Mistys Bonus Question-Where did this 'seal' come from?

subtitled-Do not fear Self-chins and Self-squirrels

Dam side Dam is Black
Her dam:chocolate
sire:tort
grand sire White RE
grand Dam : Blue
grand sire: RE White
grand dam : chocolate tort
GG sire RE white
GG dam RE White
gg sire pointed white
gg Dam Blue Tort
GG sire RE white
GG Dam RE White
GG sire Chocolate
GG Dm Fawn
Sire side:
Sire Chocolate
Dam : chocolate Chin
Gsire : chocolate
GDam :Cinnomon
Gsire : Lilac Chinchilla
GDam :RE White
GGSire :chocolate
GGDam :tort
GGSire:cream
GGDAM : cinnomon
GGsire : chocolate opal ??
GGdam : wild agouti (chestnut)
GGsire :RE White
GGDam : Opal

The question is where did the Seal come from ? also in this litter was a blue eyed chocolate and 2 chocolate Doe's. 99 litter same mating tort and chocolate doe's !

OK, With this question, you have to take establish what is known about each rabbits genetic code before you can figure out what is possible or what isn't possible. When you do this, always start with the last known generation...you cannot go to far back with this, the more you know the better. First start by determining the sires genetic code, look at the last pair of rabbits on the sires side of the pedigree, in this case, both are REWs, so little can be known about the genotypes of REWs, the best you can do here is to fill in the C genes, as the other genes could be anything.

??-??-cc-??-??

Now look at the offspring of the pair...the offspring of a REW X REW will not tell you much about the genetic background of the rabbit, if you can follow the pedigree back far enough, you can often find a colored rabbit which these REWs were descended from and fill in some of the "holes".

Next, go on to the 2nd pair on the sires pedigree, in this case it is a pointed white by a blue tort (I assume that the pointed white is a "black" pointed white, as opposed to a chocolate, lilac or blue pointed white--if you have a blue, chocolate or lilac pointed white, it should be noted as such on the pedigree. Here's what you know about a black pointed white

aa-B?-c(h)?-D?-E?

and figure out what is known about the blue tort

aa-B?-C?-dd-ee

Now, look at the offspring of the pointed white by the blue tort...in this case it's a blue, and therefore you know that BOTH parents must carry the "self" gene as well as the "dilute" gene, so no new information is known about the blue tort by looking at the blue torts offspring BUT, you do get to fill in one black on the pointed whites genetic code

aa-B?-c(h)-Dd-ee

Now, move on to the next pair of rabbits on the pedigree, in this case the next pair is also REW X REW, so the same thing applies as in the first pair of rabbits, Glenna Huffman in her book called Color Coat genetics, describes REWs as a "colored" rabbit covered by a white sheet. Meaning that there is nearly a full set of genes, but they are hiding underneath the REW gene. The only exception is in the "C" series, the rabbit ONLY has the cc genes in that position. But could be an "almost chestnut" to an "almost lilac tort".

Go on to the next pair, in this case, it's a chocolate X fawn. Figure out the code for the chocolate

aa-bb-C?-D?-E?

and then the fawn. There's always a problem when you come across a "fawn" on a pedigree, as the term "fawn" means different colors genetically in different breeds...with the netherland dwarfs a "fawn" is a "blue orange" or a "dilute orange". In the angora breed a "fawn" (I think--but will have to double check) is genetically a "chocolatized fawn"...both similar genetically, and it usually won't matter a great deal which genetic code you use.

A?-bb-C?-dd-ee

Now look at the offspring and see if there are any clues to help you with either the fawn or the chocolates pedigree. The offspring here is a chocolate tort....a chocolate tort has 3 recessive genes which must've been donated by both parents..the "self" gene, the "chocolate" gene and the "tort" gene...each parent must either be or carry each of these genes...so, you can fill in a couple of holes in the chocolate X fawn pair.

aa-bb-C?-D?-Ee
Aa-bb-C?-D?-ee

Then go on to the next row, which is our first REW out of our pair of REWs, this time the REW was bred to a colored rabbit, so that you will know at least a few of the genes that this REW is hiding--in this case the REW helped produce a tort....a tort has to have both the self gene, and the tort gene from both it's parents...so, from this you might be able to look at your REW as a REW hiding underneath a tort....so, from this you can fill in the REW (parent of the tort), just a couple holes

a?-??-cc-??-e?

OK if you've really been paying attention, you'll notice that this genetic code is "wrong", a rabbit that has a self gene in the A position and a tort gene in the E position must be homozygous for these genes...so the REW would have to be aa-??-cc-??-ee OK, OK, you slipped me up on that one....you think? Wrong, think about this for a minute, what if the REW were an agouti CARRYING the self gene....the REW could've donated the self gene to the tort instead of the agouti gene, the other self gene could've come from the rabbit bred to the REW therefore creating a tort. But, you also have to see what the REW was bred to and see if this is a possibility. In this case the REW was bred to a blue and produced the tort. So, all you get to know about the REW is that he has thrown a self gene and a tort gene AND a REW gene to the tort offspring. So the REW code stands...for now a genetic "mess".

?a-??-cc-??-?e

OK, now figure out the genetic code for the blue

aa-B?-C?-dd-E?

and look at the Blue X REWs offspring and see what you can find out about the blue from his tort offspring, and you can go ahead and fill in that this blue is carrying the tort gene and that's about it.

aa-B?-C?-dd-Ee

Now, turn around and look at the blues parent's--you have a bit of their genetic code above, they were the pointed white and the blue tort....so from the blue's parents, you know that the blue has to carry either the himi or the REW gene from the pointed white, you know that the pointed white has in the "C" position c(h)? and that question mark could be either another c(h) or it could be a c (or REW) gene...and the blue tort isn't much help...you know that the Blue offspring of a blue tort has to carry the tort gene, but you knew that already by looking at the tort offspring of the blue. Now, here's where things can get a bit deep....go back to the pointed white and the blue tort...parents of the blue, since both these rabbits produced a blue...both the pointed white AND the blue tort must have or carry the self genes and the dilute genes, so go look at the genetic code for the pointed white and the blue tort and see if you can learn anything about either rabbit and you find that yes, you can! The pointed white must be carrying the blue or dilute gene, so add that gene to the pointed whites genetic code.

aa-B?-c(h)?-DdE?

But, you don't learn anything about the blue torts code from this. So then the next pair of rabbits is the second REW X REW breeding, so with this, you look at what the REW produced when bred to the colored rabbit, in this case the REW was bred to a chocolate tort and produced a chocolate, so you know that this REW is hiding the self gene (a), the chocolate gene (b), and the tort gent (e).

?a-?b-cc-??-e?

and that's all you can do for that rabbit--for now. Then the chocolate tort that is out of the chocolate X fawn. A chocolate tort is recessive to both the chocolate and the fawn parent, so you aren't going to learn alot about this chocolate tort, so you'll have to go by his phenotype alone (phenotype is the color that the rabbit IS on the outside).

aa-bb-C?-D?ee

Then go back to the parents of the chocolate tort...our chocolate X fawn, and see if you can learn anything about them from the genotype of our chocolate tort. And you see that you can fill in one hole on the chocolates genotype, you know that to produce a tort, that chocolate must be carrying the tort gene.

aa-bb-C?-D?-Ee

And you also know that the fawn, must be carrying a self gene that she must've donated to the chocolate, so you can add that to the fawns genotype

Aa-bb-C?-D?-ee

OK, now you can go to the next row, which we've already worked on a bit, there's that tort out of the REW X Blue, here's what you have so far for this tort bucks genetic code aa-bb-C?-D?-Ee and you get to fill in a blank here as you know that if a rabbit has a REW parent that rabbit will always carry the REW gene

aa-bb-Cc-D?-Ee

Then go on to the chocolate doe that is out of the REW X chocolate tort, we don't have a code for this chocolate doe started yet, so we write the genetic code for chocolate

aa-bb-C?-D?-E?

and since this chocolate has a REW parent, we can add the REW gene to this genotype, and since the doe also has a chocolate tort parent, we can add the tort gene to the genotype also

aa-bb-Cc-D?-Ee

Now, you can look at this chocolates REW parent, because I see something that looks promising here....the chocolate torts "E" series, is always ee, and to get a chocolate, one of the parent's has to donate the big E gene--the non-extension gene, so you can fill in a hole on the REW --parent of the chocolate doe

?a-?b-cc-??-Ee

REWs are tough to work with, this one works out pretty well, this REW looks like he tried to be a black or a chocolate--but is hiding under that white sheet!
Now, we are down to the black rabbit offspring of the chocolate X tort--the black rabbit is aa-B?-C?-D?-E? and looking at the parents, we see that this black rabbit has to be carrying the chocolate gene and the tort gene, so here's his genetic code that we know.

aa-Bb-C?-D?-Ee

So, we are done with half, if you are still with me and you still remember the question, which was we're trying to find out where a seal came from. We'll go on to the other half of the pedigree, and work that side the same way. We'll go to the sires side, the sire is chocolate. But we'll start at the back and work our way to him. the letters in bold type are spaces that were filled in by looking at the parents and the offspring of the rabbit--if you cannot figure out where these "hidden" genes came from me, email me and i'll break it down for you. First is a chocolate by a tort, so put down the genotypes for these 2 colors.

aa-bb-C?-D?-E?
aa-Bb-C?-D?-ee

Then do the same for the next pair, a cream X a cinnamon.

A?-bb-C?-dd-ee
A?-bb-C?-D?-E?

a chocolate opal X a chestnut, OK, I have to laugh at this one, a chocolate opal? What the heck is that? Well, if you think about it, a "chocolatized" opal would also be known as a lynx, we could've called this Lynx a "dilute cinnamon" or we could've called him a "blue cinnamon", or even more fun a "chocolate and blue chestnut", but enough "fun with variety names", let's get this "chocolate opals genotype" along with his chestnut girlfriend.

A?-bb-C?-dd-E?
A?-Bb-C?-D-E?

and the next pair...a REW X an opal (just a regular opal...not a blue chestnut?...hehe--sorry)

??-??-cc-??-??
A?-B?-Cc-dd-E?

OK, on to the next row, a chocolate offspring from a chocolate X tort.

aa-bb-C?-D?-Ee

And the cinnamon (also known as chocolate chestnut)

Aa-bb-C?-Dd-E?

and a lilac chin X a REW.

A?-bb-c(chd)?-dd-E?
??-?b-cc-Dd-??

and the next row a chocolate X chocolate chin

aa-bb-C?-D?-E?
Aa-bb-c(chd)?-Dd-E?

And then the sire of the litter, the chocolate

aa-bb-C?-D?-E?

Now, we have to go back up and find our code for the black dam of the litter.

aa-Bb-C?-D?-Ee

So we need to look at the C genes to find the shaded genes, and we find that there can't possibly be 2 shaded genes.. remember we need a shaded gene from BOTH parents to create a seal..so that won't work. What next? We can look at other possibilities...one that i've recently become familiar with is a self chin...a regular chin is an agouti animal...if the chin inherits the self gene instead of the agouti, then he will come out looking like either a poor black or a seal!! Because he has no agouti gene to cause him to have rings! The chin gene could've came from the chocolate parent, since we don't know what gene he inherited from the chocolate chin parent of his...it had to be either the chin gene, the shaded gene, the himi gene or the REW gene. And the black parent could ONLY be CC or Cc, so if I were a betting person, i'd say that this "seal" is genetically a self chin. But, if seals are a recognized variety, then this self chin could be shown as a seal...it would only matter when you go to breed him, he will not breed based on what he looks like, he will breed based on what he IS! So, i'd show him as a seal, but breed him as a self chin! Just to double check what IS the possible codes for this "seal", aa-Bb-C?-D?-E? possibly a poor black? Another possibility aa-Bb-c(chd)?-D?-E? --there's our self chin, but wait a minute...if we take a good long look at our pedigrees...couldn't the chocolate parent be carrying the shaded gene AS WELL AS the black? Well, we've already established that the black cannot be carrying the shaded gene--which would be a requirement for a true seal. If you are saying why not? The black rabbits genotype is C? we don't know what the rabbit is carrying!! well...look further back at this chocolates parents...we DO know that this black rabbits parents are Cc both of them the black rabbit is either CC or Cc--there is no shaded gene in that particular rabbit. Go back to the chocolate parent of the litter...in his C series, he had to get the C gene from his chocolate parent which meant that the other gene had to come from the chocolate chin and that could be the chin gene, the shaded gene, himi or REW. So, if you mix and match these genes up and figure out what might look like a seal--and what is possible. Here's the genetic code that we can PROVE

aa-Bb-??-D?-E?

This "seal" apparently inherited BOTH parents hidden (recessive) genes, it's not common, but happens often enough that you should be watching for it. What you have to do is plug all the possibilities into that C position and see what "fits". What we can determine is that the rabbit "probably" did not inherit the full color "C" gene from either parent--as it's not a black. and since the black parent of the seal offspring is either Cc or CC, we know that the black parent has to be Cc and that the seal offspring has to have inherited the REW gene-c, so if he had inherited the shaded gene from the chocolate, he would've been a nicely shaded siamese sable c(chl)c. If he'd inherited a himi gene, he'd have been a black pointed white--with poor points I might add--remember? The REW gene is incompletely dominant and will "blend" the himi and REW into a faded himi color on the points? If he'd inherited the REW gene from both parents, he'd have been a REW himself...the only possibility here is that chin gene! So, I think that we could safely say that this seal is genetically a self chin that carries the chocolate gene, and the fact that she mentioned a "blue eyed chocolate", I have never had them, but have heard that the chin gene + the self gene will create blue eyes!

The only way to solve this puzzle is to breed this 'self chin' or 'seal' to something and see what genes will be thrown. You can do this in 2 ways. First, you can breed to verify a 'self chin' gene. I'd do this by breeding to an otter that is carrying either a shaded, himi or REW. Something that is known to be recessive to the chin gene. It won't help breeding to a true chin or to an otter carrying the chin gene, as if the offspring is a chin, you won't know which parent donated the chin gene. The other problem is that in the angora breed, the tan gene a(t), doesn't exist--this will only work with netherland dwarf breeds. So, what else can you do? Well, you could breed the self chin to a REW that you know carries the agouti gene (I have a REW out of a chin X chin steel, that I might try this with), if you get true chins in the breeding...problem solved. If not, then you are back to square one. You could attempt to breed for the seal gene...remember a seal is c(chl)c(chl), all you need to do is split these genes and the most obvious way we netherland dwarf breeders do it is by breeding these seals to a REW (NOT out of agouti parents) or himi. If you get a litter of nicely shaded buns, then you know these are seals (which doesn't help my case here, but then NOTHING is impossible). Problems can arise if you do indeed have the chin gene--if you breed a self chin to a REW or himi, you will likely get MORE self chins, and perpetuate your problems. With angoras (since they have no tan gene), you can breed to an agouti out of REW and hope for chins...finding the perfect test breeding animal can be as much of a challenge as finding the perfect typed animal! This agouti test breeder should have as many of the holes filled in as possible--you would absolutely want AA. If you use an Aa animal, you might expect to find more chins AND more self chins in the offspring. Recently, in my rabbitry, I have produced some 'self squirrels'. I REGISTERED them as LILACS....they look like poor blues or 'not-quite right' lilacs. If I looked real close, i'd see a blue seal--but, looking even closer, at the pedigree...I see they cannot be a true blue seal. Curiously, these 'self-squirrels' have nearly brown eyes.

Recently, at a show I had a netherland dwarf breeder, who've i've seen around for 10 years or so, come up to look at my 'lilacs'--she told me she'd never heard of a self squirrel....SORRY! Just because you never heard of a self squirrel doesn't mean they don't exist! Figuring out mendelian squares is something we learned about in 10th grade biology. Some breeders follow the rule that you MUST force any oddball rabbit to BE a showable color (it seems to be a requirement on most pedigrees--and highly unlikely pedigrees are what I love to pick apart). If they are good enough look-alikes to show--then by all means SHOW THEM. But, please make a note on the pedigree for future breeders..please, please, please. I know there are an awful lot of people who don't understand what they are doing and will not purchase a black rabbit that is out of steel, (don't want any unwanted steels showing up in future litters) or will not buy a rabbit that is listed as self-squirrel. Wouldn't have been SO much easier for me to play ignorant and sell this self-squirrel as a poor lilac or a poor blue and let the buyer deal with the pending genetic mess? That seems to be the routine thing to do in the rabbit world. But, I am taking a stand. None of my rabbits shall go to uneducated breeders ANYMORE...if a self-squirrel scares you (and it shouldn't), then EDUCATE YOURSELF. There are many good books on color coat genetics. This, to me, is inexcusable. I equate it with not knowing your rabbit breeds standard...but, breeding blindly and hoping for some showable, typey animals! (Would you breed a holland lop that LOOKED like a netherland dwarf to a netherland dwarf?) By knowing these things, you will be able to confidently breed your 'lilac' to a REW and look at the scewed faces on your friends when you tell them you are breeding for chins and squirrels! It's not magic, it's science...I rarely outbreed anymore--there are just too many self chins parading on pedigrees as siamese sables--seals listed as black, self squirrels listed as lilacs. Every time I outbreed, it is 2 years determining genotype. Recently, I found a siamese smoke pearl (registered, from a very good breeder, too) that was clearly a blue sable point (not a showable color, by the way). The parents were sable point X tort!

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