists.

BTW, I saw a Baldessari show when in I was NYC. It was in the building where Leo Castelli's Gallery is (who was showing Dan Flavin) but I forgot which floor. I walked in and out of the Baldessari show in about 30 seconds. Tired, trite and sad.

1681. RobertDente - Feb. 20, 1998 - 4:22 PM PDT
senecio- I'm very much in accord with your take (yet again). I think time makes or breaks an artist's effort. But the flavors-of-the-month that drive the art&fashion world get so much hype that it's hard to ignore them. Baldessari is a shrewd mental anarchist and many of his clones went to NYC and dominated the scene for a decade. I had the misfortune of teaching with a few of them and they were masterful at manipulating weak minded people into thinking that the Emperor had new clothes. They were so uninstructed about art but knew every detail about how artists had made it in New York. In SOHO bars, at the time, you would hear investment brokers talking about art and artists talking about real estate prices.
Being Mark Rosenthal's curatorial assistant for a time helped me realize that there are curator's who can dance their own dance better to a particular artist's "music." (He was responsible for Kiefer's recognition in this country, btw.) They (curators) have a lot of power to establish an artist's career and provide a springboard. Eventually everything comes down to the work. Trendy banal objects that may appeal to the so called cognoscenti today may very well become embarrassing jokes later on.

(Gotta go! To be continued...)

1682. RobertDente - Feb. 22, 1998 - 8:52 AM PDT
David Salle was the worst offender. At the time he was making videos of scantily clad pubescent girls playing "Sports Car." One would bestride atop the other slapping the one below until she named ten sports cars. His idea of teaching was to ridicule and intimidate students until they capitulated to his point of view. He would say things like, "How do you *think* Alice Aycock made it, you fool? She slept with Robert Morris!" Then he saw Sigmar Polke's work in Germany (before his work was seen here)--ripped off his ideas and then hooked up with Mary Boone.
It was fascinating to witness and it gave me a healthy disillusionment for the reality behind the scenes. There was a wonderful piece in a California Magazine a few years ago about how Baldesarri influenced his students at Cal Arts by means of a kind of Socratic-cynicism. Classes were rarely about art but about “strategies for making it in New York." I realized then that Salle ripped off his "teacher" also, but put his own sadistic spin on the game.

"Tempus edax rerum." OVID
(Time, the devourer of things.)

1683. RobertDente - Feb. 22, 1998 - 12:34 PM PDT
My favorite British reviewer, reviewing my favorite Brit sculptor: Antony Gormley's "The Angel Of The North."

1684. labarjare - Feb. 23, 1998 - 11:34 AM PDT
Well, back from various places and, FWIW, I have a few comments about various topics.

First, my wife and I saw the Bonnard show at the Tate (the day it opened, actually). I have to start off by saying that Bonnard has always been one of my (many) favorites - primarily for the not very surprising reason that I find his use of colors (especially the reds and oranges and to a lesser extent the greens and blues) to be both just simply beautiful and distinctive. The feeling I get when looking at any number of Bonnards is evocative of that I have had on rare occasion when watching the effects on the floors and pillars of one of the great French cathedrals of sunlight pouring through one of the rose windows. His art frequently makes me feel and usually good (Francis Bacon's art, say, also makes me feel, but usually not good.) I also find that some of his nudes are among the "best of their genre that I've seen." I am thinking in particular of Indolence which to me is about the most erotic painting of its type. Marthe's looking clearly at the standing artist who clearly is Bonnard (the clay pipe on the table by the side of the bed is his.) and the sexual intimacy is intense.

As for the rather strident article to which Robert linked - to me there was more than just a whiff of a long-standing battle with the Tate going on. Too many pictures of Marthe? At least she is more interesting to look at (imo) than, say, the Gare that Monet was always painting or a certain mountain or blue-grey jug that show up from time to time (!) in Cezanne's art. (umm - g) Finally, as I recall the writer of the article utterly dismisses Bonnard's late self-portraits. Not for me. I find the whole "series" of self-portraits that Bonnard did (including those of himself nude near Marthe's bed) to be a wonderful chronicle of the (his) stages of life.

1685. labarjare - Feb. 23, 1998 - 11:53 AM PDT
More. We also went to a "big" (in terms of being heavily advertised) retrospective of Bruce Nauman's (mostly) video art at the Pompidou in Paris. Various pieces from 1966-1996. About the same time period as covered by the Bill Viola show now at the Whitney as I recall. Funny - just as I think Viola cannot really be appreciated in videos in that you need to see and experience the depth and complexity of his works in their fullness, I think that Nauman's video pieces might play much better in videos. In their full glory, they come over to me as basically shallow - a few gimmicks in terms of modern techniques which aren't fully developed or realized in terms of visual let alone emotional impact. He can't hold a candle to Viola or Matthew Barney imo.

The Viola show. Is the Whitney following the LA County in that you can get a pass to come back for subsequent visits free?

That leads me to prices. Perhaps it is because much of the museum going we do is at museums where we are members and therefore don't pay attention to the individual $ cost per visit. But, I was quite surprised to have to pay seven pounds (or about $11.25) to see the Bonnard. Then, yesterday, when in Boston I read that both the MOFA and the Gardner now charge $10 a pop. (Not that still isn't good value, mind you. After all, you also can pay $9 and see the new Spice Girls movie here in NYC.)

Finally - I spent a terrific afternoon yesterday in Cambridge roaming around the Fogg, the Busch-Reisinger, the Sackler and the Carpenter Center for Visual Arts. I am biased but I don't think there can be another university around which such a remarkably fine AND diverse set of collections. Bruce Nauman will be speaking at the Carpenter (as will Matthew Barney) on his art this Spring, incidentally. At any rate, when in Boston - GO. Only $5 for the whole shebang.

1686. RobertDente - Feb. 23, 1998 - 12:20 PM PDT
labarjare-

Welcome back and I hope you'll be feeling better soon. I also hope you'll be fit for the Kiefer show on Friday.

WRT Bonnard: I'm more sympathetic to him than wabbit and senecio and I enjoy his work for the same reasons. I'm also attracted to the somewhat exotic and far eastern flavor of his portraits and their design. My *favorites* are the selfportaits. The strongest pull for me however is their solitary quality. I consider him the French version of Morandi (my all time fav!) I remember reading someplace that he painted all of the bathtub scenes because his wife had a very painful skin ailment and the bath water soothed her and enchanted him. Was this mentioned in the Tate show? In Europe, I think, Bonnard is considered somewhat "bourgeois and unchallenging." I can understand it, but I don't think people see the originality of his color and design sense. The artist, IMO, who fits *that* tag is Renoir--GACK!--as CalGal would say. I also think Susan Rothenberg's application of paint is pretty much the same without his color skill.

A poor image of Gormely's “Angel”

1687. labarjare - Feb. 23, 1998 - 12:55 PM PDT
Hello, Robert. Yes, they did mention Marthe's ailments and the fact that lots of water was a favored treatment in her day. You use of the phrase design sense has articulated a part of what I was groping for. I think that some of those later bathtub paintings in particular almost resemble highly sophisticated mosaics in terms of the various colors, patterns and feel of different textures that are achieved. The Tate didn't mount the show particularly well, imo, and I will be curious to see how it looks when it shows up at MOMA this summer.

1688. labarjare - Feb. 23, 1998 - 1:07 PM PDT
BTW - Renoir is one of the few artists whose works can make me cringe. I saw a couple more yesterday at the Fogg and actually went ugh. That softness just doesn't do it for me.

Oh yes - PsE - if you are lurking. The Fogg has a Rothko currently on display which is one of the few "mature" works of his that I have ever seen that I disliked. It was done the year before his death and I don't know whether it was the harsh blue and unusual green which dominated the colors or the little band or halo of blue around the entire picture, but I hardly paused.

1689. RobertDente - Feb. 24, 1998 - 8:06 AM PDT
Message #1686 I also think Susan Rothenberg's application of paint is pretty much the same without his (Bonnard's) color skill.

1690. wabbit - Feb. 24, 1998 - 7:56 PM PDT
Robert, you will be expected to defend your position over lunch on Friday.


(nicer than pistols at dawn, n'est pas?)

1691. RobertDente - Feb. 24, 1998 - 8:08 PM PDT
Wab- Okay, butter knives at noon! >:->



(My incomming email is down so any messages should be here.)

1692. wabbit - Feb. 24, 1998 - 9:02 PM PDT
do you have a public address? I need to send you something

1693. PamIAm - Feb. 24, 1998 - 9:05 PM PDT
Use ICQ

1694. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 5:34 AM PDT
wabbit- I got the message! (Now I can't send Email.)

1695. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 9:00 AM PDT
wabbita, cara, Io parlai "Dové" non e "Quando!" (Dové=where is) The street, the street, my my figdom for the street!

1696. labarjare - Feb. 25, 1998 - 9:12 AM PDT
There was an interesting article in the Financial Times Weekend edition for 2/21-22 about the Bonnard show. In essence, knocking the fact that the blockbuster, highly hyped, multi-gift shop, corporate-sponsored art show has now hit London full blast. Ernst & Young, which is the sponsor of the Bonnard show and of an earlier Picasso one, takes a lot of gaff for the way it uses this sponsorship to..to..to..promote its business interests (private nights, etc.) The Tate takes it in the ear a bit too, in terms of being characterized as losing its perspective in its greedy use of the blockbuster for its own selfish interests (promoting its image, increasing patronage, adding credence to its desire to get $ for a new home on the South Bank since the blockbusters show that it is clearly a world class act, etc. - these objectives are to be faulted?).

The legitimatizing element to all the criticism if you will is the writer's (actually, the article is unsigned) premise that, hey, this may all be ok for, say, Picasso or Cezanne but not when the "hype" is for an artist of Bonnard's stature or lack thereof. A quote:

"London's Tate Gallery is now relying on a relatively obscure French artist, Pierre Bonnard, to work the crowds. Bonnard was a recluse, a failed civil servant, whose long life was devoted mainly to painting, and repainting, his mistress, later his wife, Marthe, in the bathroom. His work tells you more about the development of sanitary ware between 1900 and 1950 than about trends in art."

The article actually has a lot of interesting things to say, but that type of cute hyperbole drains it of a lot of its merit.

BTW - FWIW the Tate has a long way to go in terms of really clever merchandising and tie-ins. It was amateurish compared to even the Brooklyn Museum's recent after the show shopping extravaganza that was available in connection with its Monet exhibit.

1697. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 11:10 AM PDT
Lab- Thanks. George Bailey's Angel won't save the world from becoming "Pottersville." The Tate will learn the ropes of meretricious manipulation soon enough.

1698. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 11:46 AM PDT
wabbita- Come cocoa with the street--is it on Spring Street?

Quisiera que estuvieras aqui!

1699. wabbit - Feb. 25, 1998 - 12:26 PM PDT
si, Spring Street, 1pm, though I expect to see you at Gagosian before that.

gracias, mi amigo!

1700. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 1:31 PM PDT
Not-a(problem).

1701. senecio - Feb. 25, 1998 - 2:06 PM PDT
Labarjare, thanks for the informative and engaging posts about Bonnard. I have seen only one relative big Bonnard show, long ago. No doubt he is quite a significant artist -- composition, plane, sense of involvement and intimacy, detail... My problem with him may be personal. Call it color-chemistry. In much of his work it seems to me color is overly saturated, as a soft precursor to psychodelic color arrangements. By contrast, I am completely chemically compatible with Vuillard's color.

I'm with you on the Nauman-Viola contrast...

Robert, Wabbit, enjoy the NYC shows! I'll be away for a few days (BTW, who is going to be minding the store?)

1702. wabbit - Feb. 25, 1998 - 2:17 PM PDT
Out of curiousity, did anyone see this exhibit last winter?

Senecio, perhaps you will be in NYC when the Bonnard show arrives? I agree completely with you about Vuillard's colors; some of Bonnard's color combinations, not to mention a whole range of those horrible acidic yellows he seemed so fond of, give me a headache. I also get a much more personal sense of intimacy from Vuillard than I do from Bonnard, who strikes me as an observer rather than a participant.

I am assured the store will remain open until our return!

1703. labarjare - Feb. 25, 1998 - 4:43 PM PDT
aw shucks, another example of reasonable people disagreeing in what is hopefully a reasonable way. Ummmm, it is Bonnard's acidic yellows that I like best. And, further ummmm, I find Bonnard to be incredibly involved in a number of his most intimate paintings - I am thinking of the early ones of Marthe (I mentioned Indulgence the other day) and some others where he in fact makes it clear that he, the artist, is in the scene (there are a several of the bathtub paintings where this is the case). No knock on Vuillard, but....I take Pierre.

1704. wabbit - Feb. 25, 1998 - 5:41 PM PDT
Please tell me you aren't going to wear an acidic yellow tie on Friday. . . :)

Vuillard is involved with his subjects in a way that Bonnard doesn't seem able to convey, not to me, anyway. I don't doubt his enchantment with his wife, but the inclusion of himself in his paintings isn't enough. There is a distance, a coldness, perhaps from some of those hideous colors, that just shuts down the intimacy for me. Vuillard, otoh, seems more in tune with what he's looking at, more a part of the scene. So, Labj, while I don't detest Bonnard, I'll stick with Vuillard.

1705. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 6:14 PM PDT
I like both artists for different reasons. The Nabis expression favored both color and symbolism rather than appearances. Wabbit, I suspect that your printmaking background tends to favor the patterns of V. over the color extremes of B.--tenebrous shadow over colored smoke. I think V. is Walter Sickert made flatter and more modern.

1706. wabbit - Feb. 25, 1998 - 6:20 PM PDT
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you just don't want to pick a fight with me -- hahahaha!

I'm bringing the sharp knives!

1707. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 6:23 PM PDT
:-D

1708. labarjare - Feb. 25, 1998 - 6:29 PM PDT
ummm, I don't even own a yellow tie, wabbit. I do own two with little rabbits cavorting (nicely) and no doubt will wear one of those.

hideous.....hideous....colors. Bonnard? Even without permission, I feel I must borrow my friend Ad's FIRF.

I don't do emoticons, so (g).

1709. wabbit - Feb. 25, 1998 - 7:17 PM PDT
You don't like hideous? Ok, how's garish grab you? Really, his color combinations are sometimes just exquisite, but sometimes I'm sure he got into a bad batch of absinthe.

1710. labarjare - Feb. 25, 1998 - 7:44 PM PDT
just for that I am going to wear the rabbit tie with the rather startling red background instead of the more subtle brown and beige one.

1711. wabbit - Feb. 25, 1998 - 7:50 PM PDT
hahahaha, well, I can't wait to see the bunny tie!

1712. RobertDente - Feb. 25, 1998 - 7:53 PM PDT
Wabbit likes dark #STUFF!#

1713. labarjare - Feb. 25, 1998 - 7:57 PM PDT
Of course, you didn't ask whether I had an acid yellow shirt.

1714. wabbit - Feb. 25, 1998 - 8:07 PM PDT
[covers eyes]

1715. KurtMondaugen - Feb. 25, 1998 - 9:10 PM PDT
senecio:

Hey, I'm almost always lurking in here (I'm not sure if that will assuage your fears or not), FWIW. I'm currently reading a book about Mark Rothko's daughter's lawsuit against his executors and the Marlborough Galleries after Rothko's death. If you have any insight or opinion into this rather sad and interesting story, perhaps you could share it?

1716. wabbit - Feb. 26, 1998 - 2:37 AM PDT
Robert, now *that's* better!

1717. RobertDente - Feb. 26, 1998 - 6:00 AM PDT
Looks like another happenin' day in The Arts Thread!

1718. KurtMondaugen - Feb. 28, 1998 - 1:16 AM PDT
A few weeks ago, I made a brief mention of the "Beyond the Pink" festival events in Los Angeles which have just wrapped themselves up. What I was not completely aware of is that the 'Pink' events were the musical companion to the 'Out of Actions' show, which will be up through may at LA's MOCA, and is as highly essential, if not a shade or two more so, than the 'Pink' festival. Focussing on Live/Aktion/Performance/Theatrical art from 1949-1979, and featuring work by over 100 artists from the US, South America, Eastern and Western Europe, and Japan who have had a large impact on the relationship between visual and performance art in the postwar era. It's as comprehensive a show of this sort as will likely ever be seen (and, as a bonus, its handy pre-80s cut-off date eliminates the childish and/or embarrasing misrepresentations of the whole "Kitchen" crowd [L. Anderson, K. Finley, A. Magnusson, etc], although, to be fair, its 1949 start-up date also eliminates historical context [F. Marinetti, T. Tzara, O. Schlemmer, etc]), featuring sculptures, publications, drawings, photographs, performance ephemera and documentary film/video footage by a vast group of seminal, and in some cases almost legendary, figures. For an example of the scope of this exhibit, check out this tiny sampling of represented artists: Gutai's Kazuo Shiraga, Carolee Schneemann, Jackson Pollack, John Cage, Lucio Fontana, Georges Mathieu, the immortal Yves Klein, Jean Tinguely, Niki de Saint Phalle, Piero Manzoni, Robert Rauschenberg, Allan Kaprow, Jim Dine, Claes Oldenberg, Ben Vautier, Nam June Paik, Yoko Ono, Joseph Bueys, Hermann Nitsch, Bruce Nauman, Chris Burden, Paul McCarthy, the wonderful Yayoi Kusama, Rudolf Schwarzkogler, Gilbert & George, Charlotte Moorman, Vito Acconci, and a large smattering of Fluxus representatives [Maciunas, Brecht, Knowles, Fox, Higgins] among many, many others. To me, anyway, this is truly essential stuff. I'm holding the show

1719. KurtMondaugen - Feb. 28, 1998 - 1:21 AM PDT
show's formidable 400pp catalogue in my hand as I type this, and am about ready to faint from sheer conceptual overload. I'd stronly urge anyone in the SoCal area, familiar or bewildered, to take at least a cursory look (and send me souvenirs).

And, as if that weren't enough, those of you who may be in or near Vienna in August will have the chance to attent Hermann Nitsch's OM Theatre's 100th and final Aktion at Nitsch's castle. This culminative event will be a consecutive six day event (with 2 hrs per evening allotted for sleep), and should be not only highly entertaining and alien, but historically important as well. For only 700dm, YOU TOO can roll around naked in vats of cow guts while playing tuba and drinking homemade wine. I'm gladly accepting donations from any benevolent sponsors who would like to see me and mine there for this.