The main problems are the feeling of being let down and the loss of feeling in the private parts, while sex isn't as interesting as before he was a woman. The loss of feeling is due to the nerves shrinking after the operation because of the fear of losing the penis. Plus men are in it for the sexuality of it, not because they really want to be women.

Men should realise that women do not like sex as much because they don't feel it as much. Maybe they should wait for medicine that makes sex-change easier without having to go through a sex-change operation and the disappointment of not being able to change back.

Already transsexuals are being victimised in so many ways – why do this to make their lives even more miserable. If they can afford it and want to do it – let them do so. If they are Singaporeans how can the hospitals turn them away? – they are our people!

Indirectly, the sex-change procedure is a life saving operation. If you think about the high suicide rates of about 50% in the transgendered community, and the fact that many, many transgendered people actually live, hoping that they will one day eventually save up enough money to undergo this operation to finally be who they really are physically.

Obviously, having to go abroad to have this surgery just makes things a whole lot harder for the already marginalized GLBT society of Singapore. It is not only more expensive; now, they have to do it in some foreign land, away from the familiarity of home. I don't know about everyone else, but I quite trust the medical staff in Singapore, despite the them shutting down the Gender Identity Clinic.

Transgendered folks all over the world have to deal with many tough issues, for some less fortunate ones, they get thrown out of their homes when they tell their families, others face discrimination at work. What about dealing with the strange stares and unkind remarks? The voice of the GLBT society has been silenced here in Singapore, where most folks just sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. But to just take away this "life-giving" surgery? That I think is a very nasty move.

But, if according to the professionals involved, but more importantly to the (transgedered) individuals involved, if this need be then this just need be - at least for the majority as Kai.C indicated.

Yet never was the (supposedly) conservative majority of Singaporeans of 1971 consulted when this controversial surgery came into legal force.

Still, in 1999 you, O Esteemed Senior Minister, told the whole world that the rights of the gay minority in Singapore lay in the hands of the (again, conservative) majority.

Were the Chinese majority of Singapore ever consulted before it was deemed that minority race Singaporeans were humans before they got entitled to human rights?

Doesn't all this smack of 'Rule of Man' rather than the claimed 'Rule of Law'?

i, myself has lost hope of my own country, malaysia.. in terms of getting treatment and identity and acceptance. i turn to singapore for hope... hope for a change.. hope for a beginning of a new life. but it's now all back to square one.. even if i ever be a sg citizen.

it's a disappointment indeed dat after 30 years of offering such treatment for the trans community, de authorities still do not understand de essential need of ppl of the trans community. from the outlook of things, it may seem dat this surgery is not neccessary and having go without it will not be life-treatening. but there are many other factors to look at. someone whom is suffering (i'm using the word "suffer" because it is indeed painful) from Gender Dsyphoria usually face depression and dat may affect their mental stability. mental stability is crucial in one's wellbeing and shd b taken care of. SRS sole purpose is not to make one "look" good like most cosmetic surgeries are.

like someone said, de trans community are already facing enough problems of with their "selves", de discrimination from de society, de rejection of families and friends.. one has to pinch every cent they have to save up for the surgery locally one fine day. now, one has to pinch every cent "for yearsss" to save up for de surgery abraod, which cost a bomb.. in some countries, de cost of some surgeries can go up as high as 6 figures (US dollars, mind you). for some trans, getting it in abroad is totally out of the question.. not at all in consideration. so is someone trying to tell me dat those dat can't afford to do it abroad might as well just live with it?

Just look at the most recent case: Singaporeans are not hungry enough. The first governmental response to it was by Lim Boon Heng, who said that we needed to 'upgrade our skills'. Nothing wrong in that because we do. And nothing wrong that it is the NTUC chief who said that - it's up his alley.

But any more follow up? NO.

The Singapore government is not capable of treating its own citizens as full human beings. They are very good at treating Caucasian foreigners with the highest of respect, even when they commit crimes such as having sex in public toilets in Orchard Towers. But they are not too hot about non-Caucasian foreigners nor their own citizens - their attitudes towards locals apply here.

No wonder there are so many Sarong Party Girls around. They become 'legit' because they are only being obedient to a National Cause of Trying to Boost the Population Wat and to some even the Intelligent Quotient Leh. You know they being the foreign talents and all. How sad for Singaporeans being a 2nd Class wherever they go, especially in The Tiny Red Dot.

How??? ( Singlish ) Go marry a Ang-Mo lor!! or Be Mighty Proud of Your Heritage. Remember the ethnic strife in Oldham when you have that Pan-Asian Baby. They are only good in Singapore anywhere else they will be weird and not acceptable. Oh! One more thing. Dont let marrying an Ang Mo go to your head, you are still the same even with that accent, and whatever lah. You know some people believe too much of Osmosis.

I sincerely hope that more transgendered individuals and groups will step forth (at least online) to voice their views and hopefully, bring the attention of the authorities to the community, esp. if they (Authorities) think that they can let this issue pass by unchallenged totally.

[enuffy] mentioned that the conservative majority was not consulted for the legalising of transgender surgery in S'pore.

Transgender surgery aims to surgically and medically relieve transgender people from the heavy burden of being trapped in bodies of the sex that they cannot identify with. There are no ethical dilemmas here to warrant a referendum with the conservative majority. It could be said that for every successful transgender person, there is one less gay or lesbian. Both the transgender and moral society are happy and relieved with the final outcome of the surgery.

It is similar to cosmetic surgeries such as breast augmentation, rhinoplasties, etc, which do not have any ethical dilemmas even though they too transform physically the patients who undergo them.

The Senior Minister was absolutely right to have said that the rights of the gay minority lay in the hands of the conservative majority. What he said was democratic and just.

[enuffy]'s tendency to draw parallels with and strength from the minority races whenever he raises gay issues, is irrational and devious. (He had done so in the ''Feeling Singaporean: is it so hard ?'' discussion and was rebutted point-by-point by [dsuen] completely.)

The minority races such as the Malay/Muslims, the Indians and the Eurasians are actually part of the conservative majority when it comes to the rejection of homosexuality. They are together with the majority Chinese people in condemning and shunning homosexuality as unnatural and perverse.

It is so insulting for the Malay/Muslims, Indians and the Eurasians to be included together in the same boat as the homosexuals when it comes to the issue of human rights. Is [enuffy] somehow insinuating that the Malay, Indian and Eurasian minorities are predominantly homosexual in character?

It is not surprising that [enuffy] feels as though he is being treated as less than human. I'll bet jailed rapists, paedophiles, necrophiliacs and bestials share his sentiments too. But he has conveniently forgotten that just like rapists, paedophliacs, necrophiliacs and bestials, homosexuals practise sex that is no less perverse and criminal in the eyes of the law.

The crux of the matter is not that homosexuals are just people with different sexual practices. They have unnatural and perverse sex, something repugnant, immoral and unhealthy for good society. That's why laws were set up to punish culprits guilty of homosexual sex.

dsuen - 2:44pm April 17, 2001 Spore time (72.)

Exposing [enuffy]'s So-Called ''Truths''

Who's a neo-Nazi? Morally upright people who are repulsed by homosexuality are all neo-Nazis? This is just what faggot activists want to scare mainstream people into believing. They want you to think that if you don't support them, you are a neo-Nazi ---- anyone who does not have wool pulled over their eyes could have told you that.

Let's decode some of the words used here:

''Do the rights of Eurasian, Indian and Malay S'poreans hinge on the approval of the Chinese majority?'' ---- a very racially provocative statement that warranted an Eyeball Admin warning. [enuffy] is trying to stir up racial disharmony in his bid to get support for his sexual perversion --- homosexuality. The truth is that the Malay, Indian and Eurasian S'poreans too, from part of the moral majority mainstream S'poreans who are against homosexuality.

In the realm of morality, the only minorities are not those distinguished by race, but those distinguished by their sexual perversions, in this case, the homosexuals form the perverted minority --- not the Malays, not the Indians, not the Eurasians.

Sorry, [enuffy] lousy try at fanning up racial disharmony to support your perversion. They too are with the majority Chinese in being against the proliferation of faggots in S'porean society. If I'm not wrong, they are even more socially conservative than the Chinese are; seeing that most of the faggot activists are Chinese themselves.

Why is a claim that Buddhism and Hinduism being against homosexuality dubious? What DUBIOUS claims do you have for these two hallowed religions as condoning homosexuality? Please remember to remind any religious authority that homosexuality entails anal sex and see if the good Venerable or Guru wouldn't excuse himself to vomit out the vegetarian lunch he had just consumed before answering you, with his mind still recoiling in utter disgust from the idea of anal sex, that his religion, whether Buddhism or Hinduism, does not allow for such (puke again!) perverted practices.

I see that [enuffy] had not quoted and knows very well that Christianity and Islam do not condone homosexuality. This is admission by omission.

[francis.chua]'s quotation of the various Ministers and even the opposition politicians IS NOT a threat to use state machinery against dissenters like [enuffy]. This is another diversion by [enuffy].

[francis.chua]'s quotation was to tell everyone how little support [enuffy] has and how much resistance there is from both the government and even the opposition towards a sexual perversion such as homosexuality. Here we need to make a distinction between the fancy arguments and diversionary tactics put forward by [enuffy] against the substantial points put forward by [francis.chua].

Finally, ''Everybody'' --- as in people that count ---- the moral mainstream majority. Anal buggering faggots are considered as animals in human form in some circles.

It is even more telling when you consider that he used the example of Hitler to allude to our resistance against the acceptance of homosexuality. He quoted the extermination of a racial minority, the Jews, to hint darkly that mainstream denunciation of homosexuality could mean racial majority persecution of minorities. What humbug!

Homosexuality has nothing to do with race!! It is an abomination in which its rejection by society is in fact a rallying and unifying cry for all races in a society. Whether majority Chinese or minority Malays, Indians, Eurasians ------- all find abhorrence for this sexual perversion and all are united in moral indignation against the subversion of morality that faggot activists are attempting.

The full article at: LEADERSHIP U http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/labarbera.html

The Gay Youth Suicide Myth by Peter LaBarbera

(Peter LaBarbera, a former reporter for The Washington Times, is executive director of Accuracy in Academia, a Washington, D.C.-based group that monitors bias in higher education. He is also publisher of The Lambda Report on Homosexuality, a quarterly newspaper focusing on the activities of the homosexual rights movement. )

The rate of suicide has nearly tripled among young people since 1965. Efforts to discover the root causes of this epidemic of self-inflicted violence must be dispassionate and free of politics. However, homosexual activists have manipulated this national tragedy to promote their political agenda.

Voicing concern over suicide risk for ''gay youth'', homosexual activists are pushing pro-homosexual programs in the schools, which will invariably ensnare vulnerable teens who might otherwise have avoided the destructive homosexual lifestyle. Their diagnosis: gay youths need affirmation of their homosexuality in a ''homophobic'' world, or they may become suicidal. The proffered solution: affirmation programs that make gay youths comfortable with being homosexual and the rest of the student population comfortable with the concept of homosexuality. Once everyone accepts homosexuality as ''normal'' and ''natural'', gay youth will achieve high self-esteem and avoid suicidal behavior.

But this view is based on the aims and values of the gay activist movement, not on any solid scientific assessment. For starters, it ignores the possibility that homosexuality is a condition-apart from societal acceptance or nonacceptance-that often leads to unhealthy behavior, which leads to unhappiness.

The myth of a gay teen suicide epidemic is built upon a flimsy statistical foundation. Gibson, a homosexual social worker in San Francisco, uses statistics from mainly homosexual sources and then extrapolates them to the general youth population using the discredited Kinsey estimate of a 10 percent gay population.

A perusal of Gibson's report turns up numerous contradictions and statistical impossibilities. For example, he refers to one author who speculated in 1985 (in the gay newspaper, The Washington Blade) that as many as 3,000 gay youths kill themselves a year-a number that exceeds the total number of annual teen suicides by more than a thousand.

To reach his core conclusions on the high rate of homosexual suicides, Gibson points to assorted gay survey studies that claim homosexual youth are far more likely than their heterosexual counterparts to have considered or to have attempted suicide. These studies rely on surveys of troubled and often runaway youth. Generally, they have found a much higher rate (two to four times higher) of suicidal tendencies in their ''gay'' respondents compared with their ''straight'' respondents. Gibson then multiplies this higher rate by the disputed Kinsey figure of a 10 percent homosexual population to produce his figure that 30 percent of all youth suicides involve homosexual youth.

Problem #1: Small Percentage of Suicides Found Gay

Perhaps the most damaging blow to the gay teen suicide myth comes from the studies of completed suicides, in which nothing close to Gibson's 30 percent figure has been found.

Problem #2: Gibson Cites Gay Studies with Unrepresentative Samples

In what has become a defining characteristic of pro-gay scholarship (e.g., Simon LeVay's flawed study of brain structure), Gibson errs in supporting his thesis with data collected from institutions whose clientele do not represent the overall homosexual population.

Problem #3: Gibson's Supporting Studies Lack Control Groups

A critical error in the works used by Gibson to show a preponderance of gays among suicide attempters is their lack of a heterosexual control group to put their findings in context.

Problem #4: Gibson Is Too Simplistic, Neglecting Other Psychological Factors Behind Most Suicides

Gibson, like many other homosexual advocates, assumes that the cause of suicide in alleged gay youth is internalized ''homophobia.'' But, as Shaffer notes, the assumption that the ''humiliation, abuse and isolation'' experienced by gay adolescents leads to suicide ''would be at variance with what we usually see among suicides....Sheer adversity of life does not in itself seem to lead to suicide.''

Problem #5: Gibson Assumes a Permanent Homosexual ''Orientation'' Fixed at Birth

On page (3)-114 of his study, Gibson writes, ''A gay or lesbian adolescence is not just a phase the youth is going through.'' Although he asserts this as fact, it is nothing more than a judgment-and one that is contradicted by recent gay research. Gary Remafedi, a homosexual researcher at the University of Minnesota, recently published a study in the journal Pediatrics which found that students' confusion with regard to their ''sexual orientation'' decreased with age.

Problem #6: Gibson's Study Embraces Radical Homosexual Agenda

Beyond the shoddy methodology, Gibson's paper and his motives must be assessed within the context of his recommendations-several of which are sweeping in scope. Since he attributes the homosexual's anxiety and depression to a ''homophobic'' culture that forces gays into self-hatred, Gibson proposes to help the aggrieved homosexual by proposing that society offer ''positive'' reinforcement to his gayness.

Conclusion

"It could be said that for every successful transgender person, there is one less gay or lesbian. Both the transgender and moral society are happy and relieved with the final outcome of the surgery."

And it shows his complete misunderstanding of transgerdered folks. Assuming transgendered people do not undergo operation; for a guy trannie (i.e. male wanting to be female), the question of homosexuality will never crop up!

Why because for him, what he really wants is a STRAIGHT man! Even without operation, he wouldn't go for gay men because he is not gay. Neither would the vast majority of gay men fall for a trannie.

Transsexuals are not homosexuals and homosexuals are not transsexuals. Simply as that.

Also can we keep to the issue here? When has this become a (*yawn*) "haven't-I-read-it-all-before" attack on gays in Singapore? Moreover, Mr Chua's dogged and vicious opinions on gays send a shudder down my spine.

http://health.yahoo.com/health/diseases_and_conditions

/disease_feed_data/gender_identity_disorder/index1.html

Overview

Definition

Persistent feelings of gender discomfort and inappropriateness of anatomic sex.

Alternative names

transsexualism

Causes, incidence, and risk factors

People with gender identity disorder act and present themselves as members of the opposite sex. The disorder affects self-concept, the perception of an ideal partner, and the display of femininity or masculinity through mannerisms, behavior, and dress. These feelings persist for at least 2 years. Theories suggesting causes of this disorder are chromosomal abnormalities, hormonal imbalances, and defects in normal human bonding and child rearing. The disorder may occur in children or adults. It is a rare disorder.

Prevention

No prevention is known.

Symptoms

Children:

- express the desire to be the opposite sex - have disgust with their own genitals - believed as children that they will grow up to become the opposite sex - are rejected by their peer group, feel isolated - have depression - have anxiety

Adults:

- desire to live as a person of the opposite sex - wish to be rid of their own genitals - dress in a way that is typical of the opposite sex - have a sexual preference that may be heterosexual or homosexual - have depression - feel isolated - have anxiety

Either adults or children:

- withdrawal from social interaction - cross-dressing, clothing habits are typical of the opposite sex

Signs and tests

A history and psychological examination confirms the persistent desire to be the opposite sex.

Treatment

Individual and family counseling is recommended for children, and individual or couples therapy is recommended for adults. Sex reassignment through surgery and hormonal therapy is an option, but often severe problems persist after this form of treatment.

Prognosis

A better outcome is associated with the early diagnosis and treatment of this disorder.

Complications

- poor self concept - social isolation - emotional distress - depression or anxiety

Calling your health care provider

Hi, thanks for putting up so much info from experts to organisations to scientic articles. I bet they are neatly piled in your file with a mental institution within yourself.

You are pretty ignorant of putting too much pressure on yourself to maintain so called main-stream and righteous and "save-the-world" mentality.

I can anticipate this topic will be closed down again.

Projet Eyeball has the power to ban a user from mis-using the forum, yet it chose not to ban Moron FC. Reasons only the PE admin would know.

Moron FC is an ideal example of how freedom of speech can be used to achieve personal objectives, in the name of the moral and mainstream society.

First off, to MR Francis Chua. I can see that you have a very expansive collection of scientific reports which can substantiate your claim to almost every view you seek to express (which, unfortunately, is to express your disgust, hate and disdain). Maybe you cannot understand how people 'become' homoesexuals or transgendered, but I also wonder how YOU became a homophobic man. Was it a natural inclination? Did society (Or your upbringing, childhood etc) that made you this way? Or did all those scientific reports you indulge in prove that YOU are right? I do not want to be judgemental. I have no religious affliation (Pls do not use this to PROVE that I am immoral etc), but I do know that God (in this Christian sense) do tell humans not to be judgemental for no one is qualified to say who's truly right or wrong (pls don't take it as if I am commiting blasphemy or preaching to you... I ain't, just expressing a teaching of a faith). Everyone is entitled to his or her comments, remarks and yes, judgement, but to turn all this into a vicious tool to discriminate against anyone (Be it a minority group or individuals)? Do we really need to have more of this "I'm right, you are wrong (deviant, queer, sinful etc) therefore you don't deserve equal rights" in a world where this is a dominant factor in oppressive methods of persecution?

And... what is it with the excessive sprinkling of the taboo, offensive and discriminatory word "faggot"? Are we having a growth in supremacy ideas of certain individuals (for the sake of EVERYONE, may they not become a group)? This blatant disregard for the sensitivities of the gay community (and their allies ie. their significant others, friends and FAMILY incl. parents) can barely be tolerated. It's the equivalent of calling a black "nigger" and a Chinese "chink". Tho' these are examples of 2 ethnic discrimination, it contains the same amount of hate and contempt.

In this time and age, people might tend to rely on on science and research for the 'truths' of our world. But no matter how many scientific reports and survey there are on homoesexual and trangendered issues, there are still NO definitive breakthrough conclusion as of now. The one thing I can respect about such scientific studies is that researchers are now treating GLBT individuals not just as test subjects to satisfy the curiosities of the main population but mainly as human beings, people with heart, mind and souls.

Therefore, no matter how many scientific research anyone can summon to back up their case, no one can truly say THEY have the true version of the issue. But I personally believe that if one can take the first step to get to know someone who identify as a GLBT, then a clearer and better understanding can then be made.

There is little use of throwing up figures and statistics without first getting a human understanding of the issue. GLBT individuals can present a better story of themselves, if an individual can muster the courage, see through the discrimination and approach these people with good intentions, treating them with pride and dignity as equalled to any other human being. That is unless the individual has really no real intention to form a more balanced opinion of the community and choose to take a parochial stand on the community.

GLBT individuals are not threatening to society in the sense many might like to think (For what, I don't know), esp. here in Singapore. The community is not here to advocate a different lifestyle or fight for anything very extravagant, but is actually just trying to get some dignity and recognition, and of course, support in the very basic and human sense. They are not trying to challenge society in a confrontational way, neither are they seeking to upset indivduals.

Why does a transsexual have to go through this obstacle placed by NUH, just to receive treatment for an illness? Don't we have enough obstacles along the way to deal with, enough hurdles to jump over and enough 'road-blocks' to get around? Must we now add on another worry of saving a lot more money to have GRS performed overseas?

Being a transsexual myself, I've 'known' from a very young age that I was not in the correct body. Something was wrong and it was only when I started working and earning that I could start to explore the options of GRS. This whole process is not easy and definitely not something I'd choose to go through if I had a choice. But the truth is I do not have a choice.

I just spoke to a lovely lady last month, she too is a transsexual (MTF) and just had her GRS last year. She's in her mid-40s and is well-established in her career. She related to me her own personal experience, of how she was so depressed and on the verge of suicide. She was at a total lost initially, not recognising that she was suffering from Gender Dysphoria until after several visits to the psychiatrist. Luckily for her she had the financial means to go for GRS and had the support of her family, friends and colleagues. What about the many others who have not reached that level of financial stability, does it mean that we have to wait till we're in our mid-40s too before we can live in our intended gender? If NUH were to reopen their Gender Clinic, at least this financial burden will be lessened, and the trauma of going through GRS will be lessened with the support of family and friends in Singapore, rather than having it overseas.

I will not attempt to correct your misconception of trangenderism in spite of the information procured, suffice to say, your misuse of information only highlights your ignorance on the issue, which only affirms the inappropriateness of your presence in this forum.

Regardless of what transpires, the real crime of morality in this forum, is not homosexuality but the petty and snide gay bashing. So dsuen and Chua, do not attempt to stand on your moral high horses and smugly rain down your judgement or use this forum as a platform to launch your anal-retentive attacks.

Certainly, no one is forcing homosexuality down your throat or up your bunghole. The real problem about homosexuality is not about sexual orientation or sexual practices. The problem lies in the narrow and rigid pathways that make up the social psyche. Since no one is coercing you to bend-over in compromising positions, is your intense homophobia warranted?

Both of you, dsuen and Chua appear to possess some shred of righteousness in standing up for what you perceive to be an unjust statement against the ethnic minorities but where is that politically correct objectivity when it comes to issues of gender minorities?

Your degeneration and digression in to gay bashing merely reveals you to be the real scum that you both are and greatly punctures whatever credibility you try to enforce in your statements. Now, you have merely become an annoyance.

Sexual perversion? Apparently, sexual perversion is not limited to homosexual couples. Anal sex between homosexuals may be illegal but the same extends to heterosexual couples who indulge in fellatio or anal sex and I am certain you have broken one of those on at least one occasion or perhaps you have not been that lucky. Your persecution against these acts is clearly biased, reflecting your personal grouses against homosexuals.

Homosexuality is not a crime and it is an insult for all concerned to be placed on par with sex offenders like rapists and paedophiles. It would definitely be worth your while to consider the extent of the slanderous accusations in your own statements before you proceed to attack anyone else.

Unless you can suppress all your closeted homoerotic tendencies, I suggest you find somewhere else to blow off steam or whatever else it may be you wish to blow.

Its actions prove that Singapore has yet to attain the level of medical professionalism required to attain world-class medical standards. That while it may achieve varying successes in the field of research, its inability to rise above prevalent social taboos suggests professional ignorance and cowardice.

While it is one thing to be ill equipped to provide necessary medical treatment to patients, it is quite another to wilfully deprive patients of potentially life-altering medical options that have already long been established, as is the case of Gender Reassignment Surgery.

What NUH has done borders on sheer negligence and professional irresponsibility. Their discriminatory decision to withhold treatment for transsexuals breeches medical codes of ethics since medical facilities have an obligation to honour the moral responsibility it has to provide medical treatment. In this light, the classification of Gender Reassignment Surgery either as a cosmetic or as a life-saving procedure is irrelevant.

The state too has a responsibility to its citizens' mental and physical welfare and the MOH should therefore not hide behind a wall of indifference. Gender Identity Dysphoria (GID) is a psychological disorder that requires specific treatment and this treatment entails hormone therapy and various surgical procedures. Withholding such treatment is a violation of the basic rights of its citizens and should not be a matter of little bearing.

Evidence have been procured to show that what they say is false.

Change is possible in sexual orientation, it is an outright fraud to claim that 1/3 of American teens suicides are gay. Homosexuality is perverse and forbidden in Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. Anal sex is a crime punishable by law. Heterosexuality is nature's norm. Scientific research have supported the above claims.

Much have been debated in public, and as I recall, few subjects have been debated so vigorously, and from all angles.

In the end, it just expose homosexuality for what it is, and what a bunch of crooks gay activists the likes of [enuffy], are.

Let's not forget [enuffy]'s absurd, anarchic challenge to the Senior Minister and [enuffy]'s irrational and devious tendency to draw parallels with and strength from the minority races whenever he raises gay issues.

Let's not forget how the gay activists, attack and twist religions like Christianity and Buddhism to mislead ignorant parties, and cause damage to society.

Let's not forget how gay activists hide and deny evidence to the general public, that is contrary to their political values. Such as when change is possible in sexual orientation.

Let's not forget how gay activists will intentionally use fraud statistics to trick members of the mainstream public into their agenda. Such as using fraud statistics to show that 1/3 of American teens suicide are gay.

Let's also not forget how gay activists will, using all manner of illogic and intimidation, to force their scientifically unsubstantiated views onto the public. Such as personally attacking others who expose them for who and what they are.

To clarify matters, I do not think this forum was set up to handle the question of whether homosexuality is right/natural/perverse/deviant etc... the original topic of discussion is about transgender care in Singapore and the sex-change ops. Unfortunately, gung-ho 'self-righteous' individuals have used this as an avenue to spread their version of the 'TRUTH'. This discussion was meant to raise awareness of the hush-hush closure of transgender care in Singapore, so that transgendered persons (who face real-life threats of all sorts and discrimnation from bigoted individuals) can air their personal concerns regarding something considered taboo by mainsteam society through a safer avenue. This is also true for the allies, friends, significant others and family of these people. Unfortunately, even this opportunitiy has been usurped by people who are not keen to listen at all to the plight (yes, it is not exactly a very pleasant situation for transgendered people) of these people, who are not trying to go on an all out aggressive campaign, but who are just trying to inform the uninformed, and misinformed, with information of their own predictament which I dare say no one truly understands, unless he or she is/knows someone who is/is an ally of a transgendered person.

And to clarify this sweeping statement made by MR francis chua: I am not, and have never identified with being, a gay activist. I am not trying to launch a political campaign to push for affirmative action for gays to anyone, and have never contemplated doing so. I am not here to DEBATE with YOU, therefore I see no meaning in trying to engage in a 'discussion' with someone who is just going to assert himself over and over again with little or no consideration of viewpoints differing from his. If all you want is to WIN the argument, then go ahead and proclaim yourself winner, not because I am admitting defeat nor am I admitting I am wrong in my views, but because I see no point at this juncture which suggests that any progress can be made in this discussion (for example, if you are trying to talk some logic with a mad man, aren't you wasting your time and effort?)

One more thing to add, please refrain from the incivility of calling people who hold different views from you 'crooks'.

Let's not forget that by speaking out against the establishment, it does not mean that one is anarchic, but one may have genuine resentment against certain issues with the authorities. Unless you are a disbeliever in Free Speech of any extent.

Let's not forget that people in general (gay, straight) have used religion as a tool to mislead people for their own partisan aims which may have explicit or implicit detriments to society.

Let's not forget the mainstream society is made up of hetereosexual human beings and they do have the majority of the access and control to the release of information, and one can go as far as calling it hetereosexism. Therefore, how easy is it for the minority GLBT community to 'hide' research stating findings which will appeal to the majority of the society. Think about how easy it is for mainstream hetereosexual society to discard information by GLBT communities in that sense.

Let's not forget with even the most basic knowledge in statistics, one will know that crunching numbers and using them is highly susceptible to manipulation for whatever cause. It is known that stats have always been used to 'deceive', since it is highly open to interpretation. Therefore, whenever someone uses figures to illustrate a point, a discerning individual will always have to question its signifiance, be it for gay kids suicide rate, the annual economic growth of a country or the number of homophobic people in the nation.

Human law can be and is flawed (as proven by numerous atrocities committed by manupulating the judicial system), religious laws can also be flawed 'coz human beings can misinterpret or deliberately do so for their own partisan views. But one thing positive about the human mind is that (hopefully to the majority) if it is open enough, it will take into consideration the human factor and interest of every argument and hopefully, not be condemning and judgemental due to self-denial or ignorance.

In conclusion, I would like to state once again I am not pushing for political activism of any form. I am speaking as an individual who has aquaintances and friends who are gay or transgendered, and of course, a large number of hetereosexual friends. I agree that I may not be the definitive voice of this 'argument', but at least the one thing that I can be proud of is that I have personally acquainted myself with both camps.

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Is there less 'hate' when members of a religious group spews it towards gay men (only)?

Would Eyeball Admin respect that I believe in mutuality - mutually good or mutually bad?

In case everyone do not know what happened, [enuffy] wrote an offensive posting titled ''To The Motherf**ker Francis Chua'' (dated 06 Jun 2001 4:47 pm) which he then deleted when Eyeball Admin came up with the warning.

[enuffy] himself started the gay discussion, not me, with an absurd challenge to Senior Minister, and try to stir up racial disharmony. He, himself, spewed so much hatred in this forum, and not forumers like [dsuen] or me . That is why Eyeball Admin had to step in.

This is who [enuffy], the gay activist, and the many accounts name he held e.g. [wumei] and others, really is like. They are ever ready to do mainstream harm if they do not get what they want.

We should all expose and see them for who they are. They are just perverse and have bad character.

It could very well be that this particular surgeon had been enticed away by overseas hospitals because of the high demand for his transgender surgical skills there. A simple case of greener pastures overseas for his career. We all know how surgeons frequently leave S'porean hospitals for better prospects elsewhere.

I am sympathetic to transgender people who are willing to undergo the knife to realise their genders. Even the law recognises the new sex of the transgender person and accords him/her the full protection of the law. Transgender people can even enter into marriage ----- they are in practicality, heterosexual, if one doesn’t delve too deeply into the matter.

At least MTF transgenders have the good sense to create vaginas for themselves where there were none and avoid the absurd morbidity of anal sex. FTM transgenders are also better since they do away with dildoes, fingers, or whatever cylindrical appliance to have sex.

We all know who are the people who need censoring ------ foul-mouthed and anarchic [enuffy] who write postings with titles like “To the Motherf**ker Francis Chua” (tsk! tsk! tsk!), [wumei] who keeps calling anyone who has the good sense to be anti-anal sex as a “moralic moron”, etc. Who are the real morons, by the way? Surely they are those who keep writing in support of nauseous, revolting anal sex! These shameless faggots, indeed!

Thank you very much, [francis.chua], for carrying the torch ------ mainstream society is proud of you. You demonstrate to everyone that there is nothing to fear from anal buggering queers bent on foisting their perversion on good society.

-as quoted from the forum- "We should all expose and see them for who they are. They are just perverse and have bad character." "Thank goodness, our laws protect the moral mainstream from such people."

"These shameless faggots, indeed!" "anal buggering queers"

I know that Singapore DO NOT protect the RIGHTS of certain individuals ie. the GLBT, therefore, no one has a legal obligation to censor or warn these perpetrators of hate. However, I am appealing to the journalistic integrity of Project Eyeball and the rationality plus understanding of all the others to realize that just because it ain't illegal to discriminate against GLBT doesn't mean that we should allow such blatant taunting to be obscenely glorified, whether professionally or personally.

And to truly clarify matters for people who may have been misled by the ignorance-and-misinformation-posing-as-(scientific)truth, Transgendered people and Gays/Lesbians are DIFFERENT. Transgendered people identify themselves in a gender opposed to their birth sex (the cause of it has not been pinpointed, it could have been biological, or affected by upbringing), and they may either live in what they feel is right for them (if their environment allows), repress it (if the environment is hostile to their condition) or choose a combination of both. Whereas gays/lesbians are classified along these lines mainly due to their sexual orientation, and apart from the act of sex itself, it also entails the attraction of the physical, mind and emotional.

Contrary to what some bigoists might say, Transgendered people DO NOT change their sex JUST to escape the trappings of being gay, 'coz fundamentally, they do not see themselves as gay. They DO NOT undergo the ops just so that they can engage in acts of intimacy in their OWN bedrooms so that they can be APPROVED by 'moral crusaders'. Please do not dismiss a human being into such a creature with only a base desire to have sex just because he/she is different from you.

Maybe the truth is, by 'protecting' Singaporeans from information regarding GLBT issues here, we have unfortunately created a section of society which has a skewed and unsympathetic, hardline take on these people, who only perceive these GLBT as 'deviants' 'coz they only see them as creatures obsessed with sex, and not fellow human beings. Why the obsession with someone's very private life? Why is it that what goes on in one's bedroom offends (intrigues??) one so much? Are we saying if all GLBT DON'T come out and do whatever they like on their own, than they will be grudgingly accepted by society? Are people afraid to KNOW that there are issues and different people out there in society and would rather NOT see it? Are people feeling threatened by their own misconceptions? Are we so used to living in a sanctified and 'wholesome' nation that we no longer bear to take in any information about anything else? Is this what we mean by being too protected?

Go ahead and believe in fairy tales like Sodom and Gomorrah if you wish.

You only take the risk of being society's TRUE BLUE WEIRDOS.

But only psychos like the two of you would make the laep from that to approval of your views.

1) [enuffy] isn't merely speaking out against the establishment. He is throwing an absurd challenge to Senior Minister, and trying to stir up racial disharmony. On top of that, using fraud statistic to mislead the public. And he has done it one too many times. He has already been warned twice by Eyeball Admin for writing offensive postings. Such is the behavior of gay activists.

2) As can be seen in the above postings by [enuffy]. Up till now, despite being warned twice by Eyeball Admin, he still continue to denigrate our Senior Minister, make fun of Christianity, and calling us ''stupid fools'' and ''weirdos'' when he is the real stupid fool and true blue weirdo, since he support anal sex. Young readers, do not imitate [enuffy]'s shameless behavior. [Dsuen] is right to call him and his gang shameless faggots.

3) Anyone who use religion to mislead or cause harm to anybody, when exposed, will face the consequences. Likewise, gay activists have been twisting religions to make it appear that Christianity and Buddhism condone homosexuality, when they DO NOT. Therefore, now they have to face the consequences of their own action ------ the public exposure of their lies.

4) Information that claim that ''sexual orientation is fixed'', and ''1/3 of American teens suicides are gay'', have been circulating for many years by gay activists. Only until gay propaganda was investigated, did the truth emerged. That is, change is possible in sexual orientation and it is false that 1/3 of American teens suicides are gay. Therefore, gay activists have been lying all this while.

5) Gay activists use the language of victimology to induce guilt feelings and trick anyone into believing their perverse agenda. Anyone who disapproves of their criminal anal sexual behaviors are called ''homophobic'', anyone who speaks out against their lies are using ''language of hate''. All these are just part of their tactics to con ignorant people into their agenda. They have been attacking mainstream society, and yet dislike being called ''faggot'' and ''anal buggering queers'', labels which aptly describe their behaviour.

6) Unfortunately, [kai.c] has accused mainstream of not seeing the person in homosexuals. Mainstream society has always been kind to homosexuals. It it the revengeful, spiteful and bad character of the perverse gay activists who wilfully force the gay agenda on the mainstream society that action need to be taken or else it will be a sadder situation than now.

Don't respond to moronic statements - this will stop them from opening another battlefront here.

US President Jed Bartlett confronts a right-winging talk-show host, Jenna Jacobs(I won't mention parallels...):

----

US PREZ JED: Forgive me, Dr. Jacobs. Are you a M.D.?

Jenna: Ph.D.

Jed: A Ph.D.?

Jenna: Yes, sir.

Jed: In Psychology?

Jenna: No, Sir.

Jed: Theology?

Jenna: No.

Jed: Social work?

Jenna: I have a Ph.D. in English Literature.

Jed: I'm asking, 'cause on your show, people call in for advice and you go by the name of Dr. Jacobs on your show. And I didn't know if maybe your listeners were confused by that, and assumed you had advanced training in Psychology, Theology, or health care.

Jenna: I don't believe they are confused, no sir.

Jed: Good. I like your show. I like how you call homosexuality an abomination.

Jenna: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.

Jed: Yes, it does. Leviticus.

Jenna: 18:22

Jed: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. [small chuckles from the guests] She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, and always clears the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath, Exodus 35:2, clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important, 'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes us unclean, Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

Think about those questions, would you? One last thing, while you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tightass Club, in this building, when the President stands nobody sits.

[Jenna squirms in her seat but doesn't rise. We get a close up shot of Jed glaring meaningfully at her. She finally rises out of her seat] ----

[Extracts from The West Wing website]

Nevertheless, Team Bartlet is constantly consumed by the minutiae of high cultural warfare. Examples are legion, and multiply weekly. In a second-season episode, ''The Midterms,'' there's a high-handed showdown between Bartlet and one Dr. Jenna Jacobs a moralizing radio talk-show host clearly modeled on Dr. Laura Schlessinger at a White House reception for various radio eminences.

Quizzing her on the biblical injunction against homosexuality as ''an abomination,'' Bartlet takes her on a rapid-fire declamatory tour of the follies of biblical literalism, a punishing performance whose like has not been seen since the climax of Inherit the Wind: ''I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7 ... what would a good price be?''

Now, not only is this stacking the rhetorical deck heavily in Bartlet's favor (even Dr. Laura, bigoted though she can be, does not rest her castigation of homosexuality entirely on biblical literalism). It also provokes a rather enormous question:

Why is Bartlet expending such heavy artillery and so much precious time on humiliating a radio talk-show host?

And why is he unable to resist a final victory dance over her seated person and prostrated intellect especially by invoking the majesty of his own presidential eminence over the discredited authority of biblical tradition?

(''One last thing,'' he shouts. ''While you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building when the President stands, nobody sits.'')

The answer, of course, is that such displays which occur nearly every week in Bartlet's White House cost the Administration precisely nothing politically while ratcheting up its sense of cultural superiority exponentially.

[end of extracts]

On a related real-life event, Michael Portillo, a homosexual, is running for the leadership of Britain's Conservative Party.

Lord Tebbit and former prime ministers Margaret Thatcher and John Major believe that voters would never elect a confessed homosexual such as Mr Portillo to be Prime Minister. (ST, June 13, 2001)

This shows how little support homosexuality have among the general Britain public. Even top Tory leaders objected to a homosexual leading the party, and want a normal, family man, like Iain Duncan Smith to be the next party leader.

Sure, homosexual can change their orientation, but only in behaviour and identity, not their true sexuality.

For the same reasons why only a few hetero men can remain celibate for their entire life ,and remain clean, to serve their order, only a few homosexual will succeed to change.

It is just not natural for homosexual to become heteros.

Stupid people like Francis Chua has this silly fear that human population will become predominantly gay if we allow it to florish.