Babble v1 151

babble-digest Tuesday, January 20 1998 Volume 01 : Number 151

In this issue:
framswap happy
frameswap fix
Re: what direction - step back?
Re: FWD: Make Max's Day
Re: FWD: Make Max's Day
Re: FWD: Make Max's Day
RE: Re: Bill Gates site (or: What matters)
TECH: Swap any number of frames with one JS function
Browser detect javascript
Re: the "duel part deux" .. cause we can ...
Re: the "duel part deux" .. cause we can ...
Web Servers
another bug (JS) in NS4.04/Win95...
Re: Web Servers
Re: the "duel part deux" .. cause we can ...
Re: babble-digest V1 #150
Re:Make Max's Day
Re: rollover-to-image map

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:30:25 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: framswap happy

I'm getting much closer to solving this javascript problem. Many thanks
for all of the replies (quite surprising how many of you did).

Anyway, have a look at the update if you would. Notice that the left
link doesn't work, yet the other two on the right do. I don't see any
difference in the code.

http://www.abmworldlink.com/frameswap/

Any takers.

Erik
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:22:02 -0600
From: Erik Kittlaus <erik@unidial.com>
Subject: frameswap fix

Porter. You da man. You nailed the problem on the nose. I needed to
add the extra parent to the code. Thanks. For those who'd like to make
use of this code, I've posted a fixed example at:

http://www.abmworldlink.com/frameswap

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:15:55 -0500
From: Shelby <srogers@worldweb.net>
Subject: Re: what direction - step back?

At 09:05 PM 1/16/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On another note:
>>The W3C offers good guidlines for HTML...but HTML won't be around
>>forever...the web is WAY too young to start stunting its growth with
>>'standards'.
>
>HTML won't be around forever?!

Nope. We'll probably stick with some subset of SGML, the language from
which HTML is derived, so I imagine HTML pages will pretty much always be
readable...

>I read a very interesting article the other month/year ("Ensuring the
>Longevity of Digital Documents," by Jeff Rothenberg; Scientific American,
>January 1995) about the "usable lifetime" of digital media, commenting on
>how paper is king.

There's an effort at the Presidio (I'm pretty sure it's there) to document
the entire contents of the World Wide Web. It's quite an amazing project,
actually.

They apparently have this massive server farm that's archiving everything.
It retrieves from servers, and somehow is set up to retrieve new versions
of the pages when they appear. And somehow they manage not to significantly
slow down the 'net while this is going on.

I don't think it crawls cgi-generated pages, like most search engines, but
that may have changed.

It's been awhile since I read the article, so I don't have an URL, I just
remember readin' all about it.

shelby rogers/web diva/dc webgrrl/person.html

Whatever you can do or dream you can do, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now.
-Goethe
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:54:59 -0500
From: Brian Dame <brian@iweb.net>
Subject: Re: FWD: Make Max's Day

Kevin wrote:

>this was posted on another list and I saw the perfect opportunity to do a
>Good-Deed-Of-the-Day. I went to the site and like the message below says,
>it's not anything we would make, but think of it this way ... what were
>*you* doing when you were 11? I think I was playing with sticks or
>something ...

- --
This is the first mailing list I've been on where the person in charge of
the list actually spammed it. To be honest, there has been very little
spamming on this list (with the exception of a few unnecessarily long
signatures) so I'm surprised to see it coming from the top. It doesn't even
matter whether or not little Max is a real person (and he's not) - messages
like this should not be sent to the list.

You should know better Kevin.

- --
Brian Dame
i n t e r w e b
http://www.iweb.net/~harold/

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 16:59:20 -0500
From: Kevin Travers <kwt@highfive.com>
Subject: Re: FWD: Make Max's Day

Brian,

Last time I checked, you are not in a position to be scolding anyone
publically on this list. If you have issues you would like to discuss,
mail me privately. I went to great lengths to investigate that website
before I posted about it. It also came from a reliable source. If it was
a scam, oh well. Chill out. You have caused more noise complaining than I
ever did posting. And I have very specific reasons for posting this
message as well.

I expect your whining about the topic to end ... Brian.

>--
>This is the first mailing list I've been on where the person in charge of
>the list actually spammed it. To be honest, there has been very little
>spamming on this list (with the exception of a few unnecessarily long
>signatures) so I'm surprised to see it coming from the top. It doesn't even
>matter whether or not little Max is a real person (and he's not) - messages
>like this should not be sent to the list.
>
>You should know better Kevin.
>
>--
>Brian Dame
>i n t e r w e b
>http://www.iweb.net/~harold/

Kevin Travers
H I G H F I V E
http://www.highfive.com
kevin@highfive.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:13:28 -0500
From: Ryan Ferguson <signacct@signweb.com>
Subject: Re: FWD: Make Max's Day

>>You should know better Kevin.

Hmm... it was sorta funny... not really spam.

I'd have to disagree.

Ryan Ferguson
signacct@signweb.com

Visit SignWeb, your one-stop resource for the signage industry!
- ----------------------------------
* http://www.signweb.com *
- ----------------------------------
// Searchable Sign Database // Message Boards //
// Industry Resources // OEMs //
// Suppliers // Vendors //
// Hot Products // Net News //
// Trade Schools // More...

- --> Other great ST On-Line publications:
ScreenWeb... * http://www.screenweb.com *
VisualStore... * http://www.visualstore.com *
Big Picture... * http://www.bigpicture.net *

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:10:41 -0600
From: Darrel Austin <daustin@isd.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Bill Gates site (or: What matters)

>>Most people have no idea what good design is...they couldn't describe what
>>makes something well designed. BUT they can always tell you when something
>>is designed better than the other...

>Anyway, who said the site isn't "well designed?" Just 'cuz it won't win a
>High Five award? Who cares. My clients don't care about awards, they want
>results.

I in no way was implying that your site WASN'T well designed. Besides, good
design = results.

>>As a designer, if you feel there are improvements that can be made to her
>>site, then there probably are. She doesn't think it can be better because
>>she hasn't SEEN a better version...

>She HAS seen better versions, "better" being defined as more "designed"
>sites.

Well here's the problem: 'more designed' does NOT = 'better'. I don't think
'more designed' is the correct term here, though I realized it is often
used. A better description would be 'excess visual complexity' or 'needless
eye candy' or 'excess style with insufficient concept'. You really can't
over-design...but you can add excess information/style.

>She's of the "if it ain't broke, why fix it" school -- it's
>producing great results that exceed her projections, and her visitors keep
>returning.

>As for if I MYSELF think improvements could be made, that really doesn't
>matter.

Sure it does. In your situation, she's happy...and that is great. You
created a good site, and she saw results. However, my point was that if you
think it could be better, than it probably can be improved. Whether or not
you decide to pursue her for more work, well, that's a business decision.

>This is a BIG HUGE misconception on the point of many (maybe the
>majority) of designers out there. If you want a site that fulfills all your
>personal needs and wants, design your own site.

These people aren't designers, then. A designer puts the clients needs
before their personal needs. An artist creates for themselves. A designer
creates for clients.

I think you are alluding to this. The client's needs/final results are a
very integral part of overall good design.

>When you're designing for a
>client, you need to look at things from:
>
> A) The website visitor's point of view
> B) The client's point of view
> C) Your point of view

Personally, I'd scratch C altogether. Your point of view is merely adding
all of your years of training, expertise, and visual talents to A and B.

>These are my opinions, of course, and you may disagree with them. All I
>know is it works for me, and I'm still personally fulfilled. I get more of
>a charge out of seeing a client get successful results from one of my
>designs than making each site my own personal precious little work of art.

I agree. And with the above statement, you are saying that you are doing
things right. I just wanted to clear up the fact that 'design' INCLUDES all
of these factors. It just isn't the visual 'icing' applied to the clients
content.

- -Darrel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:05:01 -0500
From: Porter Glendinning <pglendinning@cen.com>
Subject: TECH: Swap any number of frames with one JS function

By popular demand, I've posted an example of that JS function I mentioned
earlier today that lets you swap the contents of any number of frames from
one link, using the same JS function for every link.

I haven't thoroughly tested it for platform compatibility, but it works for
NS3+ on WinNT and Mac. It doesn't work for IE3 in WinNT, but I'm not sure
about 4. (IE3 doesn't have the split() method defined for strings, and I
don't know if it's been implemented in 4. When I get a chance I'm going to
write my own split function and see if I can't make this fully 3.0-Browser
compatible.)

It's in my Workshop if you want to take a look:
http://www.serve.com/apg/workshop/

- - Porter

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Porter Glendinning pglendinning@cen.com
WWW Developer http://www.serve.com/apg/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:32:08 +1000
From: Lynn Warneke <Lynn.Warneke@penguin.com.au>
Subject: Browser detect javascript

Hi all,

the only javascript I can manage is that which you copy faithfully,
slavishly and cluelessly from other sources (with permission of course).

So could some kind soul take pity on a script novice and tell me why
(if?) the following browser detection code seems to prevent mouseovers
working in IE 4.0 on the Mac. They work fine with Navigator 4.01 and IE
4.0 on the PC. Haven't got any versions of Navigator on the Mac so I
don't know about that. Apologies for making my first post such a basic
and boring question.

Thanks,

Elynnor
lynn.warneke@penguin.com.au

browser = (((navigator.appName == "Netscape") &&
(parseInt(navigator.appVersion) >= 3 )) || ((navigator.appName ==
"Microsoft Internet Explorer") && (parseInt(navigator.appVersion) >= 4
)))

if ( browser) {
normal = new MakeArray(8)
over = new MakeArray(8)
blurb = new MakeArray(9)

.....etc.....
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:24:14 -0500
From: Max Gasner <mgasner@ramblings.com>
Subject: Re: the "duel part deux" .. cause we can ...

Matt Newell wrote:

> ive always wondered where on earth *directly* directly below my feet
> were.
>
> for ex. if i stood in the middle of dallas texas.. what would be on
> the
> exact other side of the world. what town, state, country, etc?
>
> why do i care about such a thing... well. i like to amuse people with
> things like this, and it would be hella cool to come up with a
> javascript
> to pick any (or almost any) coordinates/towns/etc and find out what
> was on
> the other side of the planet from that given place.

Shouldn't be hard--match placenames against tables of latitude and
longitude, then calculate the point on the other side of the earth, then
match latitude and longitude to placenames again...

Max Gasner
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ramblings internet webzine - politics, current events, and the world at
large
http://www.ramblings.com/
mailto:mgasner@ramblings.com

Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of
liberty.
--Thomas Jefferson

This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no
power.
--Herodotus

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:30:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Newell <matt@ns.qnis.net>
Subject: Re: the "duel part deux" .. cause we can ...

i dunno/remember if he posted this to the list of not.

http://www.serve.com/apg/babble/otherSide.html

another wonder by porter the hava scripting mack daddy.

i had an idea "how" to do it, thats why it was a duel, if anyone cared to
actually "do" it.

i thank you all for your interest though.

-- jEsTeR

www.sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
jester@sweetillusions.org
== ================================= === ==
whatever is not nailed down is mine;
what i can pry loose, is not nailed down

On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Max Gasner wrote:

> Matt Newell wrote:
>
> > ive always wondered where on earth *directly* directly below my feet
> > were.
> >
> > for ex. if i stood in the middle of dallas texas.. what would be on
> > the
> > exact other side of the world. what town, state, country, etc?
> >
> > why do i care about such a thing... well. i like to amuse people with
> > things like this, and it would be hella cool to come up with a
> > javascript
> > to pick any (or almost any) coordinates/towns/etc and find out what
> > was on
> > the other side of the planet from that given place.
>
> Shouldn't be hard--match placenames against tables of latitude and
> longitude, then calculate the point on the other side of the earth, then
> match latitude and longitude to placenames again...
>
> Max Gasner
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ramblings internet webzine - politics, current events, and the world at
> large
> http://www.ramblings.com/
> mailto:mgasner@ramblings.com
>
> Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of
> liberty.
> --Thomas Jefferson
>
> This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no
> power.
> --Herodotus
>
>
> ..H5 Babble Design List Info: http://www.highfive.com/h5/babble.html
> ..To unsubscribe, send the following one line to majordomo@highfive.com:
> ."unsubscribe (babble or babble-digest) (e-mail address)"
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:34:12 +1000
From: Caleb Fuller <email@calebfuller.com>
Subject: Web Servers

As far as web servers go,
I have found Hiway (www.hway.net) fairly good - $25 a month for 20MB, 6 POP
accounts, and of course your own domain. They have more expensive plans for
larger sites too, and you can resell the space and so on, which is good if you
are developing for clients who want hosting as part of the deal, but you don't
wan't to run your own server. They have lots of clients and lots of hardware.
I also saw an ad on www.macintouch.com for a company charging $40 a month (own
domain and so on) for 200MB, which is pretty huge! If you have a huge site
then they seem the best value. Can't remember the name though...

Caleb Fuller
analog creations | digital media
email@calebfuller.com
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:45:02 -0500
From: Tari Akpodiete <tari@sympatico.ca>
Subject: another bug (JS) in NS4.04/Win95...

According to C|NET's News.com site, there is a bug in the latest version
of Netscape.

"Netscape Communications (NSCP) executives today
confirmed the existence of a JavaScript bug in
Navigator 4.04 that could strand unsuspecting Web
surfers without a toolbar or even a window.

Netscape's senior security product manager, David
Andrews, conceded that a malicious Webmaster
could use the bug to create a denial of service attack,
but he characterized the threat as a "really
minor...nuisance attack."

The article can be found at:

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,18303,00.html

This bug was discovered by Patrick Morris-Suzuki in Netscape 4.04
running under Windows95. His site, with details, can be found at:

http://www.morris-suzuki.com/JavaScript_bug.html

- --
...Webmaster Training Coordinator at Digital Media Studios......
...http://www.h-plus-a.com/dms-itdc/studios/studiow.htm.........
...Creator of The Web Publishing Resource Guide (aka TheWPRG)...
...on America Online - http://members.aol.com/thewprg/ .........
...ICQ Internet Pager - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2131290 .......
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:20:57 -0500
From: Lisa Gade <java@dreadscott.com>
Subject: Re: Web Servers

I second the motion for Hiway.net (www.hyway.net). I just switched one
of my clients over to them a few months ago (the $50/month plan, since
they needed on-line transaction support) and we've all been very happy.
Their tech support is fast, as is sales- for pop account add-ons and
etc.. Quite cheap, but they're a fairly large operation and reliable.
Their setup fees are small too.
A second hosting service is www.your-site.com. I actually use them for
my own site- also $20/month with about the same amount of bells n'
whistles as hyway. Laid back, friendly and reliable, but a small
outfit. The server is very fast- in part because they host relatively
few folks.

Lisa G
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:32:25 -0800
From: "Michael Liu" <mliu@compellingimages.com>
Subject: Re: the "duel part deux" .. cause we can ...

> ive always wondered where on earth *directly* directly below my feet
> were.
>
> for ex. if i stood in the middle of dallas texas.. what would be on
> the exact other side of the world. what town, state, country, etc?

Well, for addresses in the continental United States (CONUS), you could
always cheat and just tell 'em that the Indian Ocean is "*directly*
directly" below their feet. Cuz unless I'm mistaken, that's all that's on
the other side. :P

Good luck in your quest,

Michael Liu
(Feet firmly planted *directly* directly above the Indian Ocean.)
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:44:26 -0600
From: Jarod Belshaw <jbelshaw@interaccess.com>
Subject: Re: babble-digest V1 #150

Heya,
I've been lurking for a while, just gathering info and ideas. I
have a site that I'm designing for a client and I would like to use
rollovers - in combination with an image map that would appear for each
one... The rollovers are no problem, but I'm having a little trouble
with the image map part. Any Ideas?

Jarod Belshaw
jbelshaw@interaccess.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:27:35 -0500
From: Aaron Christy <christy.18@osu.edu>
Subject: Re:Make Max's Day

>>Max is 11 years old and lives down stairs from me. He is a quiet
>>reserved kid who, just formed his own web page, but is now upset because
>>no one has visited it. It is nothing spectacular, but it is a heck of a
>>lot better than what I could do. The page has a counter, a guest book
>>and a chat room, which he checks almost daily.
>>
>>Could you please take a moment to visit it and then send the address
>>along to some one else. The look on his face would be worth it. Thanks
>>so much, & lets have some fun with this. At this time, there have been
>>only six visits to the sight..

Max probably is also quite sickly and his dying wish is to break 500 hits
along with making thousands of dollars (while only investing $5.00) and
warning people about the Good Times virus. Sorry, don't mean to sound
harsh, but this request seems too sappy and strung out to be completely
believable. Oh, well....I can at least say two positive things : 1) At
least he's not trying to sell me something (it's only a site visit) and
2) If Max is thinking these schemes up on his own, by the time he's 25
he'll be well on his way to finding success in a marketing career.

Fa.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------
Aaron Christy
a lowly OSU student in desperate need of a large salary

http://jujubee.cob.ohio-state.edu/~christy
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:06:33 -0800
From: Ben Curtis <quixote@wenet.net>
Subject: Re: rollover-to-image map

<snip>
> I would like to use
> rollovers - in combination with an image map that would appear for each
> one...
</snip>

Netscape 3+ and IE 4 all handle the <AREA> tag defined in an image map as part
of the document.links array, and thus you can use JavaScript to rewrite any
link property, such as href. With IE3, you're out of luck, but it can't swap
the images anyway. The problem is that you cannot change the image map
coordinates in any browser, and so you must create backing images that use the
same hotspots for each new image map.

I'm a firm believer in the adage that you can't bug-hunt if you can't build.
Porter's demonstrations are brilliant and much appreciated, but I hope people
are inspired by them, rather than copying them. That said, I challenge you to
fill in the details to make this simple script work in the big way you want:

function newMap(newtarget)
{ if (document.images)
{ document.images['MapImage'].src = "images/" + newtarget + ".gif";
document.links['John'].href = newtarget + "/john.html";
document.links['Paul'].href = newtarget + "/paul.html";
document.links['George'].href = newtarget + "/george.html";
document.links['Ringo'].href = newtarget + "/ringo.html";
}
else alert('Dad gum it, you need a better browser.');
}

.
.
.

...onMousover="newMap('history');status='Beatle\'s history';return true;"

~~
__________qp_______________________________________________________

Ben Curtis "A thought
once put to words,
mailto:quixote@wenet.net loses its true essence.
http://www.wenet.net/~quixote But what else can we do?"
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------------------------------

End of babble-digest V1 #151
****************************

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