Babble v1 170

babble-digest Friday, January 30 1998 Volume 01 : Number 170

In this issue:
RE: Babylon and On 5
Web Design Process
Does Mr. Mendoza know?
Re: Does Mr. Mendoza know?
Re: Does Mr. Mendoza know?
QUASI-ADMIN: Site Critiques (was RE: Does Mr. Mendoza know?)
CSS, IE4 Mac Problem
NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org
JavaScript books/resources...
font identification, please...
Browserola - http://www.bizdomain.com/browserola/
[none]
Re: Browserola - http://www.bizdomain.com/browserola/
Re: font identification, please...
Re: Does Mr. Mendoza know?
Re: gabocorp - yawn...
Frame Problems
RE: GaboCorp & TV on Web

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:07:16 -0600
From: Jeremy Marx <jmarx@sparknet.net>
Subject: RE: Babylon and On 5

At 12:57 PM 1/29/98 , Brian Alvey wrote:
>
>>Someone wrote:
>>
>> > "right now this site reminds me of that
>> > babylon 5 show. it looks really good, it
>> > sounds really good, but the script sucks."
>> >
>> >To which Tari replies:
>> >
>> > LAY OFF BABYLON 5!!!
>>
>>To which J e r e m y M a r x adds:
>>
>> But isn't this off-topic or something? :-/
>
> What could be more on-topic than comparing Babylon 5 to High Five using
High Five's own Babble on
> Babble@HighFive.com?

Say that five times fast....

J e r e m y M a r x
Webmaster
SparkNET Interactive
<http://www.sparknet-interactive.com/>http://www.sparknet-interactive.com/
ICQ: <http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5719871>http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5719871

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:00:48 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: Web Design Process

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From: TheGilster <TheGilster@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1617a294.34cbb230@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:44:08 EST
To: babble@highfive.com
Subject: Web Site Methods
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Dear Babblers,
I have just undergone a new business plan for my company and I would like
to change my method of web site production. Beside the Verso method, I would
appreciate hearing about your methods of site production or you could provide
me a link to your company's website that describes your process.
Thanks again,
Gil Kruger
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:20:14 -0800
From: jeremy <jeremy@superlink.net>
Subject: Does Mr. Mendoza know?

With all the hoopla centering Alberto Gabriel Mendoza, who is
unquestionably talented as seen in gabocorp.com, does he even know his work
has generated much discussion? Personally, I'd like to hear Alberto's view
point of Gabbo and his Flash philosophy. Perhaps, we can learn something,
even those who are immune to different tricks of the trade.

- -jer

jeremy@superlink.net
ninezero8________ http://mars.superlink.net/jeremy
urbantales
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:00:44 -0500
From: Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com
Subject: Re: Does Mr. Mendoza know?

Jeremy:
"Personally, I'd like to hear Alberto's view point of Gabbo and his
Flash philosophy. Perhaps, we can learn something, even those who are
immune to different tricks of the trade."

I second this notion. I'm not immune to learning new things. In fact,
as a way of generating more discussion on this list about design
issues and the design of specific sites, perhaps we could occasionaly
have "guest" designers present a site of their's, explaining why they
did the things they did, how they did certain things, why they didn't
do other things, etc. The list could then discuss, offer opinions,
etc.

-chris
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:27:37 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: Does Mr. Mendoza know?

I have already contacted him and he said he would drop by to read what
everyone has been thinking...

jorge
- -----Original Message-----
From: jeremy <jeremy@superlink.net>
To: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>
Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 1:59 PM
Subject: Does Mr. Mendoza know?

>With all the hoopla centering Alberto Gabriel Mendoza, who is
>unquestionably talented as seen in gabocorp.com, does he even know his work
>has generated much discussion? Personally, I'd like to hear Alberto's view
>point of Gabbo and his Flash philosophy. Perhaps, we can learn something,
>even those who are immune to different tricks of the trade.
>
>-jer
>
>jeremy@superlink.net
>ninezero8________ http://mars.superlink.net/jeremy
> urbantales
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:21:21 -0800
From: Christopher <chris@christopher.org>
Subject: QUASI-ADMIN: Site Critiques (was RE: Does Mr. Mendoza know?)

On Thursday, January 29, 1998 4:20 PM, jeremy wrote:
> With all the hoopla centering Alberto Gabriel Mendoza, who is
> unquestionably talented as seen in gabocorp.com, does he even know his
work
> has generated much discussion? Personally, I'd like to hear Alberto's
view
> point of Gabbo and his Flash philosophy. Perhaps, we can learn something,
> even those who are immune to different tricks of the trade.

One of the Babble list rules is that a web site will not and should not be
critiqued unless a representative of that site asked for the Babble
members' input -or- that site was reviewed in H5.

Not talking ill of someone's work who is neither present nor didn't ask for
input is also just a general courtesy. E.g., refraining from talking behind
someone's back.

Regards,
Christopher Schmitt
ex-high five guru
new media designer
http://www.christopher.org/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:18:26 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: CSS, IE4 Mac Problem

I seem to have come across a bug/problem in IE4 for the Mac. If you
redefine the <p> tag using CSS, and set the line-height property, IE4
removes the bottom and top margins that normally apply to the <p> tag. I
have used the following style definition:

p {
font-size: 12px;
line-height: 16px;
margin-left:24px }

This does not cause problems on NN4 Mac/W95, IE3 Mac, IE4 W95. You can add
a margin-top or margin bottom tag, but this makes the margins larger in the
other browsers.

This is one of many recent problems I have had with IE4 Mac. We currently
have a site sample which works well in everything except IE4 Mac, which
does wierd things. Anyway this style problem is my major concern as it has
a major effect on the readability of the site.

Any ideas suggestions are most welcome.

Thanks,
Chris

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:27:59 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: NOT 4 epileptics - http://www.jodi.org

Has any one lately been to the Jodi site?

http://www.jodi.org

No plug-ins are required, but enable your JavaScript.
Stay several minutes and watch the changes.

warning, Warning, WARNING:

If you are epileptic, and flashing lights trigger seizures,

DO NOT GO TO THIS SITE!!!

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:05:38 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: JavaScript books/resources...

Macmillan Computer Publishing has a free resource called 'Personal
Bookshelf' located at

http://www.mcp.com/personal/

If you go there and register with your email address, they will let you
access and read books from their catalog online, including JavaScript
books. Specifically, 'Special Edition Using JavaScript', 'Special
Edition Using JScript', 'JavaScript Manual of Style', 'Teach Yourself
JavaScript in a Week', 'Laura Lemay's Web Workshop: JavaScript', 'Teach
Yourself JavaScript 1.1 in a Week, Second Edition'.

Some of those aforementioned titles might be a bit more complicated than
what you want so here are the titles of some books on JavaScript. These
books are written a bit more for designers than progammers. By this, I
mean that they take a slightly different approach in presenting the
materials:

Designing with JavaScript
by Nick Heinle
from O'Reilly (Songline)/isbn 0-201-68814-X
C$42.95/U$29.95
info: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/designjs/

JavaScript for the World Wide Web, 2nd Edition (NOT the 1st
edition!)
by Tom Negrino and Dori Smith
from Peachpit/isbn 0-201-69648-7
C$24.95/U$17.95
book URL: http://www.chalcedony.com/javascript/
info: http://www.peachpit.com/peachpit/titles/catalog/69648.html

ABCs of JavaScript
by Lee Purcell and Mary Jane Mara
from Sybex/isbn 0-7821-1937-9
C$41.95/U$29.97

There is also another very excellent book, but it is a bit harder to
understand if one is a beginner and not used to thinking a bit like a
scripter or programmer:

JavaScript: The Definitive Guide, 2nd edition
by David Flanagan
from O'Reilly/isbn 1-5692-234-4
C$46.95/U$32.95

I have recently updated my JavaScript section of my site, the Web
Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG). That includes information,
tutorials, URLs and book reviews. In the next week or so, I will be
posting a huge library of JavaScript scripts for the downloading.

JavaScript books section of TheWPRG
http://members.aol.com/thewprg/htm/bksweb/jvscptbk.htm

JavaScript information section of TheWPRG
http://members.aol.com/thewprg/htm/jvscript.htm

Web Publishing Resource Guide
http://members.aol.com/thewprg/

Top sites to get free scripts for customizing include:

JavaScript Tip of the Week
http://webreference.com/javascript/

JavaGoodies JavaScript Repository
http://www.htmlgoodies.com/javagoodies/

The JavaScript Source
http://javascriptsource.com/main.html

24 Hour Javacripts
http://www.javascripts.com/

Cut-N-Paste JavaScripts
http://www.infohiway.com/javascript/indexf.htm

Developer.com (formerly Gamelan???)
http://www.developer.com/directories/pages/dir.javascript.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:23:00 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: font identification, please...

I was wondering if someone could tell me what font was used to make the
buttons on the site, 'Matt's Script Archives'

http://www.worldwidemart.com/scripts/

Specifically, the coloured buttons, such as 'guestbook', formmail',
'textcounter', ect...

Thanks a lot.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:38:43 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Browserola - http://www.bizdomain.com/browserola/

Has anyone heard of, or tried Browserola? I just found out about it on
another list I am on and I am going to try it out this weekend but I am
curious about people's experience with it.

http://www.bizdomain.com/browserola/

Apparently Browserola "is the world's first and only "browser emulator";
It's a Windows program that enables Web authors to see how their pages
look in a variety of Web browsers without having to have those browsers
installed. It requires Windows 95 or NT 4.0 and a frames-capable
browser."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:10:51 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: [none]

Did the creator of the Gabocorp site ask ANY of us to critique his work in
a public forum?

- -Darrel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:16:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Porter Glendinning <ag@cen.com>
Subject: Re: Browserola - http://www.bizdomain.com/browserola/

On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Tari Akpodiete wrote:
> Has anyone heard of, or tried Browserola

It's an interesting tool to play with, but I've never gotten any real
mileage out of it. It only simulates things like table support, and
handling of background images (yes, it goes back that far), etc. It has no
way of testing things like JavaScript support, and I can't remember, but I
don't think it can show you Mac/PC differences.

I would recommend taking a look at it for yourself, but for me, I've
always found it easier to just keep old browsers on hand for testing.

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/
- ---------------------------------------------------
Porter's Workshop - Home of Porter's Babble Demos
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:44:32 +0100
From: cvodb <vonb@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: font identification, please...

>Specifically, the coloured buttons, such as 'guestbook', formmail',
>'textcounter', ect...

That's the shareware font called 'Anna'.

Caroline
'Through it all she offers me protection
a lot of love and affection whether I'm right or wrong
I'm loving angels instead' - Robbie Williams
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:47:32 -0600
From: Greg Lindsay <greg@babelfish.net>
Subject: Re: Does Mr. Mendoza know?

We may hear his comments soon, albeit indirectly. My editor at the Netly
News authorized me to interview him for a profile in Netly. This is, of
course, contingent on the help of fellow Babblers willing to go on the
record with their comments about the quality (or lack thereof) of his site.
I hope some of you are willing to talk about your reactions to the site.
Thanks,

Greg

greg lindsay
contributing editor
The Netly News
(217) 332 4100
greg@babelfish.net
www.netlynews.com

- --------------------
"Just because something is
legible doesn't mean it
communicates; it could be
communicating completely
the wrong thing."

-- d. carson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:05:45 +1100
From: daniel keating <keeto@netinfo.com.au>
Subject: Re: gabocorp - yawn...

For all the hoopla about this website I found it to be what everyone,
even its detractors, claimed it was not.

It was boring, yesterdays news.

Sure, it had transitions, but so does RGA's much older site at
<http://www.rga.com> (and it downloads faster! doesn't require a plugin,
has a clever random layout, status bar etc...)

Sure it had rollovers on the navigation buttons, but hang on, hasn't a
large portion of this list been donated to how to achieve this?

It had a 3d look set of graphics with bad typography so IMHO the design
was tired, cliche, and without sophisitcation or even targeting towards
potential customers.

It had a soundtrack which like enya was, to quote South park, "boring
yet eerily hipnotic". Lucky I took off my headphones.

All in all I found it was a blast from the multimedia past reminding me
of CD-Rom work from a few years ago. This is not to say that it wasn't
unusual for the web to see this sort of thing but I would expect that
as designers we keep abreast of developments in all related fields so
that we can avoid making the past mistakes and keep producing stuff no
one has seen.

I would like to see some INTERACTION and no I don't mean rollovers I
mean allowing the user a bit more control over what they are doing. This
is the way of the future. Allowing the user instant feedback using
dynamic response much like games. User Interfaces that go beyond the
idea of point and click (not so hard to do). Multimedia is moving in
this direction why not the web? I saw an interface like this on
macomedias demonstration CD a last year. I know that with Java it is
easy enough to do this sort of thing and with low bandwith.

but perhaps this is beyond the capability of mere web designers

Prove me wrong, please?

If you don't I will.

daniel keating:)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 00:02:21 -0800
From: Rikterman <riktrman@direct.ca>
Subject: Frame Problems

I am having a problem with links and frames. I have a frameset consisting
of three frames. I would like the links in the cheesy button bar in one
frame to open what it is linking to in another frame while the image of
the cheesy button bar updates to illustrate which link has been chosen. I
was hoping this could be done without disturbing the third frame or by
opening a new frameset(the solution I'm living with at the moment).

In other words, when you click on the "What's New" button, I would like
the button to "light up" and for the What's New page to load in another
frame. The title frame would remain unchanged and thus would allow me to
"pre-load" a few images out of sight on this page while the visitor is
distracted by all the pretty links and shiny objects.

The strategy I thought I would use was to have the cheesy button bar page
with the illuminated "What's New" button automatically load the What's
New page in the bottom frame. I thought I could do this with a line such
as:

><META HTTP-EQUIV="Refresh" CONTENT="30; URL=whatsnew.html" target="bottom">

in the cheesy button bar frame, but apparently I have gone wrong
somewhere...terribly, terribly WRONG!!

Am I dreaming? Or can this trick be done? And if so how many browsers
will be able to view it?

Thanks for you time.
Rikterman.
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:06:19 -0800
From: "Thomas Paquet" <tpaquet@zone-x.com>
Subject: RE: GaboCorp & TV on Web

>> These are pages with no information content that waste a user's time and
tie
>> up bandwidth for nothing.
>> As designers, we should be getting away from this kind of stuff. Leave it
>> for TV commercials.
>
>see I told you.
>
>why should we get away from this kind of stuff?? should we make the web
>just like print. flat, maybe some pretty pictures here and there?
>simple navigation? information delivery, quick and efficient?

Interesting question?

How many people would enjoy being able to stop a commercial sometimes?
Maybe, see it again, rewind? fast forward?

Isn't this going to be our end result? Integration into a medium where WE
as the audience CONTROL what we see? What we want? Where we are going?

I don't necessarily think the designers will (in the large scale) dictate
what the PEOPLE get... or WANT...

Any thoughts?

tmp
z/x/d/e

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #170
****************************

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