Q. Malcolm, I thought it was just hilarious that here are two RSC guys duking it out in the California desert.
A. Right.
Q. When you were at RSC, did you ever have any idea of the success you would achieve?
A. Oh, I had a total premonition. No, of course not.
Q. What was your dream?
A. Certainly it wasn't to be duking it out with Patrick Stewart on top of some bloody mountain in the Valley of Fire, that's for sure, but I don't know. It is strange the way life comes into full circle, isn't it? So, I worked with Patrick when I was very young. He was somewhat younger. Although he looked just the same - bald. I always rather envied him in those days because he could play any part, you know, any age. He could play old men and did when he was in his twenties. I think he used to have this piece that he used to pop on for auditions but I think he was always more successful with the bald look.
Q. And you worked with him in which production or show?
A. I worked with him when I was on Stratford Upon Avon and I was there in 1965. Productions we did were Henry IV Part I, Part II. They were good sleeping pills. Henry V and various other productions and Patrick was a member of that company and so was I, but there were 100 actors in that company so it wasn't like we were buddies together. We weren't, but we knew each other and got on quite well.
Q. When you were that kid, in having a dream that most actors have, how was the reality different from the dream?
A. Well, my dream pretty much came true and I'm sure his did because soon after I left the Royal Shakespeare Company....I hated it by the way. I loathed it. I thought it was like working for the damn government. It was no different. All the political crap that went on.
Q. And you had to do all those plays.
A. That was the only good part about it. It was just horrendous. I mean they rehearsed, the wastage, the boredom of it. I hated it. Obviously Patrick liked it. He was there for 12 years. I thought they should all get a medal for that.
Q. How long were you there?
A. One year. That was enough for me. It was like being sentenced to Sing-Sing.
Q. How did you leave the RSC?
A. When I left the Royal Shakespeare Company I remember saying to Peter Hall, who ran the company - you have to go meet with him at the end of season and he would give you your marching orders or tell you what exciting things lay in prospect for you. So, six of us met in the pub, The Dirty Duck, and we were young revolutionaries if you like and troublemakers, agitators, you know, and we would say -- I remember saying things like, "This is all crap. I'm going in there. I'm going to tell this guy to stick this damn company -- I feel like I am here just to move furniture," because that is basically what the young actors do. They come in, they bring on the crown or throne and then the actor comes in and sits on it and you stand by it and then you take the damn thing off. That is what drove me nuts. Now, there were six of us, I remember saying, "We're going in there. We are going to tell this guy where to stick this damn company" and, of course, I was the first in and I did tell him, "There is no way. I don't care what you had in mind for me. I'm out of here. I'm gone. I'm history" and I'm going off. He said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "I'm going to be a movie star." Ha, ha, ha. Laugh, laugh, laugh. So, I'm waiting for the other five to come back to The Dirty Duck and they come in eventually and I said, "You told him?" "Well, he offered me the third duke from the right and you know, I think it could be a great part." "Twelve lines!" "Well, there are ways I could put a lot of emotion in..." I was the only one. I talked myself out of a job. But there you are. You take your chance and within, I think, a year I was starring in my first movie. So, I was very lucky.
Q. Have there been many ups and downs?
A. There have been so many. I think careers go up and down, up and down, up and down. I think what I have learned is in the down time when nobody seems to want you and you are in cold storage, you learned how to use that time productively and not get down on yourself. You have to be philosophical about it and you know it is a cross - from an actor's point of view, this profession is one of rejection. I don't even care if you are Tom Cruise. I mean, Anne Rice rejected him. Didn't want him. I don't care who you are, there is always that element of rejection and, of course, you have to have thick skin about it. I used to say, "Oh, well, they didn't want me to do that part. They are the losers, not me." But, of course, you know, that was a way of getting through it.
Q. But what do you do?
A. Oh, you get on with another life - you have another life. You have a family and another life entirely and I think that is important. The work is only the work, but the real life is what is really important.
Q. Did you dislike Shakespeare or was it just the RSC?
A. I think more the RSC. I think I am not a very good company member. That's why I could never do what Shatner and Stewart have done. I could never be a company man for seven years in the same part. It would drive me insane.
Q. How do you feel about becoming part of the Star Trek phenomenon?
A. I'm not going to be part of it. I'm onto the next thing already and that's it.
Q. What is next?
A. Well, I finished a movie called Tank Girl, which was a cartoon in Europe which is kind of a fun piece. So, it is a big budget thing for UA. We'll see how that goes.
Q. How did this come about actually? When you were first approached - when you heard Star Trek, what went through your mind?
A. Well, I had an open mind about it because, you know, I don't think I would do the series on television just because it doesn't appeal to me very much. I read the script and although I didn't really understand the script, I couldn't understand a word of it with all that Nexus stuff. I didn't know what the hell they were talking about but I thought there was a glimmer of a part there. A glimmer of some things that could be fun. So, they asked for a meeting and I went into a meeting with them and they asked me to read for it. I said, "No, I won't." It was ridiculous. What do they think it is, Shakespeare? So, I wouldn't read it, but I had a very good meeting with Rick Berman and David Carson, and I think we got to talking about Patrick Stewart in the old days and there was a tape on. I hope he never sees this, but I think they said something about how old Patrick Stewart was and, of course, I knew how old but I am not going to tell today, but when they said at this meeting how old he was, I said "Yeah, that's right." So, we just had a bit of a laugh. Anyway, Rick Berman told me it was a very, very funny tape. So, I closed the door on the way out and they knew they wanted me to play the part.
Q. So, did you have fun?
A. Yes, I did. It was great because working with Patrick was fun for me because I knew him all those years ago and I have bumped into him at various times through our lives and I always liked Patrick, you know. What's not to like? He's a nice guy and I didn't really know what to expect when I worked with Bill Shatner, but he was a gentleman - very professional. We had all these fights and then we went back and shot the damn thing. It was a never-ending ending.
Q. I understand you were the one who announced you were killing Kirk.
A. Yes, I was.
Q. You let the word out early.
A. Probably. Somebody asked me and I told them. And then I said, "Oh, did I do something wrong. Nobody told me not to say anything." They said, "No, it's okay." Well, yes, I shot him in the back originally and then I think they wanted him to have more of a heroic death. So, he fell off a bridge that I blew up. I suppose I would be held up on manslaughter rather than murder in the first. So, I think I am responsible for his death. It is just that I wasn't there to actually tread on his fingers and let him drop down that 200 foot cliff - but if they had asked me, I would have been there like a shot.
Q. Malcolm, when Hollywood casts villains, why do they always cast the English actors?
A. I think you should address that question to these idiots out there. I don't know. The English make good villains for some reason. Going back - way back. I remember talking to James Mason about that. I said, "Oh, you will be in that villain category and that will be it." But he had a very busy career. I don't mind - I love playing villains. I must say that it is nice to change occasionally, but I always have fun playing villains and I never take it too seriously, of course. I think villains are always the most interesting parts, usually, and what I like particularly about playing the villain is you don't have to be in every day. So, it's lovely. You don't have to carry the piece. The shoe leather as I call it. Being there for every shot. You just come in and steal the scenes that you are in and then you are on to the next.
Q. Do you think this movie will make more younger people aware of who you are?
A. Who knows? It depends on, I suppose, whether it is successful or not. If it is successful, I suppose it will, but I quite like the place that I am in. I rather like having people that know me because they have had to work at it a bit. I don't like to be too accessible through a TV show or something like that. It's much nicer and better where I am.
Q. Do you think people still remember you from a lot of the earlier movies?
A. Some do. Some do and then it is nice. They were wonderful films and I'm very, very happy that I did them, but life moves on. You can't dwell on the past.
Q. Have you ever considered -- I'm sure you must have -- how Clockwork Orange nowadays is almost like a documentary?
A. Yes, it is indeed. Well, of course, it is a brilliant film anyway. It is not so violent. I remember when it came out, I was actually shocked at the way the Americans particularly jumped on this whole thing of the violence of Clockwork Orange. I thought if they ever read the book, they would realize how much it was tamed down. Don't they ever read the newspapers? The violence is out in the street, you know. I think it is sort of an extraordinary message. Really, the film to me is not about the violence although, of course, that is very much a part of it, but it is really about the freedom of a man to choose what he wants to do and I think a sacred right of a human being is choice.
Q. Wasn't that banned in Britain?
A. It wasn't banned in Britain. There seems to be some confusion because Stanley Kubrick had the power to stop the film from being shown in Britain. I think he is rather paranoid about any gangs coming around and whacking him on the head or something. I don't know what his reason is for it, but I know it is not censorship. It is more Stanley. I think he is very paranoid about it. Maybe he's right. I don't know. I don't live in England any more.
Q. Was Soran a particularly physical role for you?
A. It was. It is not running the mile or anything or a marathon, but it was a fun role. I mean there is no question about it, I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed finding the character because it really wasn't on the page of the script. I really in my mind have this idea that this man was like a drug addict -- had to get a fix and he wouldn't let anything divert him from that one goal. He was a very concentrated man. I really liked Soran as a character. I don't think he is a bad man at all. I've played much meaner. He is not a mean character. He has no malice really. Yes, he was going to destroy a planet with 230 million souls or whatever. But....you know.
Q. I understand you really enjoyed the scenes with the Klingons.
A. I loved those Klingons. Oh, those girls. They are just party girls, you know. Especially when they got their teeth out. But, of course, when I walked -- when I came into a room and there they were, I would never recognize them in years. Boy, they were pretty well endowed, let's put it that way. That is about all I was looking at the whole time. It is like working with two Patrick Stewarts.
Q. Christmas is coming. What was your most memorable Christmas?
A. Oh, my God. My most memorable Christmas? Oh, I think when I was a child. Of course, Christmas is for children really. Now, it is pretty ghastly. I think I remember it most as a child - opening the presents and being with the family.
Q. Where?
A. For me it was in Liverpool in England.
Q. Were you poor? Were you rich?
A. Middle class. Suffering middle class. It was just the same then as it is now. Although we weren't rich by any means, we never really suffered. We always did quite well.
Q. Didn't you narrate the documentary, The Compleat Beatles?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was there any reason? I didn't realize the Liverpool background.
A. Paul McCartney asked me to do it.
Q. Did he really?
A. He didn't ask me personally but I was on a Concord flight with him and Linda and it was soon after that I got a call saying would I do it. I said I would like to see it before I did it and I saw it and it was a brilliant film. Of course the Beatles are very much a part of my history, because one went in tandem with Beatles because they opened it up for the people of Northern England and they made it easier for me to be an actor, really. For sure. I have always been very fond of them. I veer more towards John Lennon probably than Paul McCartney. That's probably just the way I think. Although one could admire Paul McCartney, I think the real heart of the group was John Lennon. But, of course, without either of them, they would never have been anything - because they were so competitive and I think that Paul McCartney was so brilliant for John because he would come up with all these great tunes and then John would have to try and top him, and he was so lazy of course. Because if it hadn't been for McCartney, I don't think Lennon would ever have written anything, hardly. You know, it's true.
Q. Of course, you have to throw George Martin in there somewhere too.
A. Well, George Martin just mixed a good sound and just produced it. What has George Martin done since? The real true greatness is really those two - although the four of them actually. The way they came together was a whole era really. It was more than just four provincial lads. The stuff that they wrote really in retrospect is staggering. We are talking in terms of the greatest composers of this century - up there with them - the Gershwins and all that. They can hold their own with any of them. But I do believe it was all to do with upping one on each other and competition between them.
© RetroVision 1995
Archived 2001-08 Alex D. Thawn for www.MalcolmMcDowell.net