From: AngelPie_Mouse  <AngelPie_Mouse@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 2:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Need Your Help

Actually, she may not have written those superfluous tags at all. SafeHTML
1.1 has a tendency to add information it thinks necessary and, as I
mentioned before, to cut off what it doesn't like.

The nested tables you are illustrating are code modules I provided which
allow a background in the message area and permit the text to wrap around a
graphic.  I am using it on CFC_Experimental.  And yes, I tested it
thoroughly before I published it on our club newsletter.  However, I admit
that in the process, I discovered that the protection script Yahoo! imposes
between the composition and preview areas and the actual display has several
drawbacks.  Among these are: the favoring of IE command structures not
recognized by those using browsers conforming to international HTML
guidelines and the imposition of redundancies as already mentioned.  It also
counts white space as character code, or so it appears, so you have to pack
your HTML code as tight as possible (no carriage returns in the code line).
This fact makes it difficult for novice HTML users to pick the code apart or
to use a WYSIWYG HTML editor.

Again, I have been trying to get Yahoo! to give us more parameters on this
script or at least define source so that we may investigate the
restrictions.  I've received no answer.

From: AngelPie_Mouse  <AngelPie_Mouse@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 3:04pm
Subject: Re: Fw: [eGs] Yahoo Groups Site Downtime - Wednesday June 27th

From: Ferris Bueller  <ferris_bueller12345@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 3:43pm
Subject: Re: Need Your Help

I was unaware of this.  Thanks for the info.  Is it the SafeHTML that 
is putting in those </IMG> tags? or is it the user?  I had never even 
heard of closing an <IMG> tag before. [IMHO, it's a bit silly]

I was aware of tailoring the scripting toward IE or Netscape.  Tags 
such as the <blink> or <marquee> don't work everywhere.  I normally 
try to use a little of both so no one gets left out of the fun.

As for imbedded tables, I've not had a problem with them.  Of course, 
I tend to stick with IE, but I haven't gotten any complaints yet so 
I'm taking that as a good sign.

Again, I didn't mean to step on your toes, I was just trying to 
elaborate a bit on the answer by proposing another alternate cause.

Ferris
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Y_Group_Owners

From: AngelPie_Mouse  <AngelPie_Mouse@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 5:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Need Your Help

Yes, it is the script that enters that image close tag.  And you are quite
right, it is silly, redundant, and wasteful of the precious little space we
are allowed.  However, you were not stepping on my toes to comment on this
stuff.  I'm learning and testing the limitations just as you are and know I
have a lot more to learn.  If there is a way to do it better, let's get to
it.

In creating the plug in modules, I was hoping to help folks who have no HTML
experience or who rely solely on WYSIWYG editors.  I am what is termed a
"hard code" HTML author.  I use a notepad or plain text editor only to
create webpages.  I find most authoring software overwrites the code, fills
a page with waste of space and empty tag sets (e.g.: <center> </center> and
loads of white space between, artifacts from drag and drop).  Frequently, it
is these artifacts that cause page errors such as broken tables, too large
font, etc.

On the less advantageous side, when you hard code, you tend to fall into bad
habits and use tried and true forms (dialogue to self: "it works, why go
beyond that?").  Occassionally, you also forget that you need to make
accomodation for the discrepencies between browsers and between video and
monitor handling.  What looks great on my top of the line 19" flat screen
set for a 800x600 true color or higher may really look awful on a 13" VGA
capable of only 256 color.  The bottomline on the technology is: do you want
to dazzle them, or do you want to communicate?  My personal choice has
always been communication.  I leave the razzle dazzle to others who may not
have as much to say.

And now that we've thoroughly confused the less technically experienced
members of our group, how about offering up some notions of code of your
own?  How would you design a front page owner/moderator message?

From: Ferris Bueller  <ferris_bueller12345@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 6:34pm
Subject: Re: AngelPie_Mouse

Like you, I tend to do my HTML on the fly in notepad.  I taught 
myself how to program in HTML by looking at straight HTML and so 
that's how I do it today.  Sure, I have frontpage, I don't like it.  
I think it's too constricting.  Besides, I have the whole thing 
planned out in my head as I type anyway, I just cut and paste it into 
Frontpage to publish it at work on the intranet.

As much as I like to try to conform to the various standards and 
monitor settings and browser requirements, blah blah blah... I also 
like to have a little fun with my code.

The way I figure it, I try to hit the big 2, NN and IE when I go for 
conformity in the code.  When I go for screen size, I change the 
settings on my monitor to check and see if it isn't too big when 
someone else looks at it (I keep my type very very very small on my 
screen because I ABSOLUTELY HATE to scroll on pages)  So on monitor 
size, I try to accomodate.

On colors....well, you've got me there.  Frankly I look at it like 
the library does.  Not everyone has poor vision and we're not going 
to print all of the books in large type.  I tend to keep my graphics 
in the grownup color spectrum.  If they don't look good on your 
monitor, upgrade.  Most of the time I generate graphics myself and 
I'm not going to limit myself to primary colors.  I don't think 
Matisse would have gotten as far as he did had he limited the range 
of colors he was using.  He sure didn't stick to B&W for the color 
blind either.

And now that we've thoroughly confused the less technically 
experienced members of our group, again, >>...how about offering up 
some notions of code of your own?  How would you design a front page 
owner/moderator message?<<

I never put a pic in the slot where they want me to put a pic.  i 
don't know, call it the rebel in me or whatever, I just never liked 
where they want you to put it.  Also, I like to go for balance in 
that if I DO put a pic on the left, I place one on the right as well 
so the screen doesn't fall over because of the weight. ;o)

I tend to keep everything centered.  Sometimes I do a central pic 
with right justified text on the left and left justified text on the 
right.  I'm a real nut when it comes to symmetry.  I'll spend a good 
while even balancing the words to make it look OK.

One thing that I REALLY like to do is limit the width of the 
description.  I'll create a table to house the entire thing so it is 
the same layout on anyones comp. (You'll notice that the words shift 
around as you shrink and grow the browser size in most groups.  Like 
I said before, I like things to stay where I place them.)

I also go ahead and place a link in the message for someone to join 
so it is right there in the center of the screen when they arrive.

Anyway, I'm rambling about on things as I often do.

Feel free to check out my group [which currently has 1 member, me] @:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group.Y_Group_Owners

Ferris

From: Ferris Bueller  <ferris_bueller12345@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 7:01pm
Subject: OK so here's something I dislike about groups... :-(

i just spent a good while composing a message to you guys and 
hit "Preview".  Afterwhich, I hit alt-left (shortcut for back) to go 
back and edit the message.

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Guess what...

All those things I was going to share with you guys....

Gone.

You'll have to catch me on another day to get me to type it all out 
again.  I'm upset right now.

If you ever compose a long message, make sure that you hit the "EDIT" 
button to go back or you will lose it ALL!!!

Bad habits rolling over from my days in clubs.

While I'm on topic, I also dislike the fact that I can't just hit F5 
(shortcut for refresh)to get back to the "HOME" screen like I could 
in Clubs.

Most everything else, I like.

ferris

Have I mentioned that I've all but disconnected my mouse?  Sure it's 
handy for some people, I hate to stop my roll on the keyboard to go 
over to the mouse and move it.  Shortcut keys are the way to go.

From: Ferris Bueller  <ferris_bueller12345@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 7:53pm
Subject: A Note on this club's description section...

Take it for what it's worth (and this ties in with my affinity for 
symmetry) but the HTML that you entered into your Description section 
has the photos of our "Hosts" off center from the text above it.

The way you are wrapping the words on the right of the group photo is 
partially to blame for this...
my having a large screen is also partially to blame.

Instead of having an embedded <table> for the photo, if you'll place 
it in its own <td valign="top"> in the big table beside of another 
<td valign="top"><center> for the text area, then it will not throw 
off the center when it goes down further than the picture.

Do you see what I'm saying?  I wonder if I'm describing it well 
enough...?

f-b

From: Gwen  <mistybunny@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 4:27am
Subject: Re: OK so here's something I dislike about groups... :-(

THanks for sharing your dislikes with us, but perhaps
sending them to Yahoo! Might be more beneficial since
they are the ones that can do something about them,
and we can't.

Gwen


=====
"If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred
minus one day, so I never have to live without you." 
-Winnie the Pooh

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From: Ferris Bueller  <ferris_bueller12345@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:42am
Subject: Re: OK so here's something I dislike about groups... :-(

I was really just venting a little frustration.  Like I said, I'm 
happy for the most part.  I can see Groups going a long way.

f-b

--- In CFC_EXPERIMENTAL@y..., Gwen <mistybunny@y...> wrote:
> THanks for sharing your dislikes with us, but perhaps
> sending them to Yahoo! Might be more beneficial since
> they are the ones that can do something about them,
> and we can't.
> 
> Gwen
> 
> 
> =====
> "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred
> minus one day, so I never have to live without you." 
> -Winnie the Pooh
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From: Mal  <maloozuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2001 0:17pm
Subject: Re: You're Welcome!

Thankyou for your speedy reply, I've been away for a few days and I'm 
just catching up. I have decided that I will leave all the 
complicated stuff to the experts until I've become more experienced. 
My members seem quite happy with the group pics I have downloaded 
onto homepages and after a bit of fiddling with group descriptions, 
it looks good now.
I would be very grateful for any advice, from any source, I am 
already a member of many founder/owner clubs including yours, and I 
read updates regularly, including the technical stuff, which at the 
moment honestly goes over my head..lol
My members seem to be coming to terms with groups and I have just 
loaded a simple HOW IT WORKS folder for them.

My two groups are both in the adult section and their urls are below.

a group for females and couples
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/30_plus_bi_fems

a group for all genders
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/30plus_bisexuals

If you sort out the "codes" etc for me I will give it another go, 
thanks again for all your help..keep up the good work
hugs...malxxx

From: Gwen  <mistybunny@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 3:44am
Subject: Time for me to play!

Okay folks, I was curious about a couple of things, so the next 
messages from me are just test messages, because I'm playing here.

Gwen
~mistybunny~

From: Gwen  <mistybunny@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 3:45am
Subject: test 2

I wanted to know how this comes out in a different language

From: Gwen  <mistybunny@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 3:46am
Subject: Test 2 - Special Announcement

Please remember this message is only a test and is NOT a special 
announcement for anything.

G

From: Gwen  <mistybunny@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 3:49am
Subject: Re: test 2

Sorry folks, it didn't come in a diff language, it was
supposed to be Japanese.....I wonder if converted
because of personal settings,......back to the playing
I guess.

Thanks for being patient.

G


--- Gwen <mistybunny@y...> wrote:
> I wanted to know how this comes out in a different
> language
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> CFC_EXPERIMENTAL-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


=====
"If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred
minus one day, so I never have to live without you." 
-Winnie the Pooh

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

From: lokrin2000@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 8:29am
Subject: Languages

I think that the languauge option only 'tags' the language as being 
such, so that someone with that language option on their computer can 
see it in the language.  Sorta like the fact that the group itself 
has a language associated with it, so that people who speak that 
language can do searches and find places that 'speak' their 
language.  My group is set up for 'Chattisgari' (or however it is 
spelled, only because I had no idead what that language was and it is 
in the options.  It does not affect a thing that I can see.

Lokrin