unraveling julia

interview

unraveling julia, sexuality in a pluriethnic context

q
u
estions. . . . ian watts.

a
n
swers . . . . . julia s.

d
ate . . . . . . . june 6, 1997.

p
lace . . . . . . plush air-conditioned apartment facing macau peninsula and overlooking macau-taipa bridge (ex nobre de carvalho bridge) containing white couch and glass table with empty ash-tray.

j. - is this thing working?

i. - i think so. let me see if the red light is on. [laughs] it is. okay. i've been working under the general assumption that Macau can be considered a place of intercultural contact, on a micro and macro level. . . personal and societal, if i'm going to be vague about it. . . and that the macanese are individual agents, that is vectors of this contact.

j. - in english? [laughs]

i. - macanese are cultural mediators in every sense of the word, culturally, emotionally. . . sexually?

j. - it is good we are good friends. . . no.

i. - excuse me?

j. - i think you are wrong. macaneses, for me, and i only speak for me, are all of this thing. . . mediator? we are all, but applying such a role buys into the myth we [points to self] create about ourselves.

i. - what myth is that?

j. - that we embody all this things. we are portuguese, at least that is that is what we would like to think. but traditionally linked ourselves with Europe. it was the only way we could make a place for us in Macau. . . China. . . after all this centuries. macaneses are a special people because we are portuguese of the east. that is important for you to understand that. portuguese came to China a long time ago, started families and stayed. my family has been here for many generations, but can still call itself portuguese, you see. we never forgot. what you said about mediators we talked about that before and i know what you are trying to say: we macanese have a special role between the portuguese and the chinese in Macau. we are like the bridge. but that is too easy to say. we have not always been close emotionally to the chinese. things are changing. . .

i. - you say that the macanese have allied themselves with Portugal for some benefits and you allude to a possible change in ethnic alliances. are you hinting at the marriage strategies pointed out by j. p.-c. in dinamicas? of more macanese marrying chinese? could you comment on this? are macanese integrating themselves into the local chinese community?

j. - english please?

i. - you're joking, right?

j. - yes. by the way tdm had something on the radio about you at the conference. they were looking forward to your talk. it was about macanese? then i heard nothing about it. how did it go?

i. - okay, i suppose. i had some inconsistencies, and they called me on it. but, what can i say? about the last question, the interviewer asked me if the macanese are becoming more chinese. i declined to comment, although i think that sort of question is irrelevant, really, when talking about ethnicity, identity particularly. it is trying to break identity down into arbitrary elements and then quantifying them. thoughts?

j. - of course they are not. the chinese are becoming more western! joking. you make it sound like a game, like the macaneses, we, are plotting something. it is not that easy.

i. - just pointing out a pattern described by an anthropologist. . .

j. - really? i am only going to speak for me. i don't set out to fall in love with any certain type people or group. but, since i speak portuguese, cantonese and english, i am accessible to more people linguistically, maybe not romantically. i have portuguese friends and chinese friends and i can see me loving them. your next question is, i know, i can see you writing it: Ťwho are you attracted to?ť

i. - actually, i would've said Ťdrawnť, but you said it, not me.

j. - neither really.

i. - what about macanese?

j. - boys no, girls yes.

i. - what? excuse me, could you repeat that? i, i think i wasn't paying attention.

j. - i said i don't like macanese boys, but i do like macanese girls.

i. - um, do you want me to shut off the recorder? the light is still on. i think i will.

- click -

i. - thanks for the tea.

j. - no problem, my pleasure.

i. - where were we?

j. - i was saying that i like girls, the macanese kind.

i. - men, no?

j. - of course. only portuguese. some chinese. definitely not macanese. [smiles]

i. - now let me get this straight (no pun intended): you are attracted to physically, emotionally with macanese and chinese women, portuguese and chinese men, and not macanese, as a general rule. you didn't mention portuguese women in the equation.

j. - they are fine, too. but, you know, Macau has so many different groups of people that it is not right to make a catalogue of likes and dislikes, sexually. there are many different types of people i enjoy, for different things. and i am not going to generalize things.

i. - okay, that is a very valid answer, and i should interrupt and mention that i am not out to map your sexual identity. just interested in your comments on personal identity here in Macau. . . and i do not want to guide your words, nor the conversation.

j. - sexuality, this is part of my Ťidentityť.

i. - one part of the many different, although not altogether separable, parts that make up the whole of you?

j. - yes. i want you to know this thing. generalizing, of course, my parents' generation, they did not talk about anything. well not like this, and especially to outsiders. all this things stayed in the family, yes.

i. - i haven't really prepared any questions on this. i don't know quite where to begin asking.

j. - let's just talk then. i'm not doing anything this afternoon.

i. - i should get back later, e. and z. are having dinner. you know them right? e. d. she's off the. . .

j. - i've heard of her, yes. cape verdean. some macanese. yes, i've heard of her. very nice.

i. - could you comment on Ťfalling in loveť, please?

j. - Ťfalling in loveť? what can i say? i say i like boys and girls because i do not want to close my door, my self to other experiences. you know? today, tomorrow, anything can happen. because my heart is open, i can fall in love with a boy or a girl. it does not matter. and i feel no shame, or none of that catholic guilt shit. i am innocent, re-born. i live my life honestly, try not to hurt anyone. if they feel hurt by me, their problem, because i am without guilt. not i am to blame, i'm honest with them.

i. - are you in denial?

j. - no, of course not. . . funny, no. [smiles] like i am completely beyond the critiques. Macau is such a small place and after you live in a place for so long, the façades fall down. everyone knows everything about anyone else. we all know the families. that's important, families, not genealogy, no: it is about who you are with. not blood, but family. family, you know?

i. - yes.

j. - sure we know all about this and that, so we pretend to hide things.

i. - like issues about sexuality, for instance?

j. - some things are sacred. for me, only close friends know. everyone have problems, everyone has, you said Ťsexual hangť. . .

i. - Ťhangupsť.

j. - yes, Ťhangupsť. but everyone walks confused about themselves. i know men who have wife and children and on weekends go and visit Hong Kong just for have sex with boys. if you talk to them, they say that they love their wife and children, but inside they are confused, that they do not know what or why they are doing. some would say that they are gay, but they do not call themselves gay. just confused. everyone has sexual problems, and to not see that is not healthy. i am meaning to say that in Macau we pretend not to see all this, but we do and do not talk. it is private. so you wonder, why is she telling me all this?

i. - in a word, yes. [laughs]

j. - because you are a friend, and because we are similar, i think.

i. - okay. i would like to get back to the Ťno shameť you had mentioned previously as well as your negation of catholicism. to me, that sounds potentially buddhist. i understand that many gays look toward buddhism as a faith, especially that which is practiced in Thailand, since it has been traditionally very embracing and without sanctions against homosexual behavior. are you indicating this faith in your words? i suppose i am asking how you became innocent.

j. - [laughs] i think that you analyze things too much, complicate, too. no, i am not buddhist, but i am not catholic neither. if we talk about faith, i believe in something, but what that is, i do not know. i do not think my sexuality is a part of this belief. maybe. like i said, i like to be free. . . if that means i am a buddhist, if you want to label me, then i am buddhist. if you say that is something else, that is your opinion. but asking me, no. . . i became innocent after many years of living. i did not wake up one day and say that, i just realized it. there is no recipe for happiness, it comes with maturity and acceptance of things.

i. - another topic, related on a personal level, is that of no shame. if you feel no shame for who you are, then why does your family not know?

j. - the opportunity has never arisen. it is like our talk. i do not go out and start talking to the chinese washerwoman about all my stuff. i am also not telling you everything, too. you might ask and the answers will come. if you no ask, the answers are not there in the air, in me, yes, but out, no. right now i am established and happy with my life and do not care what they think, but unlike you americans, we macanese do not wear our sex on our sleeve, we have discretion.

i. - i could argue with you on that point.

j. - argue away. [laughs]

i. - . . .

j. - it is very flexible to be me, facil. if i say want to sleep with a girl tonight, i could. it is that easy. and the next day i feel in love with a boy, i do. life is unexpected. never what we plan, that is why i keep my heart open. you eyebrows speak again. it is not just about sex, about making love, it is feeling another person with you, it is about loving with the entire body. you see? we are all sexual creatures, we can not break apart love and sex since it is one in the same.

i. - i would like to get back to your preferences for a moment, that really threw me for a loop. you have a definite preference for portuguese males and macanese women. i think that deserves some comment.

j. - easy, i recently have a good experience with a portuguese boy, with a macanese boy, no.

i. - and chinese? [smiles]

j. - personally, i do not like chinese boys as a rule.

i. - why?

j. - personal taste, i guess.

i. - ah, but there are always patterns to be followed, preferences to be explored. actions to analyze, deconstruct. . . i'm kidding, but it had to be said. [smiles] but you do like chinese women?

j. - definitely. you have a chinese for a wife, no?

i. - yes. . . why are you looking at me like that?

j. - just because.

i. - . . . okay, you know what i am seeing in my mind's eye, don't you? several doors, men and women standing at each one. which one to you go to?

j. - the true test? [laughs]

i. - in a matter of speaking, yes.

j. - i would wait for who to come to me. take a look, if i like, i go. if no, no.

i. - good answer. i would do the same. very discerning?

j. - yes.

i. - let's leave gender out of the discussion, since, what it appears as though what you are basically telling me is that it is all case by case; but, my question is, what would make you most fulfilled, happy? relationship-wise?

j. - being with both a woman and a man. but we would have to be good friends, independent and loving. . . mature. . .

i. - now, this is difficult for me to ask, without sounding as though i have not been listening to a word of what you are saying, but, as a general rule, in Macau, what group of people have you been finding yourself falling in love with, having relationships, etc., on personal/whathaveyou level? i am not asking about attraction, since attraction and actual fulfillment of desire are two very different concepts.

j. - europeans and macanese. i don't know why. maybe i am facing the old pattern that our parents reached. i know many several nice, wonderful educated chinese. it is a question of acculturation and maybe modernity. if they accept me, for who i am, then it is good. i tend to fall in love with people who have similar sort of cultural background like me. . .

i. - i feel as though you would like to say something more.

j. - it is difficult, though. relationship. i am reaching age when people are starting to wonder if i am going to marry.

i. - are you?

j. - probably. you next question, Ťwhy and with who?ť

i. - no. . .

j. - i will get married because, not because it is expected, but because it gives security and direction in a relationship. someone to be with for the rest of your life. he might not be faithful, me neither, but we will always be together.

i. - children? love? i didn' t hear Ťloveť in the equation.

j. - children? i physically can't have. . . love, love is not important, unnecessary, but a good part. respect is better. you can love and he abuses. with respect, no. he understands, accepts. love and respect, together, the best. i would be happy with just respect.

i. - naturally. changing the conversation a little, but on a personal level, who do you feel better with? i can turn off the recorder. . .

j. - leave it running. women. your eyebrows are so expressive. i love them. they ask Ťwhy?ť am i making you uncomfortable?

i. - um, no. this conversation is very intense. it is hard for me to keep the relationship just interviewer-interviewed. i am sure you know my feelings. as we are such close friends, it is difficult.

j. - i feel the same way. attraction is a difficult thing. emotions and keeping safe distance, yes. let's talk.

- click -

j. - okay. women. why? how can i explain to you? i can't. making love with a boy is good, with girls is, better.

i. - interesting. so would say that you derive more satisfaction physically from a woman, then?

j. - more than that. emotionally, too. spiritually. macanese girls are the best because we understand each other better than anyone else. we are all from here, know what it is like. but it is funny sometimes, making love to a girl who for all intent and purpose is like your sister.

i. - adds another bond? another attraction, though?

j. - yes. [laughs] i never thought of it like that. good good good.

i. - what attracts you to these other women?

j. - i could say the eyes. but no. the lips? no. them. like you i am trap in being vague.

i. - it is difficult. one can't quantify love, at least not describe what makes one fall in love.

j. - exactly. so you question is pointless, aren't they? [laughs] you are chasing rainbows. you can see it, but you never touch it. on humidity, it is everywhere. you can measure it, you can feel it in your clothes, but you can't. . . [laughs]

i. - what?

j. - i forgot what i was saying.

i. - i get that sense, too. [smiles] but, i feel talking, opening a discourse is extremely important. through the speech act, we begin to understand ourselves and others. it also allows us to negotiate our identities, the multiplicity of them, and vice-versa.

j. - ian, you just looked at your pad. did you write that and read?

i. - no.

j. - [laughs]

i. - . . .

j. - when we had tea you said something about sexuality and psychology. i am speaking for myself, and i don't even know me too well sometime. when it comes to sex, there are no Ťclear boundariesť for feelings. liking the color red, like it the chinese do, its almost universal. see, almost. i hate red. its like that.

i. - like what? pretend i'm completely vacuous. speak english? [smiles]

j. - people, they can like both. there are no rules that say they can't. its all heart. hearts have no bounds.

i. - foucault would disagree.

j. - who?

i. - a, well, a french philosopher. but, this, this what you are saying, sounds like what any, extremely liberated educated, whathaveyou westerner would say.

j. - no, no. look at me, look at who i am. this is coming from a macanese. many feel this, and have felt this, except don't have the courage to act on it. we have the church telling us no, the chinese, so masculine, and portuguese definitely so traditional. that comes no.

i. - i'm confused.

j. - we all have this feelings. but we do not accept them, bury them and live unhappy lives.

i. - that's right.

j. - macanese women live this way. unhappy, unfulfilled sexually at least, in this relation. . .

i. - excuse me, i am going to pretend that i am the voice of reason. . . what you are saying is potentially dangerous, no? you appear to be extending your own, may i be as bold as to say, frustrations with your own experiences with your community on to the whole of an entire set of individuals who may not necessarily agree with what you are saying. i know many macanese who appear to be quite contented with their marital state of affairs. generalizations are not good, although they do help to understand dynamics of systems. . . at any rate, please be careful with you opinions.

j. - appears.

i. - okay, you're talking about your generation? or mine, too?

j. - our generation is the same. how old are you?

i. - . . .

j. - okay. maybe different generations. [laughs]

i. - getting back to the unfulfilled bit, so what do they do ameliorate the situation? speaking on a personal basis, of course.

j. - nothing. cook. work. masturbate.

i. - excuse me?

j. - it is not accepted to see other men, definitely no. the men all talk to each other over beer. prostitution, no. men do that, but as a general rule women don't. some go to Hong Kong.

i. - really? so how do you fit into the equation?

j. - i'm single, and since we are like sisters, we do things between friends. most of us are friends, we can be quiet and discrete. it is like another Ťbondť, like you say, between us. . .

i. - i would really like to explore this subject a little more, but it looks as though evening is advancing upon us.

j. - this was a good talk.

i. - however, before i shut off the recorder, please, could you tell me what you see when you look into the mirror?

j. - nice question. i see me. your eyebrows want me to describe myself. okay. i start with my face. my hair is black, smooth, comes to my chin, straight. full, with some waves. then i see my nose, small, chinese and a little angle, just some european. smooth skin, light brown eyes, almond, i like that image. i have a very chinese face. but my body is full, like a portuguese. wonderful. . .

i. - okay, okay. you needn't continue, just wondering about your body image. you know, what is it that you see, not so much physical features, something a bit deeper. i suppose we're not working on the same wavelength.

j. - maybe we are and you afraid to admit it. what is it that you want me to say? we are too complex to be analyzed, that takes a lifetime, maybe longer to understand. sexuality, identity, they are all together, inextricable, and important to understanding macanese, not only, but anyone. you will have much work.

i. - yes. i know, but i like what i do.

j. - we should do this again some time. when you come back to Macau.

i. - if i come back.

j. - it depends?

i. - on many variables.

j. - wife?

i. - perhaps. as i am prone to saying, we'll see.

j. - publish what i say. change my name, and place. everyone knows anyway. be creative.

i. - definitely.

j. - stay for another tea. you smoke too much. you're too young to be smoking so much.

i. - you're one to talk.

- click -

note: by the end of the interview, i noticed that we had smoked two packs of cigarettes between the two of us. philip morris is smiling somewhere. - i.

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