Session Start: Mon Feb 22 20:48:01 1999
*** Now talking in #Subs_discuss
*** Topic is 'Next discussion Monday, 22 Feb. 9pm AEST...Topic:  
SELF ESTEEM  Presented by barak{Ras} Please adhere to channel 
rules and enjoy :))'
*** Set by vidette{CL} on Mon Feb 22 18:42:57
<vidette{CL}> ok lovely people...sit back, relax and enjoy
<kitten{Ozzie^}> thanks all :)
<vidette{CL}> as you know our lovely leader this evening is barak 
and he's going to lead us on a discussion about Self Esteem
* vidette{CL} smiles
<vidette{CL}> Questions can be asked at any time during the 
discussion however due to time constraints it would be appreciated 
if personal experiences were not discussed, there will be time 
fterwards to do this
<vidette{CL}> Also the sub play that we all love so much should be 
kept to a minimum or preferably not displayed at all in channel once
 the discussion starts
<vidette{CL}> If you have a question please indicate so by typing 
a ? and when you are asked to proceed please do so :)
<vidette{CL}> Hopefully we can limit the discussion to an hour to 
an hour and a half, as we know many of you have Master's or Mistress
 to attend to *grin*
<vidette{CL}> it's all yours barak *warm smiles*
<sara{X^L}> break a leg barak
<barak{Ras}> thank you vidette
<barak{Ras}> ta sara
<barak{Ras}> Okay... tonight I am going to be talking about Self 
Esteem, self worth, self image or what ever you would like to call
 it. I will be approaching this topic tonight looking for lots of 
input from you guys.
<barak{Ras}> So I will be talking, and then I will open the floor ]
to discussion and then I will proceed onto the next part and so 
forth
<barak{Ras}> okay, i will be keeping it pretty informal tonight...
si if you have a question or want to make a comment...no need to 
wait for me to finish
<vidette{CL}> ok everyone...settle in and let barak begin *smiles*
<barak{Ras}> thanks vidette
<barak{Ras}> . I think this topic is something we have all had to 
face at one stage or another.
<barak{Ras}> Now, self Esteem is of vital importance to what we do,
 and how we interact and react within what we do as submissives
<barak{Ras}> . A low self image will leave the submissive open to 
certain consequences that a more normal or healthy self image will not
<barak{Ras}> these consequences can be a range of things stemming 
from a range of factors
<barak{Ras}> okay...i would like to pose this question to you...
<barak{Ras}> What do you consider to be the value of self image/ 
self worth in our particular lifestyle?
* vidette{CL} ponders for a minute :)
* barak{Ras} opens the floor for comments and such
<^totty> ooooooooo well if we have low self image we are open to abuse
<kitten{Ozzie^}> you must have a high opinion or be lost
<^totty> but that doesnt just relate to this lifestyle thats life :)
<barak{Ras}> *nods* that's true totty...
<vidette{CL}> i think it's vitally important because it takes a certain
strength to be submissive...and with low self-esteem/self-image...that 
strength is lacking and leaves us vulnerable to all kinds of stuff
<wee_foot{Y}> i think it is of vital importance as we are not in a 
culture which general society sees as being of normal esteem, subs are 
usually seen as ppl who have no self esteem, who are brainwashed and so 
forth. this is not the case in many cases of know of
<barak{Ras}> but there is more of a potential for a low self image to be 
taken advantage of in this lifestyle
<bruno> well, I think submissives are in a position to have their self-
image under attack all the time, and if they don't have a high self-
image to start with, it can hurt. I should know, I have just left the 
scene because of this
<kenji{W}t> knowing ones self and being important to ones self closes 
the door on the ability to be abused 99% of the time
<sara{X^L}> to be vunrable in emotions leaves you open to predators
<vidette{CL}> and there are so many predators out there
<barak{Ras}> *nods* that there are vidette
<barak{Ras}> sooo, that leads me to the next thing i would like to talk
 about...
<barak{Ras}> what ARE  the consequences of a low self image...
<vidette{CL}> manipulation
<vidette{CL}> exploitation
<kenji{W}t> abuse, emotional breakdown, 
<sara{X^L}> dispair, conflict
<sara{X^L}> self abuse
<vidette{CL}> confusion in a lifestyle like this...especially if you 
are new to the scene
<^totty> tears sadness turmoil
<barak{Ras}> *nods* thats it...i had the same things listed when i sat
 down and thought on this earlier today
<`amber{ToL}> attracting stuff that keep hurting you and furter loweing 
esteem 
<kenji{W}t> the inability to function as a whole person
<barak{Ras}> *nods* yes
<vidette{CL}> yes...i agree with amber...you tend to get caught in a rut
 or a cycle when you have low self esteem
<`amber{ToL}> abusme written on your forehead
<tigereyes> or you just dont get involved with anyone at all
<barak{Ras}> and it can be a very hatrd cycle to get out of once started
<sara{X^L}> yes like the wife basher syndrome you just keep going back 
for more

<vidette{CL}> oh yes...once the confidence plummets it's hard to raise 
yourself above it again
* tigereyes nods to vidette
<barak{Ras}> that is so true vidette..
<vidette{CL}> <---been there done that :)
<cind> I sm bottom and dont dare actually submit last time I did I had 
an emotional breakdown
<kenji{W}t> it is seen a lot in channels when subs continually through 
themselves at Doms because they are looking for acceptance to break the 
cycle
<vidette{CL}> do you think they're looking to break the cycle tho kenji?
* barak{Ras} agrees kenji
<vidette{CL}> or is that the only way they can get attention?
<kenji{W}t> well i hope so rather than inviting abuse
<vidette{CL}> instead of getting attention for being confident and 
strong and beautiful and sure of themselves?
<kenji{W}t> yes that is what should happen vidette
* vidette{CL} nods and ponders
<bruno> and that drive for acceptance draws you further and further 
down, because you start losing your identity, doing things because you 
hope they are going to get you accepted, rather than following your own 
feelings
<vidette{CL}> yes bruno...i can understand that 
* tigereyes huggs bruno...
<kenji{W}t> very true bruno and then the cycle is vicious
<barak{Ras}> i agree...so, how does a strong self image/self worth help 
you to avoid these pitfalls then...
<sara{X^L}> you are confident to say no
* michi{Y} is new to this channel..but feels he might make an 
* observation,,that people tend to seek abusers ..women especially seem 
* to always find another abusive partner..whether vanilla or not
<^totty> well you have to have inner strength and be honest with 
yourself
<vidette{CL}> i think you have confidence to know what is right and what 
is wrong for *you* and the ability to voice y our opinions
* michi{Y} sees it as a kind of habit or pattern
<cind>  you become desperate for someone who scorned you when in deep 
submission to provide you with the sense of self worth that was taken
<kenji{W}t> it is a fact that even though you may be quiet and 
unassuming strengths are recognised
<`amber{ToL}> you value who you are and will not take what you would 
when self esteem was low 
<cind> is there a danger that you can start strong but give too much
<cind> Ive done it once, never again for me.
<sara{X^L}> if you believe you are of value to the community...that 
aura will shine through and project to others
<vidette{CL}> but that's the risk you take cind
<kenji{W}t> i agree sara
<barak{Ras}> thats one of the risks in this lifestyle cind
<tigereyes> value to the community and yourself sara, we must like 
ourselves
<vidette{CL}> i think you need to be sure of yourself and your self 
worth *before* you enter into a bdsm relationship tho
<michi{Y}> self esteem has rarely been a problem for me ;) but I see so 
many people who somehow believe <?> it is their lot in life to be 
treated with less respect than is due any human being
<kenji{W}t> people do not need to be hit over the head to recognise 
strengths and truths
<vidette{CL}> the relationship won't give you that sense of self...that 
you need to find first
<^totty> well you have to see yourself of value before you mean anything 
to any community
<sara{X^L}> yes
* barak{Ras} nods
<barak{Ras}> okay..well then, let me ask you this...
<kenji{W}t> unto your own self be true
<michi{Y}> wellsaid kenji
* ^totty smiles at kenji{W}t
<bruno> what about Doms who have low self-esteem and try to break down 
the self esteem of subs as a means to make themselves feel more worthy?
<tigereyes> how though, easier said than done
* jx nods
<vidette{CL}> good question bruno
<kenji{W}t> bruno walk away from them
<vidette{CL}> i think that still comes back to the submissive
<barak{Ras}> good question bruno...was just going to posse that myself
<vidette{CL}> you need to have the ability to recognise that and the 
strength to walk away from it
<sara{X^L}> warning bells should ring loudly in the subs ears...
* cind shudders
<vidette{CL}> i'm sure there are many out there like that
* sara{X^L} agrees with vidette
<barak{Ras}> can be hard for a newbie to recognise those warning bells 
tho sara
<michi{Y}> is it not worth mentioning that the D side of a D/s 
relationship is possible ONLY because the /s side permits/welcomes it?
<kenji{W}t> the minute you lose the feeling of being totally cared for 
and worthwhile then walk away and look back and see what it is you have
<sara{X^L}> abuse is abuse....
<vidette{CL}> i mean it's not something that is just applicable to the 
D/s lifestyle...my ex vanilla husband was an expert at that
<michi{Y}> no person in this channel can be mistreated or made to feel 
less than they are..unless they place themself in a position where they 
are vulnerable..
<michi{Y}> oh..and i guess that leads to..we DO make ourselves 
vulnerable..
<barak{Ras}> so let me ask you this then guys...what can be done to 
prevent this from happening...how do you raise your own image, if low??
<michi{Y}> i'lljust shut up and sit here quietly :)
<vidette{CL}> but not everyone makes themselves vulnerable michi{Y}
<barak{Ras}> how do you see yourself as worthwhile in your own eyes??
<kenji{W}t> i believe as individuals we need to look closely at 
ourselves, look at what we are what we have done what we can do
<vidette{CL}> you know barak...i don't think that's something that just 
happens overnight...it takes a lot of soul searching, self-realisation 
and little acts of kindness to yourself
<michi{Y}> i disagree vidette...it is a choice we make...to take 
whatever comes..if it harms our psyche/esteem whatever..is negative to 
our well-being and we need to have the guts to act and get away from it
<kitten{Ozzie^}> i think we all (or me anyway) go through stages of self 
worth and uslessness
<kenji{W}t> and noone should say they have not done anything 
worthwhile...
<bruno> barak, I think one key thing is to take responsibility for our 
own self-esteem, and be careful of who we entrust it to
<vidette{CL}> of course michi...but not everyone makes themselves 
vulnerable
<barak{Ras}> i can rtelate to that kitten
<barak{Ras}> *nods* that is true bruno
<vidette{CL}> can i give a personal experience?
* vidette{CL} waits for the groans
<vidette{CL}> lol
<kitten{Ozzie^}> sure vidette{CL}
* `amber{ToL} has to go sorry hugs barak
<barak{Ras}> *nods* sure vidette *smiles warmly*
<michi{Y}> but then, vidette,,if a person begins to attack our own 
gfeelings of self-worth, we need to feel good enough about ourselves to 
say..no,,i deserve more than this
<bruno> the more we trust someone, the deeper the emotions and the 
feelings, and the higher the potential to be hurt
<sara{X^L}> sara used to write each day the things she liked about 
herself and the things she didnt..each morning when she was lets say in 
a situation where her self esteem was at an all time low..she would look 
 in the mirror and it was very hard to look herself in the eye and make 
herself say that she liked the person she saw...gradually she started to 
believe the words but took months
<kenji{W}t> no bruno..sorry we do not entrust our self esteem to 
anyone.it is ours and ours alone to ensure it reamains strong
<vidette{CL}> i came out of a marriage of 7 years that was a gradual 
breaking down of my self-esteem
<vidette{CL}> he chipped away until there was nothing left
<vidette{CL}> i felt ugly
<vidette{CL}> stupid
<kenji{W}t> only if we are self abusers can it be destroyed
<vidette{CL}> in capable of anything
<vidette{CL}> and i let him do it
* michi{Y} nods at sara..sounds like a worthwhile exercise
<vidette{CL}> and he did it because he felt so worthless himself
<vidette{CL}> it made him feel big and important and strong to see me so 
weak
<sara{X^L}> it paid off for sara michi
<bruno> kenji, you have to open up in order to receive. And whenever you 
open up there is potential for something to be taken away
* azure{DR} nods to vidette
<vidette{CL}> but somewhere along the line, i realised that i couldn't 
live my life like that
<vidette{CL}> and i took a course...and i realised that i wasn't stupid 
at all
<vidette{CL}> and i started dating again
<vidette{CL}> and realised that i wasn't ugly at all
<kenji{W}t> yes but that is were your own inner strengths have to be 
maintained bruno..self pride
<vidette{CL}> thru a mass of little actions...being kind to myself 
mainly
<vidette{CL}> i regained my self-esteem
* michi{Y} sends warm strength to sara and vidette
<wee_foot{Y}> by the way nice collar michi{Y} :)
* barak{Ras} hugggs vidette
<sara{X^L}> hehehe
<cind> we become vulnerable, unless it is pure sm as i do, it seems to 
be just the way life is
<azure{DR}> what did it for me.. getting my self esteem back.. initially 
was to stop being what the world thought i should be
<vidette{CL}> i think it's something that perpetuates itseld
<vidette{CL}> itself even
<vidette{CL}> when you're on the down...you keep going down
<kitten{Ozzie^}> vidette{CL} may i ask if you thought you were beautiful 
before all this?
<vidette{CL}> when you're on the rise again...the sky's the limit
<vidette{CL}> no...i felt horrible and ugly kitten{Ozzie^} lol
<vidette{CL}> well...i still do some mornings 
<michi{Y}> that's what i was trying to say earlier vidette..that some 
peoplehave a strange knack for finding the same kind of partner time and
 again
<kitten{Ozzie^}> no i mean before you were married when you were younger
<barak{Ras}> *nods* yes, they do michi
<kenji{W}t> yes michi i did in 2 husbands..boy yes i did
* ^totty groans
<michi{Y}> how many women (sexist i know) end up with another abusive 
partner after getting out of a bad relationship?
<bruno> kenji, I agree. I am not saying you hand over your self esteem 
to someone. But if you open yourself up to emotional attachment, then it 
is in some way a "weakness" that the person you opened to can exploit. I 
am not saying that it is a bad thing, just that any love, any emotional 
attachment, carries risks
<michi{Y}> exactly kenji...could you see it before it happened?
<vidette{CL}> before i met him kitten{Ozzie^}...i was really 
outgoing...not afraid of anything...full of self-confidence
<kitten{Ozzie^}> ok vidette{CL} thanks
<kitten{Ozzie^}> sorry not prying vidette{CL} really interested is all
<vidette{CL}> that's ok...why are you interested?
<michi{Y}> that's a good point bruno
<kitten{Ozzie^}> because i don't and never have thought i was beautiful,
 and bad relationships dragged me down more
<barak{Ras}> and this lifestyle leaves you open to that sort of thing 
alot more bruno, as the attatchment tends to be  alot stronger on an 
emotioanl level than other relationships
<wee_foot{Y}> and mental level too barak{Ras}
* vidette{CL} smiles at kitten and hugs her
<kitten{Ozzie^}> i truly think it stems from the abuse as a child
<barak{Ras}> *nods* and psychologically as well wee_foot{Y} *thanks*
<vidette{CL}> the point is tho kitten...i don't need to be a supermodel 
on the outside...i feel ok with myself on the inside and that is 
reflected in my life each day
<kenji{W}t> yes bruno i understand your point....but in the long run we 
ourselves as an individual have to handle and work on and accept our own 
self worth
<kenji{W}t> i learnt the hard way
<kitten{Ozzie^}> yes i understand vidette{CL} now kitten shuts up again
* vidette{CL} smiles
* kenji{W}t hugs you all as we have had all had to face this monster at 
* some point
<barak{Ras}> it has been a huge struggle for me to gain the sort of self 
image that allows me to wake up in the morning and look at myself and 
like myself
<azure{DR}> vidette... were you involved in D/s when you were down on 
yourself?
<vidette{CL}> no...vanilla marriage
<bruno> barak, I agree very much. I see BDSM as a symbolic activity 
almost, something which illustrates and idealises a lot of emotional 
cravings, something which can sublimate our emotions into something very 
strong
<azure{DR}> did you find that involvement in D/s helped you gain it 
back?
<bruno> kenji, I'm certainly facing it right now
<vidette{CL}> but i do know azure{DR}...that CL would never have looked 
at me twice if i had a low self-esteem or lacked an inner strength and 
confidence
<azure{DR}> not the way i meant :)
<azure{DR}> see for me.... i was trying to be the "modern" woman and 
hating it
* vidette{CL} nods
<azure{DR}> when i found D/s... it freed me to be what i truly am
* kenji{W}t holds bruno and hugs him...be well dear one you will find 
* your way
<vidette{CL}> yes...i understand that *smiles*...i understand that 
clearly
<kitten{Ozzie^}> umm i am sorry for interrupting but is barak{Ras} 
finished?
<bruno> thank you kenji :)
<barak{Ras}> well, i have been letting the discussion continue kitten, 
cos everyone is covering what i wanted to cover anyway
<barak{Ras}> but i would like to say...
<vidette{CL}> i think you can do little things to help gain some self-
esteem
<vidette{CL}> take care of your appearance
<vidette{CL}> the way you hold yourself
<barak{Ras}> what can be done to help you raise yopur self esteem
<vidette{CL}> the way you walk...head held high
* ^totty smiles
<wee_foot{Y}> the way you are treated by your Dom/meplays a big part
<azure{DR}> yes wee foot it does..... god Master glares at me when i say 
im not pretty and stuff like that
* vidette{CL} nods
<barak{Ras}> *nods* yes, i agree wee_foot, the zdom/me can offer a lot 
of positive reinforcement in that regard...but it does nothing if you 
haven't got the image there already
<sara{X^L}> each week even if its a little thing like going out and 
sitting in a cafe and having a coffee..but spend time for your self..try 
to put an hour aside each day..
<vidette{CL}> Master has said it's the one thing he won't tolerate...me 
putting myself down
<kenji{W}t> very good advice sara
<azure{DR}> no sara that didnt work for me.. i hd to get around people
<barak{Ras}> Mistress has said the same thing to me vidette
<azure{DR}> i spent too much time mentally running myself down
<sara{X^L}> it helped sara
<kenji{W}t> if we do not have time for ourselves who do we have time for
<wee_foot{Y}> well i know that Master gets all shitty when i'm down on 
myself, he makes me say things like "I'm beautiful",and "i' special" 
over and over again. He also makes me feel that way, by the way he 
treasures me
<azure{DR}> needed to find something i felt good about ... and not dwell 
on past failures or what i perceived as failures
<kenji{W}t> that is a sign of a good Master wee_foot{Y}
<barak{Ras}> *nods* that is a good way to counter it wee_foot{Y}
* vidette{CL} smiles at wee_foot{Y}
<wee_foot{Y}> he says its his job :)
<kenji{W}t> yes it is wee_foot{Y}
<barak{Ras}> anyone else got anything to add at this point????
<sara{X^L}> when sara said putting time aside for yourself..didnt mean 
to be alone ..but to do something for yourself each day
<vidette{CL}> i must admit...there are times when CL wakes up next to me 
and says look at this beautiful woman...and i get up and look in the 
mirror...and my hair is all over the place, my mascara is smudged, i've 
got a zit on my chin and wonder if he needs his glasses changed lol
<kenji{W}t> that is what a good Master will always ensure
<azure{DR}> ok sara :))
<azure{DR}> lol that is just being female vidette :))
<sara{X^L}> hehehe vidette
<vidette{CL}> lol
<barak{Ras}> lol vidette{CL}
<wee_foot{Y}> lol vidette{CL} i know that feeling
<barak{Ras}> OKAY...so we have covered how the submissive and self 
esteem...but what about the Dom/me..
<barak{Ras}> how do we cope...as submissives...with a Dom/me that has a 
low self worth???
<azure{DR}> hmmmmmm can one truly be a Dom and have low self esteem?
<azure{DR}> oops sorry barak... 
<vidette{CL}> hmmm...that's a tricky question barak
<bruno> azure, I am amazed at the number of Doms who have low self-
esteem
* azure{DR} hushes and fetches more coffee
<kitten{Ozzie^}> they are human, they also have moments of low self 
esteem
<barak{Ras}> well, i am told that all dom/mes have big ego's...or maybe 
that is just Mistress lol
<vidette{CL}> i personally wouldn't tolerate a Dom with low self-esteem
<vidette{CL}> but that's just me
<kenji{W}t> a good sub will support her Master when he is feeling low in 
that he also will do the same for her..a Dom with no self esteem will 
use a sub and abuse her badly to drag  them to their level of despair
<vidette{CL}> well put kenji{W}t
<wee_foot{Y}> lol barak{Ras}, watchit she could be here in subbie nick
<barak{Ras}> lol
<sara{X^L}> yes kenji 
<michi{Y}> well,i recently married my Mistress...she had been married 
previously to an abusive alcoholic..her self esteem was al shot to hell
<kenji{W}t> a sub can help build that if the Dom/me is worthwhile and 
wants support in the rebirth of themselves
<michi{Y}> and i feel some smallpride that it in part our blossoming D/s 
that has lifted her up again

* wee_foot{Y} smiles
<^totty> i believe its our responsibility to support our Masters in the 
same way myself
* sara{X^L} smiles to michi
* michi{Y} smiles back at sara
<kenji{W}t> yes Dom/mes give a lot if they are true to themselves and 
their sub and a sub can return that threefold
* barak{Ras} thinks that he would do the same for Mistress as She has 
* done for him
<michi{Y}> right on totty...above all, D/s is a 2 way street, a 
partnership

<vidette{CL}> totty if you didn't have a Master tho...would you be 
attracted to a Dom with obvious low self-esteem...someone who doubted 
themselves?
<wee_foot{Y}> yes yes yes
<wee_foot{Y}> i wouldn't
<^totty> no vidette{CL} i wouldnt
<sara{X^L}> neither would sara
<kenji{W}t> i agree michi and too many subs are demanding and forget 
they also have a responsibility in the partnership
<vidette{CL}> i just couldn't do it
<michi{Y}> oh..this leads on to: can a sub mentor and support a Dom/me?
<barak{Ras}> i wouldn't either...but how would you tell??
<vidette{CL}> but if something happened to CL to diminish his self-
worth...i would support him 1000%
<michi{Y}> i think yes..we do have a very large part in our top's self 
esteem
<barak{Ras}> yes michi{Y}...we sure can
<vidette{CL}> agree michi{Y} :)
* michi{Y} blushes and bows
<michi{Y}> i have been there...and love it, to build up the person 
whomeans most to me in the world
<kenji{W}t> i have known subs to drag their Dom'mes down..from 
continually depleting their ego
<vidette{CL}> michi{Y}...that's something that would be so individual
<cind> It is possible to have high self worth and sociability  have it 
stripped in close relationships, as vidette experienced, I feel that 
submitting makes the vulnerability greater.
<michi{Y}> oh no vidette, support for your lover and partner is 
universal
<kenji{W}t> yes sara but only a non caring Dom/me will strip you of it
<vidette{CL}> yes...but to mentor?
<kenji{W}t> sorry cind
<vidette{CL}> i don't seek that...as a submissive...i seek strength and 
control in my Master
<michi{Y}> regardless of my place in the power exchange,i have worth and 
can use that to bolster my Wife/Domme's confidence
<wee_foot{Y}> me too
<barak{Ras}> wouldn't a Dom/me be proud to have a sub who was strong and 
proud and knew who they were
<kenji{W}t> well said michi{Y}  hugs
<michi{Y}> Dom/mes are human, people..they have weaknesses and off days 
too
<sara{X^L}> as it should it be michi
<barak{Ras}> no one is perfect
<vidette{CL}> yes...michi...i'm not saying that...but mentoring is 
something that you would have to be prepared to do...i wouldn't 
personally
<vidette{CL}> mentoring someone would kind of be like topping from the 
bottom wouldn't it??  
<kenji{W}t> barak that was said to me today.....that we must remember we 
strive to be perfect but accept we are human
* `amber{ToL} smiles at barak ..did you read your last sentence hugs
<michi{Y}> my Wife doesn't want a doormat..She gets her strength from 
having power over a mean nasty 6' facially pierced mean subbie ;)
<wee_foot{Y}> the way to master's heart is his tummy tho *hee heee* oops 
sorry, yes weaknesses
<wee_foot{Y}> and he likes coco pops
<wee_foot{Y}> oops
<michi{Y}> ooh family secrets wee-foot? ;)
<wee_foot{Y}> aw everyone knows about the coco pops thing, its Dommy 
food :)
<michi{Y}> snap barak
<michi{Y}> so..my self esteem feeds hers...as it should be,yesm sara
<barak{Ras}> but isnt the support, the love and faith that you have in 
your Dom/me is what helps them through when they have there off days
* barak{Ras} smiles at michi
<vidette{CL}> of course
<kenji{W}t> yes barak
<michi{Y}> yes, it is barak...but if i had low opinion of myself...where 
would be my footing for support?
<michi{Y}> we need each other, and need each other to know that 1- we 
have worth to the other, 2 that we have love and support
<`amber{ToL}> good point michi{Y}
<barak{Ras}> *nods* yes michi...good point
<vidette{CL}> isn't that what a D/s relationship is all about...isn't 
that part of the exchange?
<kitten{Ozzie^}> one can have a low self esteem yet be there for others 
when they need support
<michi{Y}> i have had both online and IRL with my wife/Domme...always we 
need to talk and support..both ways
<vidette{CL}> i guess i take it for granted
<sara{X^L}> sara's Mistress just had a really bad time..and it looked 
like sara would lose her collar...this girl didnt wish to see that 
happen..so she asked to speak her mind and did so..then offered herself 
for punishment ....it kept her Mistress here and surprising both parties 
thanked sara for interfering
<michi{Y}> oh, and that's a very valid point kitten 
<barak{Ras}> as ..i think you said earlier michi...D/s is a 2 way 
street...and even tho one partner is Domminant..there is still an 
equality within that dynamic
<kenji{W}t> michi waht you are saying is common acceptance between a 
truee r/l relationship
<vidette{CL}> not for all...but for some...equality is important
<michi{Y}> yes kenji..there are TWO gifts involved..submission and 
acceptance of it
<vidette{CL}> but there's a difference between equality and control
<michi{Y}> we spoke about this at a recent meet did we not amber?
<michi{Y}> oops...RL meet
<barak{Ras}> that is true vidette
<^totty> i gotta scoot
<^totty> be well everyone :)
<`amber{ToL}> yes we did hun 
<michi{Y}> hang on vidette...support isn't control...well- i guess it is 
if used as a tool, by with-hoilding it
<kenji{W}t> vidette{CL} i strongly agree a sub can say they have 
equality and actually control thier Dom'me
<vidette{CL}> CL and i have a very equal footing in our 
relationship...but it is very clear in our relationship also that he is 
in control
<vidette{CL}> michi{Y}..i think you're missing my point
<kenji{W}t> yes Wolfgar and i are the same
<vidette{CL}> i'm not saying support is control
<vidette{CL}> at all
<michi{Y}> but then kenji...where is their submission? that's not a real 
relationship
<barak{Ras}> Rascally and i are the same in that way vidette
<sara{X^L}> but isnt that confusing equality with manipulation kenji?
<kenji{W}t> yes and some do sara
<michi{Y}> sorry vidette,perhaps i am...<sigh>
<cind> there are sm bottoms as well as D/s subs
* barak{Ras} signals for attention
* michi{Y} looks at barak
<barak{Ras}> okay ppls...time is marching on and all that...i think i 
would like to bring this to a close...
* vidette{CL} smiles to barak{Ras}
<barak{Ras}> is there anything ppl would like to say before i finnish???
<vidette{CL}> thank you for inspiring a wonderful discussion  barak...i 
thoroughly enjoyed it
<vidette{CL}> you did a great job *big huggggs*
<sara{X^L}> a very thought provoking discussion barak ...thankyou:))))
Session Close: Tue Feb 23 00:10:45 1999