Babble v1 196

babble-digest Wednesday, February 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 196

In this issue:
Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...
Re: babble-digest V1 #193
Re: I'd like to educate John Shelley
RE: Photoshop alternatives...
Re: unbelievable URL mis/redirection...
Re: unbelievable URL mis/redirection...
racist commentary...
Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...
Re: Photoshop alternatives...
multiple frame swaps
RE: Photoshop alternatives...
Optimizing Sites
URL to check out
Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...
John Shelley re:who would you like to kill
Re: multiple frame swaps
Bring on the flame
Re: design houses, software alternatives
Re: Bring on the flame
Site critique
Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...
Helvetica wanted

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:28:49 +0000
From: "Christian Kirschniak" <ck@dsein.com>
Subject: Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...

It´s not the tool, it´s the brain behind it!

Christian Kirschniak
"Still smoking cigars and drinking wine..."
___________________________________________________
E-Mail: <ck@dsein.com> WWW: <http://www.dsein.com>
Private: <carpenoctem@geocities.com> WWW:
<http://www.dsein.com/carpenoctem>
Phone: +49 7071 440946 Cellular: +49 172 7613743
Snail: Albblickstrasse 5 72411 Bodelshausen Germany

>You wrote:
>
>"There is no alternative. Photoshop is penultimate. If you can't
>afford
>it, save money until you can buy it. If you're bad with money, beg. If
>you can't stand begging, have all of your relatives chip in and buy it
>for you as an (Xmas) gift. If you can't stand asking for an early Xmas
>gift, go to a university's graphics art lab and start using it there.
>If you can't stand driving to a university to use a copy of Photoshop,
>crumble and just _find a way to buy it._ There is no choice. There is
>no alternative. _Get it._"
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:23:35 +0100
From: Pascale Camus-Walter <camwal@cybercable.tm.fr>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #193

>
>Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:51:29 +0200
>From: Hanan Cohen <hananc@bashan.co.il>
>Subject: who would you like to kill
>
>Please use your creativity for something else, not for killing people.

I agree with you. Killerwebsites should not be websites to kill.
When reading Roger Blacks "websites that work", I was quite skocked when I
was reading , pages 105-106, a quiet explanation about how to make the best
layout for the Peruvian hostage situation and a sententious comment under
a close view of a suffering victim:
"Work in progress: This Peruvian hostage crisis page is designed with a
number of hot links leading to small, independent (yet related) stories."

Against, like for the signature problem, where design meets moral...

Pascale Camus-Walter / Strasbourg camwal@cybercable.tm.fr
Il est plus facile de rayer l'obscurite que la lumiere. R. Juarroz
+---------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
artKfee: http://www.cybercable.tm.fr/~camwal/
The Waltercolour studio: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/5806/
apastras: http://web.superb.net/apastras
+------------------------------------+----------------------------------+

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:19:31 -0500
From: Carole Guevin <cguevin@netdiver.com>
Subject: Re: I'd like to educate John Shelley

Hello Peter et all,

Supremacy online is to content which comes from between the ears and a
little below - the heart. Please let's ignore John's post. I agree
completely for the necessity of setting the record straight - which you
have done in an excellent manner Peter - if any other members would like
to react - write directly to John and let's get going...

Best to all - this is such a GREAT list.

Carole Guevin
editor/researcher
http:www.netdiver.com
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:43:02 -0600
From: "Chris Kaminski" <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
Subject: RE: Photoshop alternatives...

Just a couple of notes on the raster image tool debate: Cyberian Outpost
(http://www.cyberianoutpost.com; no, I don't work for them or have any
relationship to them other than being a satisfied customer) has the
academic version of Photoshop for Mac or Win (identical to the commercial
versian, near as I can tell) for $220. Not cheap, but probably within
reach of most students if they save up.
Alternatively, Photoshop comes bundled with many mid- to high-end
scanners and some printers. If you want
Better yet, The academic version of FreeHand Graphic Studio is $180. That
gives you a great vector illustration program (FreeHand 7) that can read
and write Illustrator files (special bonus: but now & you'll be able to
upgrade to FH 8 for free), a competent raster image editor (XRes) that can
read and save Photoshop 3 and, I believe, 4 files (I've done it on Win &
it worked flawlessly), the only widely available font creation software
(Fontographer) that I know of, and a serviceable 3-D
modeling/rendering/animation package (Extreme 3D).
I have to agree with Tari that while Photoshop is the first choice, there
is much outstanding work being done with 'pro-sumer' packages like Paint
Shop Pro & Corel Photopaint for Win.
In addition, other raster editors excel in other areas. Both XRes and,
especially, LivePicture blow Photoshop out of the water when it comes to
editing extremely large images (not a problem for new medial applications,
but common for print), and for image creation and natural -media effects,
MetaTools Painter 5 is the king ($260 Win, $280 Mac at CO; dunno why the
price is different), and I know from personal experience that it works
very nicely as a compliment to Photoshop, and could be used as a
substitute in a pinch.
Also, am I dreaming, or was PSP formerly available for Mac? I've got a CD
that came with *Inside Photoshop 3* by Gary Bouton, and it includes a copy
of a shareware image editor for the Mac that I could've sworn was PSP from
Jasc.

Chris Kaminski
Intranet Designer
Genoa Business Forms, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:06:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: unbelievable URL mis/redirection...

it looks to me that there is a lil enterprising ambition going on, and a
isp was trying to buy up the domain... and resell it.. but then again, it
may just be an isp with an attitude :D

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Tari Akpodiete wrote:

> I read a little article, forwarded to me by my boss, about how the movie
> "The Replacement Killers" site was supposed to be the first site. The
> title was "DHTML Site Plugs Replacement Killers".
>
> The Replacement Killers is said to be the first film Web site developed
> using Dynamic HTML, and can be cruised with both Internet Explorer 4.0
> and Netscape 4.0. The technology reportedly allows for animation and
> sound with a smaller download than other methods of animation currently
> being used on the Internet.
>
> Special effects, including roll-overs, wipes, timeline based animation,
> and showing and hiding layers, rely on the combination of layers and
> JavaScript. The site also features a Shockwave Flash soundtrack, which
> enables overlapping sound play synchronized to the animation.
>
> Naturally, I launched NN4 and typed in 'replacementkillers'. You would
> not believe where I ended up. I was completely floored. I have to wonder
> if Sony knows. And what could be done about this sort of thing, from a
> legal standpoint...
>
> Try clicking on this link and see for yourselves (and check out what
> they've called the images)...
>
> http://www.replacementkillers.com/
>
> By the way, Sony link for the movie is
>
> http://www.spe.sony.com/movies/replacementkillers/
>
> --
>
> ...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
> ...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
>
> ...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
> ...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:43:44 -0800
From: Hanna Sherman International <hanna@hanna-sherman.com>
Subject: Re: unbelievable URL mis/redirection...

This is not the first time I have seen this. A service provider I was
looking at contracting with wanted me to look at Sony Playstation's site. I
typed in www.sonyplaystation.com on a guess. It is a New Jersey company
that tells you that you have gone to the wrong site and then gives you
advertisements from other sites. It also has www.appel.com registered for
those people who mistype apple. My friend at Apple accidently found that
one.

- -Jason Grigsby

>At 02:36 AM 2/11/98 -0500, Tari Akpodiete wrote:
>[snip]
>>I have to wonder
>>if Sony knows. And what could be done about this sort of thing, from a
>>legal standpoint...
>[snip]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:00:55 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: racist commentary...

someone recently appalling racist commentary.

someone else admonished them but said they were interested to hear what
they had to say about web development stuff.

i, for one, am not interested in a single thing else they have to say.
as far as i am concerned, they've poisoned the well, and should be
banished from babbleland, ! so to speak...

- --

...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........

...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:47:33 -0800
From: Luis Cota <softech@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...

Just out of curiosity, doesn't penultimate means "next to the best"?

luis cota
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:53:03 -0800
From: "Lawrence Lee" <tomalak@dsoe.com>
Subject: Re: Photoshop alternatives...

http://www.jasc.com/

I believe PSP is only available on Windows (3.1,NT,95 etc)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Kaminski <ckaminski@genoabusforms.com>
To: 'babble@highfive.com' <babble@highfive.com>
Date: February 11, 1998 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: Photoshop alternatives...

[...]
> Also, am I dreaming, or was PSP formerly available for Mac? I've got a CD
>that came with *Inside Photoshop 3* by Gary Bouton, and it includes a copy
>of a shareware image editor for the Mac that I could've sworn was PSP from
>Jasc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:25:24 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: multiple frame swaps

This one goes out to the scripters (java that is). At

http://www.abmworldlink.com/redo/index.html

you can see the wrapparound rollovers indicating the color scheme of the
various links. No problems there. But the links (buttons) don't
correctly swap out the 4 frames the way I'd like them to. It should be
obvious what I'm trying to achieve. The problem as I see it lies in the
object paths through the various frames and framesets. Don't quite have
that part figured out. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Erik
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:19:02 -0800
From: Christopher <chris@christopher.org>
Subject: RE: Photoshop alternatives...

For the web or any digital imaging, Photoshop is the tool you will need to
know.
I understand people's budgets (like mine) don't allow for them to
instantly drop a couple hundred bucks on a program, but Photoshop is
paramount to work in this field, IMO. My advice is to find a way to get
Photoshop legally while working try-out versions of Photoshop or paint Shop
Pro.

If you're a student, get the academic version. Before I graduated from
college, I bought a ton of software at academic prices (I preferred buying
through http://www.micromaster.com/). If I hadn't I would have paid the
same about of money and only have gotten one or two software packages at
full retail price.

Christopher Schmitt
new media designer
http://www.christopher.org/hireme

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:32:08 EST
From: TheGilster@aol.com
Subject: Optimizing Sites

Dear List,
I am in need of two crossbrowser solutions. One, I would appreciate it
if anyone could recommend me a url or two on optimizing sites for browsers and
also if there is a crossbrowser javascript rollover.

Thanks in advance,
Gil
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:46:23 -0600
From: Neal Thomas <nthomas@iisd.ca>
Subject: URL to check out

This is one of the most elegant things I've seen on the web in the last
6 months to be sure:

http://www.plumbdesign.com/thesaurus/

Neal Thomas
Web Designer
http://iisd.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:43:57 -0800
From: Qathi Gallaher <qathi@syncretic.com>
Subject: Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...

At 9:47 AM -0800 2/11/98, Luis Cota wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, doesn't penultimate means "next to the best"?

pen-ul-ti-mate
Pronunciation: pi-'n&l-t&-m&t
Function: adjective
Date: 1677
1 : next to the last <the penultimate chapter of a book>
2 : of or relating to a penult <a penultimate accent>
- - pen-ul-ti-mate-ly adverb

Taken from http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm I love this site!

Qathi Gallaher <qathi@syncretic.com>
Syncretic Media

2001 Sixth Ave, Suite 400
Seattle, WA 98121
(206) 448-9779
FAX:(206) 443-0718

http://www.syncretic.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:31:16 -0500
From: Michael Piastro <mpp6@cornell.edu>
Subject: John Shelley re:who would you like to kill

I respect Mr.Cohens' opinion on violence in video games. I also respect
the opinions of those who say that violence in any media (be it video
games, television, etc.) is a form of personal expression and therefore
legitimate on some level. We all reserve the option of limiting the
exposure we or our children have to these types of media. Mr. Cohen seemed
to be expressing an opinion relevant to the list; specificly that
ultra-realistic human on human violence is an unnacceptable or undesirable
form of expression. And then we have Mr. Flame, which reads, in part,

>if you didn't have a lowlife and coward like
>'benny nit-wit-yahoo' for a whatever he is, your gov't would
>have wasted those stinking towel-headed arab filth
>a long time ago and *owned* the place.

So which of these thoughts exactly is relevant to the group? Perhaps your
belief that all Arabs wear towels on their heads and smell is somehow
relevant to their creative output? I (being an American "arab") can assure
you that I have never worn a towel on my head (not being Islamic, you see).
Should I be "wasted", or is that just Arabs in the Middle East? Or just
Islamic Arabs in the Middle East? Or just Islamic Arabs who are militant
who live in the Middle East? Come on.
Grow up or get out.
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:16:10 +1000
From: "Craig Castledine" <ccastledine@dynamics.net>
Subject: Re: multiple frame swaps

Unbelievable !!

Eric Kittlaus wrote:
>This one goes out to the scripters (java that is). At
>
>http://www.abmworldlink.com/redo/index.html
>
>you can see the wrapparound rollovers indicating the color scheme of the
>various links. No problems there. But the links (buttons) don't
>correctly swap out the 4 frames the way I'd like them to. It should be
>obvious what I'm trying to achieve. The problem as I see it lies in the
>object paths through the various frames and framesets. Don't quite have
>that part figured out. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Why don't you ask Lance Arthur, Eric, its his design. Gee....you ever been
to Glassdog? You can't just flip it and say its yours!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:36:41 -0500
From: Paul Angell <paul@angellworks.com>
Subject: Bring on the flame

Just launched http://www.pollvault.com and could use some critical advise.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:46:11 +1030
From: rwilliams <rwilliams@webmedia.com.au>
Subject: Re: design houses, software alternatives

Hi all,

> Not everyone works for some big Web design house so maybe disks with
> Illustrator and Photoshop aren't going to be immediately slappped on
> their desks by big time paying clients. At least not yet. But they can
> dream of it, big headache that it actually is, sometimes, if only they
> knew...
> In fact, the majority of Web development is not done by these big mega
> agencies. Often they were late to the plate anyway. They did other
> things, like 4-colour magazines and annual reports and all of a sudden
> noticed that small companies and small businesses were doing Web design.

I do have to agree with this BUT LOOK OUT, one day soon they will jump
into the game with both feet & BIG budgets. I'm sure in doing so they
will employ alot of the little guys who have so much experience in this
feild.

I myself always shudder when I get a job from a design house as most
have never had any experience in web design and even meeting with them
before the job is done, their design is...well I'm sure we all enjoy the
challenge.

> Anyway, I digress... A person who is starting out with their own little
> Web design business could also get to work with less start up costs and
> by saving money from small jobs, could work their way up to stuff like
> Photoshop for the 'big' jobs.
>
Just for the record, I started out 3yrs ago after reading a review of
painter 2.0. 2mths later I purchesed Painter 3 with no computer to run
it on. I used a house-mates machine for nearly a year. Then I found an
outdated version of freehand 4 on the shelf of a software supplier - it
was cheap but didn't run on Win95 so I got the upgarde to FH5(it was
much cheaper this way). I taught myself how to use these, picking up a
little flyer design work along the way, then a bit of web icon
design(without photoshop!). Last year I enroled in a well respected
Advanced Diploma of Graphic Design and now I'm here and loving it. In
fact untill this job I had not even put together a single page of HTML.

So to all the little guys keep at it, you will get the big break one
day.
I still belive in mainstream products, a year ago I purchased XRes (at
the intro price of $A200) and to this day I've only done about 5hrs work
with it! I'd much rather get the upgrade of painter!
- --
Richard Williams
Graphic Designer/Web Developer
WebMedia Australia Pty Ltd http://www.webmedia.com.au/webmedia
Ph. +61 08 8346 3888 Fax. +61 08 8346 3400
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:07:33 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: Bring on the flame

Hi Babblers...

Just wondering if I could get some advice form the best...
this site is my new attempt to apply what I've learned by reading you guys
and of course by watching some of the best sites .... I'm displaying my
forte {art} and my newly-acquired web publishing skills. Please don't pay
attention to the text.. just an overall critique..

thanks in advance..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:43:57 -0800
From: Jorge Hurtado <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Site critique

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------2D3FD567491732216913604B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ooops!!! my apologies babblers...:D I guess it would be helpful if I
include the URL..
here's the site that Ii worked on:

http://exo.com/~hurtado/1.html

> Hi Babblers...
>
> Just wondering if I could get some advice form the best...
> this site is my new attempt to apply what I've learned by reading you
> guys
> and of course by watching some of the best sites .... I'm displaying
> my
> forte {art} and my newly-acquired web publishing skills. Please don't
> pay
> attention to the text.. just an overall critique..
>
> thanks in advance..

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:57:00 -0800
From: "Jim Bass" <jim@bassworks.com>
Subject: Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...

No, it means next to last, with last meaning final. So counting to ten, nine
would be the penultimate number spoken. The use of ultimate to mean "best"
probably derives from hyperbole that implies something is so great it cannot
be improved on, and is thus the final version.

Word Doctor

- -----Original Message-----
From: Luis Cota <softech@inreach.com>
To: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Cc: babble@highfive.com <babble@highfive.com>; Ryan Ferguson
<signacct@signweb.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: your comments on Photoshop alternatives...

>Just out of curiosity, doesn't penultimate means "next to the best"?
>
>luis cota

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:12:36 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Helvetica wanted

Matjaz Vrecar was after some different weights of Helvetica....

The best people to contact for this would be Adobe, who distribute the
Helvetica typeface, I think licensed from Agfa or Monotype? I don't have a
Slovenian number for them, but I purchase my fonts from a company called
FontShop, who's head office is in Germany, so maybe you could contact them
(www.fontshop.com). They distribute fonts from just about everyone, and I see
many weights of Helvetica in one of their sample books....
Unfortunately we can't really send you copies of these fonts - fonts are
copyright pieces of software and it is just as much an offense to pirate them
as other software. To all other budding designers on this list, please be
aware of this. Get sample books of good fonts from type foundries and purchase
licences for the fonts you require. Study some books on typography and get to
learn your fonts and their characteristics. I recommend 'The Elements of
Typographic Style' by Robert Bringhurst for any designer interested in
typography ... (which should be everyone).

Caleb Fuller
analog creations | the web is our voice
email@calebfuller.com
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End of babble-digest V1 #196
****************************

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