If I would have had this type of debate years ago I would probably have continued it for much longer than I have this one, having earlier had greater confidence in the power of human agency in changing hearts. But it can't be done. I do believe that it is good to be able and willing to give a reason for the hope that is in us. But beyond that there is nothing else we can do but pray. It is God who opens eyes and hearts.
This was my response to J's letter. His comments, as with many of my debate pages, are in gray.
Hello J,
Thank you for taking the time to write. I would like to respond to a few of your points, if you don't mind. You wrote:
Shalom Tom,
You remarked on an article on R's website which actually was an article I wrote and which is on my website. I therefore, would like to remark on it. I have met and talked with many many people like you and found that they are very sincere in their believes. I therefore do not doubt that you are sincere.
However, Muslims, Hindus and whatever religions you have, are all also very sincere in their believes.
As we both know, sincerity is not enough. We can be sincerely wrong. You're putting Christianity into the same category as Hinduism reveals a misunderstanding of both the New testament and your own Scriptures. Christianity is an outgrowth of the Old Testament, and was foretold then. Hinduism has no such forerunner nor prophecy. God said he would put His Law in our hearts (Compare Ezekiel 18:31 with Acts 15:8- 9, 2nd Cor. 5:17), that He would effectively atone for sin (Isaiah 53 & John 3:14- 16), defeat Satan (Gen. 3:15 & Heb. 2:14- 15). All of this was through the promised Messiah, who said, "I come... to do your will, O God" (Psalm 40:6- 8 & Hebrews 10:5- 7). But because He was obedient unto death, living a perfect sinless life, He was able to to be our Savior, able to satisfy the Father's righteous and holy demands that sin caused. He was the perfect Offering that finally and thoroughly solved the sin problem. That is why "at the name of Jesus all knees will bow." (Phil 2:10). He is the "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace" from the throne of David (Isaiah 9:6- 7). David himself calls "Lord" the One who is his Son (Son of David). See Luke 20: 41- 44, which is Jesus' referring to Psalm 110:1). Do not reject the teaching of this verse, my friend, lest you have the warning of Psalm 118:22 (Luke 20:17) happen to you:
"The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone."
Christ goes on to say (Luke 20:18):
"Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
By rejecting Christ the Messiah, not believing His claims as to who He is, you reject the chief corner stone, the very foundation of true worship of God.
Tom, in what you refer to as the Old Testament, a degenerating term used by Christianity to show that it was finished, we do not find the expression God. It was simply not known in the olden days. Somewhere in the beginning of the common era it was taken over by the Church from the pagan Teutonic deity "Gott"
In our days it is used to indicate every deity under the Sun. That is why we use the rightful name of the Creator Yahweh. The name by which He has made Himself know to us and which He ordered us to use for Him. Christianity has abandoned Him and His name and removed it from their Scriptures. So yes we are not Christians in this sense.
First, when I say "old" I do not mean to be denigrating. I use it as in the sense of "former", not "useless".
My comments about God were not about using that word. I don't require everyone to say that word when referring to the Almighty. I was just saying that Jesus Christ is plainly called God in the Old testament (as in the Isaiah passage above).
You are now arguing against your own Scriptures, which show Christ as being God. We did not learn this from paganism. Paganism tried to stamp this out of us. We learned it from the Spirit of God and from the Word of God. Christ came to fulfill the promises made in the Old Testament, the promises pointed to Him (Luke 24;27, Romans 1:2-3), but he did not make the Old Testament obsolete. I probably spend more time reading, studying and praying over the Old Testament than I do the New, probably because there is much more material there. Yes, I do know that many Christians ignore or downplay the Old Testament, but that is their loss and their fault, not mine.
Comfortable? When I became a Christian I was laughed at at work for being a "Jesus Freak". When I went to a Christian college my parents thought about getting me out and getting me de-programmed! I had no human teachers talking to me. I became a Christian in my bedroom in Germany, accepting Christ's payment for my sins, praying in the best words that I knew how to speak. And God heard my prayer.
Once again, you are not talking about me. True Christianity uses and appreciate the whole Bible. It is all inspired. You should stop asking each other what Christians believe and actually ask a Christian what he/she believes. That will help you get rid of your stereotyping. You would hate it, wouldn't you, if I said "All Jews believe so-and-so"? (Especially if it just wasn't true.)
Do you really believe this? I can cite many sources to show that the Old Testament have the same minor variations in the various copies that the New Testament does. This is an easy, though tedious, matter of manuscript study.
Yes, my friend, too true, and many Jews are turning from religion altogether and becoming agnostics and atheists. This proves ... what?
So Yahweh was praying to Yahweh in the Garden of Gethsemane? Yahweh cried out to Yahweh on the Cross, "My God, Why have You forsaken Me?"
For the sin of mankind to be atoned for, the offering had to be fully human as well as fully God. Jesus Christ, in obedience to the Father, offered up that perfect sacrifice that makes all true believers accepted in the Beloved.
Worship of Christ is worship of God, since in Him dwells all the fullness of the godhead bodily, and he is, as part of the trinity, Creator of the universe. (Col. 2:13- 22).
You said to R:
There are several pages on your site that show that we are quite far apart in our beliefs. You may have accepted a "Yashua", but He is not the Yashua of the Bible. He is called "God" even in the Old Testament. That is the plain implication of several prophetic passages. It is clear (just taking one example below from your site), that you are not Christian in your beliefs.
However, to be able to understand all this, you have first to understand to what extend Christianity has abandoned the Hebrew roots and taken on pagan roots and practises. Christianity has abandoned the message from the Hebrew Tanakh, which they call obsolete (OT), which says loud and clear that Yahweh is the Moshiya. They have taken Jesus Christ and made Him to another deity next to Yahweh who has clearly said that there is no deity besides Him.
Now most of my articles are trying to explain how this all came about and what is wrong with Christianity.
Unfortunately, when people are not inclined or driven to explore this for themselves, they stick to that were they are comfortable with. It is much easier to put the responsibility for your believes on your teachers, than take the responsibility yourself. Taking the responsibility yourself, means study Yahweh's Torah for yourself and do not follow teachers who leave big parts of the Bible out, because it does not conform with their teachings.
Yes we do place more emphasis on the Hebrew Tanakh then on the Messianic writings. From the Tanakh we have reliable copies, in the original language and it is reliable enough to make doctrines from.
Christianity calls the Messianic writings the New Testament, the old one was for the Jews only they say.
God rejected the Jews, according to them, and to them therefore much of the writings are now irrelevant. Only a few texts, which they manipulated in such a way that they fit the Church, are accepted. What you therefore call degenerative the New Testament, I refer to as the Messianic writings or Gospels and Apostolic writings. Unfortunately we do not have any reliable original copies in the original language of these manuscripts. What we have, is a mass of copies, all different from each other and manipulated to reflect Church doctrine. A doctrine made up in the early centuries to mislead and manipulate the masses. Yes I see the Messianic writings as informative and only authoritative when they agree with the Hebrew Tanakh.
Yes, to conclude, I myself and many others are not like the Christians. The challenge to others is to ask themselves how come that in the last years so many people are turning away from the polluted Christian teaching and are returning to the original roots of the Messianic believes.
Our savoir is Yahweh, who we believe is one and the same as the Jew Yeshua. Not a second person but one and the same being. The one the eternal deity in His heavenly glory, the other the same deity in human form. A form necessary to fulfil His promise of redemption. The actual redemption and delivering being done by the Heavenly eternal deity Yahweh, who can take on any forms He wishes to accomplish His goals.
We are not allowed to worship human beings. So when we worship we worship the eternal Yahweh and not His human appearance.
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