Babble v1 171

babble-digest Friday, January 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 171

In this issue:
Re: Frame Problems
gabocorp...the voices trail on
price of the web
Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)
Re: Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)
RE: Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)
TECH Re: Flash Support (long)
Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
Re: discussing sites w/o permission of author
RE: Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)
Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
Discussing sites, apologies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:57:59 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Re: Frame Problems

>I am having a problem with links and frames. I have a frameset consisting
>of three frames. I would like the links in the cheesy button bar in one
>frame to open what it is linking to in another frame while the image of
>the cheesy button bar updates to illustrate which link has been chosen. I
>was hoping this could be done without disturbing the third frame or by
>opening a new frameset(the solution I'm living with at the moment).
>
>In other words, when you click on the "What's New" button, I would like
>the button to "light up" and for the What's New page to load in another
>frame. The title frame would remain unchanged and thus would allow me to
>"pre-load" a few images out of sight on this page while the visitor is
>distracted by all the pretty links and shiny objects.

I have just finished a frameset that does that using using JavaScript. This
does limit who can see the image change, but in my case it does not make
any difference...

To do it you need to use the image.src property as used for rollovers.

Hope this helps,

Chris

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 03:22:06 PST
From: "suraj hattangadi" <surajh@hotmail.com>
Subject: gabocorp...the voices trail on

Dear everybody,
It's nice to see how all of us can get so sparked up on something a
fellow designer creates.
"gabocorp.com"
haven't heard or seen much else since it sprang up on my email.

fact is, much judgement can be passed on this piece of work. thing is,
it's a piece of work that reflects Alberto's talent. Conceptually
perhaps there is much to be debated on the very existence of a concept.
Visually, it's a treat. Whatever be our judgements, gabocorp.com still
remains to be a very prominenet and well executed showcase of the
capabilities of flash.

At this juncture, i might like to add that there is this general feeling
in my organisation ( http://www.dbsinternet.com )., that plug ins don't
really "work" out on the Web experience. As in, many visitors might just
not be inclined to download a plug in just to be treated to a couple of
floating gifs and outer galactic sounds. Besides, there is also the plug
in download time to consider.

This could well be a debate that could jam our bandwidths until
eternia. Anyways, great plug ins like the gabocorp.com are certainly
worth debating. As for Alberto, all i can say is...bravo!!

until we connect again,

suraj

>From babble-owner@scooby.verso.com Thu Jan 29 21:53:04 1998
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>Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:47:32 -0600
>To: babble@highfive.com
>From: Greg Lindsay <greg@babelfish.net>
>Subject: Re: Does Mr. Mendoza know?
>Sender: owner-babble@highfive.com
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: Greg Lindsay <greg@babelfish.net>
>
>>With all the hoopla centering Alberto Gabriel Mendoza, who is
>>unquestionably talented as seen in gabocorp.com, does he even know his
work
>>has generated much discussion? Personally, I'd like to hear Alberto's
view
>>point of Gabbo and his Flash philosophy. Perhaps, we can learn
something,
>>even those who are immune to different tricks of the trade.
>>
>
>We may hear his comments soon, albeit indirectly. My editor at the
Netly
>News authorized me to interview him for a profile in Netly. This is, of
>course, contingent on the help of fellow Babblers willing to go on the
>record with their comments about the quality (or lack thereof) of his
site.
>I hope some of you are willing to talk about your reactions to the
site.
>Thanks,
>
>Greg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>greg lindsay
>contributing editor
>The Netly News
>(217) 332 4100
>greg@babelfish.net
>www.netlynews.com
>
>--------------------
>"Just because something is
>legible doesn't mean it
>communicates; it could be
>communicating completely
>the wrong thing."
>
> -- d. carson
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:54:44 +0100
From: Pascale Camus-Walter <camwal@cybercable.tm.fr>
Subject: price of the web

>From: Jeffrey Miller <jeff@l9.com>
>Subject: Market Driven Web? (Was: [Re: Gabbo agonistes] )
>
>Jeffrey Zeldman wrote:
>
>Now comes a crisis in radio - how do we pay for these things? What was
>the point? Where do we find programming to fill 24/7? Slowly, the wheat
>was separated from the chaff, as those who couldn't afford to transmit
>radio dropped out of site.

The price of transmission for radio was never low, and the bandwith
is limited. But, for the web, its incredible cheap to display texts,
graphics, sounds, etc...
I think this is the first time that a quality media is open to the public.
So, i see it reverse: media that were settled by advertising have now a
space were something independant from commercials is possible.
In traditional medias, advertising was supposed to have a great
impact on the audience,(this was sometimes also true magic belief) , but
it seems that people on the web are now quite resistant to advertising and
have for the first time extended possibilities to escape to the noise of
advertising.
If it's proved that the investments in advertising on the web are
not very profitable, there could be a decrease in these investments, a
change in the conception, etc....

Content is very strong on the net, and people will search in priority for
knowledge, information, and perhaps less for brainwash :-)

Il est plus facile de rayer l'obscurité que la lumière. R. Juarroz
+---------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
artKfee: http://www.cybercable.fr/~camwal/
The Waltercolour studio: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/5806/
apastras: http://web.superb.net/apastras
+------------------------------------+----------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:15:08 +1100 (EST)
From: Richard McLean <vorple@n130.aone.net.au>
Subject: Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)

> At this juncture, i might like to add that there is this general feeling
> in my organisation ( http://www.dbsinternet.com )., that plug ins don't
> really "work" out on the Web experience. As in, many visitors might just
> not be inclined to download a plug in just to be treated to a couple of
> floating gifs and outer galactic sounds. Besides, there is also the plug
> in download time to consider.

How long do you guys think it's going to take to have native Flash support
in the major browsers, or have the plug-in installed with the default
package ?

Should I (or we really) be trying to learn Flash now, so it's not a scamble
when it happens ?

kind regards,
Richard McLean

Life would be so much easier with a soundtrack.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:14:00 +0100 (MET)
From: cvodb <vonb@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)

> How long do you guys think it's going to take to have native Flash support
> in the major browsers, or have the plug-in installed with the default
> package ?

http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/index3.html

guess that sort of answers the question.

Caroline

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:13:07 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)

On Friday, January 30, 1998 7:14 AM, cvodb [SMTP:vonb@xs4all.nl] wrote:
> > How long do you guys think it's going to take to have native Flash
> > support
> > in the major browsers, or have the plug-in installed with the default
> > package ?
>
> http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/index3.html
>
> guess that sort of answers the question.
>
> Caroline
>
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I'll admit I haven't tried it lately, but when I did a few months ago,
the Java player was painfully slow, even over a clean 128K pipe.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Designer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:26:44 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: TECH Re: Flash Support (long)

Richard McLean wrote:

> How long do you guys think it's going to take to have native Flash support
> in the major browsers, or have the plug-in installed with the default
> package ?
>
> Should I (or we really) be trying to learn Flash now, so it's not a scamble
> when it happens ?

I don't see the complaints about downloading Flash being legitimate. Its a
130K plugin. Acrobat Reader is what 3 megabytes? On the Windows platform it
supposedly auto installs. It is also bundled with Real Audio/Video so if you
have that you have Flash (if you have downloaded either the last few months).

My company is already using it on a limited basis for our vendors. Right now
it is primarily for vendor promos (eventually we aim to replace all our
animated GIFs with it), but I do know it is also being used for animation of
how the ear works (our company manufactures and repairs hearing aids). 5
animations take 120K. Since Flash streams its no big deal as the animation
starts it downloads in the background with little or no hesitation on the
viewers part.

I suspect it will be part of a Standard browser download in the next release
of the big browsers (although I fear Netscape will really strip the free
Netscape 5 since it will give away it source code). Macromedia should really
push for it and so should developers.

To be honest, I think this technology should be implemented as fast as
possible and in as many content sites (as long as it is appropriate) as
possible. Imagine using Mapquest and instead of making round trips to the
server to zoom in/ zoom out of maps you just use Flash's zoom in/out on the
same (smaller sized) map.

The only real complaint I see about Flash is it is a plugin. I'll go back to
being a snob here again, but if your audience does not want to benefit from a
plugin with as much possibility as Flash with such a small overhead for
installation then it is their loss. Sure, you cannot design a site exclusively
for it (yet) but I say develop for it now and encourage your audience to
install it as soon as possible. You can always use a plugin detector to direct
users without it to alternate pages. I believe the time they save by
downloading the plugin will be made up in no time at all.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:33:25 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

>Has any one lately been to the Jodi site?
>
> http://www.jodi.org
>
>No plug-ins are required, but enable your JavaScript.
>Stay several minutes and watch the changes.
>
> warning, Warning, WARNING:
>
>If you are epileptic, and flashing lights trigger seizures,
>
> DO NOT GO TO THIS SITE!!!

That's for sure, epileptics, stay away from this site.

Now, on a lighter note, can anyone tell me what the hell the POINT of that
website is? I must've missed something. If people have a problem with
Gabocorp's site, they oughta compare it to THAT garbageheap. Of course, it
could have some point that I'm missing, so I shouldn't criticize. And yes,
I waited all the way.
____________________
PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
a limited liability company
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:59:56 -0500
From: Dreadscott Internet Productions <java@dreadscott.com>
Subject: Re: discussing sites w/o permission of author

At 11:10 PM 1/29/98 -0600, Darrel Austin wrote:
>Did the creator of the Gabocorp site ask ANY of us to critique his work in
>a public forum?

Ah, but does anyone who displays his/her work in a public forum (the Net),
expect that they _will not_ be the subject of discussion? More likely, that
person *hopes* their work will be seen and discussed.
...Though Christopher reminds us it's against Babble list etiquette.

Lisa G.

- -,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-
Dreadscott Internet Productions
Lisa Gade
java@dreadscott.com
http://www.dreadscott.com
- -,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-
"Art is the lie that reveals the truth."-Picasso

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:55:34 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: RE: Flash Support (was Re: gabocorp...)

Richard wrote:
>> > How long do you guys think it's going to take to have native Flash
>> > support
>> > in the major browsers, or have the plug-in installed with the default
>> > package ?

to which Caroline posted:
>> http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/index3.html
>>
>> guess that sort of answers the question.
>>
>> Caroline

And I'm going with Chris on this one ..
> I'll admit I haven't tried it lately, but when I did a few months ago,
>the Java player was painfully slow, even over a clean 128K pipe.

Not only is the Java player slow, but it's as resource hungry as ever -
especially on Netscape (though things may change on that, with the latest
developments) and the mac guys here groan audibly whenever they hit some
site with Java.

The other gripe with the Java player is that the images are not as good - I
know they're supposed to be vector, and you can't go wrong with that - and
yes, I don't understand the problems, but there are.

I'm not the greatest of Java fans - too many clients want some "java" on
their site, for absolutely no reason - so all the effort on reducing
image/code file sizes is in effect wasted by such things. Net-it now being
perhaps the only exception.

Flash is here to stay - having swallowed my crystal ball, and with the gift
of Proteus, I'd be willing to bet that Flash will soon be bundled with
browsers. But that doesn't deal with the millions of users out there that
don't have the plug-in.

However, Macromedia's birthday present - Smart Shockwave - for an easier
download, may well be the way forward .. as long as it doesn't require
closing the browser window, which I don't think it does.

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
- -----------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:11:51 -0500
From: leslie harpold <leslie@fearless.net>
Subject: Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

>Now, on a lighter note, can anyone tell me what the hell the POINT of that
>website is? I must've missed something. If people have a problem with
>Gabocorp's site, they oughta compare it to THAT garbageheap. Of course, it
>could have some point that I'm missing, so I shouldn't criticize. And yes,
>I waited all the way.

Well, it may be hard to recognize any value in a web site that doesn't sell
anything (and yes my tongue is in my cheek) there is such a thing as art
for art's sake.

the "point" of jodi.org is to push the limits of the medium and the viewing
experience. to apply the principals of fine art to generate medium specific
content. it certainly set off some button in you, no? Personally, I love
it, and think their work is consistently brilliant. the "point" is to
assault you visually, to change the way you perceive the medium.

the "point" of that "garbageheap" is art. but you don't have to like it
and you don't have to get it. what makes me sad is that people have lost
the ability to recognize things that were not made for the advancement of
some marketing agenda.

and i make things that advance people's marketing agendas, trust me. but
if there's a day i lose the ability to recognize the difference, please
take me out back and shoot me.

leslie harpold
http://smug.com http://www.hoopla.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"the answer is there, but 'there' is not a
fixed position" - Fugazi
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:45:26 -0600
From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
Subject: Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

At 10:11 AM 1/30/98 -0500, leslie harpold wrote:
>
>>Now, on a lighter note, can anyone tell me what the hell the POINT of that
>>website is? I must've missed something. If people have a problem with
>>Gabocorp's site, they oughta compare it to THAT garbageheap. Of course, it
>>could have some point that I'm missing, so I shouldn't criticize. And yes,
>>I waited all the way.
>
>Well, it may be hard to recognize any value in a web site that doesn't sell
>anything (and yes my tongue is in my cheek) there is such a thing as art
>for art's sake.

::snip::

>it certainly set off some button in you, no? Personally, I love
>it, and think their work is consistently brilliant. the "point" is to
>assault you visually, to change the way you perceive the medium.
>
>the "point" of that "garbageheap" is art. but you don't have to like it
>and you don't have to get it. what makes me sad is that people have lost
>the ability to recognize things that were not made for the advancement of
>some marketing agenda.
>
>and i make things that advance people's marketing agendas, trust me. but
>if there's a day i lose the ability to recognize the difference, please
>take me out back and shoot me.

I don't think you should be so quick to assume that I don't know the
difference between marketing and art. I also don't think you should be so
smug as to assume that since I don't "get it," that I've lost the ability
to tell the difference. One person can present a steaming pile of dog crap
to a group of people as being art, and some will agree. Most would
disagree. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who's pulling what over who's eyes?

Art is in the eye of the beholder, and it looked like a garbageheap to me,
so I called it as such. Apparantly, I'm not as erudite in my artistic
tastes as some others. Cheers!
____________________
PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
a limited liability company
PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
<mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
competitive business advantages through creative technology
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:48:38 GMT
From: Jason Holland <jason@head-newmedia.com>
Subject: Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

>Now, on a lighter note, can anyone tell me what the hell the POINT of that
>website is? I must've missed something.

Yes I think you must be.

>If people have a problem with
>Gabocorp's site, they oughta compare it to THAT garbageheap. Of course, it
>could have some point that I'm missing, so I shouldn't criticize. And yes,
>I waited all the way.

Why must the site have a point? Surely this whole site is devoted to the
unusual experience of the environment that's been created, and exploration
of the unique graphical approach. I've always thought that
http://www.jodi.org was a benchmark in taking a different slant to a web
page experience. It's not trying to sell, inform or persuade you. Just
tempt further. You either love or hate it, but you must agree that there's
only a few sites like this that exist, which when combined with this level
of thought, makes it something special in an internet filled with
"garbageheaps".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:04:31 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

>the "point" of jodi.org is to push the limits of the medium and the viewing
>experience. to apply the principals of fine art to generate medium specific
>content. it certainly set off some button in you, no? Personally, I love
>it, and think their work is consistently brilliant. the "point" is to
>assault you visually, to change the way you perceive the medium.

Well, I love "art" sites - or sites that use the web in a new way to create
art. Jodi.org has always been referred to by top designers as a great
place for inspiration. I first visited the site 1.5 years ago and have
dropped in from time to time to see if anything new "popped up."

My opinion is that, even though it may be an "art" site, it's still a
garbageheap. That may single me out as a non-lover of abstract art, but
it's truly pointless, dimensionless, and doesn't "take" me anywhere,
emotionally _or_ intellectually.
While I don't feel the need to understand a site to love the concept,
Jodi.org just isn't happening. I know I'm going against the grain of some
of the best web designers out there, and I'm perfectly willing to accept
that I might be the dud, but man - that site _is_ a garbageheap.

Ryan Ferguson
signacct@signweb.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:55:54 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Discussing sites, apologies

Christopher Schmitt:
"One of the Babble list rules is that a web site will not and should
not be critiqued unless a representative of that site asked for the
Babble members' input -or- that site was reviewed in H5.

If by 'critique' Christopher means 'unnecessarily trash' then this
rule makes sense to me; if not, then I'm not so sure. In any case, I
would like to point out that people have their work critiqued in
public forums all the time. Scientists via peer review, musicians and
writers in newspaper reviews, presidents in various forms of
journalism, web sites are discussed on other web sites. Such
critiquing is not always done at the request of the author. Why should
this list be any different? If there is a good reason, then I will
certainly comply. But just because a designer isn't here to join in
the discussion doesn't seem like a good enough reason to keep people
from commenting on a site. That doesn't mean you can hurl ad hominen
attacks on the designer, however, or unnecessarily trash a site. Your
comments should only include your opinion on the *site* being
discussed. If someone continually violates these rules, they can
always be removed from the list.

Perhaps the above rule is meant to keep the list from being flooded by
an inordinate amount of web site reviews. If so, then I suggest again,
as I did yesterday, that perhaps we could occasionaly have "guest"
designers present a site of their's, explaining why they did the
things they did, how they did certain things, why they didn't do other
things, etc. The list could then discuss, offer opinions, etc. This
would give us all food for design thought and could even help the
designers of sites under discussion.

But let me reiterate: If the rule stated by Christopher is still an
official rule, then I will certainly comply with it.

Some apologies:

In my initial comments on the Gabocorp site, I referred to a quote
from the site as "obnoxious drivel". At that point, I assumed that
this quote was something dreamed up by a marketing team of a decent
sized company. Now that it seems that Gabocorp is actually a small
company (or just one person, Alberto) I don't take offense at the
quote. The reason is because I now realize that the quote about "stiff
and boring" sites was just the opinion of one person, and since it is
an honest opinion, I have no problem with it. I apologize to Alberto
and anyone else who was offended by my remark.

Another apology: I quoted a private post sent to me by Christopher
Daniels on the list. I thought that Christopher's post was sent to
Babble. This quote was mixed in with some other quotes that I was
commenting on that were not sent to me privately. I neglected to check
if Christopher's post was a public one. I apologize for this
oversight.

-Chris Mabry
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------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #171
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