HTML II WEB HOME DESIGN
Session Start: Sat Feb 06 17:59:26 1999
* Logging #chatcafe to '#html1_feb6.log'
<Ghatten> THis will be Web Home IMprovement
<Otter> or HTML2
<SamB> Hi, I forgot. How do I make a log of this?
<Bo-Peep-N> SamB type /log on
<eagle>  Eagel's Fall Nest for study group, logs, class info and urls.
<eagle> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/3421/enfall.html
<anna1> is there going to be any aol groups?
<Ghatten> AOL groups sometimes form but usually by the students.
<Ghatten> Otter has some excellent information for AOL users and web pages.
<anna1> I'm having lots of problems with aol....I can't change my pages, keeps telling me
 I"m a guest...duh
<Otter> Post a notice on the BB that you want to form an AOL study group
<Ghatten> I suggest you try to form a group by using the bb.
<anna1> I've conversed with aol's techies on this and all I keep getting from them are instructions 
on how to upload to my place
<Ghatten> Otter can you give the location/URL for your resources which include the AOL help stuff?
<Otter> Just got it -- http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/4642/aol_help.html
<Ghatten> Great. Hope the information helps some Anna1 But the tech stuff with AOL is not
 something we can help too much with. 
<Granny-Wicked> me says you can find the instructors pages listed at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/3111/teachers.html 
<Otter> This page was written by an AOL student a few semesters ago!!!
<Ghatten> Yes we are doing the Z
<Otter> For other instructor/student Tutorials -- check:  http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/4642/otter_faqs.html
<Ghatten> Bri2?  Do you have a question?
<bri2> Yes
<bri2> I am not comfortable having to interview
<bri2> ask question of prof.web designers
<Ghatten> Hmm bri2 Can I ask why?
<bri2> I think it wastes their time for one thing
<Otter> bri2 -- they are usually flattered and happy to share info
<bri2> Can student just do page incorporating
<bri2> image maps,frames and stuff we learn
<bri2> as a second choice (g)
<Ghatten> Well, doing the page with the components we learn in class is ALREADY required.
<bri2> thought that had to be incorporated
<bri2> into web designer interview
<bri2> OK Ghatton, don't worry about it
<Ghatten> No, I think it is something that needs to be addressed.
<bri2> If I do interview and don't come back
<bri2> you will know someone put a contract out on me
<Ghatten> Bri2, you can interview me
<Ghatten> I'm harmless
<anneH> or bri2 you could join with a group and a group web page, then you do not 
have to interview
<bri2> Oh, OK, they sounds fine where do I find you
<Ghatten> ghatten@vu.org
<Ghatten> or ghatten@earthlink.net
<bri2> thank you
<Ghatten> I do think there is no reason to worry about asking someone to let you interview them
<Ghatten> If they say no to being interviewed
<Ghatten> Move to someone else
<Ghatten> If they say yes, you can benefit from their knowledge
<bri2> Ghatten it takes all my time to do
<Ghatten> and hopefully so can we all.
<bri2> pages let along fly around the world
<bri2> persuading people to be interviewed LOL
<Ghatten> LOL..ok I am persuaded
<anneH> then your best bet is to interview ghatten!
<bri2> My group already put a page up one person
<bri2> so that is out
<bri2> No. fine I will interview thank you
<Ghatten> Most of the instructors would qualify
<bri2> OK Ghatten, I am persuaded!!!
<Ghatten> And Eagle offers herself as a sacrifice too.
* Otter ducks under the water!!! :)
<bri2> Oh Lord!
<Blossom^> hehehe
* Bo-Peep-N has lost my sheep-n so not me
<Ghatten> ROFL!!  Yeah uh....Bo-Peep-N  you'd better hide too
* Granny-Wicked looks out the window and whistles
<Ghatten> I'll sick them on you next
<Ghatten> Haaa
<Blossom^> lol
<eagle> and I bet Zonie would also have a lot to say Hum I guess I will ask him for an interview LOL
<Ghatten> Why are all of you talented folk crawling understuff now?
* Zonie no speakum : )
<Ghatten> Anyone with an operator status is in DANGER LOL!!
<Granny-Wicked> me I am whistling
<Blossom^> ROFL
<eagle> ok shall we move on to more questions?
<Ghatten> yeah yeah,
<z-Kinkell> hey eagel!! Your it!
<Ghatten> Yes.let's move on
<Ghatten> Fabric?
<fabric> Someone wants to interview me...I'm not a web designer...only have a page...what do I 
do? don't want to hurt feelings
<fabric> lol
<Who_> fake it!
<Ghatten> Uh, either just tell them no
<Ghatten> and let them know why
<Bo-Peep-N> or send them to ghatten
<z-StarByte> lol
* Bo-Peep-N ducks that one
<fabric> ok another question
<eagle> fabric you just have to think you are cause you are after all and been around for longer than 
some of the so called professionals out there
<Blossom^> maybe you could refer them to someone else after saying no fabric
<muthrof5> Have students in your other classes ever done this, and how was it recieved?
<Ghatten> That was my next suggestion
<eagle> Also I am looking for links that companies have that list their prices and billing procedures.
<Ghatten> No, this is a new class. I did expect people to be a bit hesitant.  But learning is not a static 
process and part of this class is about that.
<fabric> i will send them to you 
<Ghatten> *shakes head*
<fabric> in my page Galery i make my frames there
<Otter> Other VU classes though have done interviews and didn't have a problem
<muthrof5> I think it sounds exciting, as I have often found pages like that and wished I could do that.
<fabric> the questions asked were ok..but I'm only new
<Ghatten> Believe it or not, MOST people are not adverse to answering a few questions.  It's a
 tried and true method of learning. I learned a few things that way by apporaching people whose pages 
I liked. I 
only got ONE nasty response out of about 10 requests for information.
<fabric> maybe the person likes TEA....lol
<Bo-Peep-N> and the ONE nasty probably stole the page and could not answer lol
<muthrof5> Maybe it will make them feel good that someone wants to know about them.
<Ghatten> LOL! maybe...I think he was TIRED of answering questions.
<Bo-Peep-N> Here is a true story about informational interviewing...
<anneH> fabric, was you question about frames if that where they should go, as an example on yur
 gallery page?
<fabric> i will send a nice email explaining why...I have to say no...thanks
<Bo-Peep-N> I help people find jobs in an econonically depressed area
<Bo-Peep-N> impossible you would say right?
<Bo-Peep-N> wrong..I send them out on informational interviews
<Bo-Peep-N> talking to potential employers and asking for the employers expertise on leads
<Bo-Peep-N> many of the clients come back to me with a wealth of information, new names to talk to
<anneH> you don't have to have the gallery page be a frame, just link it as an example
<Bo-Peep-N> and much the wiser
<Bo-Peep-N> usually they end up with a job in a few weeks
<Ghatten> Good example!
<Bo-Peep-N> those who do not do it, take much much longer to find a job
<Bo-Peep-N> if ever
<Ghatten> How about this? 
<Bo-Peep-N> this is very much similar
<Bo-Peep-N> it will increase your knowledge base
<Ghatten> I am looking for a job...I've been having trouble figuring out why I did not get hired after 
a couple of GREAT interviews
<Ghatten> I got brave and called back several of the people I interviewed with
<Ghatten> and asked them WHY they did not hire me
<Ghatten> I found out that it was NOT because I was not percieved as a good person to hire
<Ghatten> but among other things I has asked for more money than the person who got hired
<Ghatten> they hired someone from inside the firm
<Bo-Peep-N> another great example of how it can work ghatten :)
<Ghatten> they wanted to see more examples of my work! (MOST of my REAL work was on an 
INTRANET and not public!!)_
<Ghatten> So, now I have a set of information to use in my job search, that I learned from calling back
 people  --- all of them were VERY nice
<Bo-Peep-N> in that case too, interviewing before a real interview can give you this knowledge so you
 can make adjustments
<anneH> ghatten, you need to make a sample then of something that could be used for an intranet
* Granny-Wicked says yes it is hard to interview someone, as hard as it is to interview for a job, just
 the reverse
<Ghatten> TWO of them said they would pass my resume on to someone else they knew of in the 
industry that was also hiring
<Ghatten> Dancin do you have a question?
<dancin> Can we use an editor for any or all of these pages?
<Ghatten> I USUALLY say no to using editors
<EmptySpace> thank you anneH.  I will just "listen" for now.
<Ghatten> I think it makes a difference that you know how to do the HTML
<z-roz^> You have to be brazen *in a sweet sort of way* when looking for a job and anticipate every 
side of the coin if possible.
<Ghatten> but tthose in HTML2 SHOULD know how to use basic HTML
<Z-Fabric> no editors please....
<Ghatten> If you DO know how and are in the class to learn more about the extras you can use on pages
<dancin> Ok, thanks, some wanted to use an editor, I thought it was a no, no.
<Ghatten> then yes, you can use an editor. BUT I'd strongly suggest you use it ONLY if you COULD 
recreate the page from scratch
<z-roz^> !
<Ghatten> In HTML1 it is a no no
* Otter thinks it is easier *not* to use an editor!
<Ghatten> HTML 2 it's going to be a judgement call on YOUR part. Like so many other parts of this
 class...it's up to you to decide how you will best LEARN something
<Ghatten> And consider that if you get stuck using an editor like FrontPage...and you go somewhere
 that they do not have that editor or ANY editor
<Bo-Peep-N> yous in trouble
<Ghatten> and you DO NOT know what to do....are you going to be credible as someone who knows 
HTML or as someone who can operate an editor
<Bo-Peep-N> ha!
<Zonie> most editors will mess up your code and make it hard to find something that needs fixing by hand
<Ghatten> Another good point.
<Lan29> What program do recommend we use
<Ghatten> But --- no grade penalty will be levied if the pages you make are with an editor ---- as long 
as the code is not filled with extraneous tags or incorrect HTML
<z-roz^> With Homesite 4.0 you can do most of your own html and still get some of the benefits of their automated features.
<Zonie> NotePad and know how will do it all : )
<Ghatten> (Beware of the HTML Editor which adds a new <FONT> Tag for FONT SIZE FONT COLOR FONT FACE!!!!!!!!
<Blossom^> the only reason I use Coffeecup is because I have everything at my fingertips, images, sound,javascripts, ect, but I can hand code if I want to with no problems...
<Blossom^> it's just faster when I have a lot of pages to do..
<Ghatten> Or that adds extra <BODY> Tags for the varios modifcations to the body tag that are possible!!
<z-Kinkell> sometimes geocities adds things even if you don['t use the editor there!
<Blossom^> just my opinion....  :^)
<Zonie> Geo always adds there Ad stuff : )
<Otter> Geocities adds JavaScript for their pop-up ads and Geoguide
<z-Kinkell> I9 don't know what to take out when they do it!
<Ghatten> I don't recommend ANY editor.  I use a basic text based editor called Webber 32. It only 
adds what I want it to and where I want it to
<z-StarByte> On every page you add too!
<anneH> sometimes geocities will wash out special characters that you add also
<Ghatten> Most people learn to code in Notepad or Simpletext
<eagle> notepad+
<Zonie> « z-Kinkell »: always keep a copy on HD, that don't have all that : )
<Ghatten> Next question?  Emptyspace are you here for HTML 2 and do you have a question
<Otter> If you edit on your HD -- you don't have to worry about deleting all the stuff the other servers insert!!
<Ghatten> I apologize if we do not get to all questions today.  Please email any unanswered ones to us at html2@vu.org
<Zonie> I got a goodie to share : )
<Zonie> HTML TIP:  First locate your Send To folder should be C:\Windows\Send To just so you 
know where it is. Then look in C:\Windows\System and find notepad.exe file, right click notepad.exe
 file and hold 
right mouse button down while you drag it to C:\Winodows\Send To, release the right mouse button 
and choose
 Create Shortcut here.
<Zonie>  That's it your done, now right click on a text file like *.txt, *.log, *.html etc., then choose 
Send To Notepad should now be in the list of options and ready for use.
<Ghatten> ok let's see if guest15795 has question....
<Zonie> Note: Short cuts can be done with your browsers *.exe files the same way just replace 
notepad.exe in the instructions with your browsers *.exe  [Example: IEXPLORE.EXE........... netscape.exe], 
great for 
testing your HTML pages
<Zonie> major time saver : )
<Ghatten> Thank you Zonie
<eagle> lizard unless that is your name I would assume it is taken but to change your nick type nick thyp /nick Lizard or /nick Lizard^
<Perkins>  yes      is there an MSIE equivalent of Netscape's whiteboard? I think whiteboard 
would be a fun way to collaborate--don't know much about it but am open to learning more with 
yall. will internet 
collaboration tools be used in this class?
<Ghatten> (haha..I know you do?)
<Perkins> i thyped this ahead of time
<Perkins> redfaced!
<Ghatten> Cool....I know Microsoft has NetMeeting which I believe has whiteboard abilities
<Perkins> well can you see my whiteboard question?
<Ghatten> But for this class we will be using only IRC
<z-StarByte> I just learned how to use NetMeeting
<Ghatten> Groups may use whatever the members find useful
<z-StarByte> And I also use Netscape's Netscape Conference
<Perkins> i can't decide what to do==should I spruce up my very first web site from last fall?
<Perkins> or work with a group on the John Muir page?
<Ghatten> Hmmm..which do you think you will get more from doing?
<eagle> do both
<Perkins> i have no idea
<anneH> it really is up to you, but I learned a lot from working with a group
<Ghatten> I'd personally opt for the group opportunity
<Perkins> or i could do a fan page on suze orman
<Ghatten> You can always use the info later to do your own over
<Perkins> how big is the John Muir page?
<Ghatten> and you will learn from working with group
<Otter> If you haven't worked on a "Group" page -- it is a good experience!!!
<Perkins> thats true
<Ghatten> Not sure. You'd have to ask the group leader I guess...is that person here?
<Perkins> i think i will work on the John Muir page
<Perkins> but it looks sooo big that im a bit scared
<Ghatten> Good. 
<jim> Is it just me or does anyone else find Netscape less stable than I.E. 4.0?
<Who_> which NS?
<Perkins> net 3 is a lot MORE stable than Net 4!
<Who_> 4.5 is working okay for me
<Ghatten> :)
<EmptySpace> Can any y one tell me how to get to this chat room from IRC (after I've logged on)?
<anneH> some people who tried 4.6 went back to 4.5 after trouble with 4.6
<Perkins> but what if the John Muir is 500 pages!
<Ghatten> type /join #chatcafe
<z-Vikki> 4.5 locks up on me every once in awhile but it's not bad
<jim> I've tried Netscape 4.0 and I.E. 4.0 and Netscape invariably crashes much more often
<Perkins> which one is better net 4.06 or Net 4.5?
<Ghatten> I'ds suspect if it is that big it will be a long term project done with each person having a section or segment.
Session Close: Sat Feb 06 19:04:07 1999