Babble v1 173

babble-digest Saturday, January 31 1998 Volume 01 : Number 173

In this issue:
gabo (again)
Re: typography question
Re: babble-digest V1 #169
Re: babble-digest V1 #172
Re: babble-digest V1 #172
critiquing Gabocorp...
trashing people's sites...
missing the point re Jodi...
Alberto Gabriel Mendoza
throwing up on paintings...
site discussion vs site critique...
The Pesky One-Pixel Border
throwing up on paintings...
Opera - move over NN & IE?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:25:09 +0000
From: Struan donald <sdonald@lineone.net>
Subject: gabo (again)

this might be a bit late as i get the digest but...

i connect with a 33.6k modem and the site took at least a minute to
load, and that wasn't at anything like peak times. it is impressive but
there was well over 200k in flash files. you've got to ask is the
size/wow tradeoff worth it? unless you've got a specific need or you're
very good with flash i'd say no.

struan donald
sdonald@lineone.net

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:31:39 -0600
From: Jonathan Magee <spirollel@thegatlinggroup.com>
Subject: Re: typography question

Well, as far as design goes, just set it apart in another way.
The most obvious answer is to change the margins and point
size of the first block.

jonathan

- --
[ http://www.thegatlinggroup.com/~spiro ]
.< <<spirollel[graphic]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:29:28 -0600
From: vince burkhead <vince@icon-stl.net>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #169

>Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:31:20 +0000

>From: "David P. Leader" <<d.leader@bio.gla.ac.uk>

>Subject: JS Book recommendation?

>Can anyone recommend a javascript book which has an emphasis on
graphic

>tricks and explains the language clearly?

>I bought a Danny Goodman book on the subject a couple of years back,
but

>(perhaps because the initial javascript was limited) found it focussed
on

>doing things that either irritated me when I saw them executed (extra

>windows and the like) or related primarily to form filling. I mention
this,

>not as criticism of that book, but to indicate what I am NOT looking
for. I

>realize that one can modify other people's javascript examples, but
I'd

>like something that laid out the language clearly so I can understand
the

>scripts and work stuff out for myself. Any suggestions?

>David

> --------------------------------------------------

> | Dr David P. Leader |

> | Division of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology,|

> | Davidson Building |

> | University of Glasgow, |

> | Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK. |

> | |

> | Tel: +44 (0)141 330 5905 |

> | Fax: +44 (0)141 330 4620 |

> | http://www.biochem.gla.ac.uk/BMB.html |

David,

I have the BEST Javascript book recommendation for you -- "Designing
with Javascript, Creating dynamic web pages" by Nick Heinle, put out by
O'Reilly. Nick is only 17, but a freakin' java genius. The book comes
with a CD-Rom of sample scripts and covers: Dynamic HTML, rollovers,
intelligent forms, tours, tests, games, customizing your sites,
cookies, java animations, etc. It is praised by David Seigel, he writes
the foreward, in fact. You cannot go wrong for $29.95. My sites more
interactive and dynamic b/c of Nick. enjoy the java...

<bigger>Vincent Burkhead, Principle @ Merge Solutions

URL: http://www.mergesolutions.net

email: hello@mergesolutions.net

"don't start vast projects

with half-vast ideas."

</bigger>
<bigger>Vincent Burkhead, Principle @ Merge Solutions

URL: http://www.mergesolutions.net

email: hello@mergesolutions.net

"don't start vast projects

with half-vast ideas."</bigger>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:36:10 -0500
From: Jonathan Prince <jonathan@killyourtv.com>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #172

>Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:07:11 -0600
>From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
>Subject: Re: jodi.org style...

>Yeah, whatever. OK, here's a more critical analysis of my jodi.org experience:
>
>+ The flashing was rather hard on my eyes.
>+ The gibberish ASCII symbols appeared to be arranged with no rhyme
> or reason. I couldn't see the pattern or image they were trying to
> convey.
- ----

If you are speaking of http://www.jodi.org/-
you obviously have not viewed the source.
[if you are on a mac view the source and then change the font to monaco and
make it 10 point]

Jodi.org is a great site, if you like seeing has far you can stretch HTML
to its absolute limit, and then some. There is much we can ALL learn for
jodi.org's code.

It's art folks, doesn't mean have to like it, but it is art.

I don't mean to get personal, but your site is about making money (nothing
wrong with that). Jodi.org is about 'creative technology.'

jonathan prince
http://www.killyourtv.com
http://www.tmn.com/jprince

>+ I didn't understand the final screen's relevance, or what idea they
> where trying to convey, or point they were trying to make.
>
>Anyway, is it a crime to call things the way we see them? To have an
>opinion? Jeez, guess I'm not politically correct enough. How does that
>go... one man's meat is another man's poison? I thought this was a
>discussion, someone saying "check this site out" is enough, in my book, to
>elicit comments, both positive and negative. In the future, I'll sugarcoat
>my comments so as to not offend the fragile, precious sensibilities of the
>annointed arbiters of digirati taste.
>
>To be fair, I did give the site a second look. Now it looks like an even
>BIGGER garbage heap to me. :D
>____________________
>PFPD -- newmedia marketing consulting
>a limited liability company
>PO Box 281, Granger, IN 46530-0281 v:616.663.2250
><mailto:pfpd@pfpd.com> -- <http://www.pfpd.com>
>competitive business advantages through creative technology

Jonathan Prince "in the electric age rumors become news."
jonathan@killyourtv.com - Marshall McLuhan
http://www.killyourtv.com

"If you turn on your television and switch your channel to channel 18,
you will see God making the advertisement that he is coming into the
world,....It is advertised by God himself."
-- Quote from Taiwanese UFO Cult Leader

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:36:10 -0500
From: Jonathan Prince <jonathan@killyourtv.com>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #172

>Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:07:11 -0600
>From: Pat Flanagan <pfpd@pfpd.com>
>Subject: Re: jodi.org style...

If you are speaking of http://www.jodi.org/-
you obviously have not viewed the source.
[if you are on a mac view the source and then change the font to monaco and
make it 10 point]

Jodi.org is a great site, if you like seeing has far you can stretch HTML
to its absolute limit, and then some. There is much we can ALL learn for
jodi.org's code.

It's art folks, doesn't mean have to like it, but it is art.

I don't mean to get personal, but your site is about making money (nothing
wrong with that). Jodi.org is about 'creative technology.'

jonathan prince
http://www.killyourtv.com
http://www.tmn.com/jprince

Jonathan Prince "in the electric age rumors become news."
jonathan@killyourtv.com - Marshall McLuhan
http://www.killyourtv.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:36:18 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: critiquing Gabocorp...

Actually, what happened was someone posted it as an interesting site to
go and have a look at. People went and all of a sudden it became a big
conversation. Yes some people were critical, but that was NOT how it
started out. When I mentioned the site on other lists AFTER finding out
about it here, I specifically said that I was NOT asking for a site
critique. Suggesting that someone take a look at a site is not asking
for a critique. Although some people might take it as an invitation...

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:39:01 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: trashing people's sites...

When ever I see someone completely trashing someone else's work, I
confess that a streak of something, maybe juvenality (spelling?) makes
me wonder EXACTLY what sort of work that person is capable off. I am not
talking about a fair and balanced, possible negative review, but out and
out meaness...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:45:11 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: missing the point re Jodi...

Greetings Pat.

You wondered if you missed the point of

http://www.jodi.org

In fact, you called it a garbageheap.

Well, I would have to say (but not too meanly, so don't get all upset)
that you did indeed miss the point.

When I see stuff like that, I think of it as art. Some of it I like,
some of it I don't. It doesn't serve a purpose of selling something,
such as a product. It's simple a showcase, constantly updated of
ever-changing ASCII art and JavaScript. That's it, nothing more.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:47:11 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Alberto Gabriel Mendoza

jeremy <jeremy@superlink.net> wrote:

"With all the hoopla centering Alberto Gabriel Mendoza,
who is unquestionably talented as seen in gabocorp.com,
does he even know his work has generated much discussion?
Personally, I'd like to hear Alberto's view point of Gabbo
and his Flash philosophy. Perhaps, we can learn something,
even those who are immune to different tricks of the trade."

and Chris_Mabry@ccmail.prusec.com wrote:

"I second this notion. I'm not immune to learning new things. In fact,
as a way of generating more discussion on this list about design
issues and the design of specific sites, perhaps we could occasionaly
have "guest" designers present a site of their's, explaining why they
did the things they did, how they did certain things, why they didn't
do other things, etc. The list could then discuss, offer opinions,
etc."

I wrote to the young Mr. Mendoza and told him how much conversation his
site had generated. I also told him that after seeing his URL posted
here, I posted it to two other lists where it also was a huge
conversation starter. When I posted the URL, I specifically stated that
it was not a request for a site critique but rather an observation of
some interesting Flash work. I also forwarded some of the commentary to
him, and he was very interested to read it. I mentioned to him about how
to sign up for the lists. I hope he will join us soon. I went out and
got a Flash book today, and I am installing Flash this weekend!!!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:53:48 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: throwing up on paintings...

Actually, that person in Paris was an American, as I recall, and didn't
he say that he did it (threw up on the painting) to protest 'banal' art.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:11:12 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: site discussion vs site critique...

There is a big difference between discussing and interesting site and
critiquing, although some people, and I am not referring to anyone in
particular, may not alway realize that and may feel the need to
completely trash someone's work.

This exact same question came up on another list, and in reference to
the 'gabocorp' site. Someone made a very interesting reply to the effect
that putting your work in a public forum invites discussion. I agree,
but I don't believe that doing so is also an invitation for destruction
from strangers.

On a related note, someone posted a URL for 7 deadly sins of Web design.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_1716.html

According to Jesse Berst, these are inconsistent navigation, broken
links, browser-specific sites, no contact information, sites that open
new browsers, and under construction signs. And of course, he had
subcategories too.

At the bottom of the article, he said:

"Send us your list of top sins. And sinners.
Which sites would you like to send to hell for
sinning against us all? Scroll to the bottom of this
page and click the TalkBack button to send me
a note directly. I'll post some of the most
damning and most hilarious responses"

Now it is one thing for to discuss generally, what you do and don't like
about a site but can you imagine having your site riduculed in a public
forum as large as ZDNet?
- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
.."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:33:56 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: The Pesky One-Pixel Border

I was browsing through Netscape's DevEdge tonight, when I ran into this page:
http://developer.netscape.com/library/technote/dhtml/flushlft/index.html

The intro to the page says this:

"Until now, web page developers have been irked by the extra pixel of
space that appears in the far left margin of their pages displayed in
Communicator. A new piece of code shows you how to omit it."

I thought, "Cool, let's check that out!" But when I looked at this
revolutionary piece of code (in NS4, by the way), it turned out to be the
old MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0 thing, and the demo of "flush left" still
had that annoying single-pixel border because it was in a frameset. Am I on
crack, or does it seem silly to post a solution that illustrates the very
problem that it claims to solve? (This "solution" does work if you view the
page at the top level, outside of a frameset. So why not open a new browser
window?)

As a tangent, I have heard several people complain about Netscape's
implementation of this "no margins" feature (MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0),
as opposed to Microsoft's (LEFTMARGIN=0 TOPMARGIN=0), as screwing things up
just to be different from Microsoft. Has anyone considered that, at the
time Microsoft introduced it's implementation, the FRAME tags already used
the MARGINWIDTH/HEIGHT syntax? To me, it seems like Netscape was just
continuing on the logical path of a unified paradigm, while Microsoft was
the one looking to throw their own methodology into the mix.

Not to mention that, based on Netscape's implementation, MARGINWIDTH/HEIGHT
makes sense -- it's the margin on all sides of the window/frame, not just
the top and left sides, as is the case with Explorer.

Anyway . . . It's tired and I'm late.

- - Porter

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:43:57 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: throwing up on paintings...

i've been told that this upchucking fellow might be South American, and
that he first consumed a large quantity of blue dye...

i REALLY have to wonder what he is planning to do about the truly
'banal' stuff littering the Web. whatever it is, i hope he is going to
do it soon...

then again, one person's banal, is another person's, well, beloved site

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:11:37 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Opera - move over NN & IE?

Webreview has an indepth series of articles on the Norwegian browser,
Opera (Windows, only for now, I believe) which, by many accounts, is
surprisingly robust while amazingly small

Opera: Phantom of the Web - Unveiling the mystery browser
http://webreview.com/wr/pub/98/01/30/feature/index.html

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #173
****************************

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