Session Start: Sat Feb 13 19:02:24 1999
*** Now talking in #chatcafe
*** greennet.ma.us.webchat.org changes topic to 'Virtual University HTML II (Home Improvement) (Zonie)'
<Otter> Guess class is over -- everyone else is zzzzzz!!! LOL
<anneH> did everybody get to experiment with a form and how did it work out?
<fabric> should we try all the frames in the lesson?
<anneH> who has some tips to try to vary the frames from the example
<Otter> fabric -- if you want to learn how to do frames -- you need to experiment and practice as much as you can!
<Who_> HEY ALL....I would really, really, really like to see some frames that don't look exactly like the lesson!
<Otter> You all should surf the WWW and check out other ways to present frames on your web site!
<Who_> Experiment with the attributes we didn't demonstrate
<Otter> There's lots out there
<Who_> Look at how others have used frames and use your VIEW feature
<Malibu> Actually, I have a question about dicer, if anyone tried it.
<anneH> what I hope is that people who put their gallery in a frame will use target=_"top" to urls off the site so that those pages will show out of the frames
<Zonie> cuts up an image to use in tables or frames
<Zonie> target=new window works bettter : )
<Malibu> Yep. It leaves little purple boxes around the image segments. How do you get rid of them
<Zonie> in your IMG SRC tag use BORDER=0
<Otter> I haven't used it -- but usually BORDER="0"
<anneH> malibu, i was wondering about that too, make sure the </TD> appears on the same line with the link to the section
<Otter> gets rid of the boxes
<anneH> you can add to the code that dicer generates
<Malibu> AnneH, how?
<Malibu> Oh, never mind AnneH. I just saw the rest of your message. Thanks
<anneH> just edit the text and like was suggested add border="0" in the line for each different section that is "diced"
<Malibu> Gotcha
<anneH> there was a code in there that I had no idea what it did though
<oriole> Just curious - on my image map, when I move the mouse over the point
<oriole> Sometimes it shows the alt tag and sometimes it doesn't. Why??
<z-kinkell> need to know if I did the alt settings ok on map
<Zonie> one of them things : )
<anneH> which browser are you using?
<Zonie> gremlins : )
<oriole> They all do that? ;-)
<anneH> IE often shows alt tags but Netscape doesn't
<Zonie> all 3 of mine do : )
<Otter> oriole -- are you using NS or IE?
<Zonie> IE5b2, NS4.5, NS3.04
<oriole> Netscape 4.5
<z-kinkell> hmmm
<anneH> give us the URL for your image map
<Otter> should show on that -- like Zonie said -- gremlins!!! LOL
<Zonie> yep from time to time they sneak in : )
<Otter> URL?
<oriole> I have two - try this one http://www.monmouth.com/~anygren/johnmuirplaces.html
<Zonie> then sneak out again : )
<Otter> checking now oriole
<Zonie> Malibu question ?
<anneH> I will remind ghatten to suggest the alt tags in the image map lesson too for next time
<oriole> On this one, they seem to work consistently (I think...)http://www.monmouth.com/~anygren/HTML2MainPage.html
<Malibu> Yea, Did anyone try mouseovers?
<z-kinkell> mapedit put them in, but I can't see them
<anneH> it is ok if you don't see that alt tags, that is primarily for when graphics are turned off or text browser anyway
<Malibu> I tried it with mapedit too. Same thing. No mouseover.
<Who_> i don't see m/o with NS3.x here
<Otter> I'm not getting it on NS oriole on the first URL
<Zonie> any one try mouse overs ?, I have in past but too much trouble : )
<z-dancin> I did, mine works for me when when I run mouse over, do not know if they work for anyone else.
<z-kinkell> don't know what you mean Zonie
<oriole> ;-( Zonie. For the John Muir map it would be nice for the country names to show up...
<Otter> mouse overs are fun -- their not that hard to do!!!
<anneH> that will be coming in Week 3 lessons
<Zonie> z-kinkell was answering Malibu
<z-dancin> That is not the same thing as running your mouse over the image?
<anneH> when you run your mouse over the part of the imagemap the url in Netscape will show, the place it will take you if you click on that section
<anneH> mouseover zonie, were you talking about JavaScript??
<Zonie> yes JS : )
<Zonie> only mouseover I know of : )
<anneH> that is in Week 3 coming soon
<Zonie> « Granny-Wicked »: has a question, go ahead Granny
<Otter> check http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/4642/otter_faqs.html -- and run the pointer over the buttons -- then look in the bottom task bar to see what it says
<Granny-Wicked> my question is how do you stop a page that is in frames from going inside itself so frames open inside frames? for instance (don't hit me kinkell) but I went to kinkells place and I clicked a button and it caused her frames to go inside her framed page, why is that?
<Zonie> target problem : )
<z-kinkell> cause I am missing something
<Granny-Wicked> mine did that too, when I had them on line
<Zonie> TARGET=
<Otter> oriole -- I don't get the alt to show on either of your sites!!
<Zonie> or your trying to load the site in that frame
<Who_> ORIOLE....don't see any mouseover coding in your source code?
<Granny-Wicked> I even got vu's site in the frames
<Granny-Wicked> really wierd
<oriole> Funny - I just got the alts to show on both! What browser are you using??
<Zonie> like like <A HREF="http://www.mysite.com/mysite.html>
<Otter> NS4.07 here
<z-Malibu> Thanks Otter for the URL
<Zonie> need <A HREF="http://www.mysite.com/mysite.html" TARGET="parent">
<Granny-Wicked> parent being?
<oriole> Thanks for checking, Otter - maybe it only works (sometimes) in 4.5
<Otter> BTW -- that URL has some great and easy tutorials you all might want to check out sometime -- http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/4642/otter_faqs.html
<Granny-Wicked> it changed from target="_top"?
<Zonie> for like other sited if you don't want them in one of your frames use TARGET="new window" seems to work the best on all browsers now
<Granny-Wicked> awe okay that is good to know
<anneH> there are several different targets that get something out of frames
<z-kinkell> that's what i need to do
<Zonie> top never did work as advertised for me : )
<Granny-Wicked> okay and how has the definition of what is best in all browsers?
<Granny-Wicked> opps
<Zonie> parent loads in the same browser window, new window opens a new window and keeps yours open at same time : )
<Granny-Wicked> okay and who's site has the definition of what is best in all browsers?
<Granny-Wicked> who's as in otters? zonie? etc?
<anneH> that is interesting it did not work as advertised zonie, I like it cause it just goes next and shows the new page, not in a separate browser window, then I just use back button to get back to original page
<Zonie> no site, tombstone technoligy : )
<Granny-Wicked> lol
<Granny-Wicked> I need site information to bookmark tombstone doesn't work here!!
<Otter> Again -- on the tutorial URL I gave -- each tutorial "should" open in a new browser window -- check my source code -- http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Campus/4642/otter_faqs.html
<Granny-Wicked> thanks otter
<Zonie> I always use new window, so my links are still up and availalble so can see both at same time : )
<Granny-Wicked> okay I will think about redoing frames and uploading them again!!
<Otter> But the original page has to load completely before it works!!!
<anneH> did orioles question about the imagemap and alt tags get answered enuf?
<Zonie> new window works if not fully loaded, I never wait : )
<Otter> 50-50 here Zonie!!! LOL
<Zonie> I see link I click link ; )
<Zonie> don't care about the rest that may or not be there : )
<Otter> :)
<oriole> I think so - I'm assuming the alot tag only works sometimes, with some browsers ;[) Looks like I need to learn mouseovers.
<oriole> alot=alt
<Who_> ORIOLE: That is not "mouseover" so to speak....
<anneH> mouseovers is worse, as people have to use JavaScript and there is even more variation in browsers with JavaScript
<oriole> The reason I wanted it to show is that on the Muir map the names of the countries are in such small print.
<anneH> with an imagemap, be sure to have an alternative navigation method also, like text based menu
<Granny-Wicked> true true
<Otter> oriole -- you might want to check some of the resource sites for image maps mentioned in the lesson
<anneH> if graphics are turned off, people cannot budge or check a link
<oriole> What am I looking for in particular, Otter?
<anneH> you also have to have the rest of the information needed for an imagemap to work
<Otter> Well, I don't use image maps that much, but if you look at the lesson, Ghatten doesn't even show the ALT attribute being used!!
<oriole> MapEdit put it in there...
<Otter> So, I would check some tutorials and see what they suggest
<anneH> but next time it is something she can add, DR HTML complains when there are no alt tags
<anneH> she probably had an older version of mapedit when she made the imagemap awhile ago
<Otter> or check a site that has an image map that shows the name and check the source code
<z-Milton_S> A comment: Blind people need the ALT tags to "See" the page
<Otter> True and good point Milt
<Otter> they use voice synthesizers to "read" the page to them and it reads the ALT attribute
<z-dancin> HTML I, she said always use ALT tags.
<Granny-Wicked> yes alt tags are still needed!!
<Otter> that's why if you have an image that is a link -- the ALT should say "go to picture of my cat"
<Otter> instead of click here or whatever
<Otter> otherwise visually impaired people don't understand what is going on with the image
<Otter> any more questions/comments?
<Zonie> answers ? : )
<anneH> oriole, send email to html2@vu.org with the urls so people can look more closely at your imagemaps and the code when there is more time too
<Otter> we'll still check it for you oriole -- might be a tiny error in your coding
<Who_> Its important if you have a Q and we can't answer
<anneH> http://www.htmlgoodies.com/tutors/cs_imap.html
<anneH> this is tutorial for imagemaps
<z-Vikki> is the new window "new window" or "_new window" ?
<Zonie> new_window or new window
<z-Vikki> k zonie thanks
<Zonie> both seem to work the same
<Otter> also "viewer" works!!!
<anneH> now that would be a good question to see if they work i all browsers either way
<z-Vikki> otter? "viewer" ?
<Otter> yes Vikki -- it will open a new browser window!
<Zonie> never saw that one before : )
<z-Vikki> ah.. ok cool
<Otter> I haven't checked in HTML4.0 -- but they are probably limiting what will be used in the future
<z-Vikki> I will redo my frames pages and try new stuff. :)
<Who_> let us know
<z-Vikki> will do :)
<Otter> keep experimenting -- that's what this class is for! :)
<Otter> also a good way to learn new things
<z-Vikki> I have been LOL
<z-Vikki> putting other things in frames like my psp homework for lesson 2 <G>
<anneH> it is good to have people check frames in different monitor resolutions too as sometimes what you think shows the table of contents big enough is too small for low res monitor, and if you cannot scroll or move it, then you can't get too all the links from the table of contents
<z-kinkell> I still don't like frames!
* anneH thinks who has created a nightmare!
<z-Vikki> still very simple frame but looks different from html2 frames
<anneH> mostly i do not care for frames either, but it is fun to learn how to do them
<z-Vikki> LOL kinkell.. not my favorite either but I want to learn how to make them effective :)
<Otter> some people tend to put too many frames on a page and it's very difficult to read and navigate
<z-Vikki> yes otter.. I've seen that!
<Granny-Wicked> I saw some this week that would have been better with two frames
<Granny-Wicked> forget the bottom one
<Zonie> like frames, don't like border on them : )
<Zonie> but like Otter said, too many is bad too
<z-Vikki> personally I like borderless two frame window if at all
<anneH> yes, the bottom one can be eliminated, steve aka who just did that for an example to show the difference in the tutorial
<Zonie> I use 3, one for banner, one for menu, and one for content, saves a lot of load time : )
<z-Vikki> it was good tutorial
<anneH> the other thing I noticed is that two things are needed to make it seamless for both netscape and IE
<Zonie> border and cellspacing
<Otter> I saw one the other day with a banner ad in a top frame, navigation on left side frame, email stuff in bottom frame and left very little space for the "info" frame!!! LOL
<Flamingo> OK thanks. Just learning tables, didn't know that tag could have attributes.
<anneH> i cannot remember but I did have background gif for all the frames pages
<anneH> yes we are in HTML 1 now, but HTML2 is welcome to stay and help out too