Session Start: Sat Mar 13 18:07:04 1999
* Logging #chatcafe to '#html2_3_13.log'
<Otter-eating> Snow applet can be seen here --- 
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/6140/brrrrr.html
<z-Milton_S> Many people are afraid of Java and javascript because they THINK
 they might be viruses
<Ghatten> Do we have any questions tonight or are we just gabbing?
<dancin> I have two questions  How do I code to get a <HR>colored line with
 css and how do I designate where I want it?
<Granny-Wicked> I have a question too
<Granny-Wicked> after dancin
<Ghatten> Believe it or not...that colored <HR> will work in IE but not 
in Netscape
<Ghatten> (see lesson 6)   but it
<dancin> Oh, that is why I can not make it work, I have netscape
<Ghatten> It's funny that way...according to what I've read in CSS specs it
 SHOULD work
<Ghatten> but Netscape doesn't show it
<dancin> Second question where do I put target code in my style sheet to
 break out of frame?
<Ghatten> It's probably the FIRST Thing I wanted to see from it.
<dancin> Me to ghatten, I tried and tried.
<Ghatten> Dancin, that one is beyond my knowledge at this point!
<anneH> why would it need to go in the style sheet to break out of a frame?
<anneH> I would want it to break out of a frame for me too as my netscape
 does not support CSS
<dancin> Oh, well I tried several things nothing worked, thanks anyway.
<Zonie> don't think you can code in CSS to break out of frames, that would 
go in your HTML doc
<dancin> my style sheet is week6 of my framed gallery page.
<anneH> dancin, just put a link on your page for people to go to a non 
framed page
<Ghatten> I will however see if I can find you an answer, if there is one. :)
<dancin> not my file css, but my html document zonie
<anneH> what's the url for it dancin
<Zonie> break out of frames is just a link to the main page with TARGET="top"
<dancin> http//web.inw.net/~sackew/vubk.html  it is week 6
<dancin> Where should I put the target
<anneH> if you have any links in your main frame page you can also put
 <BASE TARGET="_top"> within the head tag
<anneH> then all of the links will take you out of the frame too
<Zonie>  http://web.inw.net/~sackew/vubk.html
<dancin> I do not have any links that is why I am wondering where to put it.
<dancin> just put <BASE Target="top"> and that will do it?
<anneH> you would need to put it in table of contents frame or links that 
take you to the CSS page in the url itself
<dancin> on the masterfile?
<anneH> you can put base target in the head tag of your table of contents
 page too and that will break each page out of the frame if you want it to
<anneH> not on the masterfile page
<dancin> explain where if not masterfile page please
<anneH> on your table of contents page that might be on the left side
<anneH> if you want all of the links to sections to go out a frame...
<dancin> I do not have a table of contents.
<anneH> then you put the base target in the head tag
<anneH> i need to see your frames pages to see where to suggest it
<z-Vikki> http://web.inw.net/~sackew/vubk.html     is her frames pages anneH 
<anneH> but it goes within any of the html pages that you are loading into the 
columns or rows
<dancin> week 6 is where I am trying to do this.
<anneH> on your weeks.html page
<anneH> on the link you have made to week 6 this is where you will put 
the stuff to break it out of frame
<dancin> six anneH
<dancin> yes
<anneH> <A HREF="week6.html" TARGET="_top">
<IMG SRC="1btn.gif" BORDER="0" ALT="BUTTON" WIDTH="17" HEIGHT="17">WEEK 6</A>
<anneH> right now you had it as target it image
<dancin> Oh, so weeks is my table of contents?
<anneH> the target=_"top" will have the page show out of the frame which is what
 you want to demonstrate what you are doing with the CSS
<anneH> right
<anneH> you just happen to have on the right side for your menu
<anneH> and as you see you can call it anything you wish
<dancin> I had tried it there but it did not work.
<dancin> So that is where the target belongs?
<anneH> dancin, if you can do two things at once, try editing the file and upload
 it
<anneH> if you want all of the links to each week to show out of your frames
<dancin> I can see it here after I up load it.  
<dancin> No I do not want all of them out, I left some to show the frames.
<anneH> then within the HEAD tag of weeks.html you put <BASE TARGET stuff
<anneH> just put it in the actual links for the pages you want out of the frames,
 the others will load into the frame
<dancin> Oh, you put it both places.
<anneH> well you should not do it both places as everything would break out of 
frames
* Who_ raises hand to ask a question
<anneH> but I guess you could decide which one has the most, then for the ones 
you want to go your main content page, just put the target to main window
 for those
<anneH> whew, i was waiting for you to resuce Steve!
<Ghatten> dancin, you did use the target top in lesson 5
<Who_> no rescue...just point of question?
<Ghatten> when you made the Ballroom Dancing link open outside of frames
<dancin> Yes, no problem using it with a link, I have not used it without a link,
<Who_> Dancin...are you asking about YOU linking to a page to remove it
from frames OR....
<Who_> coding your page so that it is NEVER stuffed into frames no matter 
how the viewer gets to it?
<dancin> I just want this one week to go out of the frame,
<Who_> ?
<anneH> <A HREF="http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/parliament/723" TARGET="TOP">
<anneH> that is the link dancin made for week 5
<dancin> When it is clicked on by a viewer.
<anneH> I think it should be changed to TARGET="_top"> just to be safe even 
though it works
<dancin> Yes, that is a link, I have not problem adding it to a link, it is 
like now where I do not have a link orther than the text document css
<dancin> I changed it and put the target in head and it still does not work.
<anneH> you have to take the target="image" out of the link first for the 
ones you want
<anneH> to break out of the frame
<dancin> I took it out, I just found that, I had forgot about it, but it 
did not help.
<Who_> How to break out of frames if someone
<Who_> has trapped your site in their frameset.
<anneH> dancin, i did not see where you added the code, which page did you 
just upload
<Who_> http://www.infohiway.com/javascript/clear.htm
<dancin> I did not upload, just looking at there.
<dancin> You better help the others, I will work on it some more.
<anneH> dancin, email me after class and we can look at it
<anneH> ahartman@wwnet.net
<dancin> ok, thanks anneh
<Perkins> ghatten?
* Who_ has new pic for all to gaze upon with admiration...
<Who_> http://www.geocities.com/heartland/plains/2587/jacob.html
<Perkins> umm i have a question about a very old cookbook that my Mom
 has had for fifty years
<Perkins> a betty crocker cookbook
<Perkins> I am a bit confused about copyright here
<Perkins> I see no copyright symbol in this *particular* cookbook
<Perkins> some of the pictures look great!
<Perkins> I was wondering if it would be okay for me to scan one of the pics 
<Perkins> and use it on a web site for class
<Ghatten> Ok, I do not know if a 50 year cookbook would be under copyright but 
I am sure it was under at once if not still
<Otter> is there a publishing date in it?
<Perkins> i see no info like that
<Ghatten> But chances are good that it might even have been renewed or 
something over the years if they used it in another cookbook for example
<anneH> i wonder if you can right to the people who do betty crocker 
cookbook now
<Otter> Is there a publisher listed that you can contact?
<Who_> Perkins...what is your intention with the materials?
<z-kinkell> US codes  http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/
<Perkins> just to create web graphics for a web site for one of my VU classes
<Who_> to "borrow" a picture or two?
<Perkins> yep
<Perkins> to be specific   
<z-kinkell> uk copyright http://www.patent.gov.uk:80/dpolicy/howlong.html
<Perkins> I think the pictures of bonbons are nice
<Perkins> or maybe I could go to a bakery and buy a bonbon then take a picture
 of it
<Perkins> what do yall think LOL
<Otter> Hmmmm -- I think I have seen that pix in a newer version of the BC
 book (still about 30 yrs old tho!!)
<anneH> i think i would get permission before using it then
<Granny-Wicked> hmmm, I think I would like to see perkins fix bonbons
<Perkins> i want to make a web graphic of bonbons and champagne 
<Ghatten> I was undobutled copyright then....probably still!  I'd go buy 
and get to eat them! LOL!
<Perkins> would I need to get permission frm the bakery to take a pic of
 their bonbons
<zdancin> Could you call it my mother favorite receipes from the Betty 
Crocker cook book?
<Granny-Wicked> good idea dancin
<Ghatten> I don't think the bakery copyrights the bonbons ....
<z-alf> no when you buy the bonbon it is yours, for pics the copywrite 
goes to the photographer unless they sell the right or are under contract
<Perkins> ghatten so it would be okay for me to take a pic of the bakery 
bonbons right?(just the bonbon-nothing else)
<Perkins> I would take a pic of the bonbons with my own Polaroid
<Ghatten> So I'm pretty sure it is safe to take photo! 
<z-alf> Perkins, if you take the pic the copy right is yours
<Perkins> if I take the pic with my own Polaroid , ghatten that means i 
own the copyright
<Zonie> your bon bon's your camara, your copyright
<Granny-Wicked> when it comes to food how can it be copywrited?
<z-alf> food isn't but the pic is!
<Ghatten> Now, you could not necessarily extrapolate that to everything.
<Granny-Wicked> okay go by bon bon's freeze then take the picture!!
<Granny-Wicked> no perkins not silly, really it is a good question
<Perkins> what do you mean Ghatten?
<Perkins> not extrapolate what to everything?
<Ghatten> You probably could not take pic of the bakery box with their name
<Ghatten> Or just take pictures of Coke cans....
<z-alf> no names allowed
<Ghatten> That should be fine Perkins. A pic of the bonbon
>  or a picture of a famous picture
> > or art piece
<Perkins> i see NO copyright symbol sorry to butt in
<Ghatten> I would not trust that the book did not have a copyright notice
<Ghatten> might have fallen out or been lost
<Ghatten> but books are copyright
<Ghatten> Better Crocker for sure
<Perkins> okay thanks Ghatten   :-)

<skrazo> Is it possible to see someone's linked style sheet w/ view source?
<Ghatten> You will have to look at source code for page
<Ghatten> And SEE where they hid the .css
<z-alf> publisher holds the copyright
<Ghatten> Getting example!
<anneH> when you try to open the file, you can open it in a text editor if 
you can save the .css file too
<anneH> while ghatten is looking, anybody else have a question
<Granny-Wicked> me
<skrazo> if you view the source, I never see the .css file contents
<anneH> i know, that happens to me too, but I can see the text itself in IE, 
not in IE
<Ghatten> ok
<Ghatten> having cut and paste trouble LOL
<anneH> not in netscape i meant
<Ghatten> You will have to do this.
<Ghatten> Look at the code of the docuemnt
<Ghatten> and you will not see the CSS there if it is linked
<skrazo> ok
<Ghatten> but you should be able to SEE the name of the Css and the directory 
it is in
<skrazo> ok
<Ghatten> if it is differnt from the one that the page is in
<Ghatten> most often it will not be.
<Ghatten> And you should be able to seei t
<skrazo> ok
<anneH> or save the file and look at it later too
<skrazo> do I have to type in the file name somewhere?
<skrazo> ... of the .css file
<anneH> i just added the filename to the location screen to get to it
<Ghatten> yes, you will have to use the filename and the URl
<Zonie> in address window of browser, add the name of the *.css to end of 
the URL, if there is a *.html listed at end remove it and enter the name 
of the *.css
<anneH> use the url and then add the filename, nameoffile.css
<skrazo> OH! I see
<Zonie> http://www.somewhere.com/filename.css
<skrazo> Good to know that
<skrazo> Thanks
<Ghatten> yes
<Ghatten> If you get a prompt to use an app to open it. select notepad
<skrazo> no more questions from me!
<anneH> GW, ask your question quick before HTML I gets started
<Granny-Wicked> from the lessons I tried to copy the css pages using 
netscape 4.5, composer but couldn't get the colors to show, is this a 
css thing that is not copyable? a lots of people asked on the bb, just 
for information sake how can we get the colors to show on the saved copys
 of the page?
<zdancin> It worked thanks zonie thank skrazo for asking that question 
I wanted know how also.
<Granny-Wicked> thanks
<Ghatten> You should be able to copy it
<Ghatten> Can you tell me what did not work?
<Granny-Wicked> the page copied, not the colors
<Ghatten> How so? Was it the one with the linked sheet?
<Granny-Wicked> I have examples 12, 3, but not the colors
<anneH> the .css just sets it up and is not a page that will show things
<Ghatten> If so, the answer above would apply...since the stule example 
is linked by the style sheet
<Granny-Wicked> oh, okay, thanks
<Ghatten> Let me see if I can explain again!
<Granny-Wicked> a lot of other people asked that on the bb also
<anneH> did you save the .css file itself, you need to have that in the 
same directory too
<Ghatten> HTML one folks just hang in there!
<Granny-Wicked> yes I saved all lessons
<Zonie> have to save *.css file too : )
<Granny-Wicked> but didn't know about the .css file
<Granny-Wicked> I will get that too, thanks
<Granny-Wicked> could someone post the answer on the bb for the others 
too?
<Zonie> ok I nominate Granny-Wicked : )
<anneH> use what ghatten told you to save the file from the lesson 
called example.css
<Granny-Wicked> okay will do thank anneH
<anneH> make sure that is in the same directory with linked.html
 embedded.html and inline.html
<Ghatten> okay....I opened the file in ie
<Ghatten> Let me explain 
<Ghatten> A linked style sheet is a separate file from the HTML one
<anneH> right
<Ghatten> Think of it something like how your images are technically 
separate from your web pages
<Ghatten> You put in the code
<Ghatten> IMG SRC=
<Ghatten> and the name and the browser looks for and finds the image your
 "point" to
<Ghatten> so <IMG SRC="cat.gif">
<Ghatten> tells the browser...go, look for cat.gif in this directory and 
show it in this spot on the page
<Ghatten> A linked .css file works in a SIMILAR manner
<Ghatten> When I type:  <LINK REL=stylesheet TYPE="text/css" HREF="^example.css">
<Ghatten> It tells the browser
<Ghatten> Go, look for a file called ^example.css
<Ghatten> and if you find it, apply the instructions in it to this web page
<Ghatten> So, if you want to have the web page show the colors and the style 
changes
<Ghatten> You need both files
<Ghatten> the html document and the .css file
<Ghatten> Just like you need an html file and an image to have that work
<anneH> looks like this description is something that should be added to the 
lessons for next term!
<Ghatten> yes!
<Granny-Wicked> yes please anneH
<Ghatten> body                             {background:antiquewhite;}
<Ghatten> H1                                {font-family:arial, helvetica;
<Ghatten> 			color:darkgreen;}
<Ghatten> p			{font-family:arial, helvetica;
<Ghatten> 			color:#000000;
<Ghatten> 			font-size:12pt;}
<Ghatten> a			{text-decoration:none;
<Ghatten> 			font-family:times, times new roman;
<Ghatten> 			color:red;
<Ghatten> 			font-size:13pt;}
<Ghatten> div			{font-family:arial, helvetica;
<Ghatten> 			color:darkgreen;
<Ghatten> 			font-size:11pt;
<Ghatten>                                     font-weight:bold;
<Ghatten>                                     t
<kittycat1> Makes sense now
<Ghatten> That is the contents of that file.
<Ghatten> (minus the weird blocks)
<anneH> i never understood the question and what it meant when it was posted 
on the bulletin board or I could have answered it
<zdancin> That is where grannys color were hiding.
<Ghatten> Granny did that help you?
<Granny-Wicked> yes ghatten
<Granny-Wicked> I think so...
* anneH hopes GW is on her way to the bulletin board later to post the 
answer too ;)
<Granny-Wicked> only I use netscape, so I will have to find the .css and 
access it
<zdancin> I use netscape granny and I can see the file.
<Ghatten> If you used the html file without having a copy of the .css file 
to give it the instructions, it would work like a broken image
<Granny-Wicked> right, that is happening
<anneH> that little carat in front of the filename was that it did not show 
in the classroom index
<Zonie> only with no indication of being broken on the page
<Ghatten> except in this case, the styles are simply missing (there is not
 "missing css" marker to let you know)
<Granny-Wicked> I see the HREF, just cant figure out how to copy it to my files
<anneH> i think next term it would help to show it on the index to people know 
it is there
<anneH> save the file just like you do a webpage granny
<Granny-Wicked> I did anneH, only no colors show
<anneH> hmmm, and it is in the same directory
<Granny-Wicked> yes
<Zonie> Granny-Wicked add the name of the *.css to the end of thr URL in your
 browsers address window, and hit enter
<anneH> I will try to get you the file, i will send it by email in a zip file 
to you
<Granny-Wicked> okay zonie, will do
<Granny-Wicked> thanks anneH
<Granny-Wicked> I would appreciate it
<z-skrazo> Is a CSS class in the making at V.U.?
<Zonie> if there is an *.hml listed in URL delete it first : )
<Ghatten> Not yet skrazo
<Ghatten> But I think it should be a whole class!
<Ghatten> I will try to post an explanation on the BB
<anneH> http://www.vu.org/desk/83/^example.css
<anneH> i can see it in netscape now
<Ghatten> to clarify it again
<Ghatten> I can see it in IE
<Ghatten> Or I should say with Notepad from IE
<zdancin> that was a good hint zonie, works real well.
<anneH> and I can also select save as, and it save to my hard drive
<Granny-Wicked> okay maybe I will get ie and do it from there
<zdancin> It works with Netscape granny.
<Otter> I can get it with NS granny
<Granny-Wicked> I have a copy of the lesson, not a problem and the examples, 
just no colors, all are in the same file, I will work on this too, so as not 
to hold up the html 1 class
<z-Perkins> should the carat always be in front of the word "example"?
<Granny-Wicked> thanks everyone
<Ghatten> in this case it is because the VU directory is set up that way
<Ghatten> you can name the file anyway you like as long as it has the .css