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Gor and BDSM

Dungeon Chat is held Wednesday Evenings 9-11 EST in the Dungeon @ Fantassia's Palace.
All are welcome with the understanding that we all have the right to disagree without being disagreeable.

(following text has been edited ~ foregoing greetings, etc.)

Wed Apr 5 7:19:03 2000
Harpoon: Evening Lady Precious Rose. =)

I'm not Gorean, but I'm familiar with the customs and protocols. I'd say though that My katiana knows more than I do.

Wed Apr 5 7:20:17 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
For the sake of discussing, in a manner that is respectful of everyone's particular views, I ask that we all remember that we do not have to agree with each other . . but please do so w/o name calling, . . battle axes, etc. and see if there is indeed some common ground.

Wed Apr 5 7:21:17 2000
~Lady Precious Rose~:
~Soft Chuckle~
Tal ~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~

Wed Apr 5 7:21:20 2000
~*bambi*~: ~settles back to listen~

Wed Apr 5 7:21:23 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: ~placing the backs of her hands against the well branded flesh of her thighs, she looks around in hushed silence, watching, listening~

Wed Apr 5 7:21:41 2000
Damian_Bloodstar: Of course.....I see no need for Anger in a simple discussion.......

Wed Apr 5 7:22:30 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: agreed of course ~CC~....~ss~

Wed Apr 5 7:22:44 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: okay *lil grin* Everyone to their corners . . and NO fighting

I want to preface this discussion with a simple statement . . .

one of the things that we often hear in the groups or on line for that matter with regard to bdsm, is "your kink may not be my kink but that's okay" . . . or acceptance and allowing another's kink for to do less also limits your own acceptance . . .

Wed Apr 5 7:22:48 2000
Truxton: I agree

Wed Apr 5 7:23:45 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: ~warm smile to Mistress ~CC~ for Her wonderful words of Wisdom~

Wed Apr 5 7:23:52 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: sitting next to purr listening to ~CC~...agreeing thus far...

Wed Apr 5 7:24:10 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: listening intently..

Wed Apr 5 7:24:33 2000
~Lady Precious Rose~: ~Listening~

Wed Apr 5 7:24:43 2000
~*sha'roze*~{LPR}FG_[KI]: smiling softly with Mistress ~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~ words

Wed Apr 5 7:24:56 2000
~*~lingering purr~*~: ~sitting next to the light, listening and nodding in agreement~

Wed Apr 5 7:25:04 2000
~katiana~: listening quietly...

Wed Apr 5 7:25:17 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: A couple weeks ago we had a guest speaker here . . Lady D from PEP Atlanta . . I was hoping that she would make it again tonight . . .

at any rate, our discussion then was on classic european style training . . and when asked how many other styles there were . . she mentioned Old Guard as well as Gorean . . . I almost dropped my non-existant dentures . . .

Wed Apr 5 7:25:58 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: ~biting back a chuckle as she continues to listen to Mistress~CC~~

Wed Apr 5 7:26:21 2000
~*sha'roze*~{LPR}FG_[KI]: giggling

Wed Apr 5 7:26:27 2000
~Lady Precious Rose~: ~Softly Chuckling at ~C-C~'s comment on dentures~~

Wed Apr 5 7:26:36 2000
Damian_Bloodstar: Listens quietly, as My hands run through the soft hair of My slaves kneeling beside Me.....

Wed Apr 5 7:27:13 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: I had always looked at Gor and BDSM as a dichotomy and can frankly say that I was far from accepting of it.

Wed Apr 5 7:27:16 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: ~CC~...not to interupt You...but are W/we discussing Gor as a vt lifestyle or an rt one?

Wed Apr 5 7:27:23 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: smiling softly to herself as she listens.

Wed Apr 5 7:27:38 2000
Harpoon: Gorean IS a part of BDSM.....

Wed Apr 5 7:27:55 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: ~the softest of whimpers escapes her lips, her eyes closing momentarily as she revels in His affections, forcing herself to pay closer attention to the discussion, she straightens her kneel and reopens wild green eyes, looking once more to the Mistress~CC~~

Wed Apr 5 7:28:11 2000
*~rheinnon~*~{Gunfighter}~: ~forming my thoughts for comment~

Wed Apr 5 7:28:17 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: over the past few years I have "played" Gor . . and not really likened it at all to the r/t BDSM that I know . . .

however . . . *waiting for a shoe to drop*

Wed Apr 5 7:28:21 2000
Harpoon: The trick is, the term "BDSM" encompasses a LOT more than many people realize.

Wed Apr 5 7:28:47 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: correction....
BDSM is a part of Gor

Wed Apr 5 7:29:12 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: eyes wide as she waits..

Wed Apr 5 7:29:33 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: the roleplaying of Gor includes ASPECTS of BDSM....but that doesn't make it BDSM....

Wed Apr 5 7:29:36 2000
~*sha'roze*~{LPR}FG_[KI]: Some would say and believe that Gor is another step past BDSM and does include BDSM

Wed Apr 5 7:29:42 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: ~smacking her hand over her mouth, looking anxiously to her Master, pleading, begging forgiveness with her eyes~

please forgive a girl Master, she did not mean to speak without permission....

Wed Apr 5 7:29:43 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: I was taught safe, sane, and consensual . . . the little I knew of Gor hardly fit those categories . . . so summarily I sat it by the wayside as an offshoot of edge role players

Wed Apr 5 7:29:57 2000
~Lady Precious Rose~: ~Soft Smile~
For Me, I feel it's the other way around Harpoon.. BDSM is a part of Gor. Neither is so much of an Improvement on the other, but each has different "Kinks" to them though many similar ones as well.

Wed Apr 5 7:30:17 2000
~katiana~:
~nodding softly in agreement with ra'~

Wed Apr 5 7:30:22 2000
Harpoon: Ummmmm.... That's up to interperetation. =)

Wed Apr 5 7:30:46 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: rolls my eyes~...BDSM was around LONG before the SCIENCE FICTION Author wrote the stories....

Wed Apr 5 7:31:09 2000
*~rheinnon~*~{Gunfighter}~: I believe that Gorean philosophy and BDSM are two separate ways of life. I've spoken with lifestyle Goreans over the past few months some of them practice some BDSM, most didn't. Those that did stated that their participation in BDSM didn't make them Gorean nor did it make them less Gorean. Like playing tennis doesn't make one any more or less Gorean.

All stated that there are elements of D/s within the Gorean lifestyle, but that the Master/slave relationship was only a very small part of the way they live their lives.

Wed Apr 5 7:33:52 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: ~knowing that to allow herself to step out of her personna for even the night for discussion would to her make her less than what she's capable of being, she turns a pleading look to her Master~

may ra'naa please speak freely to include herself in the conversation?

Wed Apr 5 7:33:53 2000
Harpoon: Well in My opinion, and experience, the term BDSM in the real life community tends to extend to cover a WIDE range of kinks beyond bondage, domination/dominance, submission/sadism and masochism. In My experience, Gor has been classified under both Dominance and submission and S+M play...

That's My experience though, from literature (on-line and physical paper books on the subject) and lifestyle groups...

Wed Apr 5 7:34:05 2000
~Lady Precious Rose~: ~Soft Smile~ On Gor.. for the most part it is SAFE ..SANE and CONSENTUAL.. VT more so than Aany think.

Wed Apr 5 7:34:12 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: Harpoon...then isn't everything up to interpretation Sir....no disrespect meant at all...but if it is that way...then isn't everything left to interpretation...if GOR is BDSM in rt...then some or a good portion of those beliefs have to be modified and excluded to be a liveable lifestyle....~s~

Wed Apr 5 7:35:29 2000
Damian_Bloodstar: yes ra'naa....you and nisaa wil be permitted to speak freely for sake of discussion....

Wed Apr 5 7:35:44 2000
*~rheinnon~*~{Gunfighter}~: I don't believe Gor to be a kink, I believe it to be a way of life. After speaking with Goreans, a lot of them said they get offended when their lifestyle is refered to as kink, since most of what being Gorean entails has little or nothing to do with sexuality.

Wed Apr 5 7:35:57 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: Thank You Master......

Wed Apr 5 7:36:10 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: I would ask something of those that find a way in Gorean style to answer a few questions? Is that acceptable?

Wed Apr 5 7:36:14 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: Master?.. leaning in, her voice soft...may nisaa also have permission to speak freely?

Wed Apr 5 7:36:48 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: Please, Mistress ~CC~, ask away!

Wed Apr 5 7:37:14 2000
~*~lingering purr~*~: i had a GORean Master once.....His view was i had no rights, anything and everything was only what He wanted.....to me, that was no better then being sold into slavery back before the Civil War......

my opinion and experience.....no offense meant......there are many aspects of Gor i liked, and some i truely hated.....

Wed Apr 5 7:37:37 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: So..again..are W/we talking VT or RT here?....on Gor...there are aliens...there are no safe words...there are assassinations and the such...this is neither safe sane nor consensual....so who here is an A/alien?....

Wed Apr 5 7:37:47 2000
Damian_Bloodstar: yes nisaa......of course....

Wed Apr 5 7:38:18 2000
~*sha'roze*~{LPR}FG_[KI]: Nodding, ready to answer as best she' can

Wed Apr 5 7:38:23 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: Thank You Master..smiles

nisaa just wanted to make one point, without the intent of offending A/any, because this may be seen as a small matter...but from what nisaa has seen, just in these past few minutes, is interesting...Gorean slaves, for the most part, show respect to A/all....and even a slight gesture of 'rolling ones eyes' reflect badly, not upon the slave, but upon the Master..a Gorean slave will know, in her heart..that any petty gesture, that even the slightest dismissal of respect will make her Master look bad.

Wed Apr 5 7:38:33 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: But the difference being, lingering purr....is that those of us who practice the Gorean lifestyle CHOOSE to give up all our rights as slave.......

Wed Apr 5 7:39:12 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: rheinnon...i agree...and i live this rt as well...it is NOT a 'kink' for me as well...

greetings to those entering...~ss~

Wed Apr 5 7:39:15 2000
Harpoon: Oopsies, slipped a PM.

Oh, and as I recall, Gor didn't exsist before the 1960's....

Just food for thought. The infamous Marquis de Sade after which Sadism is named did his thing LONG before Gor.

Gor is a kink, just like foot fetishes and diaper wearing and floggings...

I think it needs to be understood that there isn't a competition between Gor and BDSM because in many respects, they're the same thing, just like there isn't a competition between cross-dressing and BDSM. In the lifestyle, in the BDSM community, cross-dressing is a PART of BDSM, it's considered a kink and lumped into the same "catagory" as all the other things BDSM stands for.

Wed Apr 5 7:39:33 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: it is lingering purr...you can CHOOSE to NOT visit those realms on V/T Gor which allow Kills and Captures.....you can CHOOSE to go to a safer realm....

Wed Apr 5 7:39:58 2000
~Lady Precious Rose~: ~Soft Smile~ Ask away ~C-C~...

And for the record.. I'm a BDSM Mistress in RT and VT. My girl sha' is My RT slave as well as My VT slave. Gor is something Wwe began to explore nearly 2 years ago because "regular BDSM" didn't give enough to make things between Uus as Wwe wished it. It was another level for Uus to travel to and learn.

Wed Apr 5 7:40:04 2000
*~rheinnon~*~{Gunfighter}~: Lifestyle Goreans separate the fiction from the philosophy written by John Norman in his books. They apply the philosphies of honor, truth, loyalty, integrity, appreciation of beauty, love of life, brotherhood, and natural order to their lives.

Wed Apr 5 7:41:47 2000
~*~lingering purr~*~: ra'naa, did i ever once say i went to Gor?

Wed Apr 5 7:41:50 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: In what ways would you say that Gorean philosophy mirrors that of "regular" bdsm *laughing softly as that is about as varied as the people that participate in it*

What I am getting at here is that there are basic similarities . . . on that which common ground may be found.

and the light . . . of course Gorean books and vt have monsters, aliens, etc . . take out the obvious and what do you have . . . a very male dominated society that is very D/s, no?

Wed Apr 5 7:42:09 2000
*~rheinnon~*~{Gunfighter}~: I disagree Harpoon, even the books stated that on the planet Gor a slave would seldom encounter a sadistic Master. Whippings, cagings, and other forms of punishment were used for the purpose of training and diciplining slaves.

Wed Apr 5 7:42:22 2000
ra'naa{KI}FG: oh, yes nisaa....a gorean pleasure slave is VERY sensual/sexual....Gorean Men want that in Their women,.......

Wed Apr 5 7:42:57 2000
Damian_Bloodstar: ~Lifestyle Goreans seperate the fiction from the philosophy written by John Norman in his books. They apply the philosphies of honor, truth, loyalty, integrity, appreciation of beaulty, love of life, brotherhood, and natural order to their lives.~

Well said, rheinnon, thank you....

Wed Apr 5 7:43:25 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: flashing ra' a knowing grin

Wed Apr 5 7:45:23 2000
*~rheinnon~*~{Gunfighter}~: nisaa, I'm aware that Gorean slaves are very sexual people. I'm not disputing that. I was stating that we are only looking at one aspect of the Gorean lifestyle, the Master slave relationship, and that's only a small part of the whole picture.~smiles~

Wed Apr 5 7:45:29 2000
~*~the light{MDS}~*~: sha'rose...thank you..i appreciate the answer...but i disagree with you saying that an Master/Mistress knows better their submissive/slave then the rt P/partner does...

please answer my question, ~CC~...are W/we talking vt or rt?....

if this is vt..then fine....everything is ok...do as Y/you wish...but if W/we are speaking of strictly rt here....i have many questions and comments to make....

and i and Thee MARQUIS DE SADE are rt...He knows me better then i know myself..and W/we ALWAYS have a safeword...which is sane and safe....

Wed Apr 5 7:45:58 2000
christy/Harley_pet: still sitting and listening.....*s*

Wed Apr 5 7:46:19 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: very true rheinnon..smiles softly

Wed Apr 5 7:46:29 2000
Harpoon: rheinnon>>What do you think I do with My submissive in real life?

Yes, My toys can be used for sexual play, but the leather flogger I have is also considered an illegal weapon in many states.... My riding crop is QUITE common in equestrian circles and EVERYONE has clothespins in their house, kinky or not.

There are a LOT of loving people in BDSM. There are a lot of people in BDSM who do not use "physical play" in their relationships. They're still Dominant/submissive, but they don't use toys....

Wed Apr 5 7:46:35 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: I have met some r/t Gorean Masters . . . and find them intriguing as well as very much honorable . . . though I STILL did not find it compatible w/the bdsm that I knew . . .

what IS interesting the one thing that I found most "irritating" about Gor was seldom done in the books and that was speaking in third person . . .

Wed Apr 5 7:46:39 2000
~*bambi*~: if He knows you so well apryl...why would you need a safe word?

Wed Apr 5 7:46:42 2000
~*~baileyi~*~: quietly listening

Wed Apr 5 7:46:53 2000
Damian_Bloodstar: Cyberotica Chrysalis.......

Do BDSM Masters/Mistresses, train their slaves?
teach them behaviors?
Punish and discipline when it is necessary?
and ~Love~ Their slaves when They are pleased with them?....

(And by ~Love~ them, I mean in sexually)

Wed Apr 5 7:47:23 2000
*~rheinnon~*~{Gunfighter}~: ~is glad I finally found a way to phrase what I was trying to say~

~grins~

Wed Apr 5 7:48:41 2000
~*nisaa{Damian}FG*~: Mistress Chrysalis, nisaa agrees with You..but she also thinks, that the term Gorean Master is a difficult one, because every Master will be different, and have a different relationship with His Gorean slave...He will see her for what she is, slave..nothing more and nothing less...but a girl thinks, that each Master and slave have to find T/their own terms of the relationship..whether that relates to Gor or not, it is consentual...

Wed Apr 5 7:48:46 2000
Darc Knight: *listening and soaking in the conversation*

Wed Apr 5 7:48:51 2000
Braden: There is really no difference in the D/s part of the Gorean relationship than that of BDSSM. Gor is fantasy the location of the place makes it so. But when The Domme and the sun go into the wagon or bedroom the D/s relationship is no different for Gor than it is for BDSM

Wed Apr 5 7:48:59 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: I think in theory, it may not matter, the light, . . . as long as we are speaking philosphically . . . v/t, r/t, bdsm, or Gor . . . theory is theory . . . though I still prefer to deal w/ r/t . . but then, for some, their commitment merely makes them "distance challenged" in the same way that you and MDS were before you were able to get together . . you were not "together" but to me I thought you were very "rt"

Gor and BDSM ~ Continued ~ Page 2 ~

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