FRom cafe.utne.com Literature conference, Utne haiku topic:
Literature.70.94: Jak King (jakking) Sat, 07 Feb 1998 01:56:31 CST (2 lines)
We seem to have strayed wildly away from 5-7-5 syllables. These are
anarchist haiku, I guess.
Literature.70.95: Victoria Oak (lane52) Sat, 07 Feb 1998 02:06:19 CST (9 lines)
no way Jak - the 5-7-5 is a western imposition upon the form - to try
and "get" the sound of Japanese syllabization. . .but the Japanese do
not follow any such stricture of syllable count. . .so relax, let it
flow. . .try to include nature. . .observe, capture the moment, they
say - do not interpret. . .and enjoy!
Rules? We don't need no stinkin' rules! ;-)
ps i could invert my 2nd and 3rd lines if you would feel better
Literature.70.97: Jak King (jakking) Sat, 07 Feb 1998 08:15:32 CST (5 lines)
I wasn't complainin', merely commenting.
=========================
Someone else posted elsewhere:
"It's a poem meant to be spoken in a single breath."
==========================
More "anarchist haiku"
http://www.webcom.com/~erique/haiku/haiku.html
Various Hauku sites:
http://www.taoismandpoetry.org/
http://www.ori.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~dhugal/haikuhome.html http://home.sol.no/~keitoy/haiku.html
http://www.magnetica.com/hai-rise/
http://www.faximum.com/aha.d/keirule.htm http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~leslieob/haiku.html (links only)
http://www.cc.matsuyama-u.ac.jp/~shiki/Start-Writing.html http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ikunen/haiku/
http://mikan.cc.matsuyama-u.ac.jp/~shiki/
http://www.into.demon.co.uk/compfrnt.htm (contest only)
http://www.webcom.com/erique/haiku/haiku.html (contest only)
On the other hand:
Literature.70.158: Jak King (jakking) Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:29:57 CST (3 lines)
The rules of haiku
Make you think really deeply.
That's the point, I think.
Literature.70.159: Eric Frazier (gaidheal) Sun, 01 Mar 1998 20:31:01 CST (3 lines)
Words struggle to live
Emerge from stasis to live
As moth to the flame
Literature.70.160: hazel (hazel) Mon, 02 Mar 1998 04:07:46 CST (12 lines)
Crystallizing feeling
In a single simple phrase --
An Oriental gift?
[yes I *know* Oriental is a non_pc choice of word but it fit the line,
and had the feeling I wanted, OK?]
Nancy Chestnut (nanc1) Sun, 08 Mar 1998 09:34:02 CST (3 lines)
Sharing our souls in
Seventeen spare syllables
We structure and shape
this would argue against my "emotion" haikus:
hazel (hazel) Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:22:14 CST (3 lines)
Existential angst
and delicate haiku form
don't amalgamate.
Jak King (jakking) Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:21:45 CST (3 lines)
Monosyllabic
Is a five syllable word;
Form over substance.
FYI Haiku Info (lane52) Sun, 05 Apr 1998 03:35:17 CDT (9 lines)
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FYI
A wonderful resource about the history / philosophy / form etc. of
Japanese verse, including Haiku, is:
"The Haiku Seasons, Poetry of the Natural World" by William J.
Higginson, Kodansha Int'l 1996.
Very accessible - informative.
on haiku (bwing) Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:46:53 CDT (19 lines)
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Derek, haiku is primarily a means of expressing content. The form is
almost irrelevant, except for its brevity, which is crucial.
Haiku is like a brush stroke - you can't take it back. It's the moment
that you see that you write about. Look around you for a moment of
drama - the grasshopper leaping off the leaf, movement of any kind, a
sudden color or sound. My husband wrote a fine haiku about crows
fighting overhead, for example. But you only use a few words to
describe this - the fewer, the better - see how much meaning you can
pack into 17 syllables.
Then you can put in something to suggest one of the four seasons, if
you like, to be traditional.
But the drama and the intensity are what's important. IMO, of course
:)
Derek Mok (derekmok) Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:13:17 CDT (18 lines)
Again, I am aware that the original intention of the haiku form is to
capture thought freely.
But I maintain my argument: English is not a language which lends
itself to easy expression in a five-syllable line. Even with
enjambment the lines are too short for the English language to express
complex thoughts adequately. In Asian languages (such as Chinese)
that is much more easily done because they usually don't have
conjugations, declensions, even plurals, and parts of syntax vital to
English (subject, object, verb, etc.) can be left out without loss to
meaning. Such is not the case in English, which is by nature an
impure, patchwork language involving multiple sources for grammar
and vocabulary (that is also why it's so adaptable).
The original haiku concept may value clarity through simplicity, but
it seems to me that in English, in order to write in the haiku form,
free-falling words constrained within the five-seven-five format is
too loose, risking the sacrifice of meaning and sophistication.
Literature.70.332: Suzanne (bwing) Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:21:03 CDT (11 lines)
So you think all haiku in English is bad? I've seen very beautiful
and dramatic English haiku done in the traditional manner. Please
provide examples of the inadequacy you speak of.
I'm sure there are Japanese people who would agree with you, but on
the other hand, I know of an old Japanese man who has exchanged haiku
by mail with an old American man for many years. One writes in
English, the other in Japanese.
Some people just don't care for imagist poetry, which is basically
what haiku is in English. I love it myself.
Literature.70.333: Derek Mok (derekmok) Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:04:46 CDT (24 lines)
Suzanne:
To answer your first question -- no, I don't think all English haiku
is bad. All I was saying is that it may not necessarily be a good
idea to apply the kind of free-flowing thought that the haiku's
original "laws" (intended for the Japanese language) to writing
English-language haikus. The English language is filled with too many
odds and ends which define the language. English without little
things like articles, prepositions, conjunctions (things which the
haiku's five-seven-five form tend to discourage because these words
take up valuable syllables) tends to begin sounding like Newspeak.
I don't happen to "hate" what you've termed "imagist poetry" (a vivid
term, by the way). I just get uneasy when, for example, a poem is
forced by its form to string three or even five nouns in a row. I'm
not referring to any specific postings here, but thinking about some
high-school haikus I've come across in my literary education; most of
them look like they could use an article or two, plus some
conjunctions and a little more syntactic work.
My point is basically not that writing haikus in English is wrong; I'm
saying it's difficult, and that perhaps it may be necessary to discard
some of the original ideas (like free-flowing, almost
stream-of-conscious content and diction) definitive of Japanese haiku
.
: anniethel (anniethel) Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:36:12 CDT (9 lines)
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Derek, I've been interested in haiku for a very long time, and found
a book a few years ago that pleased me. You might like it, if you
haven't already read it.
One Hundred Frogs: from Renga to Haiku to English
by Hiroaki Sato. pub. Wetherill, NY & Tokyo, 1983.
I followed the discussion above with great interest.
Dean Gardner (deanc) Sun, 04 Oct 1998 17:41:48 CDT (5 lines)
Question: when you write haiku, how do you go about achieving the
desired effect? Is there a type of effect? a sensation? I think of
what was called a "leap" in a poem back when Bly was a gun. I see
that in haiku. Want to use haiku in my teaching. Thought something
descriptive appropriate.
Literature.70.403: thoughtpond (thoughtpond) Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:40:31 CDT (8 lines)
Dean, I understand that optimally it suggests a season and captures a
moment.
does the full moon light
help the sun turn leaves auburn
yes, tonight it must
Literature.70.405: Victoria Oak (lane52) Mon, 05 Oct 1998 01:00:05 CDT (9 lines)
Dean - yes, a leap is desired - a quick shift from one strong image
prevalent in the first two lines, to a brand new, perhaps surprising
yet related/reinforcing image, in the third line. a twist of
perspective to see the thing more clearly? and yes - capturing a
moment is exactly it!
mountains wear a shroud
of early snow, tower tall
solid between us
Literature.70.406: Dean Gardner (deanc) Mon, 05 Oct 1998 05:40:36 CDT (3 lines)
3 types of logic
inductive, deductive, Toulin
haiku---which type are you?
Literature.70.407: Tom Coleman (tomcoleman) Mon, 05 Oct 1998 08:22:23 CDT (3 lines)
Inductive thought
cannot be reduced to
thin silken thread
