With Malcolm McDowell and Paul Bettany 5/23/02
MM: (About Paul) As you can see we're almost the same height.
Q: You really don't meet in the film.
MM: No, how could we?
Q: You're the same person.
MM: Well, that's not true.
Q: Well....I don't know exactly what...
MM: We're all stumped here. We stepped over a couple of people in the lobby who'd thrown up. So that's good publicity isn't it? They walked out of A Clockwork Orange in DROVES. Did OK for that film? Thank god somebody put their hand up.
Q: Can you reflect on the new wave of British gangster films since this was previously an American genre?
MM: I think that you can see we owe everything to the likes of Mr. Cagney, George Raft and Humphrey Bogart. I didn't copy exactly Jimmy Cagney. What can I say? I just think he's the greatest actor that lived and will ever do the art of cinema acting. To me he's the greatest.
Q: Did you have Cagney in mind for Gangster?
MM: No, I didn't have him in mind at all, but he's always in my mind.
Q: And in your body?
MM: I suppose so.
Q: What about you?
PB: I just copied Malcolm. That was it.
MM: With the light on him like this it is hard for him to start proving himself . (Sings) It's the good Life...
Q: What was shot first, Malcolm or Paul's scenes?
PB: (Pointing at MM) Malcolm's.
MM: The weird thing about co-productions in Europe is that we made such a cockney subject. Obviously a very abundant subject like this we ended up shooting the interiors in Berlin! Go figure? My father visited Berlin, but he was 40,000 feet above the city. So it's weird....weird. (To Paul) Didn't you find that weird?
PB: Yeah, well I thought the whole thing was normal really.
MM: His first gig, that's right. I shot the stuff in the apartment first. I was on the first week and the director asked young Paul here to come and observe the film. So he had to sit there and watch...
PB: Sit cross-legged and watch him. He works in a really, really beautiful way. It was like Jackson Pollack just throwing up paint on a canvas. Honestly, it was. It gave me so much confidence to just see this person really work.
MM: And what did I say to you at the end of my week?
PB: You said your only advice as you drove off in your limousine was 'Don't fuck it up.'
MM: And he didn't!
Q: Paul are you going to play Malcolm in a film?
PB: Absolute, complete fabrication.
MM: No, he's going to play David Sherwin and I'm going to play Lindsay Anderson. In a film of the book written by David Sherwin of diaries of a period of my life which was very exciting. It was the writing of O Lucky Man! and the making of if.... and the weirdest thing is somebody actually wants to make this into a movie!
Q: Is it the book Going Mad in Hollywood?
MM: Yes. Apparently I think they are trying to get it together, but I don't believe anybody will. It is supposed to be Michael Winterbottom. (To Paul) You are cast as David Sherwin. When I read the script and I just hooted with laughter because it makes David Sherwin out to be some Casanova and I'm here to tell you the guy was the biggest geek. This guy couldn't get laid in a whorehouse! This is how he used to get girls, I'm serious, he would put an ad in the Evening Standard for "A secretary to a famous writer." Get this, a famous writer? He had written one movie and it hadn't even opened. Of course he would get involved with the girl that comes up to be the secretary. Usually they couldn't even type and he's supposed to be a writer writing our next film. So I said to him, 'David next time you put an ad in for a secretary I'm going to be there to interview them with you, OK?' 'Okay, okay'. Lindsay said, 'Yes, absolutely. We can't have you flogging off like that.' The next time he did was only a few months before he put the ad in again and this lovely 60 year old lady came in who was eminently qualified - could take short hand and everything! I said, 'David this is the one for you.' So he rather glumly sort of said, 'Oh, OK.' So the next day I heard he got rid of her, got the bimbo who'd come in and I think that's the one he married. You're not to repeat this in England OK?
Q: The acting is great, but what is this film? Why make it with all the wars going on in the world? What is the point?
That's for the director to answer...
MM: Listen, he's not here so I'll try with the help of my friend here. That's your opinion and I disagree entirely. What do you think of Shakespeare? Have you ever read King Lear or Macbeth? These things are bloody. Have you ever read any of the Greek tragedies? You did, then OK. If you've read them then you know.
Q: What about the violence like when Freddie Mays is killed?
PB: Freddie didn't die.
Q: What do you want people to take away from the film?
MM: After you.
PB: What I didn't want to do was make another film for middle class white boys like me to sort of go 'Man I wish I was a gangster'. Frankly I don't really understand the morality of making the violence palpable for the screen so we made it unpalpable.
MM: I think if you are going to make a film like this about violence you are either going to do it or you aren't. Our director and writers were brave to do it. It is hard to watch, some of it, there is no question about it. I'm sorry, but East End gangsters are not nice people, they're really not. If you read about the craze of the Richardsons in London's East End they did the most horrific things. You may say 'this is not too far' - you are perfectly OK to say that. I would defend that, but that's it. It is a question of taste. You can always leave the theater which Alan just did (the guy who asked what was the point - Alex) and I don't know why he stayed till the end. For the script? Thank you.
Q: Has anyone ever said anything about an unrequited love angle here?
MM: No. Go ahead and say that.
Q: Your character would like to be where Freddie Mays is, so in a sense it is a lust after the power and the man who has the power?
MM: See Gangster he is a psychopath obviously. He's not quite got all of his marbles, but there is something compelling about him. The fact is he doesn't have a moral code. He can't understand. To him gold cufflinks and tie pins mean more than loving another human being or relating to a woman. He can't relate to a woman to save his life. It's sort of pathetic. When she spits at him at the end....
PB: At us?
MM: (Laughs) For me, thank you.
Q: But he envies him?
MM: Of course. When he says, 'What is it? What is it you fucking want? You want the shoes? Take the fucking shoes? You want the fucking tie, take the fucking tie.' All that. Oh! A little buzz there? Just kidding. Anyway he obviously wants what Freddie Mays has which is to be free. To have a moral code. To be able to love someone, to be loved for who he is. He thinks he's the better man because he made the money then why does he step off the building at the end...? Because he's not. Freddie Mays says, 'I'm just an old man in a cheap suit.' And that's it. That is my favorite line in the whole film.
Q: Do you ever get any scripts since Time After Time where you get the girl?
MM: I wish I could say I did, but no. I don't think I've been sent a script where I got the girl in 25 years. There was one where I got the guy, but I decided to pass on that one. I'm actually going to play a transvestite which should be fun. I've been turning this down for three or four months because I really couldn't stand the idea of getting up at six in the morning and putting on womens' clothes, brassieres, falsies and all this and the tape and all that. Eventually I rolled over in bed one morning and thought maybe I ought to do this since they were so insistent so I'm gonna try it.
Q: There is one film were you get the girl, but you are both in wheelchairs.
MM: Oh, Jesus that was so bloody long ago.
Q: Caligula!
MM: Caligula, yes I have! All right here's a Caligula story.
This is absolutely true. Gore Vidal who roped me for this film which I actually
quite loathe, but still. It's produced by this wonderful man called Bob Guccione.
(At this point Paul Bettany leaves the stage and sits in the front row and
Malcolm says to him 'You don't have to sit down.')
I read the script and I said, 'Oh, god Gore I really don't think that in this
stage of my career that I can actually bugger the bride at the wedding and turn
around and screw the bride and the groom.' He goes, 'Why not?' I said, 'Well,
you know it might not be the right kind of career move I'm looking for. Could we
imply it and then cut and move on.' 'No, no I want you to bugger the groom then
fuck the wife. OK?' There was resistance all the way and he kept saying I was a
really boring English middle class actor and all the rest of it for not doing
it. Not that I'd ever seen anyone do it up to that point. No one anyway who
hadn't gone to prison for it. We had a producer named Franco Rossellini who was
the nephew of the great man. (Notices someone) And Bob Altman that's him! Mr. Altman is over here
ladies and gentleman - the best American director right now. Anyway, I will
finish this story. So Frank Rossellini just came back from New York and he was
talking in a very excited way about this club called 'The Anvil'. I said, 'What
do they do the at The Anvil?' (Puts on an Italian accent) 'Malcolm all me know
is it is fantastico! They take a fist and they stick it up the ass!' 'You are
kidding right? You buy a drink and then you stick your fist up someone's ass!?'
He says, "Ah, it is fantastic!' I went, 'Wait a minute!! I don't mind fist
fucking the guy OK. I think I can get away with that.' So they said, 'Great!' So
they rewrote the script....'I Caligula Caesar in the name of the citizens' (and
demonstrates the move). So there you are. I was able to get away with actually
buggery with a fist fuck. Unfortunately the young actor that played the groom
had not been informed of this. He arrived with a retinue of people as it was his
first job. He walked in with his big brothers, his father and various assistants
only to be told to strip and get up on the thing with his trousers down. So I
merrily went my way and of course I simulated it naturally, being an actor, and
managed to take a rose from my crown of thorns and pop it on his bottom. And
that's what really upset him! Anyway, come and see Caligula if you like. There's
not many jokes in it. C'mon Paul, you say something now because I'm tired.
Q: This was your first film and then you did Beautiful Mind and then you did another film with the same director Paul McGuigan?
PB: I made a film called The Reckoning which is going to be out this fall hopefully. It is about a priest which I play who goes on the run because he's in trouble. In America I say he is a priest who has sex with one of his flock. Some people thought I was talking about cloven hoofed animals, but I'm talking about a parishioner. He goes on the run and he meets some actors headed by Willem Dafoe of all people and we go and solve the murder.
MM: Like you do.
Q: When will The Reckoning come out?
PB: In the Autumn, but I don't know. Ring up Paramount Classics because I've been trying to find out myself.
Q: What was the most challenging scene for each of you in Gangster?
MM: One that they cut. I had a six minute monologue to an empty chair which of course is why I accepted the part. And the fucker cut it! Actually I knew he would probably cut it. It was a marvelous bit before the scene with Freddie Mays at the end he goes through a whole imaginary scene to an empty chair and it is so different. He's so complimentary, nice and conciliatory and then of course at the end snaps. It was actually a terrific scene and it made it on the DVD I'm told. That was the hardest because it was the first one up. It was six minutes of non-stop talk. Bah bah bah real quick fire stuff and it was the first one so I had to dive into the character with that kind of scene. How about you?
PB: The biggest challenge with me was the catering actually.
Q: Who was in charge of the catering?
PB: I don't know, just keeping it down was quite a challenge.
MM: That bad?
Q: The food was bad?
PB: Yeah, it was very bad.
Q: That usually means it's a good movie when the food is bad.
PB: It's hard to kill on an empty stomach.
Q: How did you approach Gangster compared to Alex in ACO?
MM: Not in the slightest. There's just a little gap of thirty years. I can't remember what I did in Clockwork Orange - it has nothing to do with it. I didn't play a psychopath in that one, it was a different style entirely. This was very much a Cockney truth based thing. Alex was very stylized. I suppose people say it is sort of the same. It is the same actor, there's nothing I can do about my nose. The nose is the nose when I was 25 or the age I am now which is fifty sem flem. No, they are very, very different and I go sort of the way he (Paul) does. We are not method actors, we just do it instinctively hopefully. What can you do with one psychotic gangster? Honestly, you just really learn the lines. Learn the lines so you never have to think of them and you just hope what is going to come out is going to take you through and you are going to find something, a moment, a little transcendence on the page that'll take you through.
Q: How is that for you Paul?
MM: How do you work?
PB: Oh god. I hate these questions. You always sound like an ass when you talk about how you work. You can't do it.
MM: Thank you very much.
PB: I enjoy it, but you want me to tell the truth?
MM: Tell the truth! We want to know how does Paul Bettany do it.
PB: I went and spoke to a bunch of gangsters really. I would eat sandwiches with lard in the middle so I could really, really drink a lot and not get drunk and them watch them make fools of themselves.
MM: Well, whatever works!
Q: Can you talk about the play compared to the film?
MM: The play was a four hander. There were monologues - gangster basically talking about everything you've seen and then he had these cohorts come in and then another page of dialogue. It was very well written. Basically what happened was they expanded the thing. Instead of talking about it they showed it in flashback. They used the dialogue, the monologues from the play, as the voice over. The voice over I do over his stuff is really lifted directly from the play. I don't think it was rewritten at all unless there was something that had to be fitted in. It was a clever job of opening it up. The whole boxing match in the beginning was invented by the screenwriter. The whole ending I shot later. There was no ending. I can't remember now, but Paul (the director) decided he wasn't sure what ending he wanted and decided to shoot anything - to cut it, look at it and then decide and write it. That's what he did and I came back from LA back to London a few months later. I did all the dialogue, the voice over stuff, then we shot for a day or so on the roof at the end. (To Paul) Did you do any reshoots?
PB: No.
PB: Oh, you were all done.
PB: Well no, I came in to read lines with Saffron.
MM: Good man, how was that?
PB: Fabulous gal of course.
MM: So that's the way it works. He knew what he wanted. Really I can't compliment him enough, even though I can't understand him because he is a Scot. He is a wonderful, wonderful director.
Q: From Edinborough?
MM: Glasgow! I honestly can't understand him. (To Paul) Can you?
PB: No. I haven't understand a word he said to me in 2 years. I just would say 'Yes.'
Q: Can you talk about a David Thewlis since he bookended you?
MM: How could we be bookended by him? WE bookended him! Listen I cannot say enough about how great David Thewlis is. He is a wonderful actor and a truly fine human being. What more can one say?
PB: He's a great guitarist.
MM: Let me tell you a funny story about David. He was very worried about doing the age stuff and all that. He spent a long time on it. I noticed in the make-up trailer that the make-up lady and he were down there working on the lines for the aging stuff. I went off and I shot the six minute monologue and maybe it took seven hours? I came back completely drained, sat down, and I look down the make-up trailer - lo and behold David Thewlis is down there with the make-up lady Jenny whatever her name was in the same position as when I left!? I just said, 'Fucking hell. Is this a natural aging job?' But I tell you, it worked very well.
Q: I agree. David has been here several times and he is a brilliant actor.
MM: He's brilliant.
PB: I've got a really good David Thewlis story actually. David Thewlis is very depressed. He's at a restaurant waiting for this girl and drinks a bottle of red wine. She hasn't turned up, so he drinks another bottle of red wine and he thinks screw this, fuck it I'm off. So he walks out and he's really drunk now. He's standing by the Thames and it is a very breezy night. He thinks, 'I'll just throw myself in'. He says, 'No, If I throw myself in I'll hit the water and I'll be cold, then I'll have to swim and I'll be wet, cold, stupid and depressed.' So he sits back down on these steps in front of this house and he throws up. Then this woman comes out of the house and she goes, 'What are you doing?' And he says, 'I'm sorry.' Then she goes, ''It's you!' He goes, 'No it isn't.' She says, 'Yes, it is in fact. Can I get your autograph?' He's sitting there with this red wine sick all over him and she gives him a pen and paper and he says, 'Who is it to?' She says, 'Maureen.' He signs it 'To Maureen, Love David Thewlis' And she looks at it and goes,' Oh, I thought you were Reese McVance.'
MM: I don't think we can top that. Thank you very much!
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