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BDSM, The Law, & You
Guest Speaker: LC (a.k.a. "Lord Cuff")
Dungeon Chat is held Wednesday Evenings 9-11 EST in the Dungeon @ Fantassia's Palace.
All are welcome with the understanding that we all have the right to disagree without being disagreeable.
(following text has been edited ~ foregoing greetings, etc.)
First segment will be a cut-and-paste of pre-submitted questions followed by an open forum.
Wed Mar 29 7:09:20 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: Topic: BDSM, the Law & You ~ please route questions for the Q&A portion to me in pm ~ thanX
Wed Mar 29 7:16:44 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: Thank you, LC, for coming and for your time. There are some of us that really wish to be informed . . as well as be able to feel somewhat safe in the things that we do within the lifestyle.
Our lifestyle is one of choice and is often misunderstood by many. It is also up to us to be aware of your rights as well as what the law says. We know that varies by city, state and country . . . so the questions pre-submitted are being answered with that in mind. It is up to you to take that information and check for yourself what the law says in your area.
Wed Mar 29 7:19:41 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: So . . . here we go w/ the pre-done questions
Wed Mar 29 7:20:37 2000
LC: Usually it is OK but... always some buts... written is better just as a matter of evidence if there should be any dispute between the parties, or, gawd forbid, something goes very, very wrong. Like a partner dies of a heart attack during the scene and you have to explain to the police that you were beating them with consent.
Wed Mar 29 7:21:17 2000
LC: Further, note that consent to what would otherwise be a criminal assault and battery may not be legally possible. In England not too long ago, a bunch of BDSMers were being prosecuted criminally for assault and battery after a police raid of the club. Both the Tops and the bottoms were charged under the theory that you would have to be crazy to agree to such beatings (negating the consent) and crazier or criminal to agree to beat someone even if they consented. Some US states are like this, too, when it comes to sexual battery, especially in light of battered women's statutes. But most decided in the 1920's that you could consent, such as for a boxing match or taking the risk of injury playing football. The Oregon State Supreme Court just decided a case involving a BDSM marriage and the use of it against the Dom husband under the battered women's statute. The court held that evidence of consent would be allowed and the facts were very good for us as a community since the only evidence of 'abuse' was a couple of regular BDSM scenes and a written contract.
Wed Mar 29 7:22:34 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: (I am personally interested in seeing that Oregon case . . . just to see how it went and what they were able to factor into it.)
Wed Mar 29 7:25:27 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: Moving along to question 2:
Wed Mar 29 7:26:50 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
Wed Mar 29 7:27:09 2000
LC: Both types are often used. There are form agreements for a 'date', including a specific time to begin and end the 'date', as well as ones for life or for a year, whatever, floating around the web. I personally don't use a 'date' one with rare exception but then I usually have a witness to the consent and play either with my contractual collared slaves or in a public dungeon where I am known. Otherwise I would use a 'date' one, too. I have always used written slave contracts since 1986 but remember they are largely non-binding legally except as evidence of consent and, LOL, an opportunity to put some real nasty things in writing... a turn-on by itself for many.
Wed Mar 29 7:29:30 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: Some sample contracts
Wed Mar 29 7:30:26 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
4. If a Sadist is invited to mete out a beating, and at a later date, the recipient decides to press charges for abuse, how vulnerable is the Sadist to prosecution?
Wed Mar 29 7:31:26 2000
LC: The 'Drummer boy' incident in SF recently shows that you can be very vulnerable. Fortunately, the Top involved had many friends to vouch for him and, well, it was SanFran Police. A little more understanding than most police depts. There will never be a perfect law system to prevent someone from falsely charging you with a crime ever. All we can do is realize that danger and try to cover ourselves by being careful who we play with, having written or witnessed consent and doing a lot of praying... life is a risk and BDSM is no exception. Although I still contend that getting out and driving on the public streets to a BDSM event is more dangerous than anything else we do when you get there.
Wed Mar 29 7:32:00 2000
LC: I can send you the full cite later. I'm not in my office. The facts were a married couple in a D/s relationship of several years with a written contract. Apparently, the wife chose to file for a protective order under the so-called battered women statute and the trial court refused to hear evidence that events complained of by her may have been consensual under their lifestyle, insisting that she could not legally consent. The State's Supreme Court held that, as in sports, a person may give consent to what would otherwise be an illegal assault and battery, then sent the case back to the trial judge to hear evidence on the issue of consent.
Wed Mar 29 7:32:13 2000
LES IS MORE(m): HELLO
catching up on the reading
I checked some time ago and found that legally if the Pros it cuter and the jude was really out to get the BDSMer
the contract can be used as evidence of conspiracy to commit a crime
I.E. sodomy assault battery etc
Wed Mar 29 7:34:21 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: Thank you LC . . I will put the reference on the site later!
Glad that the technical difficulties didn't keep you away!
Wed Mar 29 7:36:25 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: Topic: BDSM, the Law & You ~ please route questions for the Q&A portion to me in pm ~ thanX
Wed Mar 29 7:37:31 2000
LC: That's a real judgment call. I believe that the level of risk must be considered but also remember uninformed consent is clearly no consent at all. A blanket consent to mild bondage or spanking is one thing, a blanket consent to do whatever you're told and then use that to justify 'barebacking' or needle play, branding, whatever, would be silly to expect that it was real consent, legally or not. The wise Dom works details into the negotiation and checks for continuing consent in the scene. Checking, without breaking the headspace, for that continuing consent is an art form but it can be done.
Wed Mar 29 7:38:59 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
Wed Mar 29 7:39:38 2000
LC: This depends on the state. Remember, our legal system is coming from a background in which it was immoral, and usually illegal, to engage in any sex act AT ALL, but for married people engaged in face to face genital intercourse and then for the sole purpose of having a baby. Sex for fun was usually banned. Until 1958, many states outlawed contraceptives like condoms, until the US Supreme Court 'discovered' the Right of Privacy, latter used to legalized abortion.
It is still illegal in 18 states to engage in sodomy... most of those, even if you are married. Fornication, unmarried genital intercourse, is illegal even for adults in several dozen states, as is adultery, criminally! Up until 1969, almost all states had such laws on fornication, sodomy, adultery and other 'unnatural' sex acts such as doggie-style or woman on top genital intercourse! And we still have many, many states with laws against the sale and use of dildos! We've come a long way baby, but we aren't there yet. There are cases pending all over on these things. Georgia just threw out the 150-year-old anti-sodomy law last year and Texas is in the middle of the fight right now. Cases on the sale and use of dildos are pending in both those states and in Alabama, where a Federal judge has sided with the pro-dildo (what a concept) crowd.
Wed Mar 29 7:40:31 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: Cheating JUST a bit . . . LC . . .I absolutely LOVE this one!! *weg*
Wed Mar 29 7:40:54 2000
LC: I recommend it... one of the advantages of being in a community of pervs is that you can at least find witnesses, LOL.
Wed Mar 29 7:41:04 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
Wed Mar 29 7:42:04 2000
LC: Yes, in some states, See no. 1
Wed Mar 29 7:42:45 2000
LC: Still some tech probelms. As for prosecutors and conspiracies from having a written contract, unlikely but it varies from state to state on the crimes mentioned. They would need actual proof of the crime. And for Assault and battery, consent is a defense in most states but sodomy is still a crime in some 19 states. Talking about it, even in a contract, is not a crime generally speaking.
Wed Mar 29 7:42:48 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
Wed Mar 29 7:44:48 2000
LC: There is no all inclusive such definition. Actually, the only ones in the law have nothing to do with BDSM, only animal sports like bullfighting and cock fights...chickens, silly!
Wed Mar 29 7:43:00 2000
Rifleman: *chuckles* woman on top, now that is an "unnatural act"
sorry, I will keep My comments to myself from this point on.
Can you just imagine what a court reporter must be thinking during closing arguments on some of these cases
Wed Mar 29 7:44:08 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: LC, do You happen to have a listing of the 19 states? That might be helpful . . though I really truly hope not to have ALL of the public in my bedroom to check it out!
Wed Mar 29 7:44:50 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
Wed Mar 29 7:45:10 2000
LC: Bondage without consent or authority (such as a police arrest) is the crime of false imprisonment in most states. Even holding someone down or transporting them across the room, in some states like Georgia, without consent, for the express purpose of committing a felony, is kidnapping.... and sodomy or genital intercourse without consent is a felony most everywhere so... yes, non-consensual bondage is very serious.
Wed Mar 29 7:45:23 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
Wed Mar 29 7:46:13 2000
LC: I call it fantasy rape, to make clear that it is a consensual thing. It has many emotional risks but legally the risks are the same as other items above, just that it may be a felony, a very serious crime, where assault and battery are usually only misdemeanors, less serious, a year in jail, LOL, only.
Wed Mar 29 7:45:59 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
>Wed Mar 29 7:46:21 2000
LC: I'm not aware of any specific laws on that other than the few states with broad 'unnatural' sex acts statutes and those are rarely enforced. But I'll bet somewhere some perv-minded puritan in some state legislature proposed outlawing it and some puritanical cop would bust you for it.
Wed Mar 29 7:46:56 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~:
Wed Mar 29 7:47:55 2000
LC: A "crime" is an act against the state whether there is a victim or not. Thus, a victim, or a bystander, is merely a witness to the crime against the state and may even commit a crime themselves if they witness a crime and don't report it. Thus any witness may report and press the prosecution of crimes. The burden of proof for a criminal conviction is almost always sufficient evidence that would convince a lawful jury of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt... that is supposed to be a very, very high burden... all too often taken too lightly.
Wed Mar 29 7:48:21 2000
LC: Yes, on the anti-sodomy states. I don't have it with me but there is a map on my webzine at HickorySwitch. I'll send a list later. I'm just glad my state, Georgia, came off the list last Nov. year ago in a decision that, being from a conservative state, has impact on other state's courts.
Wed Mar 29 7:48:29 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: and lastly . . .
Wed Mar 29 7:49:46 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: *grins at LC* Wasn't there a party at PEP when that passed??? Think it was followed up by the medical play . . . *chuckling at that fantasy play*
Wed Mar 29 7:50:06 2000
LC: Yes, usually. There are privacy considerations that may limit it such as when some one 'finds' such photos but the law usually presumes that, if one poses for such photos or gives copies to others, they are giving consent to their use in any manner the photographer or lawful recipient chooses, and, further, in a police investigation, lawfully obtained photos can be used for various purposes in the prosecution of any crime depicted or any evidence of a crime so depicted, including state of mind and 'immoral' tendencies in a completely different crime or action. Such as photos of mom and dad privately playing being used to take kids away from them.
Wed Mar 29 7:50:50 2000
~Cyberotica-Chrysalis~: That winds up the pre-submitted questions . . .I have one question waiting in the wings . . so if any of you have any more . . .Please slip them to me now.
BDSM, The Law, & You ~ Continued ~ Page 2 ~
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