Babble v1 182

babble-digest Wednesday, February 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 182

In this issue:
The Future of Flash
Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo
Re: CSS degradation was IE4 mac CSS problems
Use pixels not points, was Re: Link to different stylesheets
Flash books...
100% Flash/Flash books...
Re:Flames/Juha
gettin paid . . .
Re: gettin paid . . .
Re: Stability of flash + banner advertising?

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:35:16 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: The Future of Flash

Dear list,
A few months ago, I picked up Flash and started playing around with it
and visiting "flashed" sites and saying "How'd they do that?" and kept
creating some practice sequences using the same theory. When i heard about
the gabocorp, I was wowed by this person's use of Flash, and later I found out
how he did the site. It is a great technology. Though, it does have limits,
as we all probably know. If Flash doesn't provide a way soon for easier
updating, incorporation of HTML, JavaScript, and other programming languages,
I feel it is doomed for competition with Microsoft PowerPoint. I am using it
for a 10 minutes science project presentation and "report book" as we speak.
However, if Flash does provide us with more incorporation of programming
languages and other things that could be used as Flash elements, then I could
think Flash would be the biggest hit for the web so far.
Think about it, vector graphics, resolution independent, cross browser
capabilities, could be the binding force of the Internet and set a standard.
It might seem farfetched, maybe not, let it rest in the hands of Macromedia.

Thanks,
Gil Kruger
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:47:37 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Re: IE4 Mac CSS Problem Demo

> What's even stranger (and sadder) than Microsoft's indifference is
>the web design community's indifference. I get the feeling a lot of people
>are just saying, "What the hell, I'll switch to NT, and then Microsoft's
>browser will work." Sledgehammer subterranean marketing, if you ask me.

It's this indiference that seems to be a major problem. However from my
stats for January only 2% of requests came from effected browsers (for this
problem) so it's not a huge community of people who are noticing. I guess
this is part of the reason I would like to place the 'warning' on the
sites, however, in context the warning is coming more from my client then
from me and this raises some interesting questions.

> As to designing two sets of pages, I would never do that. Wrote
>about it back when CSS first reared its head. No content is worth that.
>(Certainly not mine.) ;)

I agree, I have never designed duplicate sites to suit different browsers
or platforms for any reason. Managing these sites would be a nightmare
(inside the existing one). I guess what really annoys me is Microsofts
recent hype about paying attention to the Mac community and how they think.
>From the little I have seen of Office 98 this seems to be true, but
Explorer is a different matter again. I Apple ever ships IE4 with Mac's
I'll have more then a few words to say.

Anyway, on with it,

Chris

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:26:45 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Re: CSS degradation was IE4 mac CSS problems

>Chris McLay wrote:
>
>> The only solution we have that "works" is to create two versions of the
>> site, one using standard HTML for pre-CSS browsers and the other using only
>> CSS. This is unacceptable to me, as the amount of work in creating, testing
>
><SNIP>
>
>Not be a jerk, but aside from a global find and replace on the <P> tag what
>else is involved with maintaining two separate sites? I realize you can't
>always do this as a solution but in my limited experience in making non-CSS
>browsers degrade CSS adequately, I put almost twice as much tags in the page.
>This defeats the purpose of CSS.

It does defeat the purpose of CSS. But maintaining two sites is not a
simple search and replace operation. Even if you did this when you created
the whole site (and it worked!), changes and updates become a nightmare.

___________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:22:10 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Use pixels not points, was Re: Link to different stylesheets

>Is there a way to link to different stylesheets depending on what
>platform is being used by the visitor. Like a java-script or something
>that does it all by itself? For example I don´t like when the fonts
>that are 10 points on my Mac turns out to be 18 or something on PC.
>And then this <P>-problem...

We have just trialed setting type size using pixels (12px) rather then
using points (12pt) in CSS. This seems to have provided very good type size
compatibility across platforms.

Chris

___________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 22:27:05 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Flash books...

There are only 2 Flash books at the moment, but there will be a whole
lot more really soon, I'm sure. I sat in the bookstore and went through
them both before taking one of them home.

I have and highly recommend:

Flash! Creating Web Animation
by Darrel Plant
from Peachpit's Macromedia imprint
ISBN 0-201-69666-5
C$41.95/U$29.95
http://www.peachpit.com/peachpit/titles/catalog/69666.html

also available, although it did not appeal to me in the store:

Flash2 Web Animation Book
by Ken Milburn & Janine Warner
from Ventana (now merged with Coriolis)
ISBN: 1566047323
C$47.95/U$34.99
http://www.coriolis.com/cgi-win/tipsheet.exe/tipsheet?name=7323

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 22:27:15 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: 100% Flash/Flash books...

I love it! Alberto's work:

http://www.gabocorp.com

has now spawned an expression 'gabocorp'd', as in a 100% Flash site. I
can hear the screaming/sputtering from some designers now...

There is such a thing as moderation but there are times definitely times
when such a site is completely appropriate.

Movies site spring to mind, not all movie sites, just some, such at
Gattaca - short cut URL:

http://www.gattaca.com

The interesting thing about the Gattaca site is that it uses a lot of
photographs within its Flash movies. A lot of people are under the
impression, for some reason, that only drawings can be used in Flash.

An excellent flash site is

http://www.spumco.com

and if that site looks a bit familiar when you get there, it is the guy
who does Rem and Stimpy.

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 14:53:19 +0900
From: Rod <rod@nastything.com>
Subject: Re:Flames/Juha

Hi Jaha,

My god,your only fourteen! I have socks older than that!

At this point if you do nothing but make mistakes you'll be
fine,as long as you

- - are out there doing/experiencing

and

- - you are learning from those mistakes

Re those who say you 'can't' - fuck'em.

Rod Peno
rod@nastything.com cccosaka@osk.threewebnet.or.jp

possibilities suit me fine as a destination
Kevin Kelly [ out of control ]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:26:08 -0500
From: Michael Piastro <mpp6@cornell.edu>
Subject: gettin paid . . .

Background:
A friend and I form a web design LLC, based on the facts that he has worked
for a high profile Manhattan firm, and I have done more limited work
myself. We would like to build our business so that by the time we graduate
Cornell, we will be able to support ourselves with it. We do a few smaller
pages and then . . .
A possible client with a 150 page marketing plan and a concept for an
incredibly involved web project comes to our attention. Client has moved
to Ithaca for "cheap yet qualified student labor." To give you an idea how
developed the project is, the potential client has received responses from
RFP's to the tune of $200K (which they simply can't come near to affording).
We have the technical/organizational capabilities to handle the project.
If succesful, it could be a huge boost to our brand, and possibly lead to
many other contracts.
The problem is that they want us to do it for basically $12 per hour, when
we usually get 3 times that amount or more for this kind of work (SQL
Server back end, ASP front end, production/integration and customization of
various VB apps and pre-existing software). We feel we are worth more than
this amount.
Weighing the possibility of tremendous exposure versus what he wants to pay
us leaves us in a quandary as to whether or not to accept the project. The
project will monopolize our development time from now until June (at
least). During this time we had hoped to make significantly more than the
$600 per week we'd make here by servicing various other smaller clients at
our full or closer to full rate.
Any suggestions from persons with experience in "startup price cutting" or
with ideas on how to assess the value of this project would be hugely
appreciated.
Thanx and sorry for the long de-lurk.

- --- Silent Mike
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:54:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: gettin paid . . .

if i could depend on $600 per week until june.. i would be a happy man.

considering here.. at my current (And now past employer) pays about
9.5$/hr. for asp/sql bases (which is why im leaving them).. i wouldnt feel
bad in taking such a project that could have lasting residual value to
your credit.

and big name is a big name, and a lot of people use references and past
work in hiring firms for projects.

if i had the ability, i would say pass them to me without a thought, think
about what that company could mean to you and your name, and then look at
the money as a side bonus.

just my jealous opinions talking ;)

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Michael Piastro wrote:

> Background:
> A friend and I form a web design LLC, based on the facts that he has worked
> for a high profile Manhattan firm, and I have done more limited work
> myself. We would like to build our business so that by the time we graduate
> Cornell, we will be able to support ourselves with it. We do a few smaller
> pages and then . . .
> A possible client with a 150 page marketing plan and a concept for an
> incredibly involved web project comes to our attention. Client has moved
> to Ithaca for "cheap yet qualified student labor." To give you an idea how
> developed the project is, the potential client has received responses from
> RFP's to the tune of $200K (which they simply can't come near to affording).
> We have the technical/organizational capabilities to handle the project.
> If succesful, it could be a huge boost to our brand, and possibly lead to
> many other contracts.
> The problem is that they want us to do it for basically $12 per hour, when
> we usually get 3 times that amount or more for this kind of work (SQL
> Server back end, ASP front end, production/integration and customization of
> various VB apps and pre-existing software). We feel we are worth more than
> this amount.
> Weighing the possibility of tremendous exposure versus what he wants to pay
> us leaves us in a quandary as to whether or not to accept the project. The
> project will monopolize our development time from now until June (at
> least). During this time we had hoped to make significantly more than the
> $600 per week we'd make here by servicing various other smaller clients at
> our full or closer to full rate.
> Any suggestions from persons with experience in "startup price cutting" or
> with ideas on how to assess the value of this project would be hugely
> appreciated.
> Thanx and sorry for the long de-lurk.
>
> --- Silent Mike
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:19:59 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Miguel_Fuentes_Garc=EDa?= <mfuentes@seresco.es>
Subject: Re: Stability of flash + banner advertising?

I did a banner using flash for a cable company. They don't
use it properly: the code of html is incorrect and they use it
in a different place than I designed for. It works for the first time,
but, when using the site, there's a lot of movement around.

But they thought "the banner is cool, we can use it in any place... ".

http://www.telecable.es/index2.html
(I was exploring and learning Flash, it's my second or third flash,
so don't compare me with gabo. 8-)

(Sorry about my poor english)

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End of babble-digest V1 #182
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