Babble v1 168

babble-digest Wednesday, January 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 168

In this issue:
Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: perl gif utility...
Re: (gabocorp): what their site shows and doesn't show
Gabo
Re: Gabo -- why so shocked?
re: gabo gabo gabo
REVIEW : R3PTILIA
Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)
Re: REVIEW : R3PTILIA
Re: REVIEW : R3PTILIA
Re: babble-digest V1 #167
Gabocorp...
Re: Subject: Video Capture/Editing?
www.gabocorp.com
re: http://www.gabocorp.com/ and...
Babylon 5
Re: Gabbo agonistes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:37:53 -0800
From: Christopher Daniels <dthree@inland.net>
Subject: Re: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

Chris Mabry said:
So, a navigation scheme such as that on Gabocorp is going to help a
company market their product? I really don't think so. If Coke uses that
scheme on their web page, are you going to go buy more of their product?
I wouldn't. If the navigational elements turn into pictures of
bikini-clad women as they rotate, then maybe I will! After all, sex
sells, but floating buttons don't.

Chris Mabry said:
Yes, their navigation is good marketing for their *own* site, but it
won't help most commercial based sites move product.

Chris Mabry said:
Hey, if the "kid" gets more power and more clients through his
advertising, I have no problem with that. But Babble is a list devoted
to discussing web design, not web marketing. What I'm saying is that the
"ooo, ahhh" factor doesn't help in the *design* of this site.

(??????""What obnoxious drivel. Or maybe it should just be chalked up to
over-hyped marketing."""???????????)

<!-the oooo ahhh factor is the key link in the design ***.... cause
thats what hes selling ....the oooo ahhhh.-->

Chris Mabry said:
Well, I'm not trying to be obnoxious, just stating my honest opinion
about the design of the Gabocorp site. Can you (or someone else) tell me
exactly what was obnoxious about my post, if anything? If it was my tone
of voice, er, uh, typing, then I can work on my expression. If it was
the content of my post, then please address that and then we'll be
discussing design, which is the intent of Babble.

(???""I know it's easier to tear a site down with criticism than to
build it up with praise, but the "...we do not make slow, stiff, boring
sites that drive your customers away" statement really gripes my
cookies.""???)

<<<<<<----- your right babble is for design..... but i recall mailing
you off list..
and seem to be recieving your response to through babble and
still hear no talk
of design ....just some grudge against FLASH and the sites
marketing..????

(((on babble ..??? god fobid.

Christopher Daniels said:
good by.
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:56:15 -0800
From: bnewman@imaginemedia.com (Ben Newman)
Subject: Re: perl gif utility...

http://www.perl.com/CPAN-local/modules/by-module/Image/

add this module and it gives you the ability to read the height and width
of an image. From there you could write a simple script to search your
pages for image tags and add the height and width attributes.

>a while back i heard of a little perl gif utility that went through html
>and added height and width tags. and now i'm paying for my initial
>laziness in not putting them in by having to insert them all manually.
>has anyone seen this program (or anything else) that will do this?

Ben Newman

Weee!! It's head explodie time!
http://www.gawth.com/~shocking/ben-head.gif
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:53:50 +0000
From: Paul Frost <paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: (gabocorp): what their site shows and doesn't show

In message <Pine.SGI.3.96.980128124348.25238A-100000@tiger.coe.missouri.
edu>, Lara Schmidt <lara@coe.missouri.edu> writes
>To one extent yes, their site IS undoubtedly proof of talent. They are
>obvously talented designers and handy with the Flash. But I have to agree
>with Chris on one point, this site does not necessarily prove to Joe
>Businessman that they can serve the needs of his business and his
>customers. I wouldn't know if it showed any examples of its other sites.
>It always locks up my browser (Communicator 4.04, Power PC) when I get to
>the work site.
>Functionality, interactivity, and meeting customers' business needs--none
>of these things come out of the bells and whistles for me.
>
>Great artists, but it seems these guys need to work on their business
>savy.
the majority of joe businessmen kids i deal with would never dram of surfing the
web to find a designer. ever. the agenda, for most clients, does not happen to
include parlour tricks and interactivity. most clients live ny their LCD
mantras. scary but true.

it's ironic then, that a proportion of most designer's time is spent whinging
about this very fact. yet when we see something which challenges the orthodox,
we freak, crosspost, and rant. we are the very ppl who should be supporting
ventures like this (i speak purely in design terms here). yes, the navigation
isn't what we're used to producing: and that's good dammit. we witter about a
dearth of good sites, and how the web is laden with pasteurised shit, so let's
open our eyes this once and revel in the naivity of gabocorp's work: i like the
lack of business savvy.

the most disappointing thing for me, however, is not the comments made directly
about the work, but some of the sarcastic microsoft-sponsored-road to hell
remarks made about chris's mail. nihilism is all too easy young jedis. not big
not clever not funny. not....

pkf, jan 28 8.53pm GMT
paul@hpromo.demon.co.uk
[insert witty sig file here]

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:00:17 EST
From: NEOMASTINO <NEOMASTINO@aol.com>
Subject: Gabo

Someone wrote:

>>The dizzifying
effects of the Gabosite are quite powerful.>>

I'm an epileptic and the gabo flash triggered a seizure. So, i'm done for the
day. This may be cool to some. Its flash ruined my day. I can handle a bit of
it, and this is the first site that has hit me this hard.

donna ayala
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:02:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: Gabo -- why so shocked?

i was thinking about this a lil more today after reading the responses...

and pondered.

the site is intended to show off the abilities of what this individual
(you all *did* notice it is only person right?) is capable of.

being that it is almost entirely shock/macromedia enhanced is almost
beside the point, but rather that he thought that whole thing up from
scratch.. or at least put it into reality.

you may not like it, (not you personally donna-but the collective) but to
me at least...

1. hes pushing your buttons, good or bad, thats the first step to taking
something to the next level.

2. hes a 19 year old getting some real attention from the industry for
what he has/is accomplishing.

3. i agree with porter (not following, merely restating) that the idea of
"tying" together a design into a seamless presentation is the what
everyone is trying to subconciously (sp?) accomplish.

the transitions are fluid and im able to understand where im going.

4. the navigation is something that can always be refined and expanded...
but for concept, its not bad.

to me, this site achieves a lot of what regular html does not do.

as for the marketing, he took a stance... maybe it works for him, but we
are here to dicuss the logistics of "doing it" not "selling it" .. thats
what the pr pepl are for ;D

thanx for the time to babble (ha!)

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, NEOMASTINO wrote:

> Someone wrote:
>
> >>The dizzifying
> effects of the Gabosite are quite powerful.>>
>
> I'm an epileptic and the gabo flash triggered a seizure. So, i'm done for the
> day. This may be cool to some. Its flash ruined my day. I can handle a bit of
> it, and this is the first site that has hit me this hard.
>
> donna ayala
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:36:07 -0800 (PST)
From: brent simpson <simp@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: re: gabo gabo gabo

>I suspect gabo is a one man show run by a guy in his late teens or early
>twenties. Hardly the type to have much marketing experience. What he really
>needs is somebody to teach him selling techniques.

there is a home page for this gabo character ... he's 19 and studying
computer science
in puerto rico.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:18:33 -0500
From: "Carlos J. Roldán" <croldan@pragma.com.co>
Subject: REVIEW : R3PTILIA

- -----7he 5i7e I |ike show is-----
http://www.pragma.com.co/reptilia
- ---a|| commen75 (9ood and bad)---
- ------------are we||come---------
- ------5oon we cons7ruc7 7he -----
- ----5econd ver5ion --------------

- -------R3PT----------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:40:51 +0800
From: Chris McLay <chris@eycon.com.au>
Subject: Re[2]: have you seen this? (gabocorp)

>I know it's easier to tear a site down with criticism than to build it up
>with praise, but the "...we do not make slow, stiff, boring sites that
>drive your customers away" statement really gripes my cookies. If you want
>to imply that most web sites are stiff and boring and that you can create
>sites that are oh so much better, then I would expect more supporting
>evidence than the Gabocorp site delivers. After seeing their navigational
>tools float around a couple of times, their site drove me away quite
>quickly.

Hi don't know how much browsing Chris has done, but most of what I see is
"slow, stiff, boring". Not everything, but a good majority. Most of the web
is not created by designers.

>As a final comment to all, and as a summary of my views on the Gabocorp
>site, let me state that while I don't like design of Gabocorp due to the
>way Flash is used on it, their mastery of the technology gives me
>confidence that Gabocorp can develop sites that use it effectively, ***if
>they use it for practical purposes*** and not navigation.

Since when is navigation not a practical purpose. It is a major part of web
design, and in many sites is the only opportunity you get to add some life
to the site. The use of animation in the navigation was simple, strong and
did not get in the way of the content provided. People love to see things
move, and I would much prefer to see that on sites I visit regularly then
most of what I get now.

I was very impressed with the site. My only problem was the plug-in
requirement for the site to be of any use. After looking with my main
browser, I loaded it in a browser with out Shockwave and it was useless,
but did give good assistance in getting things up and running.

I would like to see how Gabocorp handles it's first (seems like first)
corporate client. From what I have seen, they have a way to go in dealing
with some practicalities of working for a client, but we have not seen a
client site yet, so lets see where they go.

Chris

___________________________________________________________________________

Chris McLay E y c o n S t u d i o
managing director
3b Hubble Street, East Fremantle WA 6158, Australia
Email chris@eycon.com.au Web http://www.eycon.com.au/
Telephone 08 9339 0909 Mobile 041 123 9190 Facsimile 08 9339 0808
___________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:56:20 -0800
From: Kevin Cheng <chengn@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: REVIEW : R3PTILIA

Carlos J. Roldán wrote:
> -----7he 5i7e I |ike show is-----
> http://www.pragma.com.co/reptilia
> ---a|| commen75 (9ood and bad)---
> ------------are we||come---------
> ------5oon we cons7ruc7 7he -----
> ----5econd ver5ion --------------
> -------R3PT----------------------

d00d, y0ur 5173 wuz 50 c00| (@nd k3w| 2).

1f y0ur 5173 15 @5 l3g1b|e a5 y0ur 3-m@1|, 17'5 n07 w0r7h my tr0ub|3.

(translation:
dude, your site wuz so cool (and kewl 2).

if your site is as legible as your e-mail, it's not worth my trouble.)

why do people insist on using alternative ascii characters? does it make
them cool? i mean, i know we've discussed how e-mail grammar is or is
not important (as you can see form my lack of caps, i'm more for the
"less important" camp) but using "5i7e" is one of the worse i've seen
yet and to me, is a display of immaturity. given that he's made it
difficult for us to even read his e-mail, why should i believe his site
would be legibile?

but since this IS babble and i don't like wasting bandwidth just to
flame someone, i did look at the site.

and hey, whaddaya know, no 3's instead of e's, no 7's instead of t's. so
if the web site doesn't warrant that, why an e-mail?

oh yeah, the site. well aside from some nit pickers, it's pretty darn
slick! the graphics are clean, despite the dual language, i don't have
any problems nagivating. i particularly like the hand navigation in the
portfolio. consistency may be a problem though. every subsection uses a
different navigation method as well as color scheme, frame setup etc
etc. that just doesn't make sense. how is one to know when you're in
reptillia and when you've left?

i also found two splash pages. one to say you need netscape and the
other was the real splash page. i understand artistic needs to isolate
the splash design but telling people they need netscape 3 is a very
small thing that could and should be implemented into the same splash
screen. why waste their time d/ling two different pages? incidentally,
the second splash screen is well done as well.

so there you have it folks, my humble review of yet another site. two in
a day, me doth think i hath surfaced from lurkdom.

kev
- --
.-----------------.-------------------------------------------------.
| kevin cheng | simon fraser university computer engineering |
| chengn@sfu.ca | euss co-prez # illusion designs |
| kevin@osl.com | http://www.sfu.ca/~chengn |
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:07:42 -0800
From: "Jorge Hurtado" <hurtado@exo.com>
Subject: Re: REVIEW : R3PTILIA

If I may add,
Using those alternative characters is a new trend that works if it's well
applied. There are few characters (numbers) that can become letters
depending on the typeface you're using... again, if it's used wisely,
keeping in mind solid aesthetic principles it works.. e-mail humm probably
not.

jorge

>if your site is as legible as your e-mail, it's not worth my trouble.)
>
>why do people insist on using alternative ascii characters? does it make
>them cool? i mean, i know we've discussed how e-mail grammar is or is

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 06:13:25 -0700
From: Helene LaCaille <lacaille@slip.net>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #167

I'm building my web site, an online portfolio. When viewed through Net.
3.0, my jpeg's look good, but when viewed through Net. 4.0, images
dither...suggestions?
Thanks everyone, I find this list helpful.
helene@commdes.com
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:59:16 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Gabocorp...

We saw this site recently - our Flash2 guy checks out Shockzone everyday
and pointed it out to us.

Having had a lot of experience building corporate websites, considering the
lowest common denominator, markleting techniques, etc., my first urge was
to criticize the very weak content of the site.

But that urge was totally overshadowed by the fabulous presentation,
flowing navigational structure, and overall "wow" factor. It _was_
awesome, we all know it, and I suspect some of us are a little bit jealous.
In my opinion, a site like this _can_ outperform regular HTML; it can
overpower boring web marketing tactics; it can inspire awe in someone
sitting in front of a little 14" screen. Really... isn't that what the
web is all about? Reaching this level as the norm someday?

I view Gabocorp as "upping the ante" for the web design profession. The
power of Flash also struck home - a complete site built in Flash can be
better and faster than its HTML cousins.

- -Ryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:24:29 -0500
From: "Todd O'Neill" <ToddONeill@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Video Capture/Editing?

>We would like to digitally capture and edit movie clips - from video cassette,
>camcorder, CD-ROM, etc. - with sound, and possibly even mix in a few stills.

Try the Intel Smart Video Recorder II. $199.00 US.

The also have a new scaleable codec for web served video that lets you
choose whether speed or quality is more important to.

Todd O'Neill Executive Producer
Emedia Communications toddoneill@compuserve.com

***** Electronic Business Communications *****

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:13:36 -0600
From: Issac Thurmond <ike@world-net.net>
Subject: www.gabocorp.com

It's funny to see how change actually stikes fear. Emerson once said
that "the only antidote for fear is knowledge." Gabo, regardless of
site structure and navigation and script errors and so on and so and so
on, has made a site demonstrating the endless possibilities that we as
designers have the opprotunity to exploit and immplement into our
occupations. Lets not overlook the obvious people.
Everybody knows that what we do can be a pain in the ass and I have a
lot of respect for what he has done and DESIGNED.

"It is always easier to destroy, than to create"

Issac Thurmond
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 02:08:35 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: re: http://www.gabocorp.com/ and...

1) I agree that

http://www.gabocorp.com/

is an excellent use of Flash AND I admit to feeling jealous. But I also
feel inspired as well. Inspired to learn more and work harder.

Regarding the dragged out negative commentary on this site. This is
clearly a portfolio site. Let's define the real meaning of 'portfolio'
- - it means 'hey look at what I can do...'

Everyone says that everyone else can't do as good a job as themselves.
And this is said in various ways, including "that other place/those
other people build boring static sites..." It's called marketing, hype,
self-promotion, etc... Sometimes it can be over the top, but if it gets
a job, then it has served its purpose, hasn't it?

2) Just because you use a particular tool, let's say GoLive CyberStudio
(or anything else for that matter), doesn't mean that you can or will
build better sites than everyone else. In other words, just because you
have the biggest, most expensive hammer, doesn't mean that you will make
the best house. Repeat after me: "It is the craftsperson, not his or her
tools."

3) Yes, Seigel and Studio Verso and Adjacency are big names. They get
the big accounts, and lots of press (hmm, marketing, hype,
self-promotion), etc...

And yes, they have built some great sites, and yes, they have some
things to say about Web design and development (often in over-priced
books) BUT I can always usually tell when I am on a site by one of the
big names (and not just the two mentioned, by the way), even before I
see their logo or link? Why? Because they all look the SAME!!!

So learn your craft, surf the Web, read books and magazines, talk with
your peers, try to be original, don't listen to people who tell you you
can't do something, make the rules, bend the rules, but be original, and
try to at least make a living doing something that you like.

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 02:27:25 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Babylon 5

Someone wrote:

"right now this site reminds me of that
babylon 5 show. it looks really good, it
sounds really good, but the script sucks."

To which I reply:

LAY OFF BABYLON 5!!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 02:44:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeffrey Zeldman <jeffrey@zeldman.com>
Subject: Re: Gabbo agonistes

(In case you forgot: http://www.gabocorp.com/)

Only on Babble could a single website generate so many KB of ascii
friction. (I suppose that's a good thing when we disagree on principles and
aesthetics; not so good when the discussion stoops to personal attacks, as
it too often does here.)

My own feeling is, it's a good demonstration of the creator's design
skills, mastery of Flash, and low, low prices. (Yike! I hope *my* clients
don't see those prices.)

Like an earlier poster, I was pained by this statement:

>the web
>exists strictly for marketing. without it, there is no way it would
>survive. period.

I'd argue that *the web as we now know it* is marketing-driven, but this is
not its only, primary, or ultimate purpose. We are in a transition period,
from academic/military "visual ham radio" to a seamless communication
medium which will ultimately be available to everyone, and which will
continue to evolve in ways none of us can imagine. For now, marketing
drives the software (with mixed results) and provides employment for some
of us.

I also appreciated Porter's point that:

>The rule about navigation is not that it should always be in the same
>place, or >even look the same, but that it should lend itself to easily
>accessing the
>information that it sits on top of, however this is best accomplished in a
>given situation.

For me, these two posts, and the pleasure of visiting the site, redeemed a
long slog through the ascii flames.

That, and the thought that Gabbo may actually get some work out of all this
attention; and more power to him.

I dread the thought that, as the mails continue to repeat on this list, we
will have to read these posts over and over again.

Jeffrey

______jeffrey zeldman presents__________________________

a list apart (one daily digest for people who make websites):
http://www.zeldman.com/advanced/

_________________________ http://www.zeldman.com _______

------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #168
****************************

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