Babble v1 183

babble-digest Wednesday, February 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 183

In this issue:
Re: Stability of flash + banner advertising?
Re: maximize windows?
re: gettin paid . . .
Contextual links
Re: Contextual links
Re: maximize windows?
Re: gettin paid - gettin screwed
all that newfangled web stuff
Re: use pixels, not points (CSS)
Department name
Re: Department name
Legal Contracts
Re: all that newfangled web stuff
Re: all that newfangled web stuff
saturation (gettin paid - gettin screwed)
Re: not good enough

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:23:14 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Miguel_Fuentes_Garc=EDa?= <mfuentes@seresco.es>
Subject: Re: Stability of flash + banner advertising?

I did a banner using flash for a cable company. They don't
use it properly: the code of html is incorrect and they use it
in a different place than I designed for. It works for the first time,
but, when using the site, there's a lot of movement around.

http://www.telecable.es/index2.html
(I was exploring and learning Flash, it's my second or third flash,
so don't compare me with gabo. 8-)

But I think, the most important thing is that it's Only 18K .

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:37:04 -0500 (EST)
From: morten <morten@morten.dk>
Subject: Re: maximize windows?

I have found to ways to do this:
Either make a new window and set resize=0 (default)
well it works at my site (http://www.morten.dk)
or make a frameset like the topcow site -
http://www.topcow.com/topcow/topcow.html

morten

>when desiging, do you people out there, generally, consider the possibility
>that the end user may maximize the window ? as we all know, even if you
>declare a pop up window size the user can still max it out and screw up
>your design . i like comprehende's work around, just wonder if anyone else
>has some useful hacks . esp. when it comes to bleeding over right edges .
>
>
>jeff faulkner
>

ego trippin - http://www.morten.dk
morten@morten.dk * morten@yaboo.dk
ichat: mortendk * ICQ: 7214487

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:55:22 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: re: gettin paid . . .

>A possible client with a 150 page marketing plan and a concept for an
>incredibly involved web project comes to our attention. Client has moved
>to Ithaca for "cheap yet qualified student labor."

Any client that says this out loud needs to be dumped immediately. They are
ONLY looking for CHEAP labor...NOT quality work, competent designers or
professional results. (DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying that your firm can't do
quality/competant/professional work...I'm just saying that the client isn't
looking for that)

If the client already had estimates in the $100,000 range, then it seems to
suggest that IS the scope of the project.

>We feel we are worth more than
>this amount.

You are. Also keep in mind that when your firm gets into the real world,
you probably don't want any client that thinks your rates are 'too high'
and decide to go hunt some cheap labor at the college. They are obviously
not looking for good work.

While I was at art school I had two experiences like this...where a
proessional organization/business wanted some students to design. As
students, we took the apporach 'sure they are paying us crap, but hey! It's
great exposure'.

Long story short: I got screwed...both times. The final work was NEVER
something I would even WANT others to see...so the exposure thing was gone,
and as students, I probably worked twice as long as I should have for less
money than working at Burger King.

Never again.

Don't even consider this client...they are taking advantage of you.

- -Darrel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 08:11:15 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: Contextual links

I have recently created an adequate site for a local nonprofit. It uses
a pretty straightforward general-to-specific hierarchical layout. Now
that I have a basic site done I am adding content and want to "clean it
up".

One of the things I am looking for is presenting links for in site
navigation. Most sites seem to be links to a section top page and while
I have those in the simple navigation system I am looking to increase
the inter page linking within the content itself. Frankly, I haven't
seen a lot of sites that do that.

Is this idea something most designers applaud? Its nice to be able to
jump around the site but does it distract the viewer's focus? For
example, if they are reading about a particular program should they be
able to jump to another program in the first sentence? First paragraph?
Please note I am the principal in site maintenence.

For my intranet I try to make text links very contextual. I try to avoid
the "click here" syndrome despite my boss' demands for it.

If design is making the appropriate decisions for presenting content are
contextual links a good thing to aim for or a bad thing to avoid? I
think this is dependent in large part on the content and site focus. For
example, looking for software patches will probably avoid contextual
links while a site about an artist would likely use them.

Hope this spurs some decent discussion and no disses on my design
theory! *^_^*

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:48:51 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Contextual links

I don't have any rule of thumb in this area, but I certainly use contextual
links within the body of paragraphs. One thing to think about would be the
relative importance of the link.

If, for example, in the description of a product you were referencing
another product in passing, linking the name of that other product in the
text would probably be sufficient. On the other hand, if you were making
reference to a related product that you wanted to draw the visitor's
attention to, you may be better served by something like a sidebar with a
link and a brief description of the product that is separate from the main
text.

As usual, the answer is basically, "It depends." You gotta love the
decisive nature of our work . . .

- - Porter

At 08:11 AM 2/4/98 -0500, Andrew Zimmerman wrote:
[snip]
>One of the things I am looking for is presenting links for in site
>navigation. Most sites seem to be links to a section top page and while
>I have those in the simple navigation system I am looking to increase
>the inter page linking within the content itself. Frankly, I haven't
>seen a lot of sites that do that.
>
>Is this idea something most designers applaud? Its nice to be able to
>jump around the site but does it distract the viewer's focus? For
>example, if they are reading about a particular program should they be
>able to jump to another program in the first sentence? First paragraph?
>Please note I am the principal in site maintenence.
[snip]

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:46:58 -0500
From: c l a r a s o h <clara.soh@yale.edu>
Subject: Re: maximize windows?

hi i just wanted to put my two cents in here. as a person who spends more
time surfing than actually doing the designing that i should be doing, i
have found the resize=0 tag very annoying. usually even in the most well
designed sites, the window size many times will interfere with navigation
- -- it cuts off important information on the margins, and then will not let
me resize. i understand that there is a strong desire to control what the
viewer sees, but i'd say in the majority of cases that i've come across it
doesn't work. my screen res is at 1280, so it really shouldn't be a
problem to view anything. i'm trying to think up an example..

... i think i was trying to download a new version of quicktime, and apple
changed its page to give a popup window with download sites and info. the
problem was that i could neither scroll or resize, and i could see the
sentence cut off right before "...click here for download" or whatever i
could only dream of seeing. sigh. so there was really nothing i could do
and i ended up getting a copy off the local network.

sorry about the long "babbling" post.
clara

>Either make a new window and set resize=0 (default)
[---]
>>when desiging, do you people out there, generally, consider the possibility
>>that the end user may maximize the window ? as we all know, even if you
>>declare a pop up window size the user can still max it out and screw up

____________________________________________________________________
H o s A r a l c
tdh- sduolc eht ot klat od i fi em emalb ton tsum uoy
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:49:58 -0700
From: Trope newMedia <trope@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: gettin paid - gettin screwed

here it is, everyone's favorite issue - THE VALUE OF TECHNOLOGY .

so let me get this straight, this guy - a potential client - asked you - a
cornell graduate - to program his site, tweak the back end as well as the
"customization of various VB apps and pre-existing software" ? and he wants
you to do it for $12 an hour ? (sounds like you handle only the tech, and
not the design?)

either this guy thinks you're a total flake, he's on crack or this signals
the beginning of McTechnology . i'll let others debate the inherent value
of a programmers work, but as far as the market is concerned, the more of
you there are the less value you all have . and it seems the market is
getting saturated .

ideas have value . creativity has value . even if there is a lot of it, it
will always be worth a lot . programming, to a growing number of business
people i've worked with lately, is on par with an oil change . in their
bottom line mindset, is has little creative value . i don't agree
personally . programming is highly creative . maybe not as creative as
design, but in terms of web design, these two aspects, although completely
different, are perfectly inseperable .

i've noticed a big change in how some clients handle this issue over the
last year . at first they paid a straight hourly for design as well as
programming . now two have said they don't want me "wasting my time" on
programming - that they can pay some "kid" to do it for a lot less . in my
opinion, to be an effective web designer you have to program as well .
still i'm finding an increasing number of people who would rather i
maximize their visual image as opposed to slapping their code .

i say stay your ground and hold out for more cash . if you don't have to
work on location, give this potential client a $ cap and simply work
extremely fast . if you're starting out you need to build your portfolio,
and if you're a designer, go out and get a pro bono client who will let you
take control of art direction . chances are if this guy thinks you're worth
only $12 an hour he's not going to take your direction very seriously .
tremenous exposure of a mediocre site can do tremendous damge to your
reputation . i know, i've been there .

for your sake, for everyone's sake, keep your prices up . good luck .

jeff faulkner

____________________________________________
<b>TropE new media creative</b> now up and running at
http://www.teleport.com/~trope
_____________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:01:30 -0600
From: jason kottke <jason@imationstudio.com>
Subject: all that newfangled web stuff

greetings,

i'm feeling a little frisky this morning so i thought i would throw out a
topic for discussion.

the new 4.0 browsers have been out for several months now and i haven't
seen much in the way of people utilizing the new browser features. there
are a few sites here and there using some simple stuff but there has been
very little mainstream acceptance of the new features (css, dhtml, etc.) i
remember back when ns 2.0 came out, there were frames and java and
javascript everywhere about 2 months after the release. people were nuts
about it...they couldn't wait to put the latest features on their sites.

it just seems to me that with the addition of the 4.0 features, publishing
a simple web site is getting too complicated. i used to be right up there
on the bleeding edge...doing javascript rollovers with the beta releases of
ns3...but it's just too much for me now. everything i want to do, either
for my personal site or for sites i do for work, i can do with good old
html 3.2. i've played around with the 4.0 stuff, but everytime i get going,
i get discouraged at the scope of it all. i keep asking myself, "i need to
set up a stylesheet and specify all these objects and code this page-long
javascript just to get this little bit of information across to my viewer?
i must be crazy to be doing all that. the technology and the end result is
cool, but..."

eventually, there's a point at which the new features are not worth the
trouble and people are just not going to worry about them. i think that the
originator(s) of the web had that in mind when they came up with this whole
thing. The SGML spec (of which HTML is a subset) existed way before the web
came along (1986 or so), but they decided to go with the simpler HTML spec
because it was so easy for everyone to publish things. it was mostly text,
a couple tags, and away you go; anyone with a browser can see your stuff.
with the 3.0 browsers, it's pretty much the same, at least for me. give me
photoshop and a text editor, and i can do my job. with the 4.0 stuff, the
learning curve just seems too high, especially with the absence of good
tools (dreamweaver notwithstanding) that hide all the complicated stuff and
just let the designer do his job.

is anyone else in this boat? or am i just being lazy and i should get off
my ass and learn this stuff? sorry for the long and rambling post.

- -jason

http://web.0sil8.com
"happiness is yelling bingo"
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:26:19 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: use pixels, not points (CSS)

***
>Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au> wrote:
>We have just trialed setting type size using pixels
>(12px) rather then
>using points (12pt) in CSS. This seems to have provided
>very good type size
>compatibility across platforms.
***

i've done this myself and posted it to another list as a "cure-all" for
cross-platform font woes.

there are two caveats.

1. as brian platz points out (on another list) the px setting in css
can have unintended results when printing the docs, depending on printer
resolution.

12 pt is 12 pt to a printer.

12 px will vary between, say, 300 lpi printers and 600 lpi printers.

the printout could be rendered unreadable. two pages might be used to print
a headline. etc.

for this reason i restrict the px css setting to graphics-oriented pages
that are unlikely to be printed; and use it only when i would otherwise
have used a type gif ... for instance, if i want to make certain that a
headline is exactly the same height as the logo that is left-aligned next
to it. px is invaluable for that, and the only way to ensure it.

2. with crude vga resolution on older "office" monitors, it doesn't
work properly. (windows problem only, but there are a lot of windows users,
as we know.) not a problem for windows users with high-res display.

jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"Slick and experimental." - Mediadome

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:43:06 -0800
From: Suzanne <Suzanne@KickassDesign.com>
Subject: Department name

Hi Babblers,

I'm a Web/print designer living near Ashland, Oregon. My designer husband
Dave and I have just begun a new gig as Co-Creative Directors of StarSeed,
an Internet software developer and owner of the WebRing system.

I would appreciate your creative input for a name for the department that
we're starting up. It will handle both print and Web design. It will report
directly to the company president rather than being under the marketing
manager or some other department. "Graphic design" doesn't seem to
encompass enough because a lot of what we'll be doing is Web design.
"Creative Services" brings back horrible memories of my stint in the
creative services dept. or a major newspaper. Dave thinks the name should
be "Department of Interstellar Communications." What can I say? That's Dave
for you.

Your ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks, Suz

Suzanne Stephens
_________________________________________________________
Stephens Design, 541-535-4699 http://www.KickassDesign.com
CyberCircus Grand Prize Winners http://www.thecybercircus.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 14:08:08 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: Department name

> I'm a Web/print designer living near Ashland, Oregon. My designer husband
>Dave and I...

A designer husband? Gee, you can buy those now? The times we live in...

Ryan Ferguson
signacct@signweb.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:07:22 -0800
From: Kristopher Couch <kcouch@gate.cks.com>
Subject: Legal Contracts

I'm attempting to set-up my first contract for freelance web design, and was
just wondering if any of the veterans out there have any advice.

What should it contain in the hopes to avoid being "screwed" later on? What
makes it legally binding?

Thanks in advance.

- --
Kristopher B. Couch
kcouch@gate.cks.com
CKS | Silicon Valley
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 13:08:59 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff

I think the reason why notmany people are using advanced features compared to
when Netscape 2 came out can be boiled down to one thing: browser
incompatibility. When Netscape 2 came out it was really the only game in town.
Now with IE grabbing about half the marketshare and IE4 and NS4 being
incompatible with most "advanced" features it just isn't worth much to push
those features.

There are many people trying DHTML but they are almost all IE only. Cross
browser use is minimal.

Maybe when NS5 and IE5 come out we will have more compatibility. I hope so
butI am not holding my breath.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:14:27 -0700
From: Trope newMedia <trope@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: all that newfangled web stuff

>the new 4.0 browsers have been out for several months now and i haven't
>seen much in the way of people utilizing the new browser features. there
>are a few sites here and there using some simple stuff but there has been
>very little mainstream acceptance of the new features (css, dhtml, etc.) i
>remember back when ns 2.0 came out, there were frames and java and
>javascript everywhere about 2 months after the release. people were nuts
>about it...they couldn't wait to put the latest features on their sites.

good point . i have yet to see any really good clean elegant examples of
the 4.0 stuff . i like what webmonkey has done with their body text, short
of that the wired design bites IMHO . i clearly need to surf more . can
anyone point to some cool stuff ?

>it just seems to me that with the addition of the 4.0 features, publishing
>a simple web site is getting too complicated. i used to be right up there
>on the bleeding edge...doing javascript rollovers with the beta releases of
>ns3...but it's just too much for me now. everything i want to do, either

hmmm...i believe that if you don't keep up and find new ways to integrate
the new technology
someone else will and you'll be replaced . bring on the high learning
curves, it's what keeps the competitive spirit alive and the mediocrity in
the rear view mirror . i think people are starting to think of web design
as a diy thing . you know "anyone can build a webpage" ?? the truth is
anyone can build a crappy webpage . it takes hard work and a lot more to
design an effective one .

the difference between brad johnson http://www.secondstory.com and some
fuck who got a pirated copy of site mill to put up a site for his uncle's
jewelry story is the difference between wieden kennedy and a garage sale
flyer in my opinion . it's not about striving to do your best . it's about
striving to do THE best .

jeff faulkner

____________________________________________
<b>TropE new media creative</b> now up and running at
http://www.teleport.com/~trope
_____________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:47:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Lara Schmidt <lara@coe.missouri.edu>
Subject: saturation (gettin paid - gettin screwed)

Hey folks,

Let me give you my standpoint on this AND ask a question. How many of you,
on this list, live in San Francisco, New York, Chicago or some other major
metropolitan area? I would imagine that most of you do. I could be wrong,
but bare with me. Although the internet is supposed to make geography
inconsequential in commerce, it hasn't yet. There are many places
(especially in the midwest) where internet access is common, but internet
services are few. Web design firms are few and far between and frankly,
way below par for the industry. And local business owners are VERY focused
on keeping dollars in the area.

I live in mid-Missouri and have freelance works absolutely jumping into my
lap. I also have a good paying on-going web job w/flex hours via the
University of Missouri. I wanted to move out of the boonies, but then I
figured, why up my competition and down my relative pay?

There aren't many GOOD web designers out here. The web designers there are
mostly try to band together and form design firms, but their pages stink!
They either can't code worth a damn or they can't design worth a damn. Why
would a small local business want to pay a firm's price when a one-person
show can give them what they want, oftentimes BETTER than the more
expensive competition? That's not saying that my labor is cheap, but if
one well-rounded worker can get the job done, why hire a ton of people?
And no matter HOW many firms there are, someone needs to raise the bar on
quality.

> but as far as the market is concerned, the more of
> you there are the less value you all have . and it seems the market is
> getting saturated .

I would agree. And when it saturates with quality product here, I'll move.
:)

> i've noticed a big change in how some clients handle this issue over the
> last year . at first they paid a straight hourly for design as well as
> programming . now two have said they don't want me "wasting my time" on
> programming - that they can pay some "kid" to do it for a lot less .
But they'll _never_ get the same level of quality that they would if their
design and code came from the same place, if not the same person.
> in my
> opinion, to be an effective web designer you have to program as well .
EXACTLY.

> i say stay your ground and hold out for more cash . if you don't have to
> work on location, give this potential client a $ cap and simply work
> extremely fast. if you're starting out you need to build your portfolio,
> and if you're a designer, go out and get a pro bono client who will let you
> take control of art direction . chances are if this guy thinks you're worth
> only $12 an hour he's not going to take your direction very seriously .
> tremenous exposure of a mediocre site can do tremendous damge to your
> reputation . i know, i've been there .
ALL VERY GOOD ADVICE, worth repeating.

|----------Lara Anne Schmidt--------------lara@coe.missouri.edu------|
|Officially: Web Applications Developer, CTIE |
|Unofficially: poet, musician, web designer and generally artsy gal |
|--------www.coe.missouri.edu/~lara-------------------ICQ# 5739596---|

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:14:26 -0600
From: "M. Howard" <dogbird@gte.net>
Subject: Re: not good enough

I disagree with L. Harpold. There is room for change on any side of most fences. If the "business world" is the model for all human interaction, and the direction in which we should therefore adjust our sensorial and textual output, then we might all throw in the towel. Anyway, the subject asked for people to look at his personal homepage, not review his professional portfolio.

And also, gee wiz, A FLAME IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL CRITIQUE.

>
>At 04:35 PM 2/3/98 +0200, Juha Rudanko wrote:
>>After asking people to review my site, I received an unencouraging
>>flame. Everyone seems to think I don't belong to this list because I'm
>>not a designer. I'm here to learn, but you perfect folk might not
>>understand that. I'm just trying to be a better web designer, ok??!
>>Maybe I'm not "advanced" enough for this list, as I'm 14 years old. At
>>least I just got my first client.
>
>
>Therein lies the rub. If you want to be a business person, and taken
>seriously as such, you have to expect to answer to the standards of
>excellence your industy sets, or better still create them. The bar is
>high, and you should look at that as a way to propel you upwards. If you
>wnat to be a successful business person, and not just a novelty act, you
>need to be willing to say "okay, are you right and my work is bad or are
>you wrong and this is exactly the work I want to present?"
>
>You can't say take me seriously as a businessperson even though I'm only 14
>but be extra gentle with me becuase I'm only 14.
>
>You need to make a decision. Suck up some of the hits you may not be
>mature enough to handle, or postpone the business world until you're
>feeling stronger.
>
>Business does not care how old you are.
>
>
>leslie harpold
>http://smug.com http://www.hoopla.com
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>"the answer is there, but 'there' is not a
>fixed position" - Fugazi
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

_________________________________________________________________________
"Don't worry! Without a monster or two, it's not a Quest at all-- merely a gaggle of friends wandering about."
-- Owl, Pooh's friend.

Margaret Howard
Director/Designer
Dogbird Graphics, Poetics, & Sound
http://www.nmc.siu.edu/~mhoward
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #183
****************************

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