Claire's Bonus Question
Here's a bonus question. You may want to print it out as it might take a while to figure out. In this question you will use everything that you possibly can...no information is useless, some information will not help you much but, with this question you will use everything that there is to figure out the genotype of your animals.
Steel buck--(parents are chestnut steel doe X a nicely marked smoke pearl martin buck)
Bred to:
Lilac otter doe--(parents are chocolate otter X a blue)
Bonus Question #1
****Figure out the possible offspring from the steel buck bred to the lilac otter doe****
Hint #1
The steel buck bred to an orange doe produced orange and black steel.
Hint #2:
The steel buck bred to a blue otter doe produced a nicely marked chocolate himalayan.
Hint #3:
The blue doe (that is the lilac otter does mother) is out of tort X REW.
Hint #4:
The lilac otter does last litter was born dead, the colors of the litter looked like their was a chestnut and a lilac tort in the litter.
Hint #5:
The lilac otter doe bred to a chestnut (out of REW X black himi) produced a nice dark chinchilla bunny.
Hint #6:
The chocolate otter (the lilac does father) is out of a pure line chin X chestnut.
Hint #7:
You breed the nicely marked chocolate himalayan doe (the same one that is the offspring of the steel buck X blue otter in hint #2 to a REW and get a litter chocolate himalyans, black himalayans, blue himalayans and lilac himalayans--all poorly marked, you aren't able to use any of the himalayans and sell them as pets.
Answer:
OK, this is a long, involved genetic problem and if you can get through this one--you can get through ANY!! We'll go over this step by step...this is how you will work out any genetic questions.
First-Start with what is known about the parents of the litter. In this case the Buck of the litter is a chestnut steel. You also can't see it, but you know that because the steel had a smoke pearl martin parent that he has to have a dilute gene in the D series.
A?-B?-C?-Dd-E(s)?
That is what you can fill in just from his phenotype (the way he looks), you will always start by what is known about the rabbit.
The doe of the litter is a lilac otter doe, this is what you know about her:
a(t)?-bb-C?-dd-E?But I told you that this lilac otters parents are chocolate otter and blue...by knowing this you can fill in one more hole in her genotypea(t)a-bb-C?-dd-E?
Sometimes this is as much of a genotype on the parents as you will get, that leaves 2 big holes as you don't know yet what either animal carries in that all important recessive C position. More surprises on the way....
Here's what you can find out from hint #1--The steel buck bred to an orange produced an orange..since orange is a non-extension and most recessive gene in the E series, this is what you have found out from that hint.
A?-B?-C?-Dd-E(s)e
What can you know about hint #2? Hint #2 seems pretty useless at a glance, but some of the information will be needed to verify other information later, and it does help you fill in a couple of spots..but, this is what you could assume from this hint. He produced a chocolate offspring, so you know that he carries chocolate.Aa-Bb-Cc(h) or c-Dd-E(s)e
It would almost be safe to assume that since the chocolate himalayan offspring was nicely marked (and not washed out) that the steel buck carries the himi gene..but, you can never assume anything with the c(h) or c genes...as modifier genes may also lighten or darken the points also.
Hint #3--Also seems quite useless, as you will not be able to fill in a single hole with this information...however you will be able to use this hint to verify some information later.
Hint #4-Here's where hint #3 comes into play. You know that by looking at the colors of the lilac torts dead litter that there was something in the litter that looked like a tort...and since it is entirely possible that the lilac otter carries the tort gene (hint #3 told you that there was a tort in this does pedigree)
a(t)a-bb-C?-dd-Ee
Hint #5--WHOA where did that chin gene come from? OK, now you're going to have to take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. You know that the chestnut that fathered the litter with the chin could not have donated the chin gene as his C series is known. He is a chestnut (C) with a REW parent (c)...his C series will look like this Cc...he has no chin gene to donate...it must've came from the lilac doe...where it came from nobody knows...you will often have that happen. But if you go back over everything you will find that the lilac otters father (the chocolate otter) must've been the chin gene donor. As that is the only possible animal that has an unknown in the recessive C position.
a(t)a-bb-Cc(chd)-dd-EeYay! You know this does full genotype and it will never change!
Back to the buck--he still has a holey genotype...hint #6--OK, THAT'S where the chin gene came from! That just verifies what you already knew. Nothing new to add from that.
Hint #7--You get nothing but himalayans in the litter, and poor ones at that! Do you think that you've wasted 4 months...no, you have can porbably assume that the steel buck carries the himi gene and NOT the REW...the only way to be 100% sure would be to breed him to a REW, but at this point you don't need to.
Aa-Bb-Cc(h)-Dd-E(s)eThere, you are done, you now know exactly what you will get from the lilac otter X the steel buck! But, how do you put this information into actual numbers or percentages? There is a simple formula that you can use.We'll start with the A series...the steel buck is Aa and the lilac otter doe is a(t)a...so each rabbit will donate either gene to each bunny, so 50% of the time the steel will donate the A gene and the other 50% of the time he will throw the a gene to his offspring. Same with the otter doe, only she will throw the a(t) gene 50% of the time. Look at the table below:
25% of all offspring will be Aa(t), 25% will be a(t)a, 25% will be Aa and 25% will be aa.
Which means in plain english that you will get 50% agouti-A, 25% tan-a(t), and 25% selfs-a
Save this on a clean piece of paper and go on to the B series. You will use the square and figure out the ratio of black genes and chocolate genes.
This is easier, there are only 3 possibilities. Bb and bb, so 50% of the offspring will be B and 50% will be b.
| C | c(h) |
|---|
| C | CC | Cc(h) |
|---|
| c(chd) | Cc(chd) | c(chd)c(h) |
|---|
75% of the offspring will be C and 25% will be chin c(chd)
Like the B series, the D series will give you 50% of each D and d.
This will give you 50% steel, 25% E and 25% ee bunnies. Now you can put together all this information and come up with actual colors and numbers.
Since 50% of the litter will be Agouti, 25% tan and 25% selfs
and 50% will be B and 50% will be b...go ahead and start filling things in don't worry about the recessive genes that the bunnies may inherit, they are not important at this time.
AB
a(t)B
aB
Ab
a(t)b
ab
And keep on with all 5 series of genes in this way.
ABC
a(t)BC
aBC
AbC
a(t)bC
abC
ABc(chd)
a(t)Bc(chd)
aBc(chd)
Abc(chd)
a(t)bc(chd)
abc(chd)
Add the D series on to this mess....
ABCD
a(t)BCD
aBCD
AbCD
a(t)bCD
abCD
ABc(chd)D
a(t)Bc(chd)D
aBc(chd)D
Abc(chd)D
a(t)bc(chd)D
abc(chd)D
ABCd
a(t)BCd
aBCd
AbCd
a(t)bCd
abCd
ABc(chd)d
a(t)Bc(chd)d
aBc(chd)d
Abc(chd)d
a(t)bc(chd)d
abc(chd)d
And if you are still alive and with us at this point add the E series.
ABCDE(s)
a(t)BCDE(s)
aBCDE(s)
AbCDE(s)
a(t)bCDE(s)
abCDE(s)
ABc(chd)DE(s)
a(t)Bc(chd)DE(s)
aBc(chd)DE(s)
Abc(chd)DE(s)
a(t)bc(chd)DE(s)
abc(chd)DE(s)
ABCdE
a(t)BCdE
aBCdE
AbCdE
a(t)bCdE
abCdE
ABc(chd)dE
a(t)Bc(chd)dE
aBc(chd)dE
Abc(chd)dE
a(t)bc(chd)dE
abc(chd)dE
ABCDE
a(t)BCDE
aBCDE
AbCDE
a(t)bCDE
abCDE
ABc(chd)DE
a(t)Bc(chd)DE
aBc(chd)DE
Abc(chd)DE
a(t)bc(chd)DE
abc(chd)DE
ABCdE(s)
a(t)BCdE(s)
aBCdE(s)
AbCdE(s)
a(t)bCdE(s)
abCdE(s)
ABc(chd)dE(s)
a(t)Bc(chd)dE(s)
aBc(chd)dE(s)
Abc(chd)dE(s)
a(t)bc(chd)dE(s)
abc(chd)dE(s)
ABCDe
a(t)BCDe
aBCDe
AbCDe
a(t)bCDe
abCDe
ABc(chd)De
a(t)Bc(chd)De
aBc(chd)De
Abc(chd)De
a(t)bc(chd)De
abc(chd)De
ABCde
a(t)BCde
aBCde
AbCde
a(t)bCde
abCde
ABc(chd)de
a(t)Bc(chd)de
aBc(chd)de
Abc(chd)de
a(t)bc(chd)de
abc(chd)deOK, i'm feeling sorry for me and sorrier for you at this point. Because there's still lots to do to translate this into actual colors and percentages. Start with the first possible color. ABCDE(s)--well, first of all you know that will be a chestnut steel. But how do you figure out how many you will get in a litter? You'll have to get out your calculator and get ready to do your math. There's a 50% chance of the A gene 50% chance of B, 75% chance of C, 50% chance of D, and 50% chance of E(s), you know this by the work with the squares that you did above. Multiply these percentages together. 0.5 X 0.5 X 0.75 X 0.5 X 0.5 that gives you 0.046875 for the total, what does that mean....that means that you will get 4.6875 percent chestnut steel in the litter so add that information to your long list of posibilities, you can round it up or down to the nearest hundredth if you like.
ABCDE(s)--Chestnut steel-4.7%And do the same to the rest of the color possibilities:a(t)BCDE(s)--Black Otter steeled--(0.25 X 0.5 X 0.5 X 0.5 X 0.5=0.015625)--1.6%
aBCDE(s)--Black (hidden) steel--1.6%
AbCDE(s)--Cinnamon Steel--4.7%
a(t)bCDE(s)--Chocolate otter steeled--1.6%
abCDE(s)--Chocolate steel (hidden)--2.3%
ABc(chd)DE(s)--Chinchilla steel--1.6%
a(t)Bc(chd)DE(s)--Black silver marten steeled--0.8%
aBc(chd)DE(s)--black self chin steeled--0.8%
Abc(chd)DE(s)--Chocolate chin steeled--1.6%
a(t)bc(chd)DE(s)--Chocolate silver marten steeled--0.8%
abc(chd)DE(s)--self chocolate chin steeled--0.8%
ABCdE--Opal--2.3%
a(t)BCdE--Blue otter--1.2%
aBCdE--Blue--1.2%
AbCdE--Lynx--2.3%
a(t)bCdE--Lilac otter--1.2%
abCdE--Lilac--1.2%
ABc(chd)dE--Lilac Chinchilla--0.8%
a(t)Bc(chd)dE--Blue silver marten--0.4%
aBc(chd)dE--chocolate self chin--0.4%
Abc(chd)dE--Squirrel--0.8%
a(t)bc(chd)dE--Lilac silver marten--0.4%
abc(chd)dE--Lilac self chin--0.4%
ABCDE--Chestnut--2.3%
a(t)BCDE--Black Otter--1.2%
aBCDE--Black--1.2%
AbCDE--Cinnamon--2.3%
a(t)bCDE--Chocolate otter--1.2%
abCDE--Chocolate--1.2%
ABc(chd)DE--Chinchilla--0.8%
a(t)Bc(chd)DE--Black silver marten--0.4%
aBc(chd)DE--Self black chin--0.4%
Abc(chd)DE--Chocolate chinchilla--0.8%
a(t)bc(chd)DE--Chocolate Silver Marten--0.4%
abc(chd)DE--Self chocolate chin--0.4%
ABCdE(s)--Opal steel--4.7%
a(t)BCdE(s)--Blue otter steeled--2.3%
aBCdE(s)--Blue steel (hidden)--2.3%
AbCdE(s)--4.7% lynx steel
a(t)bCdE(s)--lilac otter steeled--2.3%
abCdE(s)--lilac steel (hidden)--2.3%
ABc(chd)dE(s)--Squirrel steel--1.6%
a(t)Bc(chd)dE(s)--Blue silver marten steeled--0.8%
aBc(chd)dE(s)--blue self chin steel (hidden)--0.8%
Abc(chd)dE(s)--Lilac chin steel--1.6%
a(t)bc(chd)dE(s)--lilac silver marten steeled--0.4%
abc(chd)dE(s)--lilac self chin steel (hidden)--0.8%
ABCDe--Orange--2.3%
a(t)BCDe--black otter tort--1.2%
aBCDe--Tort--1.2%
AbCDe--Chocolatized orange--2.3%
a(t)bCDe--Chocolate otter tort--1.2%
abCDe--Chocolate tort--1.2%
ABc(chd)De--black pearl??--0.8%
a(t)Bc(chd)De--non-extended black silver marten??--0.4%
aBc(chd)De--self chin tort something er other--0.4%
Abc(chd)De--chocolate agouti tort??--0.8%
a(t)bc(chd)De--Chocolate silver marten non extended--0.4%
abc(chd)De--self chocolate chin non-extended--0.4%
ABCde--Fawn--2.3%
a(t)BCde--Blue otter tort--1.2%
aBCde--Blue tort--1.2%
AbCde--Chocolatized fawn--2.3%
a(t)bCde--Lilac otter tort--1.2%
abCde--Lilac tort--1.2%
ABc(chd)de--squirrel non-extended--0.8%
a(t)Bc(chd)de--chocolate silver marten non-extended--0.4%
aBc(chd)de--blue self chin non-extended--0.4%
Abc(chd)de--lilac chin non-extended--0.8%
a(t)bc(chd)de--lilac silver marten non-extended--0.4%
abc(chd)de--lilac self chin tort--0.4%Now what can you do with this information, well there's a lot, you can figure up by adding the percentages the number of non-showable colors that you might have to deal with....I have the non-showable colors in bold to make it easier. By adding up the numbers you will get 74.8% non-showable colors by this breeding. So that's alot of pet bunnies that you will be looking at. 3 out of every 4 bunnies will be wasted...if you were to factor in the dwarfing gene and the big, uglies, you may not get a single showable bunny for 2 or 3 litters.....if you are thinking that you will be breeding for more lilac otters...don't waste your time, if the lilac otter has 4 live bunnies in every litter....you'd have to breed this pair 25 times before you got a single lilac otter. If you rebred the lilac doe the day that she has bunnies, and can keep breeding her in this manner....you'd be 2 years possibly getting a single lilac otter...so when you say you are breeding for this or that...make sure that's what you may get! As at first glance the steel buck carries the chocolate and blue genes necesarry for a lilac otter offspring....but, as you can see, it won't work out that way. That's only theory...you may get extremely lucky and get one in the first breeding, but if you bred this pair 25 times, you would probably come up with percentages very close to those that are actually listed. Would I do this breeding? NO, no matter how nice a type the bunnies might have...the facts show that getting a show quality lilac otter from this pair is slim to none..and slim don't visit my rabbitry very often!! I have a list on my website of all known genotypes with the genotypes and the color name--my best guesses....if you need help converting these codes into colors. However much I hate to admit this...I did breed this particular chestnut steel buck to a black doe that carried aa-Bb-C(chd)-Dd-EE and came out with 2 live bunnies, a squirrel steel and a very, very nice chestnut steel...I was lucky. Steel to black is supposed to be a GOOD combination to make...as you see it is much more involved than saying that any one color is good to breed to any other. I will post the results of the 2nd breeding later this year. I have to come back and double check all these calculations...if you find an error let me know!****Bonus Question #2****
Is chocolate otter X smoke pearl a good cross to make? I think that if you ask 100 people....100 of them would say no. Is it always a bad cross?
The answer is NO....here's the genotype for the chocolate otter in question.
a(t)a-bb-Cc(h)-Dd-EE
and here's the genotype for the smoke pearl in question.a(t)a-BB-c(chl)c(h)-dd-EE
Using the squares and percentages, figure it out...I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!
| a(t) | a |
|---|
| a | a(t)a | a(t)a |
|---|
| a | a(t)a | aa |
|---|
When you get to the B series, you see that the smoke pearl martin doesn't carry the b or chocolate gene, you can skip that calculation...all bunnies will be Bb.
| C | c(h) |
|---|
| c(chl) | Cc(chl) | c(chl)c(h) |
|---|
| c(h) | Cc(h) | c(h)c(h) |
|---|
Here's the D series.
And like the B series, EE is the only possibility here.
So you will get 75% a(t) and 25% a
100% will be B
50% C, 25% c(chl) and 25% c(h)
50% D and 50% d
100% EE
Here's the possible bunnies from this not-so-good cross
a(t)BCDE--Black Otter
a(t)BCdE--Blue otter
a(t)Bc(chl)DE-Sable marten (nicely shaded)
a(t)Bc(chl)dE-Smoke pearl martin (nicely shaded)
a(t)Bc(h)DE-black himi marten
a(t)Bc(h)dE-blue himi marten
aBCDE-Black
aBCdE-Blue
aBc(chl)DE-Siamese Sable(nicely shaded)
aBc(chl)dE-Smoke Pearl (nicely shaded)
aBc(h)DE-Black himalayan
aBc(h)dE-Blue himalayan
Hold on! Himi martens aren't recognized! I can't do this cross....figure out the percentage of each of these colors
12.5% Black otter, 12.5% blue otter, 6% sable marten, 6% smoke pearl martin, 6% black himi marten, 6% blue himi marten, 6% black, 6% blue, 3% black himalayan, 3% blue himalayan. All himalayan AND all shaded offspring will be nicely marked. You will have 12% himi martens, that's about 1 in 8 bunnies...so out of 2 litters of 4, you only will have 1 non-showable bunny and you will have 7 nicely colored bunnies to pick your winner from! I like those odds...I would do this cross. Himi martens are not useless on their own, you can put them into seals or seal martens or any shaded bunnies and get around 100% showable offspring! A better cross to make might be a black or blue otter, but if you know your genotypes of your own animals, then there isn't much that you can't work out or fix.
****Bonus Question #3****
What's my favorite color cross? Chin to black silver marten. Why? Well, up until recently the only offspring I would get is chins, squirrels, black silver martens and blue silver martens....suddenly I started getting self blacks and self blues? What's going on? Do you know? There are 2 possibilities....either both the animals carry the self aa gene or both the animals carry the c(chl) gene, at any rate, the offspring LOOK black or blue, but cannot be due to the fact that there is no full color gene from either parent to donate. These black and blue offspring are either self chins or self squirrels or they are seals or blue seals....test breeding these self looking bunnies to a himi marten would give you a quick answer as you would either get smoke pearl martins or sable martens...or if they are self chins you'd get nice black or blue silver martens. Test breeding to test breeding to a REW out of selfs may give you either nicely marked shadeds OR you could get more self chins...you might not know right away which you had. Test breeding to a REW out of agouti WOULD give you the possibility of shaded agoutis if they are seals....or you could get chins/squirrels is they are self chins. Take your himi martens from the otter x smoke cross and find out! What would THAT give you? Here's the genotype from our himi marten out of chocolate otter X smoke pearla(t)a-Bb-c(h)c(h)-Dd-EEBreed this guy to a black self chin or the black seal offspring....
You't get 50% a(t), 50% a, 100% B, c(chd) or c(chl) assuming that these self chins are homozygous (both genes are the same) for the gene in question...you'd get 100% c(chd) or c(chl), and 75% D, 25%d, and 100% E.
a(t)Bc(chd)DE
a(t)Bc(chd)dE
aBc(chd)DE
aBc(chd)dE
or if they are in fact seals this is what you'd get:
a(t)Bc(chl)DE
a(t)Bc(chl)dE
aBc(chl)DE
aBc(chl)dE
Any shaded offspring would be nicely marked, you would know the difference between the shadeds and the chins right away....so getting a single black or blue silver marten....might be proof that they are self chins....if you get more animals that "look" like self blacks or blues in the litter...that's more proof that they are self chins. However, getting 100% nicely marked shaded offspring would prove that they are in fact seals.
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