Session Start: Mon Jan 25 20:26:43 1999 *** Now talking in #Subs_discuss 'Respect ............ Discussion begins at 9pm EST :) Please adhere to channel rules and enjoy :))' ok..rules and then we should begin Questions can be asked at any time during the discussion however due to time constraints it would be appreciated if personal experiences were not discussed, there will be time afterwards to do this Also the sub play that we all love so much should be kept to a minimum or preferably not displayed at all in channel If you have a question please indicate so by typing a ? and when you are asked to proceed please do so :) ? Hopefully we can limit the discussion to an hour to an hour and a half, as we know many of you have Master's or Mistress to attend to *grin* * totty glares at SilverOz oooppppppppppps SirRon{MzR} even it works SirRon{MzR} cheeky bugger <`barak> lol k tots * SilverOz practices getting glared at sara will be taking the discussion tonight * `barak nods nods at totty sorry SilverOz :) * sara{X^L} smiles please abide by the ? rule * totty smiles at sara * aquaboy reckons we need a Dom to supervise *grin* <`barak> lol :) sssshhhh please * kyla{F} listens first sara would like to thank you all for attending * jesse{Pan} quiets this session is a very important one on respect.. now it emcompasses a very broad spectrum and sara hopes she covers points and issues that pertain to each and everyone of you. first ...respect and why it is important ... let us consider a society that does not recognise respect as being important ... it soon disintegrates respect is a courtesy that everyone, whether Dom/sub or Master/ slave, accords themselves and thence extends to others wishes to speak of respect for oneself for without it, true respect can not be extended to others so, it is important that each knows his/her self and what one seeks from their experience here on irc and within the bdsm community ? ? yes SilverOz I think it might be useful to define "respect" in some way. distinguishing it from politeness for example. I am polite to all, I respect some. * aquaboy retracts my ? SO got it in one to treat with esteem yes SilverOz..that is true... something to be earned though totty, goes both ways ecuse me.. well the dictionary says to feel or show esteem for to show consideration as sara stated in the opening it is a broad spectrum...everyone being an individual naturally sees respect differently.. can sara continue? hm.. I treat people with common courtesy, but I respect or esteem those who have earned such from me. So that's the spot I'll be coming from. continue sara subs/slaves should be conscious that they have value, value to themselves, to the bdsm community and value to the Master or Mistress that they are with a smart mouthed sub/slave on irc or in real life may bring you attention, but it is negative attention, very unattractive and if you are collared reflects badly upon it, n more instances than not all it will gain you is a punishment and unsavory gossip. Overall you let yourself down and that of the person who's collar you wear. ? -> [sara{X^L}] PING sara{X^L} is lagging what is your question aquaboy gosh...still haven't got a ping reply me either :( * vidette{CL} smiles sweetly at the cyber gods...please give us a break? Well as you know online Yes I am cheeky, but to clarify Sara's point a bit more. For me I am respectful to those I dont know, ( as well as those I do) but pick who I can be cheeky and flirty with after I get to know them. I spose as in all life there is a Time and Place for everything, * belslut agrees with auqaboy ? i agree aquaboy...i think it's important to know where you stand with ppl first yes warr :) I agree - there is humour and there is agggravation warri even :) For me respect is something that I feel and that is toward matters little if the person is Dom sub or nilla * totty smiles ? yes SO next respect during "play". It is paramount that you respect the Dom/me that you are playing with and they accord you the same degree of respect. Without respect there cannot be trust and no one should "give" themselves to another that they do not trust. ooo..she's back! :) park of respecting yourself is to feel OK about being uman, which includes standing up for yourself and some see that as"cheeky". even if it's more-or-less polite. the other person's reaction is not the only yardstick i think we all agree that respect is different for us all then what are we discussin? <^jeff^> is this working with sara appearing to be in the guardsvan? i think there's a difference between being cheeky and confident and being disrespectful to others respect in the bdsm sense i think SilverOz if we ever find sara ahha ah..here we go well how bout we open the floor :) if respect is different for all, then what are we discussing is what I mean. we either wach say our pieces about it, or not... <^jeff^> even lost the connecting cord * `barak is always respectful of others, Don, sub or other... and may seem cheeky at times...but i am always aware of how far i can go with a particular person yes...i think while we wait for this problem to right itself...let's open the floor how do people feel about respect in the bdsm sense, many feel they *must* respect dominants cuz they are dominants <`barak> ? ? * SilverOz grins and promises not to rant about that one... * totty grins yes `barak ? ? NO lol yes warri? <`barak> i will accord respect to other Dominants, until they give me reason not too...but i am also only submissive to one person...not all ppl welcome back sara :) wb sara and jesse :-) <`barak> i have had dominants tell me to submit...that doesn't engender respect * ^jeff^ says that no matter who, unless i can accept them in that personna zone - they cannot be respected some PPL I have me tdo not earn my respect -> [sara{X^L}] PING i agree warri :) in the rather binary IRC worls, they all think I'm dom so it doesn't arise... so why should I respect them so how do we respect dominants? is it earnt? oooh back <`barak> wb sara{X^L}` but I've seen a few who I think need to learn calm and control and manners for sure. ok...are we in action again? I respect *people*. which end of the whip they have is irrelevant to me exactly SO -> [sara{X^L}] PING * aquaboy thinks barak and I come from the same school. Respect is earnt not so much by deeds but by a whole lot more. In my life I am in a position of power, but I choose sexually to submit, tis a wonderful release, so I have to get to know the one I submit to, the earning of that respect is a mutual thing, not something just demanded. My Work collegues sometimes try the Atilla the Hun routine, I dont and my seems to work better than theres although I can respect somene as a dom, or to be more exact, their abilities <^jeff^> i have a female boss who knows her industry inside out. she is vanilla but whenever she says to do anything i nearly go down on my knees but as I don't interact with people as BDSm roles, it's not relaly relevant ok lets continue <`barak> i am in a similar position to aquaboy in any scene be it private, public or even on irc.. respect is shown by discussing limits, fears and safe words BEFORE the session starts. If a Dom/me says that you dont need to, that they would never hurt you..finish it before it begins no matter how convincing they seem ..the simple accord of respect is not present shall we let sara continue? sorry bout the size of that post, got on my soap box <^jeff^> to gain respect subject knowledge has to be most important <^jeff^> yes please sara Each and every submissive is different in their mental state, the level of pain they can handle etc..too many have become victims by allowing the Dom/me free reign without setting limits first.. above all else, if in doubt dont play..full stop! Take the time to allow yourself and the Dominate to get to know each other..in that way it will soon come to the surface the degree of respect they have for you and you for them. ack. Dominant is the noun, dominate is the verb.... * `barak nods nods * SirRon{MzR} nods nods :) well please excuse this girls bad grammer... she normally does type it correctly :) *grin* got to go :(, thanks for the interesting discussion :) oxox when out in public with Your Dom/me Master/Mistress if they do or say something that you don't agree, please don't argue with your Master or Mistress in front of others, wait until you are home or behind closed doors to battle out the issue. ? <`barak> ? <^jeff^> oops yes SilverOz? i cna;t agree with that. that's a relationship boundary thing, that's for each pair to decide. Peter values my information and input, and if I think he's wrong or my opinino differs he *expects* me to say so. I don;t say "you are a twit" to him, he's not one. But I do say if I think he's wrong or I differ. ? others may do it another way. But it's not a hard and fast rule at all each "couple" works differently this is just a broad outline..of course that is to be discussed within the relationship ... then I think it's important you don't state it as a requirement, which is the impression I got from your speech., `barak what is your question * warrigal^S^ nods at SO <`barak> i agree with sara...but i see that sort of thing as a normal couple type thing...united we stand and all that <``girl``> i agree thankYou for pointing that out SilverOz...it was asked to be included so sara did * gypsy-rose agrees with sarah and barak for me its different when i am in scene i *dont* argue i agree...it's a personal thing in my relationship we always afford each other the utmost respect in public however SO: please allow sara to continue ..unless the question directly relates to some query you may have .. please keep personal comments and experiences until sara has finished OK, I understood this to be a discussion... * `barak steps down off his soap box...1 sorry all It be littles yourself in front of company and shows a lack of self disipline and also brings down the mood of those around you. Be supportive and respectful of each others opinions as much as possible if you disagree then try to keep that at home. honesty is extremely important to a relationship, lying to Your Master Master/Mistress will cause alot of anguish for both of you when the truth finally surfaces, it may even bring a finality to the union. Being dishonest is an unexcausable breach of trust and respect, remember if you lie to your Dom/me in reality you are lying to yourself. ? yes warri ? sara you see your master about to make a mistake that would embaress him would you correct him as a gorean slave that is not sara's issue.. * totty would warrigal :) * `barak has to go now...i am sorry guys :(( Masters and Mistresses are like others ...they need to learn by their own mistakes bye dude:) sara would be punished for doing so warri.. * jess{Pan} looks dizzy that is the Gorean way i know but we are not all gorean if BP were going to make a mistake that would embarass him...I'd bring it to his attention, quietly, discreetly and respectfully... Gorean? have tried very hard not to let Gorean ways creep in here warri did jess miss something here? agreed destinyBP * totty smiles at destinyBP I've done it that way destiny, and I've said "are you sure about that?" too. I figure part of my job is to look after him if he needs it. * kyla{F} smiles at sara Master wouldn't HAVE to take my suggestion... *shrugs* but at least I would have tried.. that is how i would deal with it too destinyBP :) * destinyBP nodnodnods at Silver..yup...that's kinda the way see it.. respect on irc and ways of conducting yourself within a channel. although the only times I usually need to do it is when he's made a typo at the system console, but the theory's there... look after your Master ? oh dear, i don't think i would sya that mau jesse speak please? may even? lol yes jess{Pan} <``girl``> shhhhhhhhhhhhhh let sara{X^L} get on with it In the majority of bdsm channels you should address a Dom with the title of Sir after His nick, with a Domme the title Ma'am is used. ALWAYS the first letter of their nicks is a captial. This denotes that they are a Dominate, example...hello Douglas, Sir / hello Anna, Ma'am. this one thinks that one may only think Master makes a mistake and should not judge for Him, she should trust His judgement and look to His wisdom is this wrong? well said jess{Pan} :) To err is Human jess, not to realise that an error is made is a big mistake. A very polite quite nudge is often appreiciated * belslut smiles... no jesse :-) thank you * kyla{F} smiles * jess{Pan} quiets in bdsm D/s channels that don't require you to use the title of Sir or Ma'am, if you still wish to, then do so..it is simple courtesy and costs you nothing more than a couple of keystrokes. Don't think that small amount of undue respect will go unoticed because it will be, Dominates are very observant, it may even afford you the attentions of a worthy Dom/me. I presume at the end of this we get to say our pieces? ? * vidette{CL} sits on SO...yes :) yes You do SilverOz ok yes mysteyes? ooo..you're quite comfy SO :) hmm, don't worry, i'll save it til end, go on sara:) as sara said before a bratty smartmouthed submissive doesn't do themselves any favors by being so. It is not clever, you can still have fun, offer witty inteligent conversation it is much more appreciated than slighting other people to draw attention to yourself. * kyla{F} smiles happily as her Master enters. If you wish to speak to someone in private message, please afford them a degree of respect by asking the person in question on channel if you may do so. It isn't very likely that the person will refuse the request. * ``girl`` looks Scuse me Sir, but we are having a subspeak right now. I was unaware... * Forbin` smiles and departs thank You Sir its ok im pming the dominants as they come in oh ok totty To msg without seeking permission first may attract the lable of being a troller. Trolling is not looked upon lightly and won't be tolerated by many. It may even get you kicked or banned from the channel. * kyla{F} smiles sadly at a group who does not allow this one's Master to join her. oh...so am i totty :) This one waves to her friends and leaves to join her Master. bye kyla{F}:) bye kyla{F} in the medium of irc what you type is basically the overall picture you present of yourself, most Dom/mes enjoy watching the beauty of a submissive that is graceful in their movements and well mannered. Try to conduct yourself with poise, it will take you alot further than being brash and uncouth. ? yes SirRon? are we still talking about respect? this is more respect that a sub should hold for themselves in channel on irc SirRon ? yes warri? * kate^^ tip toes in waving hello Is it not better for a sub/servant/slave online to use the prefered nick of the person they are addressing rather than adding something that has not been asked for ? let sara do the last paragraph then you can rip her to pieces.:) * totty hugs sara{X^L} <^jeff^> goodnite all, time has caught up yes sara stated that eariler warri ok that to use there nick the first letter in capital.. and that most channels require a Sir or Ma'am included * SilverOz says nothing..... * jesse{Pan} is quiet * SirRon{MzR} waits ....................out of respect You don't have to be a doormat you can show some fire and spirit and still be pleasing to those you serve. It maybe not necessarily be the way of the channel you are in, but common courtesy and respect are what people note and more often than not leaves a lasting favourable impression. the floor is all yours... discussion open thank you sara ....you have done very well....your effort is very much appreciated .... :) thank you sara :) Thank you sara thanks sara *hugs* :) honesty is extremely important to a relationship, lying to Your Master Master/Mistress will cause alot of anguish for both of you when the truth finally surfaces, it may even bring a finality to the union. Being dishonest is an unexcausable breach of trust and respect, remember if you lie to your Dom/me in reality you are lying to yourself. ? <``girl``> thank you sara{X^L} thankyou sara{X^L} :))) i would like to comment on this to all the subbies that whish to listen * jesse{Pan} lowers her eyes * ``girl`` listening * gypsy-rose listens *** totty changes topic to 'Respect ............ submissives and swiches ONLY Discussion begins at 9pm EST :) Please adhere to channel rules and enjoy :))' I made the mistake of lying to my Mistress * totty looks at ^SirB and points to the channel topic :)) ``girl`` listening <^SirB> nods sorry - wrong mouse thing * ``girl`` chuckles * vidette{CL} chuckles at ^SirB * SeaMist wonders what happened to the little silver one :) * jesse{Pan} looks confused much the thing im trying to say is this caused no end of anguish and hurt to both parties and when you lie to your partner <``girl``> yes it dies SilverOz <``girl``> ooooops did it change the level of respect for both of you Ron ? <``girl``> i mean SirRon{MzR} wb destinyBP :) partner? you hurt yourself more that you could even imagine * jesse{Pan} settles quietly * mysteyes was just gonna say that b4 she started coming to ausbdsm she would go to D/s-101 where tis expected u address Dom/mes with a Sir/Ma'am...while it is a formality i find it is comforting as u know all u need to do to recieve respect is address tops with a SIr/Ma'am....on the other hand, when i came to ausbdsm where it is not so formal (and although that makes it a wee bit scary) it's kinda cool cos u r more able to be urself....i don't true mysteyes yes SeaMist it's a little unsettling at first for those that are used to a more formal setting <^SirB> enjoy people was it recoverable to any degree Ron ? * vidette{CL} smiles at ^SirB and unless those hurts are repaired I can't comprehend the concept of "respect" beig due to a capital letter... if I'm close enoug to someone to see themn as dom, then my respect/care will be obvious without titles * destinyBP ponders...I just have a REAL problem calling everyone Sir or Ma'am merely because they may fancy themselves a DOm/me... I refuse to pander to some horny, pimply faced kids fantasy that bdsm is just a way to get a kinky online wank...I just refuse to be a party to that.. lol, true good point destinyBP ok so for the newbies how do you act real time at a club or something? * destinyBP has been raised by both her parents (in vanilla life) and by her Master in BDSM, to believe that respect is not an automatic..it is EARNED...whether you are Dom/me or sub... respect isn't your god-given right..it is something you earn through your words and actions.. :) this isn't the army... and even in the army you know an officer has had *some* training this one must go and she thanks you so if i call a Dom/me, Sir/Ma'am , because i enjoy it, i won't be jumped on by others? <``girl``> excuse me if i am wrong here, but even in most Gorean channels it is considered very rude to call any Dominent Sir or Ma'am.... no lil_minx :) you dont I think you have to ask the person you are going to call that it is Master or Mistress.. because is it really "respect" if they don't like the title? or is it you using them to get your jollies? * destinyBP wouldn't jumop on ya lil^minx...in many ways...it boils down to personal preference :)) sara i got in trouble once online for calling a Domme Mistress which I meant as a term of respect <``girl``> thats correct, and this also tears at the fibre of bdsm because a sub has one Master or Mistress (usually) that she will call Master or Mistress * lil_minx smiles... I get called "Sir" an awful lot. it does annoy me that people think they are respecting me when they don't even bother to find out simple info about me first... yes sara does also...all the time She did not see it that way she tries very hard when in bdsm channels not to do so but slips from time to time * destinyBP pulls out her switch hat and states, when she Dommes, she DETESTS it when subbies call her Mistress...the only person who has that right is [darrius], my collared sub... * totty just follows the channel rules <``girl``> i agree destinyBP * warrigal^S^ asks first now if it is required to call Sir or Ma'am i do however if not i dont * destinyBP nods to warri.... SilverOz I remember when I first met you, I had to ask, some subs are scared to asked just in case they get it wrong. If ever I am confused I say Ma'am/Sir????? I get Thorfy to call me M'Lady because I don't like Mistess. but that's him and me.... <``girl``> i will call a Master or Dom Sir if i am having a very serious discussion, otherwise i use their name only better then Master/Mistress, cause as already pointed out those names are reserved for most i used to call all Dom/mes Sir and Ma'am until i actually got out and met most of these ppl face to face...it seems a little strange calling your friends Sir or Ma'am lol, i can imagine aquaboy: *nod* I rpefer to be called SO or Silver or Zebee. I dislike peopel who I am not in a BDSM relationship with seeing me in BDSM terms. They haven't *earned* the right to see me as a dom or as a sub. that SeaMist is something i dont know the only thing i can think of doing at the moment is trying to amend whats already been done and try to make amends on a personal level brb hi kenji{W}t :) this is something recent Ron ? my apologies for tardiness True SO, but for me you are a differnt one altogether, being switch rather than clearly one way or the other. (I have no problem with that just not much experience in that regard) hiya cheekybren * SilverOz notes that just cos you have a lower case letter doesn't give you the right to see me as somene you can treat as a dom and get your sub kicks. - a concept often not thought on. no SeaMist ausbdsm was the first channel that sara went to that the titles Sir/Ma'am were not expected to be used yes...same here sara{X^L} showing respect in cyber is one thing...i mean, u address with politeness and so forth, but what in r'l do u do to show respect.... aqua: seems to me that it applies to anyone. Why should anyone have to be seen as a BDSM roel first instead of a person first? it was hard to get used to i mean what do u do to show respect? myst: depends on the venue. I'd say if it was important to you, then do it in body language. eyes down and speak little. mysteyes...i follow my Master's orders...if he says call 'em Sir, i call 'em Sir when in play sara uses the title Master or Sir.. depending on whom she is playing with.. * destinyBP ponders...much of my "Sir/Ma'am" thing depends on if I am in "normal" mode, or if Master has me on full formal manners, in which case EVERYONE but BP and other subs, are addressed as Sir or Ma'am.... but I think in a public venue it's even more important to be sure that you are giving respect where it is both due and wanted * mysteyes doesn't understand how eyes down and speaking little is all that respectful though * cheekybren nods at mysteyes mysteyes..they are signs that a dominant will recognise myst: how is using a thing like "Sir" about "respect"? both are about saying "I'm sub and I know you are dom" i guess its the differnce in lifestyles and how differnt lifestyles show respect wb totty :) SO true, but I spose it does give ppl new to whats going on an idea. Most of what we have discussed tonight is what we would expect to see in Vanilla life ( or hope anyway) common courtesy, no yobbo types yelling out thir sexual desires. And Jumping up on my soapbox for all to hear * aquaboy I get the shits with all those bloody yobbos, ruining the reputation of decent men and women for their selfish acts if you met up with say Fred Hollows or some other person who has done a lot for humanity and you respected them, then how woul dyou show that? is respect in a BDSM venue the same or different? i can see ir point SO but in my life i am often lowering my eyes and speaking little..., but it's out of fear, not respect aqua: pretty much. the rest is more about etiquette than good manners, and that differs place to place. simple good manners is usually enough till you know the little tricks of a palce i would say mysteyes...that is an issue you need to deal with aside from bdsm then myst: interesting... in that stereotypical submissive behaviour is also stereotypical fear behaviour... there's a can of worms for another time :) * mysteyes nods Same SO, you may not like his religous views, but he has done great things, hence you repsect him, like in BDSM your kink may not be mine, may even revolt me (speaking genericaly here) but none of business to say anything bad about it * destinyBP smiles at Silver....cans of worms...taht we'll have to go fishing with some other time ;) maybe something you could present to the group Zebee? :) dunno vidette. I get fairly analytical about this sort of thing and also rather umm... non-mainstream. I dunno if people would like my radical ideas :) * vidette{CL} smiles...i can't imagine that lol when we talk of respect do we mean like, love, affection...etc consideration...? for your own Dom/Master mysteyes? I don't mean those myst. I mean I esteem them, think they have more than common worth and ability love and affection is different.. I ca love soeone I respect of course :) well, what i mean is....if i respect someone then i generally have other feelings for them...like love and so forth *nod* different strokes.. I respect several people who I don't like very much :) i generally have respect for everyone until they stuff it up :)) <`girl`> dammit wb girl * destinyBP ponders...must be a personal preference thing..cause I respect CrimsonLord..but I don't love him.... <`girl`> thanks :) <`girl`> respect is for ppl who you believe in there are levels of respect tho isnt there? <`girl`> whom you trust I do tend to find liking engenders respect. in that I liking often comes cos I think someone is a class act no, u don't understand what i mean....i guess i'm just differrent, i couldn't say i respect any one i don't like well thank goodness for that destinyBP :) * destinyBP winks at vidette...yeah..I figured you'd like that ;) * vidette{CL} laughs * destinyBP grins and nods to Silver..preciesly * destinyBP sighs as her spelling starts to flag already I know people whose abilities I respect, but who I don't like. Names would mean nothing to you, so I can't illustrate it well well if you want to respect way out to its limits, Many of our Leaders are respected by ppl that have never met them, just seen there deeds, so yes there are always different levels or perhaps more to the point types do they ever regain that respect you had for them * totty nods totty Umm.. I have never liked Malcolm Fraser, but I respect him. yes SirRon{MzR} and how do they do that what do u respect about him SO? how do they stuff it up? they lie usually in any way or show me no respect for my opinions or are you saying what they stuff up is what they fix his integrity, his abilities in the Commonwealth comissions, his wisdom. he's grown a lot since he lost office, and he's an impressive human being now. Exactly SO, but there are things he did that were not popular but someone had to do the nasty for the good of all, so it all boils down to be decent human beings and careing for others. Personalities will then dictate whom is liked and not ( and usually for the strangest reasons) u think that of him...? so why don't u like him SO?? no im saying i loose respect if people arent straight with me * destinyBP wants to go back to warri's question about the Dom getting ready to do something that would embarass him....(or that you THINK would embarass him)... I don;t like his politics, I don't like a number of the things he's done, I don't like the way he comes across on certain issues. IC but wth people I know more than casually, I do find like and respect usually linked. cos I respect attitudes I like i missed that destinyBP * mysteyes nods thats why life is so good, we all come from differnt places, and most have something good to do. (not talking about the thugs murderers etc, but they are there as well .... well..warri asked what do you do when your Dom/me is about to make a mistake that is potentially embarassing (or something you THINK is a mistake)...and I want to know more of how y'all think about that? SirRon{MzR} i dont respect a dominant because he/she is a dominant i respect them for who and what they are warri asked sara if she would correct her Master if He was going to publicily embarress Himself ..she said as a gorean slave it wasnt her position to do so ok thats cool * totty would say something quietly for sure * cheekybren nods at totty * destinyBP nods to sara..yeah *grins* I understood your answer I was just fishing for some other ideas.. okay totty..HOW would you go about it? destinyBP...i certainly would say something...but i would try not to bring it to anyone else's attention I think it can depend on what the thing is... and how you can prevent it CL would expect me to say something ask if i could speak to Him for a sec quietly and voice my opinion and it would be His choice a tap on the arm is different to "are you sure about that?" and different from pulling him from in front of a bus whether to listen or not and regardless i might be wrong myself I mean I've done the "sniviling" "Master, you are so intelligent and wonderful I'm sure you realize that l ighting the hair on your chest to show fireplay is not a good idea" (NOT an actuall case...just a far out example) * warrigal^S^ chuckles hehehe heehhe * totty cracks up * destinyBP aggreed with whoever earlier said that as a sub .. it is our job to take care of our Dom/mes...becaue I very much DO see it like...we are there to take care of them....just as they care for us... so where does a subbie stand in speaking their mind with their Master/Mistress....are u expected to just shutup and obey them? I take care of Peter in various ways. it's a kink really - service sub no mysteyes you are expected to be honest with them depends on the relationship myst. in mine, I give information which includes how I feel if you have a problem you mist talk to them about it hge gets to decide what to do with thgat information must even I thought someone was earlier dismissing that idea that we take care of them...like we are mere subs and can barely care for ourselves, much LESS our Dominant.. i think in a relationship...you learn to communicate in subtle ways anyway...a look between CL and i can mean a lot that others aren't aware of * totty lurrrrrrrrrrves to take care of her Master and if it's a serious relationship problem, we are not dom and sub but two people who want to make sure the other is OK and happy and don't want to lose each other * totty nod nods at vidette{CL} destinyBP some may disagree but maybe it takes more to sub than to Dom? * mysteyes nods nods at SO i see it like this - i would only sub for someone who I respect and know they respect me - then everything else is easy :) -relatively that is * destinyBP nods to aqua..but I think what I'm trying to say is HOW can someone think that subs should NOT consider what they do as "taking care" of their Masters...or maybe I just totally misread what was said..it was a one line, kinda offhand remark..and I think that person has left, so I can't ask them.. it seems like a ego trip to say that u can not correct ur Master/Mistress in public....is this becos of how it makes others feel, or becos it may embarrass the top? I think that depends on what the sub and the dom are doing aqua again i guess its the differnce in lifestyles and how differnt lifestyles show respect hmmm mysteyes...i wouldn't say an ego trip...it boils down to respect what would you do warri? it comes back to the notion of submission as a gift - how the top behaves shows how they see the gift ask to have a quiet word but respect Her right to say no and leave it at that * SilverOz ponders... I dunno I need to actively think about showing respect for Peter. anyone who knows us knows how I feel. So mostly it will show because it is there, anything else is almost playacting * kenji{W}t nods in agreeance at cheekybren's statement but vidette..does it mean you respect your Master/Mistress less if you politely and quietly offer an alternative solution to what they are about to do, that you THINK will embarass them? * totty smiles at warrigal^S^ even tho destiny is not here...i'll answer her question...no it does not mean i respect Him any less oh ther eyou are :) its true, i bring something to Her but the respect comes in when i dont persist adn let Her decide I joke with him and tease him and such, so I suppose somoene who doesn't know either of us might get an odd impression, but if they hang around long enough they'll get the right one ok, to all the DOM/mes here, if ur sub was to try and correct u in public, would it bother you, and if so, would it be becos you would take it as lack of respect, or becos u would be embarrassed, or what...? her I are vidette *winks* and yeah warri..youa re right...I may say to Bp "I think this could be a bad idea"..but I respect Him enough to sit back having said that and let Him do what He will....(and NOT even THINk about saying "I told you so" if He ignores my advice and does it anyway :)) I trust Thorfy enough to know that if he said "you ahve it wrong" then I'd have it wrong. he's got plenty of brains and knowledge and often he is better at some things than me. So how could I be embarassed? * warrigal^S^ nods * mysteyes nods, ok <`girl`> there are no Doms here mysteyes, but switches... although a little different pretty close I think any Dom/me that gets upset about their sub attempting to correct them (if done in a quiet, discreet manner and not SCREAMING it out in the middle of a club)..I think any Dom.me that gets pissed, is doing so out of insecurity in what they are doing.. mysteyes i think it comes down to the way you deal with a situation like that...discreetly is best I might say "are you sure" but usually I can quickly see he's right. If I don;t think he is, I'll check why he thinks it's so most dominants will ask you why its just their nature and i guess it works both ways....a Dom/me would not correct their sub in public in a loud, abrupt manner, etc? I respect Thorfy's brains and abilities. hell, one of the fun things about him :) I wouldn't be with one who did myst.... ummmmmmmmm some do mysteyes <`girl`> yes some very much do but is that fair? would the subbies here stand for that? there is no generic dom :) yes some do mysteyes and some like it in my relationship it is something we agreed on very early on...we always support each other in public even if one of us is wrong depends on the relationship * cheekybren nods at wise totty * mysteyes nods, ok If I was about to walk in front of a bus, I'd expect him to pull me back. other times if he thinks it has to be done he does it subtly sometimes its part of some peoples public play to do that, humiliation scenes too <`girl`> stand for it?? one has to if that is the type of relationship they have if it was something that would hurt CL or embarrass him, i would say something discreetly * destinyBP chuckles..Bp regularly corrects me in public..I just count myself lucky that He does so with a look, or a discreet grip on my arm.. :) Although He sometimes threatens to have me kneel in busy stores or sidewalks to remind me of my place ;) but that kind of relationship should be negotiated I think girl. it's part of the "do we fit" thing... * warrigal^S^ grins tro destinyBP i know that feeling * vidette{CL} chuckles...CL has a method of gagging me (mind you i've never given him an opportunity to use it in public) * destinyBP winks and nods.... <`girl`> yes true SO but these are all usually worked out prior i just don't like the idea of having to respect my Mistress in one way, but not recieve that same respect back.. * destinyBP rotfl at vidette as her imagination goes wild... exactly girl. it's a negotiatin thing. exactly destinyBP ;) myst: bingo :) but i guess as u say, it depends on the individuals i think chances are then mysteyes, that you wuldn't be in a rel with that person very true mysteyes * mysteyes nods, i guess not *G* in relationships where negotiation of that kind takes place though everyones Differnt well all..I've got to get offline..I got in trouble last night cause I didn't come to bed when I said I would *sighs* kept me and BP both up till 3am, mad and grumpy and not speaking..NOT a fun way to spend the night.. urgh... nini destinyBP :)) <`girl`> night destinyBP, hugs and kisses be well destinyBP bye destiny:) nite destiny :) :) before you go destinyBP... * kenji{W}t believes in any true relationship trust, respect, caring, honesty and openness has to be a two way street between Dom and sub or the relationship is not a good one and should be left alone what vidette *smiles*? * vidette{CL} smiles...i pm'd you * mysteyes nods to kenji yes kenji :)) hmm, so i guess things like public respect should be sorted b4 problems even arise.. lots of talking and understanding each other I think so myst. part of the discussions about how the relaitonship should go. getting an idea that you both fit well that u r both after the same thing..*nods* *nodding at kenji{W}t* and thats where abuse can enter D/s when the trust is abused by Domme or sub this is why it's so important to know someone and be friends before doing the BDSM thing... it's damn easy to fall in love with the fantasy in your mind. kenji{W}t the only other thing I would add is Communication too oh very good point SilverOz * mysteyes grins and nods well warrigal^S^ i put openess and communication and honesty together ok folks...as usual we could be here all night discussing stuff...so we're going to wrap it up :) i think i kinda did that..fall in love with the fantasy OK.... bedtime for Ozes I think easy to do mysteyes next week... that's the trouble with cyber myst: dead easy to do, I did it and it was *so* simple to do. so easy.... cheers SO