Columbine Thinking

Observations and Thoughts

These are just random thinking about the whole situation. They're not in any particular order and jump from one topic to another. Some were posted into the Discussion Group, others were responses to email.

Yes, the "I Will" program is a start and we do hope it will spread, through the teen grapevine so to speak, to other schools and teen groups. It addresses the respect each other's teen life style issue.

However there are two other types. If memory is correct, they've been examples of each in past school shootings.

First there is teen love, a dumped boyfriend, rival boyfriends and the like who let their jealously and emotions go too far. How should the teens counsel each other? (The other part of the Westside Story)

Second there are students who feels wrongly treated, academically, by a teacher. How should teens counsel each other?

A. Brooks Brown and the Choir.

In Robbie post of Tuesday 19:30, there's was reference to Brooks Brown and the Memorial Choir. I didnt recognize the name so I looked around the news sites to learn who he is and how he fits into this. From what I gathered he is part of the Brown family whose parents notified the sheriff's department about Eric Harris' website and threat against Brooks Brown. (I hope I got facts right.) I still didnt understand why some others in the choir treated him like that. Was he friends with Eric and Dylan? How does Brooks who was supposedly threatened by Eric end up receiving taunts from others?

Then I found this:

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/Reuters19990504_1990.html

What's going on in the sheriff's department and this part of the investigation?

Yes, it's sad Brooks was taunted and chose to leave. Perhaps that was a sign of wisdom on his part, leave so there would not be a continuation of any unneccessary distraction from the memorial, even though he was wronged. It's an example of how what I call the darkness (hate, anger, animosity) is countered by the brightness (love, kindness, forgiveness) that exists within each of us and collectively in all of us together.

Then there's this thing with the investigation. I'm not sure what to make of it, wheather the news media is painting a bad picture of oversights, a few human mistakes in what must be mountain of paperwork or if the department is really doing a bad job.

I can see this, it seems typical in past cases. It's a case that's drawing national attention, there's pressure to find out the why how and who, there's pressure to cover one's own liability risks (either legal or job performance), the public wants justice if not just any scapegoat (the term witchhunt has come to mind several times). It's all another example of how the darkness can be allowed to grow in each and all. In this investigation though, the darkness hinders the search for facts and truth. The brightness of cold, sober, unemotional, analytical reasoning in needed to counter the darkness.

B. Another Kind of Memorial.

Over the years, I guess it's been almost twenty, I've noticed as I drive around the upstate of South Carolina, there's a different kind of of road signs along side the road. Where there's been some fatal accident, people have erect small crosses, left reefs like one would see in a cemetery, or just flowers. The teens, when one of their friends was involved, still like to write with spray paint, messages of "We'll miss you", "We love you John," "Class of '97 will remember you," and then there's just hearts and crosses. They are both the occassional reminder to be safe and a rememberence of someone lost.

I dont know if something like that might work for these deaths at schools. Maybe a simple monument of a generic religious design, maybe a large rock with a spray painted message "Be Safe" "Be Viligant" "Be Respectful" "Say Hi and Be Nice to Everyone Today" "Can you say 'I'm sorry' 'I forgive you'?". Maybe all the schools need such a large rock with a message at the enterance to their space.

Oh well, I guess I'm just dreaming again, trying to spread a little more brightness to counter the darkness.

C. Violence in Society.

I hope all that follows is not inapporpriate for this site. It's just that if there's any serious effort to understand and correct this problem of youth violence or violence in general we need to make a reasonable, rational effort. It is offered mostly because of all the discussion about guns and teenagers and the so called violence in society.

Several years ago, 1993, there seem to be more talk in the news about the high and rising crime numbers. I decided to do my own study of the cime statistics.

Some of the sources I used were World Almanacs, Britiannica Yearbooks but I learned they used the FBI's Annual Crime Stastics report. Your local library probably has a collection of them in the Government Publications section.

Also, I found this site which appears to have the same numbers, it's more updated too, 1997 I think, look for a link to "Crime Stats*: http://www.disastercenter.com

Anyway, I plotted the data for the different types of crime for the period 1960 - 1992, along with some population curves and age distribution, arrest age distribution and other such data. These are some of my observations, number are approximately rounded.

1. In 1962 there were 8,000 murders, in 1974 there were 21,000, from 1974 to 1992 the number of murders has fluncuated within about 15% of an average increase of 1%. Makes one think about what happened during the 1962-74 period to cause such an increase, it didnt correlate with general population increase. It did correlate with *peak criminal activity age* though.

Oh yeah, 1997 is a low point in number of murders, less than 19,000 I think. Odd that this event happened now, against the trend.

2. Aggravated assualt reported (general mental attitude indicator?), 1962 150,000 incidents, 1974 410,000, 1992 1,100,000. Aggravated assualt arrests (those reports worth an arrest) 1962 9,000, 1974 19,000 1992 420,000. Over the time period it was pretty much a steady annual increase.

I think it needs to be kept in mind that over the decades what was considered an assualt become *devalued?*. A slight shove during some arguement use to be ignorable in 1962, by 1992 any physical contact became assualt.

3. The peak criminal activity age is normally distributed between 15 and 23, the peak occurs at 18-19. After 24 there is a steady decline till about the mid 40s age group, the point where ratio between current age and peak age is less the 5:30.

Number of 18 year olds arrested for murder, rape, assualt and robbery (the data was broken down into catagories, the patterns were the same in each): In 1965 8,000; 1970 15,000; 1975 24,000; 1980 27,000; 1985 20,000 (bad data point?); 1990 28,000.

I think most of what these year and age distribution plots show is just the baby boomer generation passing through the normal criminal activity ages. Also, that there just more teenagers now too because of general population increase.

4. Total Federal and State prison population: For the years 1960 - 1974 a slight fluncuation around 200,000. For the years 1975 - 1990 a steep annual increase to 740,000. I think I read or saw it's over 1,000,000 now.

Draw your own conclusions, I dont know what to make of the plots except it's some combination of more criminals and more of what's consider criminal and lesser threshold of what is consider criminal.

5. Murder weapons: Data in this catagory began in 1972. This is a tough one to describe, you really should do your own plots or find one already done.

Hanguns. 1972-1981, period average about 9,500, low point 1975 with 8,500, high point 1981 with 11,000. 1981-1987 period, steady decline to a low point in 1985. 1987-1992 steady annual increase to about 12,500.

Other than firearms: 1972-1981 steady annual increase from 5,200 to 8,100. 1982-1992 slight fluncuation around 7,500.

6. I did try to look for a correlation between the crime stats and number of televisions in households for the period studied. I didnt find any data to work with. There's just some vague feeling the number televisions in the 1950s was a lot fewer than by the late 1970s. But that's just my feeling with nothing to point to.

D. My new fear.

My new fear, or it's a fear I expected sooner or later, is this discussion and this event parallels real life too much.

The deaths in the family (the human family) have occurred, there's been the gathering of family and friends from around the world, moral support has been given, cards of sympathy and condolences have been sent, the funerals have been held, there's been the wake where the deceased have been remembered (I prefer the deep Dixieland and Irish types, a celeberation of life's contiunence after the funeral), now everyone seems to have gone away, gone back to their business of living, when more should be staying to talk about and work on this problem of school violence.

E. John.

John, thanks again for your hard work and efforts in maintaining this discussion group. I havent figured out if you did it alone or if you had help, thanks to the others as well if you did.

Pass along my admiration to all others in Jefferson County School System. I know it's been a really tough time to endure it all and still keep the everyday work going, especially setting up the adjustments for the use of one school for two student bodys. I do pray that the get along peacefully together.

If and when you close this group, I think it would be most appropriate to use Marti Stocker's composition of the Columbine Flower and Poem as the final posting. It's just a thought.

Peace, Love, Respect to Each and All.

I agree with most of your thinking and reasoning in your two posts, that the abuse received by Eric and Dylan was a major contributing factor and the video games, guns and bombs were just the method they chose. Abuse is a lack of respect for human value. I still keep in mind that I dont really know the true circumstances at Columbine, only the people there know that. I've only seen the quotes of some students in the news media (sound bites selected by the news media) and I have a healthy mis-trust of news media. I would include additional factors.

My line of thought connecting these factors is this. Schools have become impersonal, they are entities meeting the demands of whatever policies, rules, regulations are dictated to them by the government and public. They become factories and students are the product. At the same time teens are trying to develop their own sense of individuality, just the opposite. They cluster into groups of like minded sense of style to express that individuality. Within each group the teens continue to try to emerge as individuals. Extremism develops and eventually meets in conflict with another group. One becomes the abuser and the other the abused. Enter now an unstable individual, perhaps two, one from each group. Unstable for whatever reasons one wants to use be they a natural or prescription drug imbalance, behaviour modification methods (OBE), poor moral mental processing, lack of parenting, inappropriate *peer parenting*, whatever. It's about then that the violent reaction happens. A violent reaction that can and will use whatever method they chose: guns and bombs, fists and clubs, knives and switchblades.

So far this discussion group, and other real world talk in general I suppose, has focused on the method (guns), unstabiity reasons (individual drug treatment, lack of parenting, I havent see peer parenting mentioned much if any), and lack of respect for an individual teen's lifestyle. Likewise most of the proposed remedies have focused on the last parts of this chain of events: more gun control, more accountablity from parents, better selection of behaviour modification.

I think more attention needs to be spent looking at the beginning of the chain of events. How do we change these factories back into schools of learning? How do we balance the need for policies and guidelines with the teenagers need for individuality development?

Thanks for the link. I reviewed most of the writings there, admittedly I didnt read every word, it was a long read.

The pros and cons of OBE, Conflict Management, Non-violent Resoution methods and such will have to be decided by someone with more expertise then I have. I see these types of programs or classes as treatments for the individuals who the system deems it's needed. (whom the system? why do I always get the feeling there's an English teach with red pencil in hand when posting to this school site?) Which is an extension of the discussion about the individuals Eric and Dylan. Also, some of what I read at that link left me with the impression that these programs and classes try to be specific, detailed. It seemed like they were trying to teach young adults it's wrong to use violence as a means of conflict resolution. It was like those systems were try to teach what is obvious to young adults.

The intent of my orginial post was to broading the aspect of mental health to the school social environment as a whole. Maybe the OBE and such was intented to manage the mental health of the school by managing the mental health of the individuals who needed it. Whether or not those programs work for the good or bad is a discussion within itself.

I guess my query along these lines is "Can programs be developed to treat the school's mental health (maybe *collective mental health* is a better phrase) as one would develop a treatment program for an individual?"

The first that usually comes to the public's mind is school uniforms, especially in light of the emphasis placed on the style of coats in this case. There's pros and cons with any program. Do school uniforms sacrifice too much of a teen's individuality development for the effect of eliminating a source of conflict? Is the psychology of making the student body more of a unit good or bad itself?

A second example, one which was mentioned in the editorial (man, I'm getting tired of looking up spelling corrections to advoid that red pencil) by that 18 year old student in my first post. He pretty much said schools, especially the large ones, are factories, "... students are statistics, mass-produced widgets rolling down an industrial assembly line." What does that say for the collective mental health of the schools? What treatment programs need to be develop to change and improve?

Consider the discussions about OBE, SAT, education standards and policies, and such. Those are symptons of the factory mentality it would appear, "company policies, detailed rules and regulations, production schedules, quality control, even culling out or reworking rejects." And then there's the comparable company politics. Officials, be they government, school or PTO (parents), seem to have their own particular interest to promote, they want their particular policy implimented.

Maybe we should just dump all that's current in the system and start over with some form of a one room school house mentality, a community cottage industry.

I'm a layman with respect to psychology, most things really. What I read in your response is that the schools are unhealthy mentally for the conditions and reason you cited. What would be the treatment for this social environment? Is such treatment possible? Should adminstration and educational policies and programs be designed with "mental health" as an aspect in mind? Maybe that's already considered.

Columbine Discussion Group, Monday May 3, 1999

More of This and That:

A. Why the parents wont interview with the police. This I think is understandable. From some of the discussion here and in chatrooms the first week, it was being said they were fully, mostly, partly responsible. What happened to innoncent till proven otherwise?

Also, in high profile cases (I really dont like that phrase, it's an extension of media hype) there is an over zealous sense of need for society to find justice or maybe just somewhere to place guilt. And then there's the law and judicial officials, additional pressure either explicitly or implictly applied, to do something or anything.

Look at some recent reevaluations of past cases where convicted individuals are finally being proven innoncent. And in some of them, the State still refuses to admit they were wrong.

Witness the finding of sawed off shotgun barrel and other items found in plain view. It seemed everyone, including the sheriff, jumped to irresponsiblity of parents for not seeing such. But, it's been asked by others, how long were those items there? Leftover from that morning? Or left out for days and weeks?

Some may say if they're innoncent of wrong doing, legal or otherwise, they've no need not to cooperate. I havent checked to see if they're others in the family besides the parents, if they are then the parents have the incentive to protect what remains of the family unit. Is that not "good parenting?"

But, the point is when does an over zealous "system" become untrustworthy as to finding the truth?

B. Where do we go from here? How do we build something positive and effective from all of this? Any suggestions?

Deep down I think I've decided those and other such questions can only be answered by the students. And youth in general because dropouts, street kids, gangs, teen culture are all involved in the mindset of this and each young generation.

Parents and all adults can teach, as best they can, right and wrong, what's moral and what's not; it is up to the child and young adults to learn and heed.

Adults, school officials, trustees, citizens (voters for funding) can do the best they can to make the schools safe; it's up to the students to do their on form of policing among themselves.

("Pssst, hey kid. Know or think something bad is going down? Be a fink, be a snich, be a tattletell, be a hero, save some lives, tell me who and when.")

("Psst, hey kid. Did you see a fight start? Did you see someone get insulted? Gather your peers around, tell them to stop.")

("Psst, hey kid. Start a new fad, make yourself an armband, a t-shirt, write some words on it, 'violence... not by me, not my school, not this year', 'Show each other respect', do it for yourself, it might catch on.")

("Pssst, hey kid. Practice what adults teach that's good, not what adults do that's bad, some of us a pretty dumb too, you know.")

Oh by the way, adults can do some of their own policing among themselves. Just substitute "Psst, hey adult" for "Psst, hey kid."

Adults, politicians, government officials, building contractors, school suppliers can study their legislation, policys, profit margins long and hard. Is the legislation genuinely effective or just political hype? Are the policies reasonable and cost effective? Can we donate more to the cause of education, future generations, by making less profit?

Students, dont waste what adults try to give you, make an honest attempt to learn as best you can.

There use to be a story told around my area, country folk humour, about a farmer with a stubborn mule. Every now and then the mule just wouldnt do what it was suppose to do. When that happened the farmer slapped it side of it's head with a two-by. He was once asked if that wasnt a bit cruel. "Yes it is, I suppose, but the mule is really dumb. I really have to get it's attention before I can get it to do right."

Me thinks sometimes we (all of us, all of society) are that dumb mule. Been hit side of the head with a lots worst than a two-by, too many times.

Columbine Discussion Group, Sunday May 2, 1999

Psychology of Our Schools?

The discussion about the psychology and psychiatry, use of medications or not, what kind, or mis-diagnosis as applied to Eric and Dylan is enlightening and constructive.

I've begun to wonder though, what is the "mental health" of the schools? Can social environments like schools be analyised like individuals? There was talk in the beginning of conflict between groups. Personal indignation and dignity abused. Now I read in a local paper a guest editorial by an 18 year old student who paints a dim view of local, regional schools, maybe schools in general.

"What happens when we do nothing to stop people from pummeling someone's heart so that it stops beating, stops caring? When alienation boils over into rage? When someone is so ostracized that it fosters a hatred so stong that it becomes murderous indignation?"

"In huge, impersonal suburban schools students are statistics, mass-produced widgets rolling down an industrial assembly line."

"Students have their hearts ripped out, their dignity crushed, their lives threatened. But since they're 'products' among thousands of others, who cares? Who has time?"

"We are surprised, then, when some students come out with the same degree of humanity as a product on an assembly line."

"We are shocked when a student who feels worthless starts to worship Hitler and white supremacy and then, in the desperation that follows a void of loneliness, goes into a paroxysm of violence and kill people."

"We've bred a social structure in our schools that makes it (previous quote) possible.... they are factories of hate."

Columbine Discussion Group, Saturday May 1, 1999

A. Where from --- Pickens South Carolina

B. "Idle Hands" --- did that, got auto-responder reply, apparently released anyway. I quit going to theater movies 8 years ago because they quit making decient ones, and the price of tickets got to high. Didnt get a VCR till last year and only rented a few movies since then.

C. NRA --- From what I understand it's a non-profit org and they scaled back the meeting to only what's minimum to keep that status. It's already been said by others, it was planned months before anyway. I'm not a member, not a memeber of anything really.

D. h.s. the shock somethinganother --- It's not really just him you know. How many of you go to internet Chatrooms? I hung out at Yahoo's Religion for a long time, then Current Events recently, of course I popped into most all of the types of rooms to see what's going on in them too. It was much the same everywhere, vulgar words, insulting remarks, irrational statements on some subject (when one was actually discussed), and then there's the sex talk. Even the chatnicks used were intended to make a statement about the person's view, opinion, character. I dont know the stats on the ages represented in those chat rooms, I've always got the impression they were mostly teens, twenties, maybe older. You dont see a chatter's face, or race, or ethnic hertitage or anything like that. You see the name they use and the words they use, and the thoughts they express... you see their mind. And quite frankly, it's scary what some of those minds look like, especially if they're teens.

E. Personal Memorial --- I'm no artist so graphics is out, I use to do free-verse prose but I've lost that ability, now I try short-short storys. I started one about Columbine, it's theme was about God (or whatever Diety one believes in) as a gatherer of spirit embers as they passed from this physical world to the spirit world (Heaven for most, again it's whatever one believes in). I thought, I put words into sentences, I weeped, I thought, I put words into sentences, I weeped.... Now I dont think I'll be able to finish, not that it would be worth much anyway, it related too much to what happened in the building. And then I came to Eric and Dylan... what to do? What's most apporpraite without being judgemental? Personally, that's God's decision and noone else's. Yes, in my story God gathers their spirit embers as well, He blew the darkness (the ash) off their embers and kept their spirits with Him. The other spirit embers joined their ancestors and friends already in the spirit world, by the way. The rest of the story was headed toward some literay essay on the brightness and darkness (good and bad) in the world and how they interacted. But that doesnt seem like the right kind of memorial for Columbine or any other such event.

F. Other memorials --- I'm a dreamer, I think "what if ...." What if for the first few days of each school year, an armband for every student "Violence.. not by me, not at my school, not this year." What if for a school uniform for one day a t-shirt with "Nevermore, nevermore."

G. Oh well, I've rambled on to much. Peace, Love, Respect to all!

An Analysis of the Columbine High School Tragedy
(An extreme example of violence in schools in general)

Abstract of the event:
Two teenage boys, late teens, do multiple killings and woundings at their high school. It was done supposedly in response to the ridiculing (verbal and/or physical abuse) of their particular style of being a teenager. The details have yet to be verified and otherwise validated. Additional specifics of the event can be found elsewhere on the internet.

Objective of discussion:
"... to try and understand who the killers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were, to try and understand what motivated them to do what they did, and what we can do to mitigate the chances of something like this happening in the future." --- disastercenter website

Generalized query:
The fundamental query is perhaps not understanding these two individuals and their motivation but rather understanding the why and how any particular teenager mentally processes their experiences to the point of erupting in such a violent act. This is just another way of stating the objective so that it becomes broader in scope and opens the discussion to all factors.

1. List all factors influencing teen life. *Other* is used as place holder, a reminder, for those not explictly named.

Family. Parents and/or step-parent, siblings or not, extended members. Social class, family lifestyle, religious or not, functional or dis-functional, moral and ethical or not. Other.

Social. Friends, acquaintances, peers, adult authoritive, cliches, groups, cults, best friends, antigonists, indifferent, parttime job or not, hangouts. Other.

Society. News media, movies, sports, crime, wars, religious ministeries, youth groups (positive), youth gangs and cults (negative), internet, video games. Other.

Other catagory.

2. The general rule is that all teenagers are subjected to all the factors in some form or fashion to various degrees. Implicit in the rule is a zero degree of influence zeros out that factor. Example, no parttime job implies no co-worker influence.

It should be reasonable to state that on the whole teenagers cope well with these influences, with respect to so few violent eruptions. (There are statistics available somewhere, I just havent found them yet.)

This brings us back to those who are the exceptions.

3. The factors and influences can be divided into two groups; some are crossover factors between the two groups.

The first grouping consists of those which are concerned with motivation, those that determined the mindset of individual which becomes violent and acts out the violence.

The second grouping consists of those which are concerned with methodolgy, those that detemined the means and type of violence.

4. The news media factor. (Motivational)

The first question to be answered in the Columbine event is, "Did the two have any interest in news?" Or perhaps they obtained their news from whatever talk there was among their peers, family and others. Of course this relates to the previous events of the past two or three years. Answer, undetermined.

First, in general the influence of the news media in relation to school violence can be measured by a histograph, a plot of event occurance versus time. From personal recollection, admittedly a vague one, there was another flare up of school shootings in the late 1980s. I've found reference to only one event 1988, the Oakwood Elementary School in Greenwood, South Carolina. Again, the statistical history data is probably somewhere to be found that indicate whether or not this is a real factor.

Second, there is a distinction between a national and local event. The more extreme the violence, the more national attention is given which leads to greater probability of additional events. Although, a positive exception is the advoidance of one in Texas.

The local events are those that involve one act of violence, a personal type cause and effect thing. They become a contributing factor to similiar occurences, and then only if they are known of by subsequent individual.

Third, there is just the news. It seems so full of negative type reports, death by everything from accidents to intentional killings. If not death, violence from family disputes to gang warfare.

But again, "Did the two have any interest in the news?"

5. Abuse by teenage peers, teenage life. (Motivational)

I yield to those who are teens now for contribution in this area. My teen life was in a small town high school during the sixites; a different era altogether where the worst was an occassional fist fight.

6. Violent video games.(Mostly methodology)

It appears to have played out like one, an emotional dettachment from reality, people became just targets. If they had been interested in paintball wars it would have been much the same, I think.

But the contributing factor is degree of obsession, at some point the mental process connected the abuse (cause) with the game (effect). This is probably one of the distinctions between many teens with comparable influences who do not resort to violence and those few who do.

There's also the news media here too, the violence they report in the news. Most, what's called normal I suppose, teens know the difference between fantasy in movies and television shows and reality of the news. It's that differentiation between fantasy and reality that breaks down during the mental process. (An abused and stressed out mental process?)

7. Family. (Motivational, it's either postive, negative or neutral)

In the Columbine event, it's undetermined. There's no verifiable knowledge of what the families were like.

From observations in chat rooms, other discussion group postings and the news media, emphasis is being placed on parent responsibility. However, extending this line of thought it should also include siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends and whoever else is associated with the individual. It's also misleading.

At some point, and it's usually the teen years, the child becomes morally and ethically responsible for their own lives. The "of legal age" is an abstract and arbitary concept, some societies and cultures use thirteen as the age of responsibility.

This is really a family socialogist and child development area with respect to when does the child truly learn right and wrong, what's acceptable and what's not, what's real and what's fantasy, when does parenting end and "peer parenting" begin.

There is also a contradiction. There are families and social factors which have all the commonally accepted norms of positive influence and still a teen can erupt into violence. The converse is true as well, negative influences and yet a teen that can cope with life.

So, how does parenting become any more or less important a responsibility when such a tragic event happens? The usual response is, "They should have see the signs, been more involved, ask what's going on in the garage, ...." The same question and response applies to siblings, extended family, friends, peers, and whoever else had an association with them.

But even that is misleading. How does anyone read the mind of another?

8. Missing the signs. (Neutral)

It's asked who missed the signs? The parents, teachers, peers, police, school psychologists, social workers or any others. Better to first ask if there were any real and genuine signs to be missed.

What made their hate website different from the thousands of others hate websites? What made their cult being ridiculed different from other peer ridicule? How does any teacher or principal or parent determine what's normal and abnormal among the teenagers?

Looking back with hindsight is misleading, one only sees possible signs in light of the final outcome. Without knowledge of the outcome they were only signs of normal behavior, or perhaps better to say normal, teen mis-behavior.

It would be speculation and conjecture to interpert what's reported by the news. The items found in the bedroom for example, that's exactly all that can be said till proven otherwise, they were reportedly found by the sheriff department, in plain view, in their bedroom. We dont know how long they were there, we dont know if the parents ever saw them in the open before.

9. Weapons. (Methodology)

Guns, gun-controls and available of guns all become an issue within themselves. Constitutional rights, violent people obtain them one way or another, fewer fatalities if guns were not used, if not guns it would have been knives, more powerful bombs, or worst weapons, ....

Whether it is guns, knives, bombs or whatever, they are all just the tools. It is the mindset behind the tools that is the problem. They are symptons, not the desease.

Homemade bombs with instructions obtained from the internet. That's one of those news media buzz phrases. Physics and chemistry are taught in high school, any inquistive and motivated student learns to make weapons from classes.

10. The Fallout.

"... what we can do to mitigate the chances of something like this happening in the future."

A. Dont fall into the blame game.

It's irrational to try and find some one person, group, or issue to lay the blame on. It's an accummlation of all factors and influences that reduces down to just how any individual mentally processes them into acting out real violence. It is their responsibility and theirs alone.

B. Dont force additional responsibility onto the parents.

Raising a family and being a responsible parent is difficult enough, especially for the common folk. (These two families appear to be better off, as best I've gathered from reports.)

Adding additional legal accountablity can, and probably would, create more problems than it solves.

The parent(s) become more suspicious of any perceived act of abnormality. Again, what's normal teen mis-behavior anymore? Then they must decide when to take legal action to protect themselves and the rest of the family from criminal prosecution.

For those parent(s) who do become prosecuted and convicted, what happens to the rest of the family? Who becomes responsible for them? The State?

How many more uncontrollable kids become street kids because they're a liability risk?

C. Violence in movies, television, games.

For those who believe these to be a major influence and source of violent behaviour, dont support them and encourage others not to. Dont go to those movies, dont buy sponsor's products and let them know you're not, dont buy the games.

D. Teenage life.

Cliches, cults, and groups have their place in teeage life. Just avoid the extremism. Speak out to your peers if you sense they're going too far.

(Hummph, my generation thought long hair was extreme. I did finally get use to boys with pierce ear rings, but I doubt if I'll ever get use to this extreme body piercing.)

Acceptance and tolerance, individually and grouply. Speak out to your peers if you sense they're not. Variety is the spice of life.

Seek counsel. Your friends and peers, teachers, adminstrators, school guidance, parents, brothers, sisters, pastors, ministers, social workers, find someone.

E. School Security.

I dont know what else can be done that's not already being done. More of the same just doesnt seem right. And just what would it take to prevent such an violent attack? Building security doesnt prevent a sniper on a nearby hill, there's already been one of those events too.

Let the students do their own self-policing, teenage peer pressure, it's their own lives in danger.

Violent event defense. Mandatory self-defense classes, martial arts, mediation, such things teach and enhance self-displicine, self-respect. Also provides some bases for how to react if and when the time comes.

F. News media.

Develop a healthy mis-trust of what's reported, it's their business to hype-up events for their own interests. It's been taught in journalism that bad news sells, it doesnt represent the whole of the real world.

Frankly and personally, the news media is just another method of propagating these events. I'm admittly biased so I wont say anymore.

G. Political fallout.

Dread, dread, dread. More political hype, a flare up of proposed legislation that never seems to accomplish what it's intended to do.

There are already teacher's assistants whose job it is just to do the government paperwork to document existing educational programs and policies. What if there was less of that so those teachers could do their job, teach? What if the assistants could do their job and help teach as well as watch more closely what's happening among the students?

*****
Ok, I've burned out, it's all starting to turn into rambling, probably have been since the beginning anyway. Bye.
*****

1. There's been much talk as to the cause but most appear to be centered around the individuals particular interest. Some put the responsibility on access to guns, some on parenting or lack of parenting, some on peer ridicule, society, violence in movies or television or video games, {insert all others you can think of here}.

2. The focus on the cause(s) is too narrow. One can make a complete list of all factors, even the remotist possiblities, and then it reduces to just exactly how these two teens processed all those factors within their minds. It is the fundamental question of why do some people, anyone regardless of age, kill and others do not.

3. The news media itself is a contributing factor. The amount of coverage and the type of coverage influences some marginally unstable individual to act. It's more of a factor than the violence in movies, television shows, video games. Most, I would think, can still diffentiate between fantasy and reality, they know the news is real.

4. Millions of teenagers (in this case) experience the summation of all the same factors and in varying degrees. Yet, how few resort to such a violent outburst? Again this points to just exactly how and why did these two react to the same influences.

5. Statistically two individuals killing thirteen is actually less significant than one individual killing another. The later case implies thirteen killers. Yet, the individual incidences are local news in general and attract less attention.

6. Irrationality of pointing to blame.

6a. Looking to blame someone or something becomes society's attempt to find a sense of justice at any cost.

6b. The most scary is trying to blame the parents for lack of supervision or other reason. At some point a child does become responsible for their own actions, morally and ethically even though not legally which is more of an arbitary concept. Should the parents of all criminals, teens and adults, be held responsible? The children of some bad parents become excellent adults and citizens. The cildren of some good parents become bad adults and citizens.

6c. Learning how to build bombs from the internet. This, without any qualifiers, leaves a sense that the internet is a bad thing. The internet in and of itself in neither bad or good; it can be used by good people to do good things and used by bad people to do bad things. Compare the hate and bomb making sites to the condolences, sympathy and moral support Columbine has received by the internet. Besides, I would think any smart high school student could just as easily learn how to make bombs (and other things) from the chemistry and physics classes they take in school.

6d. Accessiblity of guns, school security and other similiar things. Their mindset had already been determined, if not guns and homemade bombs what would they have used? The weapons are the tools, it is the mindset behind the weapons that is the danger. Which leads to,

6e. Missing the signs. It's asked who missed the signs, the parents, teachers, peers, police, school psychologists, social workers or any others. Better to first ask if there were any real and genuine signs to be missed. What made their hate website different from the thousands of others hate websites? What made their cult being ridiculed different from other peer ridicule? How does any teacher or principal or parent determine what's normal and abnormal among the teenagers? Looking back with hindsight is misleading, one only sees possible signs in light of the final outcome. Without knowledge of the outcome they were only signs of normal behavior, or perhaps better to say normal, teen misbehavior.

7. The fallout.

7a. The organizations and individuals (county sheriff and school district, pro and con gun control interests, individuals and families involved, and all others) are already preparing for the onslaught of legalities and lawsuits, no doubt. Some lawyers, like the news media, seem to thrive on these tragic events.

7b. The State, from the Governor down to the prosecutor, will find someone to charge with some form of criminal act. The phrase, "A tragic crime has be committed and someone will be found guilty," comes to mind. To bad society as a whole can not be put on trial.

7c. The news media will use their coverage of this event in self-promotionals as to how much better they are than their competitors.

7d. Tabloid journalism will exploit every aspect of the event.

7e. The box office for violent movies will continue to thrive in their own way. Advertisers for violent television shows and movies will continue to thrive in their own way. Violent video game designers and manufacturers will continue to thrive in their own way.

7f. Politicians will use the event to whatever advantage they see fit, good, bad, or indifferent.

7g. Pro and con gun control will continue to be political issue without any real difference.

7h. The lesser tragic events will continue to happen virtually unnoticed for a few years, then there'll be another explosive event.

7i. The search for the real and genuine causes leading to such a violent mindset in individuals will be ignored.

Columbine Crisis Group Thursday April 29, 1999

A. To John and all others:

Your hard work and efforts in maintaining this Discussion Group is greatly appreciated. Perhaps doubly so considering this tragedy is as much an emotional drain on all of you. Thank You.

B. Discussion Group Archive:

I've found posts that indicate you are preserving memorial images and words. Are there plans to include these Discussion Group postings as well? I'm barely able to keep up with them, half I've not gotten to yet. I think they might be others who would want to study them later.

C. Among the Postings:

There's Golden Nuggets and Precious Gemstones of Wisdom among the rubble of destruction. Therein lies signs of hope and future. Two or three I've found this morning: Juanita Bainter's thoughts about graduation, Tues Apr 27; Tracy Brandt thoughts about parenting, Sun Apr 25; Jeff Gitchel's response to Tracy's posting, Wed Apr 28. I'm sure others have found many more.

D. "NO MEDIA WILL BE ALLOWED ON JEFFCO PROPERTY"

That's from the main Jeffco School page, I think. It made me think how the news media needs to be bannished from these types of happenings. I've no respect left for the news media, havent any for many years (decades). If it werent for the images of the memorials, tributes and other touching moments, they wouldnt be missed.

"Thank you Lord, for the better uses of the Internet, Amen"

E. The Cafeteria Tape:

This is for the District Attorney, other legal authorities or any who might know. Are there efforts being made to keep this OUT of the news media hands? Permanently? Can the Colorado Judicial system put a gag order against its use? I sure do hope so. Definitely dont need anymore stinking, tabloid journalism.

F. h.s. the shock somethinganother:

He's the trash and garbage among the rubble in news media.

G. Memorial:

I assume there are plans for some kind of permanent memorial for Columbine. Anyone have any thoughts or feelings about a national memorial for all such past tragedies? Man, does that make a sad, sad statement on the current condition of American society.

I seem to remember another flare up of school shootings in the late 1980s, anyone else remember that? Anyone have a history of these things?

Columbine Crisis Group Thursday April 29, 1999

I can see how it was partly because of an obsessive behavior disorder among both groups (teen cliches), or all groups involved.

Most of the initial talk was about the division between them, an obsessive desire to be different from each other, some how extra unique. It seems like over the years each generation of high school students need to be a little be more extreme than the previous.

Teen cliches. Most seem to jump on the violent movies. They use to be movies that *glorified(?)* high school cliche life. It's been years since I've gone to movies, I dont know if they're still such as those.

But all that is just one part.

The other was individually, an obsession with a teenlife sytle, and games. Such it was with Dungeon when it first came out, role playing games. I dont think it makes much difference whether its violent or not. It's the obsessive behavior they cause. I dont know anything about the games they played. Where they role playing types?

Were they evil? Was the act evil? Did they become insane? I'm no psychologist or psychiatist, perhaps I look for too simple of an answer. I just think their obsession took over to the point they no longer controlled it. Or no longer cared.

And still, there remains the questions: What do we learn from this tragedy to prevent some others? What can we improve on defensively when they happen?