Babble v1 86

babble-digest Friday, December 19 1997 Volume 01 : Number 086

In this issue:
Rollovers. Aiieee!
Re: scroll=no
Re: HTML 4.0
Brightness/Contrast
Brightness/contrast
Seasons Greetings
Netscape homepage
ADMIN NOTE (was RE: Seasons Greetings)
Re: Searching engines
Re: Searching engines
Re: ADMIN NOTE (was RE: Seasons Greetings)
depth of the site
Re: depth of the site
RE: depth of the site
Re: DeBabelizer + mac resource forks
Re: shocked sites
Oops - FRAMESET - fixed width Problems.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:09:17 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Rollovers. Aiieee!

At 02:15 PM 12/18/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>here's an experimental site I'm working on that uses rollovers quite a
>>bit:

Someone in our office is now convulsing every time one of these babble
message appears with "rollovers" in the subject line. Baaaaaad, baaaad.
Foaming at the mouth, et. al.

Best to stop talking about rollovers now, yes?

Ryan Ferguson
signacct@signweb.com

Visit SignWeb, your one-stop resource for the signage industry!
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// Searchable Sign Database // Message Boards //
// Industry Resources // OEMs //
// Suppliers // Vendors //
// Hot Products // Net News //
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- --> Other great ST On-Line publications:
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:35:43 PST
From: "Steve Crowl" <artworks24@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: scroll=no

Seasons Greetings,

<snip>
In creating a pop-up window in Javascript with the scrolling attribute
set to no, I'm finding that it only takes hold in Nav4. Nav3 and IE4
still scroll. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
</snip>

This script is in use on my page, and it will hide the scroll bars in
IE4, and NN3 on a PC, win95. I maxed out my font size in the browser and
tested it.

HTH (hope this helps)

browserName = navigator.appName;
function dash2(){
if (browserName == "Netscape")
{

msgWindow=window.open("8x6.htm","displayWindow","toolbar=no,directories=no,status=yes,scrollbars=no,menubar=no,location=no,width=400,height=425");
}
else
{

msgWindow=window.open("8x6ie.htm","displayWindow","toolbar=no,directories=no,status=yes,scrollbars=no,menubar=no,location=no,width=400,height=425");
}
}

Steve Crowl,
Digital Artworks,
<http://www.artworks.net>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:04:17 +0100
From: Tomas Caspers <t.caspers@hermes.de>
Subject: Re: HTML 4.0

Erik Kittlaus wrote:
>Does anyone know when HTML 4.0 is going to be implemented?

As of today it now is a reccomended standard.
Read http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,17487,00.html
Implemented? Completely? Let's hope for the 5.0 versions.

Tomas

- -- Tomas Caspers - tomas@artware.de
- -- Help squash the bugs in Netscape:
- -- http://www.artware.de/nc4petition/

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:16:32 -0600
From: "Richard Tallent" <richard@icnewmedia.com>
Subject: Brightness/Contrast

Have there been any studies of how "the masses" who
don't have any experience with gamma correction,
white/black balancing, or color temperature set their
monitor brightness and contrast settings?

I've seen much discussion about the differences in PC
and Mac gammas, but nothing on the basic settings
which the user has control over.

My *general* observation is that PC users set their
monitors at *very* high contrast (80% or max) and
almost as much on their relative brightness knobs.

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for the
ambient lighting which works best for design? I
noticed today that I have more flourescent wattage
shining on me at work than probably 90% of my
viewership.

- --
Richard Tallent
Internet Cyber-Creations, Inc.
http://www.icnewmedia.com/

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:08:35 -0600
From: chris@tenagra.com (CHris MacGregor)
Subject: Seasons Greetings

Howdy all,

As December is usually one of our slower months, the company I work for
likes to do a holiday related site for our friends and clients. I thought
that the readers of the Babble list (seeing as we are all working in some
sort of web related company) would enjoy our Shockwave game (you'll need
the latest Shockwave for Director Plug-in) that lets you plot the course of
your web developement firm from start-up to IPO. It is fun, and a good way
to spend the dull hours while waiting for your Christmas break to start.

Give it a try at: http://seasonsgreetings.tenagra.com/

CHris

PS, Tenagra is available to design shockwave games like this, if you are
interested let me know.

CHris MacGregor
- -------------------
Internet Type Foundry Index <http://www.typeindex.com>
UNION Type Supply <http://www.typeindex.com/UNION/>
chris@tenagra.com Tenagra Corp.
Web Content Designer <http://www.tenagra.com>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:25:39 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Netscape homepage

Hi all,
I just visited the Netscape home page using NN4 for the first time (was
using mostly IE)...what the hell have they got going there???
Pull down menus covering half the page...pop-out windows covering
things...not real sure about this here...seems a case of showing off
features just because they can, even if the interface..well..sucks.
I assume this is what they call layers? I'm also assuming it is
completely incompatible with IE? IE has its own totally incompatible
implementation of something almost similar?
A lot of it seems like it would be more appropriate to intranet
development and a more 'application like' front end. Intranets have
interested me for a long time, but to actually do them right would
require a lot of work, more along the lines of application development
than straight 'page design'...I was doing one for IBM for a while, which
is what got me into the whole thing originally. (Even before companies
started trumpeting about intranets. Even before IBM started trumpeting
about intranets. I think I did it about 6 months too early and as the
buzzwords hadn't begun flying yet management wasn't too interested.)

Anyway, has anyone got any useful/aesthetic implementations of the stuff
degrading Netscape's page?

Caleb Fuller
Analog Creations
email@calebfuller.com
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:27:03 -0800
From: Christopher <chris@christopher.org>
Subject: ADMIN NOTE (was RE: Seasons Greetings)

On Thursday, December 18, 1997 3:09 PM, CHris MacGregor
[SMTP:chris@tenagra.com] wrote:
> PS, Tenagra is available to design shockwave games like this, if you are
> interested let me know.

Please refrain from advertising on this list. The only list we offer that
one may advertise on is the the H5 Newsletter. The Babble list is
no-advertisement zone.

Thanks,
Christopher Schmitt
http://www.highfive.com/
415.278.9900 ext. 38
mailto:chris@christopher.org
"Oh, waiter. This conversation isn't very good."

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:33:18 -0000
From: "Carla " <cmarina@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Searching engines

I'm having the same problem registering my site with Yahoo...anyone know
why?

- ----------
From: Lars A. Brekken <pdesign@online.no>
To: babble@highfive.com
Subject: Searching engines
Date: Thursday, December 18, 1997 2:47 PM

Hello everybody!

I've experienced some trouble with registering some sites at various search
engines. I register the site, with correct keywords, URL and description,
but a few weeks later, and can't find my site when searching for it. I read
in a mail here in babble that Yahoo is understaffed, but when it comes to
all the automatic search engines, why don't they register my URLs
correctly?

I'd appreciate some comments on this, and what I eventually can do to
better the situation. Please note that this happens also when using
META-tags. I think that I'm far from alone with this problem, and I hope
some of you have found a way to solve this...

All answers are appreciated, please reply to my private e-mail adress if
you answer doesn't concern the list.

Thanks in advance,
Lars A. Brekken [larsarne@online.no]

- -------------------------------------
"Never tell people how to do things.
Tell them what to do and they will
surprise you with their ingenuity."
-- General George S. Patton --
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:07:42 -0600
From: chris@tenagra.com (CHris MacGregor)
Subject: Re: ADMIN NOTE (was RE: Seasons Greetings)

At 5:27 PM 12/18/97, Christopher wrote:
>On Thursday, December 18, 1997 3:09 PM, CHris MacGregor
>[SMTP:chris@tenagra.com] wrote:
>> PS, Tenagra is available to design shockwave games like this, if you are
>> interested let me know.
>
>Please refrain from advertising on this list. The only list we offer that
>one may advertise on is the the H5 Newsletter. The Babble list is
>no-advertisement zone.

I would not consider the above message an advertisement any more than I
would the some of sig files that are posted to this list every week that
promote the senders company. Or, would it be OK if I included the message
in a .sig file?

CHris

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:05:14 +0100
From: camwal@cybercable.tm.fr (Pascale Camus-Walter)
Subject: depth of the site

My question is, would it be a good thing to put an info concerning the size
of the site that people will visit?

Example:

>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:32:53 -0500
>From: tisiphone <tisifone@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: RE: Using rollovers...why?
>
>At 11:17 AM 12/16/97 -0500, Martha Wilkes wrote:

>Amazingly true-the other day I watched a new internet user access the first
>page of a 200+ page site. He looked at the front page and said, "Wow,
>that's cool" and stopped there. I asked him why he didn't click on any of
>the icons or underlined blue links to see the rest of the site, and he said
>that he did not know what I meant. Then he said, "is that what they mean by
>a link?"

Sometimes, you can also have the impression that there are more section
than they are in reality:

>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:43:08 -0500
>From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
>Subject: H5 REVIEW: No gramar this time, I promise.

>I have been confused by a site presenting a list of section
>links next to a list of descriptions that looks like another list of
>sections.
> "OK, ten different sections. CLICK.
>CLICK. CLICK. Hmmm... Oh, only five sections. I get it."

I see so many sites with counters where you can see the number of visitors,
but no site with a counter telling: here you can find 200 pages. Certainly,
the designer of the site knows that there are 200 pages, but how can people
know that and is it important?

+---------------------------------+----------------------------------+
Nota Bene: + THE ORIGINAL GOAL WAS
J'ai change d'e@mail!!! + WORKING TOGETHER
camwal@cybercable.tm.fr + Tim BERNERS-LEE
+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+
Dessins: http://www.cybercable.fr/~camwal/
Des seins: http://web.superb.net/apastras
+---------------------------------+----------------------------------+

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:29:52 +0800
From: "Tenacious Terry" <tenacious-t@thecybercircus.com>
Subject: Re: depth of the site

Pascale Camus-Walter wrote:

> My question is, would it be a good thing to put an info concerning the size
> of the site that people will visit?

<snip>

> I see so many sites with counters where you can see the number of visitors,
> but no site with a counter telling: here you can find 200 pages. Certainly,
> the designer of the site knows that there are 200 pages, but how can people
> know that and is it important?

Personally, I think it's far more important to know at a glance what
the site's contents offer, rather than the number of pages. If I'm
looking for specific information on a topic, then I want to be able
to get there quickly and easily. I wouldn't really care if the site
held 200 pages, if only one page dealt with my topic of interest. On
the other hand, if there were other pages on the site that covered
the same, or a similar, topic, then I'd expect each of the pages to
provide links to the others.

Use of a site map could make the 'big picture' more readily apparent,
if you really wanted your visitors to see how extensive the site is.
But number of pages? Nahhh. I don't need to know.

Terry K.

___________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s___________________
S T E P R I G H T U P ! T H E S H O W H A S B E G U N !
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:55:43 -0800
From: Marc Northover <marc@eni.net>
Subject: RE: depth of the site

<snip>

Use of a site map could make the 'big picture' more readily apparent,
if you really wanted your visitors to see how extensive the site is.
But number of pages? Nahhh. I don't need to know.

<start>
that is another subject that I would like to discuss. The use of a site map as a section in a web
page. It seems that if you need a site map to get people where they need to go, there is some sort
of design flaw. However on the other hand, you might have a good design and allow quicker access to
some information. What does everyone or anyone else think?

personally I am anti-site map, but i am open to suggestions and valid arguments for and against

marc

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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:16:21 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Re: DeBabelizer + mac resource forks

Another hiccup it seems.

I read a few emails regarding problems with NS implementation of the
FRAMESET tag, particularly with regard to fixed width issues. However, the
answers (unless I missed something) addressed a different question.

I know that there is a problem with FRAMEs when the window is resized. I am
also comfortable with controlling the browser offsets for NS and MSIE
(LEFTMARGIN=0 TOPMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0).

My problem is that I can't even get the FRAMESET to work in the first
place. MSIE did as I had expected immediately. NS does not. This is
slightly frustrating since I was only doing this version with multiple
frames to accomplish something I had done very easily for MSIE using
IFRAMEs - (http://www.heaven.com.my/neurotic ).

After spending four hours on this one last night - I have concluded that it
is bug, and cannot be done. However I would still be very happy to be
proved wrong.

If any gurus out there could point their browsers to:

http://www.heaven.com.my/neurotic/netscape/setup.html

And just tell me if I'm approaching this wrong.

Thanks in advance - oh, and Merry Christmas to you all.

Gary.

- -----------------------------------------------------
http://www.tanjungrhu.com.my - "Heaven on Earth"
- -----------------------------------------------------
Enterprise Solutions
WebMaster & Information Architect :)
- -----------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:47:57 -0500
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: shocked sites

>I would like to know how many people from this list vote in behalf of
>the creation of "shocked sites".

depends on audience. i was part of the team that did the batman & robin
website. entire site was done in flash (which was in beta while we were
constructing the site, and was released the day the site went live.
coincidence?)

yes, that made it useless for some people.
but appropriate for the kind of audience the site was designed to please.

there was no way in html to create the kind of interactive, animated
experience we desired. (for instance, there were five subsites, one for
each character in the movie, and you entered each subsite by DRIVING in the
character's vehicle.)

a notice on the front of the site explained the need for the plug-in, and
linked to it. a small download, as these things go.
flash could be installed without restarting the browser, which took some of
the sting out of it, even for relatively inexperienced users.

there was a "non-flash" site but it was an afterthought ... some
downloadable jpegs, quicktimes, etc. for those unwilling or unable to get
flash.

(jen braun, the lead designer, was creating a site in beta software no one
had ever used before, hoping it was bug-free, and racing against the beta's
expiration date. she was amazing.)

i've never made sites this way before or since, but it felt right at the
time, for that audience.

there are no rules, only decisions.

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

"A genius with too much time on his hands." -- Magellan, 4 Stars

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:06:12 +0800
From: Gary Sweeting <gary@neuronet.com.my>
Subject: Oops - FRAMESET - fixed width Problems.

Oops, sorry I sent this earlier under some silly title (mis-use of Return
to: function).

Another hiccup it seems.

After spending four hours on this one last night - I have concluded that it
is bug, and cannot be done. However I would still be very happy to be
proved wrong.

If any gurus out there could point their browsers to:

http://www.heaven.com.my/neurotic/netscape/setup.html

And just tell me if I'm approaching this wrong.

Thanks in advance - oh, and Merry Christmas to you all.

Gary.

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #86
***************************

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