Analysis
and Creativity
Wendy
Cope
WENDY COPE is one of Britain's leading poets. Her books Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis and Serious Concerns (Faber and Faber, 1986 and 1992) are both best sellers, and she has won several awards. She began writing poetry three months after the start of her analysis. A brief, moving - and amusing - account of her analysis will soon be published in Mind Readings (Secker, 1996). The following is an excerpt from a conversation with the Editor about the contention that an analysis is bad for an artist's creativity.
When I went into analysis there weren't any questions about whether it would be bad for me as a writer because I wasn't a writer. I was completely inhibited, paralysed really. I wanted to be a writer when I was a little girl but I'd forgotten about it. What happened was that quite quickly, within a few months, I began writing. I was getting in touch with some powerful feelings and I didn't know quite what to do with them. One afternoon I felt like writing a poem. I'll tell you what the important thing was - it was to do with my feeling that I had a right to my own way of seeing things. Up until then I had allowed other people to impose their view of things to such an extent that I didn't very often see things for myself.
The first breakthrough was to understand that I was entitled to my view of what was going on between me and the man I was involved with. I didn't have to accept his view and I didn't have to argue with him either. I was entitled to have my own view privately, which was not the same as his. I found that I wanted to write it down and that was, I think, the first poem I wrote.
Incidentally, there's a point I want to make because I know that feminists worry about psychoanalysis, and I have certainly had some concerns myself. One thing analysis has done is make it a lot more difficult for men to exploit me and I would imagine that's true for quite a few women. So whatever your worries are about your analyst's theories about women, if in practice it has become a lot more difficult for men to exploit you, then that is a gain.
Being able to see things for myself, feeling I was entitled to my way of seeing things, was also very much bound up with getting in touch with my feelings, with my emotions. I imagine that very often in the early stage of analysis the patient says: 'no, I'm not angry - that would be unreasonable'. At a certain point I realised, and this was a revelation to me, that when someone asked me how I felt about something, I was coming up with a plausible answer but actually I didn't really know how I was feeling. I asked myself what would be reasonable. I thought I was telling the truth but then I realised that's not how I'm feeling, that's just what I think. I began to see that I did not actually know where to look for the answer to the question, 'what are you feeling?'
I didn't know that if you accidentally drop a cup of tea over someone it may mean that you're angry with them. Once you understand that, you notice what you're doing, and you notice what thoughts cross your mind. And those are clues and then you get better at it. I think I'm pretty well in touch with my feelings most of the time now. I don't usually have to wait till I drop something to find out that I'm angry.
I want to tell you about an afternoon when I sat in Battersea Park, looking at a tree. It was if this was the first time I'd been able to see a tree. How I felt about that tree, I realised, was mine and nobody could argue me out of it. It was an important moment, very moving. I sat there crying, and later that day I wrote a poem about that tree.
Truth to feeling is the important thing and that is why I don't see how analysis could make anyone a worse poet. Poetry is about telling the truth. The poet and the psychoanalyst are both seekers after truth.
Another parallel between analysis and writing poetry is that you have to be prepared for surprises. I think it was Robert Frost who said that there's no point in starting a poem if you know how it's going to end. It's a commonplace among poets that a poem takes on a life of its own. You have to be prepared for things to come up and for the poem to go off in a completely different direction from the direction you're expecting. And it's the same in analysis - you learn to expect surprises. You don't know what's going to come up and there's the same kind of excitement.
Some people are afraid that analysis or psychotherapy will make them more ordinary and boring. There's a problem about the word 'normal'. Some analysts, I think, use the word to mean perfect mental health. But to a lot of people 'normal' means ordinary and boring. They don't want to be 'normal', they want to be special. In fact, of course, if analysis helps someone to be more herself it'll make her more special.
The Journey
Wendy Cope wrote
this poem during the first year of her analysis.
|
Something
wicked
When
Wendy Cope was finding her voice as a poet, around 1980, the status of
"light verse" was low. The readings boom that got under way in the
1960s had been given considerable wing by the comic talents of the Liverpool
poets, and a leavening of humour was thought desirable for almost any poetry
event. But the public staging of poetry had encouraged extrovert
"performance poetry" - a different matter altogether.
Performance
poetry relies for its success more on the panache of its projection to an
audience than on the quality of the words. It should never have been mistaken
for authentic light verse, but it often was. When it amounted to no more than
stand-up comedy claiming to be poetry, it gave light verse a bad name.
With a
few exceptions, good poets didn't seem to write any light stuff any more. One
exception was Gavin Ewart, the genius to whom Cope dedicates a poem in this
enjoyable collection. Her range is narrower than his, and she is less prolific,
but she has achieved something important by helping, in her own concise and
witty fashion, the effort to re-establish light verse as a respectable genre.
She
has done that by showing it can make poetry popular without insulting the
intelligence. She has an impressive mastery of apt and wicked parody: her first
book, Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis (1986), brought parody out of its cosy
corner at the back of the weekly reviews and proved to readers that they could
recognise the styles of an Eliot, Hughes or Heaney, and delight in a rise being
taken out of them. Cope's alter ego or presiding anorak, the Tulse Hill amateur
poet "Jason Strugnell", was adept at hilarious pastiches of almost any
poet. Readers appreciated the technical skill, warmed to the personality, and
appreciated the sheer approachability of this poetry. Her verses rhymed, they
had audible rhythms, they met the challenge of sonnet, triolet, villanelle.
Although
there were moments of satirical sharpness, Cope's humour was usually
good-natured. The feminist barbs, more frequent in her second volume, Serious
Concerns, were gentle and time- honoured: as in her protests against
"Tumps" (typically useless male poets) and her woman's wail of
seasonal misery: "Bloody Christmas, here again. / Let us raise a loving
cup: / Peace on earth, goodwill to men, / And make them do the washing up."
These gentle complaints could convert into unmistakeable sadness under a wry
disguise ("The head does its best but the heart is the boss"), and
there were yearnings after conventional nature poetry; although she pictured
herself confined to "keen observations of animals (mostly / The dead ones
because they keep still)".
If I
Don't Know takes up all of these strands, and follows a few more. Lovers of her
parody mode will have to make do with just one excellent example, a spot-on
take-off of John Berryman's Dream Songs: "Wendy went a-swimming. It was
dreadful. / One small boy careless under her did surface / and did butt her on
the chin. / . . . Why no school? cried agey Wendy / to herself, not loud. Why
little beggars / swimming into me on Friday afternoon?"
But
the quietly zany anecdotes are still there; so is the sharpness, in How to Deal
with the Press, with its echo of Belloc: "Hostile, friendly, sober, pissed,
/ Male or female - that's the rule. / When tempted to confide, resist. / Never
trust a journalist."
For
the first time she is translating (two poems by Marina Tsvetayava) and trying a
longer narrative poem, The Teacher's Tale. The latter shows a simple generosity
of spirit that reads a little strangely after her satires; it should remind
attentive readers that Cope admires Wordsworth and John Clare. Nature is
explored with a set of poems about "Traditional Prize Country Pigs"
and set in gardens, where the mood is at first uneasy - there is "a ghostly
figure on the garden wall" - but ultimately serene: "Asked to imagine
heaven, I see us there".
Alan Brownjohn
The Sunday Times, 3-6-2001
Of
headless squirrels and men
Unlikely
nature poems and a chalkface Chaucer prove irresistible. Kate Kellaway praises
If I Don't Know, Wendy Cope's latest collection
Sunday
June 3, 2001
The Observer
If I Don't Know
Wendy Cope
76 pp, Faber, £8.99
Wendy
Cope's poetry used to be required reading for anyone enduring an unsatisfactory
romance or without a love life at all. She may have dreamt of making cocoa for
Kingsley Amis, but she served up something more intoxicating to the rest of us.
She was funny in an angry, slightly chippy way. I loved her poetic comfort food.
I used to recite 'Bloody men are like bloody buses' to myself and friends, which
pointed out that you wait and nothing happens and then suddenly several buses /
men roll up at the same time.
But now
she has left the bus stop. Cope's new book is about a more settled life. Once
she wrote: 'There are so many kinds of awful men one can't avoid them all.' Now
she takes it all (or some of it) back. These lines were commissioned by the
Salisbury Festival to appear in fireworks: 'Write it in fire across the night:
Some men are more or less all right.'
If I Don't
Know is her third collection - the first for more than nine years - and it
testifies to doubt and a faltering attitude to her reputation. In 'A Mystery'
she disarmingly explains herself:
People
say, 'What are you doing these days? What are you working on?
I think
for a moment or two.
The
question interests me. What am I doing these days?
How odd
that I haven't a clue.
If anyone
can dramatise blankness amusingly then Cope can and does. She even writes a poem
with the title 'Being Boring' which ends:
I don't go
to parties. Well, what are they for,
If you
don't need to find a new lover?
You drink
and you listen and drink a bit more
And you
take the next day to recover.
Someone to
stay home with was all my desire
And, now
that I've found a safe mooring,
I've just
one ambition in life: I aspire
To go on
and on being boring.
But the
jauntiness cannot disguise her defensiveness. The 'safe mooring' is not always
safe for her poems. Cope enjoys sending poets, including herself, up. Her
parodies (of T.S. Eliot, Wordsworth, Seamus Heaney and others) made her name.
Remember paunchy, talentless 'Casanova of Tulse Hill'? In 'Reading', she listens
to someone who could be his cousin:
Everybody
in this room is bored.
The poems
drag, the voice and gestures irk.
He can't
be interrupted or ignored.
It is
amusing but does not compete with the poetry reading she survived in her first
collection:
Don't ask
what it was all about
I haven't
got a clue.
I spent a
blissful evening, lost
In carnal
thoughts of you.
Something
has been lost - and Cope is looking for it. She tries to translate herself into
nature poet but the natural world comically refuses to comply. In 'The Squirrel
and the Crow' she hopes to derive 'solace' from a walk but instead comes across
an unobligingly headless squirrel and a dead crow.
When she
comes to write nature poems in praise of her garden, her pleasure in what she
sees is guarded to the point of flatness. If I Don't Know is constructed around
helplessness in the face of beauty. She seems stunned in more ways than one.
'The rose. The gardenful. The evening light. It's nine o clock and I can still
see everything.' She writes like a convalescent. But she - and nature - come up
trumps on the subject of different breeds of pig which ends with the unlikely,
elegiac words: 'All the golden pigs are gone.'
The best
poem in the book, 'The Teacher's Tale', takes up almost half of it and was
commissioned to mark the six hundredth anniversary of Chaucer's death. I am not
sure if Paul is an invented character, but everyone knows someone like him. It
starts off in the tone of a Middle England reporter praising Paul's respectable
parents. Then it starts to change gear...
Cope's
protests are worth attending to. She shows that 'respectable' parents are not
always good. She was once a primary school teacher herself, and there is
informed sympathy in every line. This is an agile, modern Canterbury Tale and
the end brought a lump to my throat. I loved 'Stickleback Song', too (also about
education).
I won't give its unusual message away here, but it ought to be pinned on the noticeboards of every staff room in England.
On the theme of humour
Wit
and ironic defiance in the scourge of 'The Bard of the Year' competition
WENDY COPE
knows how to keep us waiting. It is nine years since Serious Concerns appeared
on the bestsellers list. The interval has mellowed her sensibility. Her new
collection, If I Don't Know, is less openly satirical, more settled and
contented.
Not that
Cope is one to accept the impositions of middle age without an ironic cry of
defiance:
And, now
that I've found a
safe mooring,
I've just one ambition in
life: I aspire
To go on and on being boring.
All the
familiar Cope pre-occupations are here. Christmas, nature, the foibles of men,
the business of being a poet. In "A Poem on the Theme of Humour" she
berates the organisers of the "Bard of the Year" competition for
banning comic poems. "Your message to the reading public," she
suggests, is: "Real poetry is no fun at all."
Cope is an
outstanding miniaturist, but a poet who writes great short poems may be prey to
the suspicion that true greatness requires great long ones. Hence "The
Teacher's Tale", an extended narrative written in Alexander Pope's
favourite metre of rhyming iambic pentameters. But Cope, alas, is not quite
Pope. Her light and easy wit seems to have gone missing here and even the
versification - usually so exact and ingenious - lapses into blandness. I turned
instead to "The Sitter", a sonnet that shows Cope at her best. The
poem is inspired by a nude portrait painted by Vanessa Bell in which the
unfortunate model appears, shall we say, less than svelte. Cope imagines the
thoughts of the frumpy model (feeling "depressed, disagreeable and
fat") as she poses for the stylish society artist.
I'd rather
have been
posing on a couch
For some old rake who
wanted me in bed.
This burst
of rhetoric is so heartfelt and colloquial that the ear barely notices how
precisely the lines conform to the metrical scheme. It is a salutary example of
an antique form used to accommodate the rhythms of modern speech. The technical
precision isn't merely a trick, but an artistic instrument that subtly imposes
the lines on the memory.
It is also
wonderfully funny. This is why Wendy Cope is so treasured and why she has done
more for poetry than a thousand arts council grants. She combines all the
virtues of lyrical craftsmanship with a higher virtue still - whopping sales.
That said, her timing is pretty lousy for a comic poet. Nine years? Come on,
Wendy. Get weaving.
Lloyd Evans
Telegraph, 4-6-2001
She's got rhythm
The latest collection from Britain's most popular contemporary poet
JUDGING by the sales of her previous two collections for adults - Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis (1986) and Serious Concerns (1991) - Wendy Cope must be, by a long chalk, the most successful poet in the country.
In their press release her publishers announce that the second of these books has sold almost 100,000 copies, the kind of figures usually associated with airport fiction or cookery books by television celebrities. This extraordinary popularity cannot be put down to her being a prominent performance poet, though she does, like most of her well-known peers, read her work in public at literature festivals and occasionally on the air. How, then, does one account for her phenomenal appeal?
The poems in her new collection, unresonantly entitled If I Don't Know, might provide clues. First, most are written in prescribed forms using regular metre and rhyme, while those that dispense with these traditional devices are reassuringly familiar in their rhythm, imagery and diction. Many are amusing in a mild, rueful way and none makes uncomfortable demands on the intellect or the emotions. They are not likely to puzzle, intimidate or shock anyone.
In fact
Wendy Cope is in direct line of descent from those minor English poets, popular
in their time but finding few heirs today, accomplished writers of light verse
such as Winthrop Praed, C. S. Calverley and J. K. Stephen. One of the poems in
this book, Being Boring, with its fine anapaestic prancing rhythm and chiming
rhymes, might have been written by any of the above except perhaps for the
sentiments expressed. Here is the last stanza:
I don't go to parties. Well,
what are they for,
If you don't need to find a
new lover?
You drink and you listen
and drink a bit more
And you take the next day
to recover.
If I Don't Know is presented in two parts. In the first are the shorter poems which display an impressive command of various traditional forms, sonnets, villanelles, skeltonics and so on, and the last 22 pages are reserved for a single narrative poem called The Teacher's Tale.
Most of the shorter poems are pleasurable and a few, such as The Christmas Life, John Clare, Colour Chart and How To Deal With The Press are delightful. Some of the others, though, are not much more than rather tame versified jokes.
The long
poem in the second part of the book is less easy to assess. It tells the story
of an only child, a boy, who is brought up by parents who are - the mother
especially - ambitious for their son but are unimaginative, insensitive and
inflexibly disciplinarian. The poor boy is the victim of a kind of parental
abuse that perhaps goes largely unrecognised. The poem recounts the story of his
descent into misery, petty crime, humiliation and his final small redemption. It
is written in rhymed couplets using regular iambic pentameters and it begins
with a few cliche-ridden lines which are, quite simply, doggerel:
In London SE5 there lived
a boy
Called Paul. He was his
mother's pride and joy
When he was born in 1961
- Best baby ever, Mrs
Skinner's son.
He had a dad, too, living
with his mum.
In this our Paul was
luckier than some . . .
After the depressing start the poem picks up and the story unfolds briskly enough. The strict metre still manages to accommodate something of the rhythms, syntax and vocabulary of the poem's milieu, while the narrative holds the attention and finishes affectingly. However, it is the shorter poems - versatile, skilful and entertaining - which contain the best of her work.
But the huge popularity of Wendy Cope's poems still seems to me a bit of a mystery.
Vernon Scannell
Telegraph, 28-5-2001
Delight is the Emotionby Sophie Hannah
Wendy Cope
Poetry Review ISSUE 91-2 |
|
Rarely can a new poetry book be accurately described as "eagerly awaited", but Wendy Cope's new collection certainly is. Her two previous collections, Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis and Serious Concerns, were both best-sellers, and If I Don't Know deserves to be one too. Cope's fans will find plenty of the sort of witty, rhyming poems about men, relationships and the literary life for which she is well-known, but anyone who is waiting to cry, "Light verse!" will find it hard to make this accusation stick; for every witty rhyming poem in this book, there is a quieter, more elegiac and philosophical one:
Months ago I dreamed of a tulip garden,
Planted, waited, watched for their first appearance,
Saw them bud, saw greenness give way to colours,
Just as I'd planned them.
Every day I wonder how long they'll be here.
Sad and fearing sadness as I admire them,
Knowing I must lose them, I almost wish them
Gone by tomorrow.
('Tulips')
Whereas Serious Concerns dealt with the misery of being single and looking for love, the main theme of If I Don't Know is how difficult it is to be happy when you know that happiness must end. Poem after poem is a celebration of life balanced by an awareness of its transience:
The book I've been reading
rests on my knee. You sleep.
It's beautiful out there -
fields, little lakes and winter trees
in February sunlight,
every car park a shining mosaic.
Long, radiant minutes,
your hand in my hand,
still warm, still warm.
('On a Train')
There is a simplicity, a descriptive minimalism, about Cope's poetry that is extremely effective; in 'Idyll' she gives us only a few concrete details, yet manages at the same time to make the whole scene spring to life:
...We won't talk all the time. I'll sit back
Contemplating shadows on the red-brick path.
And marvel at the way it all turned out.
That yellow begonia. Our gabled house.
Asked to imagine heaven, I see us there,
The way we have been, the way we sometimes are.
A less talented poet would have described the red-brick path for four lines, the begonia for another four, and the house for five or six, burying all three under piles of words until they were hardly visible. Cope doesn't need to. When, in 'If I Don't Know', the title poem, she writes, "I sit on the swing and cry", such is her creative authority that, without a single physical detail, the swing becomes not merely a swing, but the swing, and we can picture it clearly. This is so refreshing in the current poetic climate, with so many alleged poets overdoing the physical description because they are desperate to give their work some poetic flavour, like bad cooks who put too much sherry in a trifle just to make it taste of something - anything.
Though Jason Strugnell does not feature in this book, Cope is still very funny on the subject of poets and poetry readings:
Everybody in this room is bored.
The poems drag, the voice and gestures irk.
He can't be interrupted or ignored.
Poor fools, we came here of our own accord
And some of us have paid to hear this jerk.
Everybody in the room is bored.
The silent cry goes up, "How long, O Lord?"
But nobody will scream or go beserk
He won't be interrupted or ignored
Or hit by eggs, or savaged by a horde
Of desperate people maddened by his work.
Everybody in the room is bored
Except the poet...
('A Reading')
Cope, unlike the poet in 'A Reading', can get away with calling one of the poems in this collection 'Being Boring', which is a conceit that works well because the poem contradicts its title so comprehensively. It's a moving, funny and satisfying love poem:
There was drama enough in my turbulent past:
Tears and passion - I've used up a tankful.
No news is good news and long may it last.
If nothing much happens, I'm thankful....
Someone to stay home with was all my desire
And, now that I've found a safe mooring,
I've just one ambition in life: I aspire
To go on and on being boring.
Despite the contentment and sense of romantic fulfilment in some of these poems, Cope can still be her acerbically critical old self when commenting on the relationship between the sexes, so those of her fans who are still disillusioned with romance and seeking solace shouldn't lose heart:
He tells her that the earth is flat -
He knows the facts, and that is that.
In altercations fierce and long
She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.
She cannot win. He stands his ground.
The planet goes on being round.
('He Tells Her')
It is hard to write poems of two, three or four lines that feel substantial and satisfying, but Cope manages it in this book as she did in her two previous collections. 'Firework Poem II' (which was commissioned, and had to be short enough to fit on a firework) reads, "Write it in fire across the night: /Some men are more or less all right". 'Timekeeping' is hilarious, instantly memorable:
Late home for supper,
He mustn't seem drunk.
"The pob cluck", he begins,
And knows he is sunk.
The range of this outstanding collection is incredible - from translations to the long narrative poem 'A Teacher's Tale' - but the poems all have something in common: they could only have been written by Wendy Cope. Her authorial persona - plain-speaking, serious-minded, contrarily witty - is unlike anyone else's, and the most refreshing thing about her work is that it effortlessly avoids the limp homogeneity that seems to infect so much contemporary poetry. Who but Cope could have written 'A Hampshire Disaster' (inspired by the headline "Shock was the emotion of most" in the Hampshire Chronicle)?
When fire engulfed the headquarters
Of the Royal Winchester Golf Club
In the early hours of Wednesday morning,
Shock was the emotion of most.
But fear had been the emotion
Of some who saw the flames, and admiration
For the courage and skill of the firefighters
Was another emotion felt.
At the loss of so much history -
Cups, trophies and honours boards -
Sadness is now the emotion Of many Winchester golfers.
Stoical resignation was the emotion
Of the club captain, as he told the
Chronicle
"The next procedure will be to sort out the insurance.
Life must go on".
Delight is the emotion of this reviewer.
Sophie Hannah's latest collection is Leaving and Leaving You (Carcanet, 1999
'Happiness writes good
poems'
Has Wendy Cope mellowed? A
settled life with a partner and stepchildren - and her new work - suggest
that she has. Robert McCrum mets her
Interview by Robert McCrum
Sunday June 3, 2001
The Observer
Wendy Cope's first collection, Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis was published
in 1986 and became a surprise bestseller. A second volume, Serious Concerns
(1992), gave her a kind of audience rarely achieved by British poets in
their lifetime. She has also edited anthologies of poetry for children and
is sometimes spoken of as a potential candidate for Poet Laureate
Observer: How long have you been working on this collection?
Wendy Cope: I've been writing a few poems every year since my last collection (Serious Concerns) was published nine years ago.
Obs: The poems you've published here seem to have a new mood of contentment.
WC: Serious Concerns was written at a very unhappy phase of my life, after which my life changed quite dramatically.
Obs: Can you explain?
WC: Well, I was a freelance writer living alone in London and I didn't have a partner. That combination of circumstances made me very isolated.
Obs: And then you met Lachlan Mackinnon.
WC: Yeah, and I moved to Winchester. And I'm happy there.
Obs: Is that why you stopped doing parodies?
WC: The parodies were something I wanted to do at a particular time. It was partly a way of coming to terms with what was fashionable in poetry.
Obs: Who are the poets you really admire and respect?
WC: The trouble with being asked which living poets I admire is that I know them all - but Larkin certainly. Poetry Review described me as 'sticking with Larkinian common sense' in its last issue. I'm not sure if Poetry Review thought that was a good thing, but I thought that's OK with me. 'Larkinian common sense' is something I'll own up to.
I don't know which poets have influenced me, because I think that's really more for others to judge. I've been very keen on George Herbert these last few years. I'm keen on John Clare as well. That sort of simplicity. Emily Dickinson is important. I've just done an anthology (published in October) called Heaven on Earth: 101 Happy Poems .
Obs: So it's OK to be a happy poet?
WC: This anthology comes from feeling rather annoyed every time I see someone saying in a book review, as if it's obviously true, 'Happiness writes white'. Of course misery writes more good poems than happiness, but happiness does write good poems now and again.
Obs: When Ted Hughes died, you were tipped to be the next Poet Laureate. Did you want that?
WC: No, I didn't. The whole episode made me pretty anxious and I was very relieved when Andrew Motion was appointed and it went away.
Obs: People know Wendy Cope as the author of bestselling poetry, such as Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis . What will readers who have followed your work make of this one?
WC: I don't know. I'll be interested to find out. Poets and literary people like the parodies in Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis. Serious Concerns was much more about life and less about literature. I think it's a better book than Making Cocoa for Kingsley Amis. I may go to my grave saying that and everyone else saying she's crazy. If I Don't Know is really a miscellany. This is not a book with a theme.
Obs: Do you like writing poems to commission?
WC: The first poem in this book was commissioned. There were times when Making Cocoa came out when were people ringing up and asking me to write weekly. I got fed up with people trying to commission me all the time and wondered why they didn't just leave me alone to write the poems I wanted to write. On the other hand, I needed to earn a living, so it was difficult. But mostly I said no.
Obs: In the past, men were a source of misery and annoyance to you, weren't they?
WC: Well, not all the time.
Obs: No, but now you're saying 'some men are more or less all right'. So things have changed?
WC: Oh yes, I read that one at readings and I say this shows how much I've mellowed. I should add that some men are better than more or less all right.
Obs: That's a big change in your life.
WC: Yes, I'm asking myself honestly how much my view of men has changed. I think it has.
Obs: You were very well known for that point of view.
WC: Yes, but there are always some love poems. If you look through my past books, what you get is ambivalence. I mean, it's not right to say that my books are simply full of hostility to men, because there are also love poems which are addressed to men.
Obs: Did you always want to be a poet?
WC: I wanted to write stories for children. I used to get exercise books and write stories in my spare time. But I just completely lost confidence in the idea. And it really went away for about 20 years, and then when I was in analysis, in the second half of my twenties, it came back, that this is something I wanted to do and maybe I could dare to try it.
Obs: The poetry came out of seeing a shrink?
WC: There were three things that came together at that point in my life. One of them was the work I was doing at school. I was doing a lot of creative work with primary-school children. This was the Plowden era. That helped to bring out the creative side of myself. Then there was the analysis.
And the third thing that was very important was I began writing just after I started living on my own for the first time. I didn't have anyone at home to talk to. That was an important. In recent years, I thought, well now I have got someone at home to talk to maybe I won't write any more. But I'm still writing.
Obs: Do you write every day?
WC: No.
Obs: Do you write when you're inspired?
WC: I don't know why I don't like the word 'inspired', but it's hard to find a substitute for it. I don't get good ideas for poems very often. I tend to wait for a good idea to come along and hit me. But actually there are things I can do that will help good ideas come along. There have been times when I've thought it's time, maybe I'll have another go and see if I can write some poems. I start writing my diary, I start reading a lot of poems, I start trying things out. It may take a week or two but something will come eventually. And at other times I'm just reading lots of novels, not thinking about poetry at all, and I think that's OK. But at times like that I'm probably not going to write a poem.
Obs: Who did you read when you were growing up?
WC: Well, I read lots of Enid Blyton, of course. We all did, at that time. My parents also knew enough to put classics in front of me, such as Little Women , What Katy Did and Heidi . Just the usual stuff that girls of my generation read. I loved The Jungle Book . I didn't like poetry very much. The poetry you did at primary school in the Fifties, especially in girls' schools, was all about fairies and about nature and I grew up in a suburb.
Obs: So it didn't relate.
WC: No. But my father used to recite Tennyson's Charge of the Light Brigade , and I think that had some effect on me. He also recited the Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám .
Obs: What did your parents do?
WC: My father was chairman and managing director of a department store. He didn't actually own it, but he ran it. My mother was my father's secretary before they were married, and she was the company secretary after they were married, so she was involved in his business.
She had very flexible hours, obviously, since her husband was the boss. We went to boarding school when we very young, but if it was half-term or something she could take time off.
Obs: What have been the important developments in poetry recently?
WC: One of the most exciting things that's happened in poetry in the last 20 or 30 years is all this new poetry for children. I mean, it isn't all good, but some of it's wonderful. People are so snooty about children's literature. I don't think it's given enough recognition. In fact, this amazing flowering of poetry for children is something really important.
Obs: You've edited two or three collections of poetry for children and you've also taught in a primary school. Would you have liked to have children yourself?
WC: Yes.
Obs: That chance has presumably passed.
WC: Yes, it has. And it's a sadness, but not an overwhelming one. I'm quoting Larkin there. I think it was what he said about not writing poetry. So yeah, I am sad about it.
Obs: But you do have stepchildren.
WC: Yes and they're absolutely lovely. They're not technically
stepchildren because we're not actually married, but Lachlan has three
children and they're very nice, very, very nice. And I've got most of the
other things I wanted in life.