Babble v1 180

babble-digest Tuesday, February 3 1998 Volume 01 : Number 180

In this issue:
Re: CSS Paragraphs
Honda woman (?) is just as confused
Flash 2 book (not the manual)
Link to different stylesheets
Re: Trademarking
Re: Trademarking
CSS degradation was IE4 mac CSS problems
Re: GRAPHICS: good 3D apps for Mac?
Animated gif problem: PC MSIE 4.0
RE: Site content and design issues
not good enough
Job - Web page designer/HTML Technician (Portland, ME)
valentine
re: Site content and design issues
Re: not good enough
Re: GRAPHICS: good 3D apps for Mac?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 09:02:21 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: CSS Paragraphs

Todd Fahrner wrote ...

>snip--

>About the other current CSS threads: yes, the implementations suck. Yes,
>this is horribly dismaying. No, I don't know what to do except complain,
>and I've been doing lots and lots of that for more than a year now.
>Actually I've volunteered recently to help a group of engineers fix CSS in
>the upcoming public release of the Netscape source. So, take an engineer
>to lunch and tell her what margins are!

Todd, first of all, thank for you comments on my particular problem in
hand. I will be sticking to a hybrid CSS/HTML hack for the minute -
because it works now! If I have to fix it again at some later date,
that's cool.

The style that I want has NO indent on the first paragraph and 3 em
indents on all others and no extra paragraph space. This seems a fairly
basic typographic style that I, and many others, have used for many
years. If we had a catalogue of typographic styles, surely this would be
in the top ten. But the CSS provisions still seem to be aimed at typists
and not typographers.

But you bring up another interesting point. With Netscape making their
code freely available and the great rolling snowball of OpenScape gaining
momentum daily, are not standards going to become even more diverse? You
can't possibly have even more engineers working on the problems in even
more locations without *diffusing* cooperation.

The one good thing that you can say about a monopoly, is that it
guarantees consistency - even though it might be consistenly bad :?)

Joe Gillespie

W e b P a g e D e s i g n f o r D e s i g n e r s
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the new site at http://www.wpdfd.com/ email: joe@wpdfd.com
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:43:15 +1300
From: "Ruth Lemon " <dashzero@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Honda woman (?) is just as confused

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01BD30FD.7F5555C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have to say that from the moment I entered the site, I looked here and =
there but clear navigation wasn't anywhere (excuse the grammar English =
majors). While I may not be the King of the Net (hail Porter, Chris and =
Jeffrey ;) and Queen Tari), I do know when a site has me completely =
lost. The index page gave no indication about where it was taking me and =
I found that the constant flickering of those cleverly timed gifs got in =
the way of navigation instead of aiding it (it gave me the impression of =
being on another splash page).

I agree with Porter completely about the red dots...why a dot? Some =
analogy to wheels or pregnant women or the future of driving? I came to =
the conclusion that the matching red dots down the left side were =
designed/added to add to the symmetry that all women need and love in =
their lives. Don't get me wrong. The site wasn't a garbageheap. I =
enjoyed changing gear and test-driving my new Honda ;-> I just found it =
a lot easier to stay on one page than try and change gear in the dark =
and maybe end up on a page that wasn't as much fun. To me, designing a =
page starts with content/an idea, follows on with the structure of how =
to get from one idea to another in the site (this is my paper-planning =
before I even sit down in front of the computer) and ends with the =
development and prettying of a site.

Maybe it's just me. Goodnight all :)

Te Whitikitia Ipurangi
CyberSoul
Living, learning and working on the Internet :)
=20

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:43:05
From: Benjamin Sabini <archer@swlink.net>
Subject: Flash 2 book (not the manual)

Hi All,

I just got Flash 2 and eager to learn it right away.
During my time trying to figure it out, I found out that the supplied
manual and the lessons inlcuded in the package didn't teach me very clearly.

I search in Amazon.com that there is another book that teaches Flash 2. The
book title is "The Flash2 Web Animation Book".
To all who have purchased the book, what do you think about it?
Is it worth it to spend $27.99 for this book?
Does the book clearly explain in detail how to do what? Examples?

Thanks in advanced.
- ----
Benjamin Sabini
archer@swlink.net
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 12:19:56 +0100
From: "Mona Malmström" <mona@medicallink.se>
Subject: Link to different stylesheets

Hi!

Finally this question comes up all by itself, I´ve been thinking about
it for quite a while but didn´t take the time to find any answers,

Is there a way to link to different stylesheets depending on what
platform is being used by the visitor. Like a java-script or something
that does it all by itself? For example I don´t like when the fonts
that are 10 points on my Mac turns out to be 18 or something on PC.
And then this <P>-problem...

Greatful for any answers,

Mona

- --
Mona Malmström
mailto:mona@medicallink.se
phone:+46 (0)8 632 36 67, +46 (0)70 310 80 86

http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-71271/blommor/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 07:21:29 -0500
From: Max Gasner <mgasner@ramblings.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

Porter Glendinning wrote:

> At 09:08 PM 2/2/98 -0600, Jonathan Magee wrote:
> >>In the end, you may have bigger problems
> >>regarding the fact that you are only 14 and
> >>owning a business.
> >
> >mm...i generally have found few problems with any such
> >circumstance.
>
> I can think of one large one right off the top of my head: A 14-year
> old
> cannot sign a legally binding contract. This is going to be a big one
> to
> overcome as far as the business aspect is concerned.

This is technically true. A simple solution is to form a partnership
with a guardian, something I am currently in the process of doing.
Having once before been ripped off for $100 worth of design work (a lot
of money at this age for all you jaded $5000 designers out there!), I
have become wary enough that I will use legally binding contracts now
and a formal partnership.

Good luck anyway!

Max Gasner
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ramblings internet webzine - politics, current events, and the world at
large
http://www.ramblings.com/
mailto:mgasner@ramblings.com

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of
liberty.
--Thomas Jefferson

This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no
power.
--Herodotus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 07:15:15 -0500
From: Max Gasner <mgasner@ramblings.com>
Subject: Re: Trademarking

TheGilster@aol.com wrote:

> Dear Babblers,
> Being a 14 year old you might now expect me to care so much about
> legal
> issues, but I am really desperate to find out how to trademark my
> company's
> name. Can anyone provide me with links on this issue? Thanks in
> advance.
>
> Gil Kruger

Hey Gil,

Check out the Patent and Trademark Office at http://www.uspto.gov/

Max Gasner (13)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ramblings internet webzine - politics, current events, and the world at
large
http://www.ramblings.com/
mailto:mgasner@ramblings.com

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of
liberty.
--Thomas Jefferson

This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no
power.
--Herodotus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 07:35:18 -0500
From: Andrew Zimmerman <zimmerma@hear.net>
Subject: CSS degradation was IE4 mac CSS problems

Chris McLay wrote:

> The only solution we have that "works" is to create two versions of the
> site, one using standard HTML for pre-CSS browsers and the other using only
> CSS. This is unacceptable to me, as the amount of work in creating, testing

<SNIP>

Not be a jerk, but aside from a global find and replace on the <P> tag what
else is involved with maintaining two separate sites? I realize you can't
always do this as a solution but in my limited experience in making non-CSS
browsers degrade CSS adequately, I put almost twice as much tags in the page.
This defeats the purpose of CSS.

The only things I have no real problems degrading are font-family and
line-height. Setting margins and the like are difficult when using images.
Let alone the difficulties in using CSS in tables.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 13:59:20 +0000
From: Joe Gillespie <pixelp@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: GRAPHICS: good 3D apps for Mac?

Matthew Snow wrote ...

>i have been out of the 3d loop for a while. i used to use alias sketch!
>and, to a lesser degree, formZ.
>
>what is a good 3d rendering program for the mac nowadays? i heard that
>strata studio pro was really good.

I've been using SSP for quite a few years now. The rendering quality IS
excellent. The modelling facilities have been much improved in 2.1
although there are still some very peculiar methodologies that annoy me.
You can see quite a few examples at the CyberCircus site (below). A 640 x
480 image at 72 ppi will ray trace at highest quality in about one minute
(on my machine).

It used to be that the rendering time was the big drawback with SSP and
other ray tracing programs but with a Powermac 9500 MP, rendering times
have become *almost* insignificant. It is now seconds or minutes and not
hours.

What I will say is that it is better to stick with one program that you
have used a lot and understand than to chop and change. There are other
interesting looking 3D programs out there, like Cinema 3D for instance,
but you would have to go through the long learning curve yet again. I
think it is better to spend the time learning how to go the extra mile
with the one you've got.

As you will have discovered with Alias Sketch, quite a few of the Mac 3D
programs have been ports from other platforms and not only do you have
the learn the new program but you have to learn a new interface paradigm,
and some of those are pretty awful! I don't like Alias Sketch at all, but
have seen some excellent work done with it.

The new high end G3 Powermacs with 6 slots and the Philips 3D chip that
were due shortly, seem to have been 'Steved' but I was reading yesterday
about tests of the G4 803 chip running at 750 Mhz and out-performing the
current top of the line by a factor of 800%. That I *am* looking forward
to.

Joe Gillespie

____________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s_____________________
N E W P U Z Z L E S ! M O R E F U N ! B I G P R I Z E S !
ringmaster@thecybercircus.com + + + http://www.thecybercircus.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:13:23 +0000
From: John Hunter <j.hunter@syzygy.co.uk>
Subject: Animated gif problem: PC MSIE 4.0

I have noticed that MSIE 4.0 for PC does not display animated gifs
properly. Some animations work fine, others load the first frame and
then do not run, or run the first 2 frames. I cannot find any difference
between the gifs that run and the ones that don't.

Has anyone else come across this problem ?

- --

John Hunter
mailto:j.hunter@syzygy.co.uk
DDE:0171 460 4189

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:26:35 -0500
From: Lance Arthur <larthur@dbtinc.com>
Subject: RE: Site content and design issues

>From: "Christian Kirschniak" <ck@dsein.com>
>Subject: Site content and design issues
>
>But: Don "really
>professional" websites need all this Flash, Javascript (Rollovers and
other
>stuff), Shockwave, Java, Active X... elements, If they only belong to
design
>purposes? Isn´t it more important to use this elements where they
really
>belong to: to distribute information and to emphasis the message we
>distribute.

Use whatever works.

gabocorp works. gabocorp is trying to sell its (his) services and is
doing so by displaying what could be done given no restraints. It isn't
a content site, it's a sales site. He is selling his capabilities and
talents and displaying them in an optimum setting. gabocorp works. It is
sleek, it grabs you by the gonads, it gets your attention - even if you
absolutely hate it (which I obviously don't) you can't deny its impact.
You have never seen anything even close to it in terms of a Web
experience before.

If one looks at his personal site, one can start to see a drawback to a
100% Flash site. Everything - text included - is inside a Flash movie.
To update the site, you must change the movie. This is not a big deal if
the site doesn't change often, but if you're constantly refreshing
content it would be, to put it mildly, problematic. Using Flash
*elements* for navigation or illustration, however, would be a very
slick solution and, no, you don't have to force a user who doesn't have
Flash to go get the plug-in, you can supply alternate images to replace
Flash movies automatically by using JavaScript to detect mime types or
plug-ins.

A gabocorp'd site (meaning 100% Flash) would be perfect for one-off web
sites built to announce movie (Amistad did) or album or product
introductions. These sites usually only last a few weeks or months and
serve as little more than interactive advertisements. You could easily
elicit visitor feedback by linking out of Flash to a form or some such.
Larger sites with an ongoing Web presence will need to change and update
often to keep people. That's what keeps us in Dockers (or the
business-leisure attire of your choice) and that's why we need a broad
skill set and we cannot ignore anything.

Use whatever works. Your client will ask for the moon, your job is to
get him or her there. Because if you don't, someone else will. Arm
yourself with all the rocketry you can. You never know who'll want speed
over style or vice versa - or both in equal measure. You always need
options and, fortunately, the Web provides them.

*Everything* has drawbacks. You're expected to know, as a Web Site
contractor, what they are and how to get around them.

Lance
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 16:35:15 +0200
From: Juha Rudanko <Juha.Bona@sci.fi>
Subject: not good enough

After asking people to review my site, I received an unencouraging
flame. Everyone seems to think I don't belong to this list because I'm
not a designer. I'm here to learn, but you perfect folk might not
understand that. I'm just trying to be a better web designer, ok??!
Maybe I'm not "advanced" enough for this list, as I'm 14 years old. At
least I just got my first client.

Juha Rudanko

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 10:01:07 -0500
From: Wendy Clark <clark@portland.com>
Subject: Job - Web page designer/HTML Technician (Portland, ME)

Job Opening: Web Page Designer/HTML Technician

New Media Development Group, a division of Guy Gannett Communications,
has an immediate full-time opening for a Web Page Designer/ HTML
Technician in Portland, Maine.

The successful candidate must be a team-oriented person with strong
design, communication and organizational skills who can work in a
fast-paced environment.

Your primary responsibilities will include designing small, easy-to-build
web sites and web site platforms for small businesses. Knowledge of more
sophisticated web applications a plus.

Qualifications include thorough knowledge, understanding and experience
with current versions of commercial design-based software such as
Photoshop 3-4 (experience with Illustrator, Freehand, Painter, etc. a
plus) Ability to perform web-based activities (and experience with
software to facilitate) such as: scanning, photo retouching, file
compression, file conversion, FTP, and HTML coding. Some working
knowledge of the Internet, spreadsheets, word processing, simple
databases a plus. Knowledge of Macintosh equipment and platforms
essential.

Qualified applicants should submit a message expressing interest and
resume with salary history to Michael Lawrence, lawrence@portland.com.
Please do NOT send attachments.

We are an equal opportunity employer.
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 16:06:49 +0100
From: "S. Lutzmann" <SLUTZMANN@asv.de>
Subject: valentine

Our homepage is still under construction, but we want to offer you
our two valentine screensavers. We really hope you´ll like them

have fun
Sabine

- -----------------------------------------------------------
Sabine Lutzmann Tel: ++49-172-4339430
Axel Springer Verlag Ag FA.: ++49-40-34726192
- - electronic publishing - Fax: ++49-40-34726195

"mailto:lutzmann@fishing4.com"
http://fishing4.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:38:00 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: re: Site content and design issues

Christian said:

>Isn't it more important to use this elements where they really
>belong to: to distribute information and to emphasis the message we
>distribute.

This is exactly what graphic design is. Design is not to make things 'cool'
but rather to communicate a message.

We use design elements such as layout, interactivity, color, typography,
etc... all to facilitate thedelivery of the message.

Now, sometimes that message benefits from a 'cool' presentation.

It is our job as designers to know when to use or NOT to use these elements.

- -Darrel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:37:01 -0500
From: leslie harpold <leslie@fearless.net>
Subject: Re: not good enough

At 04:35 PM 2/3/98 +0200, Juha Rudanko wrote:
>After asking people to review my site, I received an unencouraging
>flame. Everyone seems to think I don't belong to this list because I'm
>not a designer. I'm here to learn, but you perfect folk might not
>understand that. I'm just trying to be a better web designer, ok??!
>Maybe I'm not "advanced" enough for this list, as I'm 14 years old. At
>least I just got my first client.

Therein lies the rub. If you want to be a business person, and taken
seriously as such, you have to expect to answer to the standards of
excellence your industy sets, or better still create them. The bar is
high, and you should look at that as a way to propel you upwards. If you
wnat to be a successful business person, and not just a novelty act, you
need to be willing to say "okay, are you right and my work is bad or are
you wrong and this is exactly the work I want to present?"

You can't say take me seriously as a businessperson even though I'm only 14
but be extra gentle with me becuase I'm only 14.

You need to make a decision. Suck up some of the hits you may not be
mature enough to handle, or postpone the business world until you're
feeling stronger.

Business does not care how old you are.

leslie harpold
http://smug.com http://www.hoopla.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"the answer is there, but 'there' is not a
fixed position" - Fugazi
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:22:49 -0600
From: egan jones <wahoo@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: GRAPHICS: good 3D apps for Mac?

>The rendering quality IS
>excellent.

Is SSP good for animation? I've been playing with FormZ (work copy), but
haven't sunk too many hours into learning it's interface. It's not the
RenderZone version, and mostly just a modeling environment. At work we use
it mainly for translation between different formats.

What formats can you input/output with SSP?

>The new high end G3 Powermacs with 6 slots and the Philips 3D chip that
>were due shortly, seem to have been 'Steved' but I was reading yesterday
>about tests of the G4 803 chip running at 750 Mhz and out-performing the
>current top of the line by a factor of 800%. That I *am* looking forward
>to.

Zoiks Shaggy! Me too! Could you please post the URL where you read that?

Many thanks-
egan

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>Matthew Snow wrote ...
>
>>i have been out of the 3d loop for a while. i used to use alias sketch!
>>and, to a lesser degree, formZ.
>>
>>what is a good 3d rendering program for the mac nowadays? i heard that
>>strata studio pro was really good.
>
>I've been using SSP for quite a few years now. The rendering quality IS
>excellent. The modelling facilities have been much improved in 2.1
>although there are still some very peculiar methodologies that annoy me.
>You can see quite a few examples at the CyberCircus site (below). A 640 x
>480 image at 72 ppi will ray trace at highest quality in about one minute
>(on my machine).
>
>It used to be that the rendering time was the big drawback with SSP and
>other ray tracing programs but with a Powermac 9500 MP, rendering times
>have become *almost* insignificant. It is now seconds or minutes and not
>hours.
>
>What I will say is that it is better to stick with one program that you
>have used a lot and understand than to chop and change. There are other
>interesting looking 3D programs out there, like Cinema 3D for instance,
>but you would have to go through the long learning curve yet again. I
>think it is better to spend the time learning how to go the extra mile
>with the one you've got.
>
>As you will have discovered with Alias Sketch, quite a few of the Mac 3D
>programs have been ports from other platforms and not only do you have
>the learn the new program but you have to learn a new interface paradigm,
>and some of those are pretty awful! I don't like Alias Sketch at all, but
>have seen some excellent work done with it.
>
>The new high end G3 Powermacs with 6 slots and the Philips 3D chip that
>were due shortly, seem to have been 'Steved' but I was reading yesterday
>about tests of the G4 803 chip running at 750 Mhz and out-performing the
>current top of the line by a factor of 800%. That I *am* looking forward
>to.
>
>Joe Gillespie
>
>
>____________________T_h_e___C_y_b_e_r_C_i_r_c_u_s_____________________
> N E W P U Z Z L E S ! M O R E F U N ! B I G P R I Z E S !
> ringmaster@thecybercircus.com + + + http://www.thecybercircus.com
>
>..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
>..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
>."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #180
****************************

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