Session Start: Mon Feb 15 20:18:18 1999
*** Now talking in #Subs_discuss
*** ChanOP (service@austnet.org) has joined #Subs_discuss
*** ChanOP sets mode: +o ChanOP
*** ChanOP changes topic to 'Next discussion Monday, 15 Feb. 9pm 
Topic:  OUR BDSM COMMUNITY - DO YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO IT?  
Please adhere to channel rules and enjoy :))
<vidette{CL}> ok...looks like we've got a quite night tonight
<vidette{CL}> i wanted to do this a little differently this week
<vidette{CL}> just have an impromtu discussion about our community 
and the responsibility we feel...if any...to it
<vidette{CL}> i tossed around some ideas...but please feel free to 
take the discussion where you want it
<vidette{CL}> there were a couple of different angles i thought about
<vidette{CL}> one was...why do we need to belong to a group like this?
<totty> a subbie group?
<tigereyes> safety ?
<vidette{CL}> say like ausbdsm and the community that spins off from
 that
<totty> oops
<totty> do the rules apply tonight?
<vidette{CL}> and yes...a subby group too
<vidette{CL}> i don't think so totty
<vidette{CL}> there's not many here and i'd like to hear from everyone
<totty> yes Ma'am :)
* vidette{CL} looks around the room
<sara{X^L}> well for sara to at first to keep her sanity...to not feel
 like she was a freak because she liked different things..and is 
comforting to find many others like the same things
<ffairlady> if i may vidette{CL}?
<vidette{CL}> sure ffairlady :)
<ffairlady> over the past few years on line i have found there has 
always been atype of subbie underground
* vidette{CL} nods
<ffairlady> we as a group exchange ideas .. hints... help when needed 
<ffairlady> i have belonged to ausbdsm now for a few years and over 
those years 
* barak{Ras} puts his hand up
* vidette{CL} nods to barak...in a minute darling ;)
<ffairlady> i felt a few times (not always) but soem tiems that 
subbies didnt feel confident in an opne forum to have a say on a 
certain issue
* barak{Ras} nods no problem
<vidette{CL}> oh i agree ffairlady lol
<vidette{CL}> barak?
<ffairlady> some felt that the doms may have a go at them or they 
were just not sure as to approach an issue where they would not 
offend a dom
<ffairlady> that is why i set up submission so that subs who felt 
this had a place to vent anything they wished in a safe and like 
minded setting
<vidette{CL}> or that by putting themselves on the line and saying 
*i have questions* or *i'm new* invites the predators lol
<ffairlady> yes i agree vidette{CL}
<vidette{CL}> barak?
<barak{Ras}> i have found that, since i joined the scene, that i 
have received alot of support and help from the other subs...and I
 would have made a few terrible mistakes if not for that advice and
 support
<ffairlady> as i did when frist online ... i have to admit most of 
my experience is on line not rl
<vidette{CL}> yes...i found the support vital to me
<tiger-afk> im here, not afk......me too ffairlady..
<vidette{CL}> i found i could relate to people who *understood* and 
who had experienced similar things
* ffairlady nods
<barak{Ras}> same here vidette, and it is good to be able to vent 
and ask things without having to watch what you say...so to speak
<vidette{CL}> yes...i find it so refreshing to be able to communicate
 with likeminded people
<vidette{CL}> and just be myself
<tiger-afk> i am just so gullible , i know ppl are watching out for 
me  here...
<warrigal^S^> I consider myselflucky because my first experiences in 
the scene were R/L not online but that is dangerous too
<vidette{CL}> so do you feel safer being part of this community 
tigereyes?
<barak{Ras}> i was so new and a real innocent..and i found that it 
was a big comfort to know that i had ppl watching out for me  
huggs totty 
<tiger-afk> definatly..yes..I never would have considered meeting
 ppl interested in bdsm through adds in mags or anything
<vidette{CL}> i find it important that i relate to people i 
identify with also
<tiger-afk> and this medium is safe and in R/L the ppl i have met 
have been helpful and trustworthy
<vidette{CL}> even tho our ideas may be different, belonging to a 
community that is open and supportive of it's own is important to me
* tiger-afk thanks all here, you know who you are who have helped me...
<tiger-afk> non judgemental is what i like vidette
<kitten{Ozzie^}> discussion over?
<warrigal^S^> very true tiger-afk
<vidette{CL}> we're just talking about why we need to belong to a 
community like this?
<ffairlady> i agree tiger-afk ppl accept you for who you are and that 
for me is what i reallly needed to know
<vidette{CL}> just jump in when you feel like it kitten....we've left 
the rules for tonight :)
<kitten{Ozzie^}> ok thanks vidette{CL} :)
<ffairlady> made moving to into rl so much easier
<tiger-afk> the more i listen and learn in the community , the more i 
accept myself also because others accept me as i am
<warrigal^S^> I think the biggest thing is we can learn from each other
<vidette{CL}> this community more than any other group i've ever been 
involved with..accepts people in all their wonderful diversity...that 
is a unique thing in today's society
<kitten{Ozzie^}> well for my, it is the newness, i am new, Master is 
new so it is good to mix and talk via munches and this medium to learn
 things we can try and talk about it with others
<tiger-afk> here here vidette...
* vidette{CL} nods to kitten{Ozzie^}...agreed
<warrigal^S^> the diversity is great imho too
<vidette{CL}> totty...lil-dragon??
* totty smiles
<totty> wellllllll
<totty> for me i have been very very lucky indeed 
<totty> having being mentored by some lovely Dominants
<totty> its been wonderful and god i think saved my hide so to speak
* vidette{CL} smiles
<vidette{CL}> that kinda leads me into another point
* warrigal^S^ smiles :)
<lil-dragon> for me two elements are essentual the ability to ask 
freely and without fear and to be safe
<vidette{CL}> yes...definitely
<warrigal^S^> touche lil-dragon
* totty nods
<vidette{CL}> totty your statement kinda leads me into another point...
<vidette{CL}> as a community...and in this case...a community of 
subbies...do we have a responsibility towards newer people who come 
along?
<warrigal^S^> YES definately
<vidette{CL}> or do we let them fend for themselves...find out 
their own way?
<sara{X^L}> yes oooh yes
<sara{X^L}> noooooo
<vidette{CL}> Is it better for a sub to be mentored by a Dom or 
other submissives?
<totty> no i dont believe we should, however taking advice is a 
risky thing
<kitten{Ozzie^}> god there is nothing worse then struggling to 
find your own way
<ffairlady> oh my yes ... its important that they are informed 
<warrigal^S^> a caring friend is best not necessarily dom or Sub
<tiger-afk> I listen to other subs ...I trust them implicitly
<ffairlady> especailly on the safty issues... first and formost
<tiger-afk> well, mostly...
<totty> i know when subs ask me who they should talk to i am 
*very* *very* particular on who i suggest
<warrigal^S^> tiger-afk I listen to everyone BUT I then make my 
own decision
<kitten{Ozzie^}> same as me warrigal^S^
<ffairlady> i agree with you totty in that case... of suggesting 
who to talk to that is a desision they must make for themselfs
<warrigal^S^> and ultimately we all must
<vidette{CL}> you know...we see new subs coming into the channel 
all the time...some stay...some don't...some could really use some 
guidance but don't know to ask always
<vidette{CL}> what do we do in cases like that?
<warrigal^S^> if I justlistened to subs i would have missed out 
on some wonderful experiences
* tiger-afk asks bluntly constantly....i havnt played in R/L 
* warrigal, im just being cautious, but i will make my own decision
*  when the time comes, but i definately seek guidance here...
<warrigal^S^> I usually try to offer my assistance if I cn
<kitten{Ozzie^}> well i listen to everything and then talk it over
 with my Master
<tiger-afk> but, i talk to Doms also...and anyone else wholl 
listen..lol....sorry vidette..
<vidette{CL}> no need to apologise to me tiger lol
<warrigal^S^> that is good tiger-afk
<vidette{CL}> i do too...*smiles*
<warrigal^S^> apologies are not needed
<warrigal^S^> :)
<vidette{CL}> but what i'm saying is...when we see an inexperienced 
sub come into the channel
<kitten{Ozzie^}> thing that kinda upsets or disturbs me, i see so
 many subs come in and rush into privating with the Doms and then 
thats all they seem to do
<kitten{Ozzie^}> i mean first timers
<vidette{CL}> i've watched the Doms...and not all by any means...
circle her like fresh prey
<vidette{CL}> some set themselves up for it
<kitten{Ozzie^}> yes true
<tiger-afk> geeze, thought you meant me kitten.....
<vidette{CL}> do we have a responsibility to those subs?
<kitten{Ozzie^}> lol not at all tiger :)
<tiger-afk> but they dont know theyre setting themselves up for it
,, ive been caught a couple of times..told you i was gullible.
* totty sits and watches the new subs and smiles
<kitten{Ozzie^}> not really vidette{CL} because they wouldn't 
listen initially
<kenji{W}t> i believe we do.but how do you message them and tell 
them that what they are doing is thwart with danger
<ffairlady> i like to mention the sub mailing list .. and be there 
to offer any help i can 
<totty> its a time of growth and feeling their way
<totty> god we all make mistakes
<vidette{CL}> well i would agree with ffairlady...i've started 
suggesting the sub mailing list and letting them know that 
discussions take place here on a monday
<tiger-afk> yes totty we do....
<kenji{W}t> do we then try to monotor new Doms???? and if we see one 
trolling warn the newbie
<kitten{Ozzie^}> well i muck around in the room and all, but i very 
rarely go into private with anybody, least of all the Doms, maybe 
because i have a Master, but that is just me
<sara{X^L}> if they are serious and truely wish to learn they will 
heed the words of the the more experienced subs...well sara would 
like to think they would..we can offer help and guidence..but 
ultimately it is there choice if they wish to listen
<vidette{CL}> yes...we do totty...but i watch some setting 
themselves up for a real fall...what do you do...stand by and 
watch it happen?
<ffairlady> but i would also say that i do the same with some Doms 
suggesting ausbdsm as well so its not just subs some Doms are new too 
<warrigal^S^> very true sara{X^L}
<totty> no vidette{CL} i dont......... but they have to want to listen
<tiger-afk> true ffairlady..
* vidette{CL} sighs
<totty> i can give them all the advice in the world
<vidette{CL}> yes...that's the key isn't it
<tiger-afk> i agree with you totty..
<totty> but they have to be open to it
<warrigal^S^> people dont like to be 'told' anything..
<kenji{W}t> may i ask a question vidette
<vidette{CL}> sure kenji{W}t :)
<tiger-afk> its not being told, its accepting advice...
<warrigal^S^> that depends on how its put forward
<kenji{W}t> how does a new sub differentiate between a newbie sub 
like themselves offering advice and an old boiler like some of us 
with experience
<tiger-afk> i dont get defensive warrigal, because im new i accept 
ppl are not being critical to me, they are trying to help and 
guide me..
<kenji{W}t> i have had newbies offering me advice
<totty> well often they ask kenji{W}t and someone points them 
in the direction of an experienced sub
<vidette{CL}> lol...well what do you do?
<warrigal^S^> some ppl are not like that tho
<vidette{CL}> smile and say why thank you lol
<barak{Ras}> its hard to tell, i think you just have to talk to
 a few, and find out over a period of time who to talk to, and 
who doesn't have all that much experience
<warrigal^S^> I accept advice form all ppl BUT I make my decisions 
<cheekybren> would I be right in saying that it is often the female 
subs who seem more at risk 
<kenji{W}t> yes barak but newbies might be given the wrong advice at 
first then confused about who to listen too
<tiger-afk> yes cheekybren, id say so..
<lil-dragon> no cheekybren
<vidette{CL}> i'm not sure cheekybren
<tiger-afk> oh...no ? 
<warrigal^S^> i think generally it is the females but we men tend 
to do more to prove ourselves and put up with more and more quietly
<tiger-afk> i guess it depends on the situation...
<sara{X^L}> it might seem like the females because there are more of 
them..
<cheekybren> good point warrigal^S^, i forgot that
<cheekybren> thats true also sara{X^L}
<vidette{CL}> i had a sub ask to meet me for a coffee...and i brushed
 her off thinking we had little in common
<vidette{CL}> that i couldn't sit and talk about my private life to 
this person
<lil-dragon> the nature of the issues might be diffrent with men but 
just as complex methinks
<barak{Ras}> well, i made an absolute pest of myself whenm i was a 
newbie...i asked everyone questions, and if they didn't know..i asked 
them to point me in the direction of someone who would know...BUT...i 
made my own mind up about which advice sounded sensible and which did 
not
<vidette{CL}> someone suggested that was a little harsh
<vidette{CL}> that she was new and obviously feelign her way around 
the best she could
<warrigal^S^> I have ben hurt a few times because Of my own stupidity 
we must learn from the experiences and we need to take responsiblity 
for ourselves too not expect people to do it for us
<kenji{W}t> no vidette both parties have to be comfortable..maybe you
 should have directed them to someone else to see if they could help
<tiger-afk> well, you cant save the world, and your not responsible 
vidette for all new subbies.....you dont have to be friends with 
EVERYONE....
<vidette{CL}> no..i realise that...but do you see the point i'm 
trying to make...maybe because she's new and she's seeking some 
guidance...i should be there to help
<tiger-afk> hang on, i asked to meet you for a coffee...hmm
<vidette{CL}> lol...tiger...wasn't you darling
<ffairlady> there are always munches you can steer newbies too as well 
<barak{Ras}> i am a bit like that tiger..i try to help everyone...
mainly cos i received so much help when i was new
<kitten{Ozzie^}> not always ffairlady
<ffairlady> most captial citys have them ... and some regional 
places as well
<kitten{Ozzie^}> for me i am so out of it, and i was only in brisbane 
during the week so seldom
<ffairlady> jsut depends on where you are
<tiger-afk> not necessarily vidette...exactly..munches, the 
net..etc..maybe intro to others here on the net...
<kitten{Ozzie^}> it was just fortunate they put a munch on for me 
midweek
<vidette{CL}> well..we're talking sydney here...we have a munch 
every blue moon lol
<barak{Ras}> lol..melbourne has munches on an extremely regular 
basis *smile*
<kitten{Ozzie^}> ok sorry, but there must be others in the same 
situation i am in
<cheekybren> irc was a great education for me on the 'realities' 
of D/s relationships 
<warrigal^S^> and at all sorts of times too
<kitten{Ozzie^}> me too bren
* barak{Ras} nods at warri
<ffairlady> yes i am kitten{Ozzie^} i live in country vic so i 
cant get down to most munches either but i try to as often as i can 
<warrigal^S^> It has been fro me too cheekybren
<tiger-afk> i would have been lost without everyones help....
meeting destiny and BP for a coffee was a crucial point for me
....it made a big impact on my idea of bdsm
<kitten{Ozzie^}> thats what i mean ffairlady once you know and 
have met, spoken and get to really know ppl in this life it is 
easier
<kenji{W}t> the South Aus network is brilliant..and although i 
live way out of Adelaide the support etc is wonderful between all
<ffairlady> its hard to make that first step into rl 
<vidette{CL}> yes...my meeting IRish and emerald had the same 
impact on me tigereyes...and thru them other friends
<ffairlady> yes it is kitten{Ozzie^}
<barak{Ras}> well, meeting ppl is better than going to bound 
and sitting by yourself cos too frightened to say hi to ppl...
i was almost ready to give up at that point
<totty> the subs are very supportive here we have a good network
 in place
<vidette{CL}> you are lucky there totty :)
<vidette{CL}> the sydney community seems a little fractured to me
<cheekybren> well look at me barak{Ras}, been on-line for 12 mths 
but it took 10 before i summoned the courage to 'munch'
<tiger-afk> oh barak, im so glad you have found happiness...it must
 have been awful in the beginnning
<kitten{Ozzie^}> how can i find out if there is any other life 
stylers up here?? anyone have any ideas?
<warrigal^S^> yes there is a good subbie network in SA
<vidette{CL}> lol...kitten...put an ad in the paper?
<tiger-afk> sorry kitten...no
<sara{X^L}> it is the same in Melb...they are close knit the 
subs..even the Doms..
<ffairlady> i find it so interesting but fustrating as i look 
around town ... i wonder hwo many othere subbies are here and if 
only they new there was a real communitly out here in the real world 
they would come out so to speak
<barak{Ras}> but i was lucky..SirRon and MzRita were the ones for 
me..they were the turning point
<kitten{Ozzie^}> i have thought of that vidette{CL} but how then to 
get around a contact number?
<kitten{Ozzie^}> and how to "word" it
<vidette{CL}> well...do we see our community growing to the point 
where it's profile is high enough to encourage others to come out?
<tiger-afk> but its so scary on your own, i was petrafied when i went
 to meet BP and destiny, wondering if they were a pair of evil sex 
deviates...and thank god they were...
<sara{X^L}> a p.o box kitten?
<warrigal^S^> it is always hard kitten{Ozzie^}
<vidette{CL}> kitten...wanted other kinky perverts in the local 
area...write to p.o. box...
<warrigal^S^> I have a real problem doing that too
<vidette{CL}> sorry for joking about it kitten{Ozzie^} lol
<kitten{Ozzie^}> hmm perhaps sara{X^L}, but i am soo scared of being
 found out by ppl i work with
<cheekybren> but in many ways, ppl don't understand where they are at
, and see bdsm as most vanilla do, as being very extreme
<tiger-afk> thats just it, youd get every nutcase doing something like
 that..so dangerous
* cheekybren nods vigorously at tiger-afk
<kitten{Ozzie^}> will try it vidette{CL}, think i should run it for 
a few consective days?
<vidette{CL}> can i ask that question again, in response to 
ffairlady's comment...
<vidette{CL}> <vidette{CL}> well...do we see our community growing 
to the point where it's profile is high enough to encourage others 
to come out?
<kitten{Ozzie^}> maybe vidette{CL}, but still not unless it is a 
major city :(
<tiger-afk> the gothic has helped, yes probably vidette..
<warrigal^S^> vidette{CL} itis certainly happeing here in Melbourne
<barak{Ras}> i think so vidette, and the more that we educate the 
"vanilla" world on our practices...the easier it will be as well for
 ppls to come out
<sara{X^L}> yes warri
<vidette{CL}> it sounds so exciting down there warrigal^S^
<totty> the gay community has come out, i hope its just a matter of
 time for us
<tiger-afk> jesus, not in Lismore....theyd lock me up....!!!!in 
sydney yes
<ffairlady> i think some subbies/Doms may not know there is a big 
community .. they feel they are the "only" ones 
<vidette{CL}> yes...i look at the gay community and how far they've 
come and i wonder if there's a place for us in mainstream society
<warrigal^S^> tiger-afk you may be surprised 
<kitten{Ozzie^}> but vidette{CL} it has taken them decades
<totty> oh there are soooooooo many legal aspects to address first 
vidette{CL}
<tiger-afk> i know there is a community here warrigal, but the 
vanilla ppl would freak out
<vidette{CL}> oh yes...it did...and it took a great deal of 
solidarity to get there too
* ffairlady agrees with kitten{Ozzie^} .. and i think it will 
* take a long time for bdsm as well
<cheekybren> and as well, coming out may not be what some ppl 
want  - irc is better in that it offers anon
<vidette{CL}> well that's it totty isn't it...it seems they are 
trying to outlaw everything we do
* tiger-afk nods in agreement to cheekybren
<barak{Ras}> yes it does cheekybren, but what happens when the 
urge to move beyond irc starts...
<sara{X^L}> its a vicious circle tiger..they freak out because 
they are uneducated on bdsm...but trying to educate them you more
 than often attract the tag of "freak"
<tiger-afk> you thank god for clubs barak and munches...
<cheekybren> well after at leasta month or two they will know of 
the other avenues
<kitten{Ozzie^}> my sister knows what i am but doesn't want to know 
about it
<totty> well con 99 is trying hard to get to the community, the 
unknown comminity that is
* tiger-afk sister just laughed and said...typical...
<ffairlady> may i ask how many here have told there families? 
<vidette{CL}> yes...i guess each year is another step in the right 
direction
<cheekybren> there are also heaps of 'outside' issues
<vidette{CL}> no way ffairlady 
<warrigal^S^> I hope that we can do that too totty
* ffairlady has told hers
<tiger-afk> not my mother...sister yes...
<kenji{W}t> i have and they burst out laughing thinking it was 
another one of my pranks
<cheekybren> none
<vidette{CL}> i told a friend of 27 years...and lost her
<tiger-afk> no way vidette....
<tiger-afk> not a friend then/
<vidette{CL}> she freaked
<kitten{Ozzie^}> i only talk to my sister in my whole family, 
my mother is dead
<warrigal^S^> that happen all too often v
* cheekybren nods at tiger-afk
<vidette{CL}> no...in the end...not a friend
<ffairlady> some thing similar happened to me to vidette{CL} ..
 i even told my boss
<kenji{W}t> my two close friends are very supportive...even bring 
me a pillow to work on those days i have away with someone
<sara{X^L}> one of sara's sisters knows..only because she is a Domme
<barak{Ras}> well, i sent an email to my sister the other day...and
 i sent it under my nick with the collar attatched...and she asked me 
what it was...
<tiger-afk> geeze, its only one aspect of life....
* ffairlady smiles at kenji{W}t
<vidette{CL}> can i ask ffairlady...why did you feel you needed 
to share it with others?
<vidette{CL}> ooo...barak i've done that to my mother and my 
ex-husband lol
<sylk> most of my friends know- but they all took it pretty well- 
surprisingly the more conservative ones were very supportive, the 
ones i thought were more liberal were more shocked- on the whole 
everuyone was pretty accepting- i guess those who knew i was bi  
werent too surprised
<ffairlady> it was important for me to tell them ... explain to 
them so that when things happened if they happend (marks ect) 
they new it was somethign i wanted not abuse
* vidette{CL} nods
<barak{Ras}> *nods* lol..yeah, and i told her it was a collar,
 she wasn't really paying attention...and today i got an email
 back from her...whats a collar???
<tiger-afk> lol barak
<vidette{CL}> i recently started this thread on another list i 
belong to...i asked how others dealt with telling people
<ffairlady> and i find it important to share with those closest
 to me .. its a honesty thing for me
<kenji{W}t> i think we all have a need to share as it to give 
submission to another is such an incredible gift and milestone 
in our lives that it is hard not to have someone especially aclose 
friend to  be with
<warrigal^S^> vidette{CL} I do not tend to tell ppl unless they ask
<vidette{CL}> i have a desire to tell those closest to me...to be 
honest with them about who i am...but i fear losing them
<ffairlady> its taken my brothers 2 years to talk to me agian ..
but they are cool now
<kitten{Ozzie^}> i get so tired of saying my Master is my boyfriend :(
<sara{X^L}> a close friend knows what sara is into she thinks 
she is twisted..but she still is my friend..is not judgemental
<vidette{CL}> it's just a strange existence sometimes...D/s is
 such an enormous part of my life...i feel like i wear two faces
* barak{Ras} would love to tell his family...but does not want to be
*  ostracised by them either
<sara{X^L}> same here vidette
<ffairlady> i dont tell everyone i meet tho 
<kenji{W}t> my friends.one who is very straight vanilla surprised me 
when i mentioned it to her half heartedly and she is my greatest 
comfort at times
<cheekybren> well as a fairly normal aussie male, i could never see 
myself telling another male - i have told a fem caousin and she 
has been supportive
<warrigal^S^> vidette{CL} we all wear many masks
<vidette{CL}> yes warri...that seems to be how it is
<vidette{CL}> i struggle with that
<tiger-afk> i wouldnt want to hurt my mum, she wouldnt understand, 
though she would be supportive..why upset her
<warrigal^S^> I do not but maybe I am just strange
<vidette{CL}> there have been times when something has affected me 
greatly in one way or another with regard to my lifestyle and i've 
had to lie to my family to cover
<warrigal^S^> :)
<barak{Ras}> i have tried to approach it obliquly with my freinds...
but the reactions were not promising :((
<vidette{CL}> and the funniest thing at the dinner table the other 
night...
<sylk> i couldnt trell my family- they wouldnt understand
<cheekybren> just be true to yourself - life is too short to live
 it to others conceptions :)
<vidette{CL}> my daughter was talking about who was the boss of 
who...that i was the boss of her and my mum was the boss of me etc
<warrigal^S^> there is only one member of my family that knows and 
he is cool
<sylk> and it is a hard thing to explain- for me anyways
<kenji{W}t> here here cheekybren
<vidette{CL}> she looked at me and said...and is Patrick the boss 
of you mummy?
<cheekybren> if you want to tell them - then do.  if not, ok 
<kitten{Ozzie^}> lol vidette{CL}
<barak{Ras}> lol vidette{CL}
<vidette{CL}> my mother nearly choked on her food and said NO 
MAN IS THE BOSS OF YOUR MUMMY
<ffairlady> hehehehe
<cheekybren> hehehe vidette{CL}
<vidette{CL}> i just said there and thought...whooo...if only 
you knew lol
<tiger-afk> thats what my mother would say....
<warrigal^S^> LOL
<barak{Ras}> heheheheheheheh vidette{CL}
<cheekybren> thats where outside influences come in such as the 
thread on ausbdsm about feminism
<cheekybren> sisters must cop a bit from other women :(
<tiger-afk> yes cheeky thats right
<vidette{CL}> well...i believe you can still be strong and 
independent and many of the things that feminism stands for...
but you don't need to be in control of everything all of the time
<sara{X^L}> one the media start casting bdsm in a more true and 
realistic light ..it will become much eaiser for it to be accepted 
in mainsteam society
<barak{Ras}> thats true sara
<tiger-afk> exactly vidette, i get sick to death of being in 
control all the time...i want to be submissive...
<barak{Ras}> but what to do until then???
<mysteyes> hide out
<cheekybren> thats exactly why i sub tiger-afk  hehehe
<vidette{CL}> well...as a community...back to the beginning...
do we have a responsibility to help that happen barak...or will 
it just happen by itself?
<warrigal^S^> my own opinion is that we maybe submissive BUT we 
we are not any less than anyone else
<barak{Ras}> lol mysty...thats true
<sara{X^L}> try to promote ourselves that way barak
* barak{Ras} agrees with you sara{X^L}
<kenji{W}t> while we do not lay on our backs and cop things 
missionary style but experiment with life, emotions and 
feelings the lifestyle will alays be seen as freakish and not 
for the personal growth it offers
<cheekybren> we shouldn't get all breast beating about it - as 
if the media would ever portray ANYTHING correctly
<totty> it will take some very strong individuals to promote 
bdsm to the main stream
<vidette{CL}> i wonder if the media will cover any of con99..
.does anyone know?
<warrigal^S^> very trus totty
* tiger-afk nods at cheekybren....
<barak{Ras}> i agree...it will have to be done by ppl who have 
no fear of losing things
<cheekybren> not sure if it ever will totty, there is a lot in 
bdsm that scares ppl because they can see themselves liking 
parts of it
<totty> we are looking at that atm vidette{CL}
<barak{Ras}> no idea vidette, 
<vidette{CL}> it just seems to run parallel to the gay and lesbian 
lifestyle
<warrigal^S^> I think not vidette{CL} other than maybe the 
underground press maybe
<sylk> would a preess release of some form be beneficial?
<kenji{W}t> well vidette if the media covers Conn there will 
be many with their heads in a bag trying hard to avoid being 
seen by their bosses and family
* mysteyes nods at vidette
<warrigal^S^> sylk many ppl would not like that
<vidette{CL}> a shame...even if it was portrayed lightheartedly...
<barak{Ras}> could do sylk...but you are still dealing with the media 
and how THEY will portray it
<kitten{Ozzie^}> me being one of them kenji{W}t
<cheekybren> unfortunatley lightheartedly does the most damage 
<kenji{W}t> me also kitten
<tiger-afk> its funny how ppl would see us as freaks when we are so 
nomal...and im being serious
<barak{Ras}> me too kitten
<sylk> perhaps a spopkesperson not so much as taping the entire con
<kenji{W}t> yes tiger we are normal.just more accepting
<cheekybren> listend to ruth ostrow one night laughing about a guys 
fetish about being a vase - she was so cruel.  i wanted to Dom the bitch
<vidette{CL}> so we continue to flourish underground...i can accept 
that...but i can't accept that somebody somewhere can make a law 
saying what i choose to do is illegal
<barak{Ras}> i agree tiger...we are also more accepting of things 
outside of the norm
<warrigal^S^> very true tiger-afk and we are honest enough to 
express our emotions
<totty> there are so many variables
<totty> like our children
<totty> our careers
<totty> so many things to put at risk of coming out
* cheekybren nods at totty
<tiger-afk> yes....and i would like to find out ruth ostrows 
kink and make a fool of her also
* vidette{CL} nods
<kitten{Ozzie^}> well with me now it is grandchildren
<warrigal^S^> true totty :)
<sara{X^L}> yes...that is true totty
* cheekybren nods at tiger-afk
* mysteyes is a lesbian and coming out about that is jus like 
* coming out about being into bdsm, and laws against bdsm are 
* like laws against same sex sex
<tiger-afk> i cant stand ppl who belittle other ppl .
<totty> i *will not* risk my children being ridiculed for my kink
<cheekybren> and remember, this is PART of my life, not all
<barak{Ras}> well, hasn't NSW just passsed a privacy law that 
means that anything done in the privacy of the home is acceptable
...as long as it does not involve killing or maiming ppl permanently,
 and is consensual
<vidette{CL}> no...i agree totty...my children are completely 
protected from my own personal choices
<kenji{W}t> well 2 1/2 years ago i was a quiet withdrawn person...
unsure of herslf, non confident and D/s changed all that and that is 
what people cannot see what the lifestyle can do for personal growth
<vidette{CL}> i don't know barak...but that sounds fair
<cheekybren> and you should both be commended for that stand :)
<sylk> i was of the understanding that the federal government were 
tightening the laws of bdsm and fetish activity
<totty> they are sylk
<barak{Ras}> i seem top remember reading about it...but it is 
untested tho...so no idea what bent the courts will put on it
<vidette{CL}> that's what i thought sylk...
* barak{Ras} thinks
* vidette{CL} thinks...now that she's starting law school...
* these are things to investigate thoroughly lol
<totty> depends on the state law
<barak{Ras}> ohh thats right...Mistress told me about it..i 
remember now
<warrigal^S^> good idea vidette{CL}
* kenji{W}t makes a moton for the books..deport all Tasmanian and
*  take over the island and call it tasfetish state
<cheekybren> well maybe vanillas migth get worried when scratching 
your lovers back becomes defined as illegal  hehehe
* barak{Ras} seconds that motion kenji
<vidette{CL}> well...it is a curly one...there are many angles to 
look at
<vidette{CL}> but we would be here all night :)
<barak{Ras}> lol..true vidette
<vidette{CL}> does anyone have anything more to add...or to ask? :)
<totty> i think we all just need to be as supportive of each other
 as we can be
<totty> and be honest and truthful
<vidette{CL}> i agree...and to nurture our community
* barak{Ras} doesn't...but he also missed a bit cause of family on
*  the phone
<tiger-afk> id just like to say, as a newbie, the support is 
paramount...and i for one really appreciate it...
* kitten{Ozzie^} smiles at tiger
<kenji{W}t> if you see a newbie sailing inot shadowed aters tell
 them to contact someone you feel might help them if you are new 
yourself
<barak{Ras}> *nods* thats true tiger...the support is paramount
<tiger-afk> ok...ill do that
<vidette{CL}> now...before we all leave...
* barak{Ras} is always directing newbies to vidette{CL}, or 
* totty, or chime, or sara{X^L}, or others *smile*
<sara{X^L}> sara can remember her mothers family being outraged 
at her mother going to S.A. to have her photo taken standing 
outside the first sex shop in aust...nearly 30 years down the track..it 
is mainstream, sex shops everywhere..we may have hope yet
<vidette{CL}> i'm going to hand the reigns over to someone else 
for next week...who's going to be brave enough?? :))
<vidette{CL}> lol sara{X^L}
<vidette{CL}> oh thanks barak{Ras} lol
<kenji{W}t> that will depend on tomorrow for me vidette
<barak{Ras}> no problem vidette{CL} *grin*
Session Close: Mon Feb 15 22:24:00 1999