[here, the meeting more or less was officially started]

[BUGManMike] so, did you make any contacts at the DC that will help with what you want to work on?

[BUGManMike] so, since you are the group so far tonight, anything you want to talk about? :)

[AndyHeck] I said (which you may not have read before being netsplit) that I'm telling Amiga people about the BeOS.

[AndyHeck] #amichat

[BUGManMike] it seems a lot of amiga folk are coming over to the beos

[AndyHeck] Any contacts that will help me program? Probably not at this stage. I have to learn the rudiments: get some kind of program up and running in Be before they can take me to the next step with their advanced tips beyond the Be Book, I suppose.

[BUGManMike] how far do you think you are from that?

[AndyHeck] 3 months tops. I'll finish all of the Be Book or (at 3 months time) go into seclusion until I do finish.

[Mel] Hi, y'all!

[BUGManMike] now you look like yourself!

[BUGManMike] todd: welcome back!

[podbot] Geezis. I see the party crowd is still here.

[BUGManMike] small, but dedicated!

[Mel] What's the buzz?

[BUGManMike] Everyone, allow me to introduce Be's Web Maven Melanie, if you have not had the pleasure of meeting here already

*** Mel is now known as Guest15254

[podbot] thanks.

[Guest15254] What's the scoop?

[BUGManMike] mel has now had her nick changed because she ignored the name server :)

[podbot] Hi Melanie...

*** Guest15254 is now known as Mel2

[Mel2] Hi podbot!

[BUGManMike] Well the three of us had a good conversation going earlier, until pb had to commute home. he is just now rejoining us

[Mel2] What's the topic?

[BUGManMike] other than that, we had a confused person from the UK wanting to talk about cars

[grin]

[Mel2] What's on the agenda for your first meeting?

[podbot] I wondered about that UK person.

[BUGManMike] First, get to know each other. We all mingled earlier. Check

[BUGManMike] Second, talk about why we are interested in the beos

[BUGManMike] that's pretty much where we are now!

[Mel2] And what's the consensus on why we're using the BeOS?

[AndyHeck] I'm back

[podbot] I'm trying to convince a friend in Utica to get into the Be. He is really hot on getting into it...but I think his current machine isn't up to snuff (some horrid 486 variant). Plus, I can't exactly demo it when he's in NY and I'm in MN.

[Mel2] (Hi, Andy! NIce to see you again!)

[podbot] Why? Because it's a better alternative.

[BUGManMike] My next trip upstate, maybe he can meet me in Binghamton?

[BUGManMike] todd was talking specifically about the possibilities for working with audio

[podbot] Possibly. I'll let him know about the chat..

[podbot] Yep. Most of what I see are either specialized MIDI sequencers or software packages that handle audio, but in limited and traditional ways..

[podbot] My idea is that emulating the look and feel of a mixing console is sort of counter-productive. All that power to waste.

[BUGManMike] Personally, i like the fact that everything about the beos - for example, apps - is wide open. we are seeing new ways of doing things and doing things we've never seen

[podbot] So I have ideas for new interfaces.

[Mel2] We're writing UI Guidelines for the OS

[BUGManMike] podbot: i agree that it can be counter productive to get bogged down in traditional views of interfaces

[podbot] Yup. Exactly. New ways and unknown things.

[BUGManMike] mel: that is great to hear. any timeframe?

[AndyHeck] Yeah, hi Mel. I was preaching to Amiga people at #amichat

[Mel2] We're talking about releasing it peacemeal, but I suspect we'll see something in the next few months --Jue?

[Mel2] june.

[podbot] I was an ex-Amigaphile. Well, I still have two 1000s. I keep them for nostalgic reasons. But their time has sort of passed. It's hard to kick an OS when it's down, even if Gateway did buy them out.

[BUGManMike] kind of like how newspapers feel that have to use a newspaper format when settting up a website. yes it is familiar, but it ignores options and possibilities available in the different medium

[BUGManMike] my second computer was an Atari 130xe. first was a timex sinclair 1000

[Mel2] It's a tricky balance between familiarty, which breeds ease of use, and innovation.

[BUGManMike] mel: exactly

[AndyHeck] At the conference, some guy got upset, because he says Be's been planning on releasing UI guidelines for over a year and nothing's been released yet. The Be employee who answered that made everyone laugh when he said they'd consider releasing the parts they have finished, even if they refer to chapters they haven't written yet.

[podbot] I also see interfaces that Kai Krause does for his Mac apps and like the look, but the feel is so bogged-down and sluggish. There's got to be a way to have form and function without losing functionality.

[BUGManMike] andy: just change the reference to read" see chapter four sometime in august"

[AndyHeck] Hey, tell me about the Timex Sinclair. Be has an enumerated constant for that platform. I've never heard about it.

[BUGManMike] andy: i'll send u an email about it

[BUGManMike] a lot of interesting features on it :)

[podbot] I was a VIC20/C64/C128/Amiga person, oddly enough. Wrote for a piecemeal C-128 publication. Yikes.

[Mel2] There is a forum called be Beautiful for folks who like to talk about UI and the BeOS, too.

[BUGManMike] mel: does Be have any official "UI group" as of yet?

[Mel2] Yes. Peter Potrebic is the head, Robert Chinn, Ficus Kirkpatrick and others.

[AndyHeck] Mel, a forum on DALnet, or a newsgroup on UI? Or is Be Beautiful a website?

[BUGManMike] a mailing list, i believe?

[Mel2] It's a mailing list, actually.

[BUGManMike] andy: what did you find most impressive at the DC?

[Mel2] yes. i'd like to know, too!

[AndyHeck] Peter Potrebic is the guy that answered questions about scripting at the conference. He is thinking about the possibility of using Python scripting language to make the BeOS scriptable in general, outside of application-specific scripting.

[AndyHeck] Even if that's not related :-)

[podbot] Well, I'm going to bow out for a bit. It's actually dinnertime. But I'll be back in a while. Didn't think it would be ready so darn fast. Yow. Bye.

[BUGManMike] cya todd!

[AndyHeck] Chow.

[Mel2] bon apetit!

[BUGManMike] mel: which apps impressed the Be folks the most?

[AndyHeck] I definitely enjoyed general session 1, where they showed off the OS's power and new applications. Also, there were many good speakers in that session. The CEO from Intel was there, but he appeared to be a schmuck.

[Mel2] I think we were impressed with image elements, because it takes a new approach to a familiar task

[Mel2] Gobe's app, gobe productive, is also good for the OS because it is very robust.

[AndyHeck] I know that the gobe and Adamation presentations were VERY well received along with the session on BDirectWindow.

[BUGManMike] yes, i have been messing around with the gobe demo

[Mel2] we would really like to see more multimedia apps show up. we want games!

[BUGManMike] BDirectWindow itself sounds like a powerful piece of work!

[AndyHeck] Other than that, the nearly standing ovations went to speakers and people. No other software demonstrations got the same reaction as gobe, Adamation, and BDirectWindow.

[BUGManMike] games is an area i have a lot of interest in as well. programming games is what originally got me into computers

[Mel2] we have seen a lot of ports so far, but I think games development is such a long intensive process it may be a while before we see BeOS specific games.

[AndyHeck] You want games, you want games. Why don't you make some games! Be has a seeminly endless budget of secret, private funding. We all know that great games will sell the OS like no other method. Be should spawn a game development team to kick things off.

[BUGManMike] mel: i have a friend with close ties with iD, interplay etc. we plan to meet as soon as i get my user group package

[BUGManMike] the folks writing the low level drivers might get a tad jealous of the gaming division

[grin]

[BUGManMike] mel: he runs a pretty big gaming convention here in ny. a real hardcore gang

[BUGManMike] i'd like to do a be demo for them to get them salivating about the possibilities!

[AndyHeck] What user group package?

[Mel2] now the secret's out!

[BUGManMike] well it will have some R3 discs, i would think. other than that only the Be folks know

[AndyHeck] What secret?

[Mel2] never mind. :)

[BUGManMike] i have some pocket protectors from the last package that i will hand out when we have our first in person meeting! and other Be propaganda

[BUGManMike] mel: do you know if they were mailed yet or if they have to wait until after the developers

[AndyHeck] Melanie, when I was in CA, everyone seemed too cheerful. People aren't like that here on the East Coast. Since you live there, tell me: are you Californians all perpetually cheerful, or were there other factors that must've made it just seem so?

[Mel2] I don't know. I'll go ask Sylvie right now.

[BUGManMike] i've been holding off Intel based coworkers who see the BeOS running on my mac everyday!

[BUGManMike] thanks mel!

[BUGManMike] andy: it could have been all the adrenalin surging through them!

[Mel2] there's a lot of that these days.

[AndyHeck] Through the Californians or the coworkers?

[BUGManMike] the Californians

[BUGManMike] although i will admite running into the same cheerful attitude last fall when i travelled through Cali

[BUGManMike] i think caffeinne mostly runs through my coworkers

[BUGManMike] mel: for the past two weeks i've been rushing home to check the mailbox. i feel like charlie brown waiting to get Valentines

[grin]

[AndyHeck] Is she still checking with Sylvie?

[Mel2] mike: Sylvie says kits will go out when we get R3 CD's. We're out.

[BUGManMike] as charlie brown would say, *rats*

[BUGManMike] thanks mel

[Mel2] no problemo!

[AndyHeck] So, a kit is composed of various trinkets that say Be on them?

[BUGManMike] traditionally, yes.

[BUGManMike] you know, propaganda

[Mel2] Actually it's full of BeOS Software and a handbook on running a User Group.

[BUGManMike] That too!

[Mel2] We don't really have a lot of trinkets contrary to popular belief. Just those tee shirts.

[BUGManMike] i have been studying the demo script, and have given quite a few demos here at work with pr2

[Mel2] bravo! * BUGManMike takes a bow

[AndyHeck] Is there any psychology involved in the handbook on running a user group?

[BUGManMike] there are some tips and things along that line

[Mel2] Always. How to brainwash the masses, etc.

[BUGManMike] mel: i posted an email to the beusergroup mailing list, but for some reason it didn't go through in time

[BUGManMike] various methods of hypnosis...

[Mel2] Mike: We have had an overload of mail to the online lists this week.

[Mel2] Andy: what's your interest in the beOS?

[BUGManMike] i would think so. thanks for the suggestion though. next time i will do it at least a day in advance

[AndyHeck] My interest in the BeOS is to make educational software.

[Mel2] Hooray! We are meeting this week to discuss an educational program.

[BUGManMike] to bring mel up to speed, i also have a background in educational games/software

[AndyHeck] The people I've been preaching to about the BeOS are getting rammy. They want to join in this discussion. Should I give them the okay?

[BUGManMike] and would be glad to contribute to that discussion in any way!

[Mel2] Mike & Andy: Do you usually use some kind of authorware to create your apps?

[AndyHeck] No, I first have to learn to program the OS. Then we'll talk turkey.

[BUGManMike] mel: i've usually worked in more of a product advisory capacity

[AndyHeck] All I've got is what came on the CD.

[Mel2] Just checking. We've got some interesting presentation/CBT software on the horizon from a company called mediapede.

[BUGManMike] if they need any beta testers, let me know

[AndyHeck] So, should I tell them to join #vwbug? These are Amiga fans, who probably have questions about how Amiga is involved with Be, because they read something about that. Pios seems to be part of the missing link.

[BUGManMike] i have a lot of QA experience in that area

[Mel2] in pios?

[BUGManMike] andy: are they in the ny area? :)

[BUGManMike] mel: no, in educational software

[Mel2] ah.

[BUGManMike] and development

[AndyHeck] They are from uk and sweden.

[Mel2] you know it!

[AndyHeck] Alright, since there's no objections, I'll open the doors.

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[BUGManMike] what sort of educational program is be discussing

[Serpent] hello

[BUGManMike] welcome serpent

[Serpent] nice to meet you all

[AndyHeck] The one I have been talking to, Serpent, has just been preaching now to one of his friends. It's a chain reaction!

[Mel2] mike: educational pricing for the BeOS and related software, maybe some kind of package for schools and universities.

[AndyHeck] Serpent, Melanie is the Web Diva at Be, and BUGManMike is the president of this user group.

[Serpent] hehe... im so impressed with the specifications that I had to..

[Mel2] greetings!

[BUGManMike] mel:that makes sense. hook them in the schools, then they will want it at home.

[Serpent] thanks andy * Serpent 's real name is Stuart btw

[AndyHeck] Yeah, that's what I said a while ago.

[BUGManMike] where in the UK are you from stuart?

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[BUGManMike] welcome Mojo

[MojoUK] evenin

[AndyHeck] MojoUK is the person Stuart was telling about Be.

[AndyHeck] Welcome.

[MojoUK] yeah tiz i :)

[BUGManMike] be sure to check out www.be.com for lots of info!

[MojoUK] just reading the development pages * Serpent is from sheffield UK

[MojoUK] vaguly remember something about it from ages ago when i was using my amiga * MojoUK is in sheffield uk as well :)

[Mel2] Hi, John!

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[BUGManMike] andy: what do you see as limitations with today's traditional educational software?

[jibe] hi. sorry for being late.

*** jibe is now known as _jibe_

[BUGManMike] Jibe, no problem. Andy here is a member of the BUG and Mel is Be's web diva

[Mel2] What's you line, Jibe?

[BUGManMike] Jibe, i cannot remember -- did you go to the DC?

[_jibe_] nope

[Serpent] Im impressed with the features of the OS, I come from an amiga background too and heard of this a long time ago...

[AndyHeck] It is less informative than a textbook, has poor interfaces, and is boring. That's what I have against educational software available now.

[BUGManMike] serpent: a lot of Be fans came from the Amiga OS

[Serpent] hello jibe

[BUGManMike] Jibe - what's your interest in the BeOS

[AndyHeck] I went to the DC, Jibe.

[AndyHeck] I liked it, too.

[MojoUK] bug: the overview makes it sound more like the amiga workbench style of doing things, seperating tasks and assigning prioritys rather than windows which gives cpu tasks to screens you cant see etc

[BUGManMike] mojo: yes, that certainly is the idea

[MojoUK] bug: good :)

[_jibe_] well as for my background. i'm a unix person. i use win95/nt/novell at work.

[BUGManMike] jibe: are you a registered developer?

[AndyHeck] My background is just DOS programming in C and C++.

[_jibe_] one of my closest friend is one of the earliest Be developers (he has the prototype #8 of the bebox!)... so i am quite familiar with the os

[AndyHeck] I have tinkered with UNIX shell programming too.

[_jibe_] bugman : yep. i'm waiting for the intel release CD.

[AndyHeck] Who is your friend?

[AndyHeck] And is he still with Be?

[BUGManMike] jibe: i know the feeling!

[AndyHeck] Jibe, are you a registered developer?

[_jibe_] his name is Benoit. he did not work with be. he's working for Beatware, though

[_jibe_] andy :yes!

[BUGManMike] mel: has the ordering of the Intel version been overwhelming?

[Mel2] yes. We have received over 2000 order so far.

[AndyHeck] What number are you? I'm Be Developer 9969.

[Mel2] On the subject of the Dev Program: the developer program is currently free, but that may not always be the case. If you're even a teensy bit curious about the BeOS, I encourage you all to sign up now.

[MojoUK] my back ground is bbc/acorn basic, atari st -st basic, pascal, s.t.o.s, Amiga - amiga basic, C, AMOS, AMOS Pro (bbs doors/telecoms rubbish), PC, Visual basic, C++, Pascal

[BUGManMike] mel: good deal!

[Mel2] mike: thanks!

[MojoUK] mel: good idea :)

[AndyHeck] Is that really overwhelming? Didn't 12,000 CD-Rs of PR3 get burned and sent out before the conference?

[Mel2] we have over 6,000 registered developers.

[_jibe_] #9811

[Mel2] (likely because the developer program is free!)

[BUGManMike] mel: i think a lot of possibilities exist in the area of education in combination with the relay technology beatware was showing off

[Mel2] i missed that demo. schmoozing. tell us more.

[BUGManMike] did you catch that one andy? * Serpent is a java and C++ developer, im currently researching intelligent agent design and implementation at sheffield hallam university for my final year degree in software engineering. * Serpent also has a lot of corporate intranet/firewall experience using unix and MS windows

[BUGManMike] Relay allows many users to work with a common file from different locations by sending just BMessages over a network. by sending only BMessages, transmission time is kept to about one second, allowing for near simultaneous updates

[Mel2] cool.

[BUGManMike] very! incredible inplications for networked games as well

[BUGManMike] oops implications

[AndyHeck] Let me clarify the misnomer of "registered developers." "Technically," Be has over 10,000 registered developers, but with each new release, they ask everyone to update their information, such as telephone numbers, email addresses, and the like. If no information has changed and no corrections are needed, developers are asked to click a checkbox or something to show that the info is current. The developers that don't go through this proces

[Mel2] -- get axed. We just culled the goldbrickers.

[Mel2] Now we've got a streamlined 6000.

[Serpent] how does BeOS cater for intruder security issues like passwording and authentication, is this part of the "internet ready package?"

[BUGManMike] so, for example, several children from schools around the world could collaborate realtime on a document, image, or anything

[_jibe_] well i signed up about a month ago, when the date of the intel release became more clear...

[Mel2] good job, jibe!

[Mel2] mike: I will follow up more with BW about this.

[BUGManMike] mel: they explain it pretty well in their press release

[Mel2] mike: I'll check it out. regarding security: good topic for our BeDevTalk mailing list, I bet

[BUGManMike] mel: imagine something like an AIDS quilt project -- each school working together on a square which in turn is part of a worldwide quilt that can be updated in realtime from anywhere using Be / Relay

[Mel2] mike: lots of possibilities.

[BUGManMike] the gaming implications are pretty good too: by having to pass only quick Bmessages instead of a bunch of information about local environment, games can reduce "lag" - the enemy of gaming over the internet

[AndyHeck] When they were presenting during the first general session, they said they had like 5 programs to show and 10 minutes to show them in, so they couldn't show everything. There was no demonstration of the instantly responding teleconference software, but they did mention it, and briefly explained what it is.

[_jibe_] does anyone know what partition type BeOS uses for its partitions on intel?

[_jibe_] (i wanna know if i have to modify linux's fdisk to create BeOS partitions...)

[BUGManMike] i believe andy has a successful installation running there..

[AndyHeck] The Be File System "bfs"

[AndyHeck] Yes you do.

[AndyHeck] There's a number value in the two hundreds, like 263 (guessing) that represents the Be file system, so that maybe you can just type in that number and your partition software will be able to do it. Mine couldn't. Be comes with partition software.

[Mel2] Partition Magic from PowerQuest

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[BUGManMike] andy: how is your Be intel installation running?

[_jibe_] hmm.

[_jibe_] i believe it's using system commander as well, right?

[AndyHeck] The company Power Quest makes the software, called Partition Magic. It only allows for 4 partitions on a fixed disk, so it's far from a full package. Sometime in the future we should be able to buy a fully featured partition/drive setup program from PQ for the BeOS.

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[MojoUK2] :(

[_jibe_] does system commander need a small partition of its own (like the OS/2 boot manager) or does it fit on the master boot record?

[AndyHeck] Who are you asking?

[_jibe_] anyone who can answer ;-)

[AndyHeck] BUGManMike, my installation is fine. I got it working as soon as I got the new video card.

[MojoUK2] it cut me off :/ hehe

[BUGManMike] haven't gotten that close a look at it yet jibe

[AndyHeck] The only problem is the lack of 3rd party software and drivers, such as the driver I need for my Ethernet card so I can use my cable modem. Until then, I'm stuck connecting to the Internet through Windows95.

[AndyHeck] I don't know about system commander.

[_jibe_] who has beos/intel installed and can tell me then? (if anyone here...) * Serpent has a Pentium II and Matrox Millenium II 8Mb, ive seen that BeOS has been tested with this setup, does BeOS give a graphics performance advantage over windows in all areas?

[AndyHeck] The way I make my system boot either Be or Win is that in Be, I choose the Be partition I want to start up (I have 2 Be partitions) and when I want to boot Win, I pop in my Win boot disk during boot time. If I know I'm going to be restarting Win a few times, before using Be again, I use fdisk to change my Win partition to be the active partition, so the computer boots there instead of Be, getting rid of the need for a floppy. But then I ne

[Mel2] We'll have those comparisons up on the web site soon, actually.

[Mel2] (regarding performance acreoo platforms.)

[BUGManMike] scott hacker had some good tips about configuring bootups

[AndyHeck] Serpent, what's the weather like, by you?

[BUGManMike] mel: cool, that will be exciting, no doubt!

[Mel2] Sirs, I have to get back to the old grind. Newsletter's out tomorrow. I've gotta HTML-ize it and get the new BeWare rolled in. Thanks!

[AndyHeck] And I can read about it where?

[_jibe_] well anyway i want to use LILO instead of system commander..

[BUGManMike] Thanks for coming Mel!

[MojoUK2] weather by serpent is dull and cold, i'm jsut down the road :)

[BUGManMike] Say hi to the Be folks for us

[Serpent] sorry _jibe_ not me.. im here to find out as much as I can ;]

[AndyHeck] Well, thanks for your time, Melanie. It was great having you here.

[AndyHeck] Byeee.

[Mel2] Thanks to you all! Will do! Likewise!

[Mel2] (smooch!)

[AndyHeck] Hey, watch it. * BUGManMike faints at Mel's smooch

[AndyHeck] Get a room.

[BUGManMike] this is a room! ;)

[AndyHeck] :-)

[Mel2] (how do i leave?)

[BUGManMike] mel: you can just shut down the irc client!

[AndyHeck] Little round button on the computer.

[Mel2] OK! Thanks, Andy! See ya at the next meeting!

*** Mel2 (~Melanie@milou.be.com) has left #vwbug

[AndyHeck] Why doesn't anyone at Be EVER shut off their computers?

[AndyHeck] Bye!

[Serpent] excellent, the more people see of the OS i think, the better.. the ones that will understand the specifications will be the ones that sell it for you, in a similar way to the amiga was sold due to workbench at the time..

[BUGManMike] one of the mysteries of the universe!

[AndyHeck] Hmm.

[BUGManMike] serpent: there are some usergroups in the UK..check the usergroup page at www.be.com and see if there is someone close by..i am sure they would love to give a demo

[Serpent] Its dark at the moment Andy! not much i can see outside ;]

[Serpent] thanks mel2

[Serpent] or /quit usually works best ;]

[BUGManMike] Ok all, I am going to have to get going. you are of course free to talk amongst yourselves! Before I go, Andy and Jibe, let me ask you...

[AndyHeck] Serpent/jibe, is it snowing?

[_jibe_] when did they said they sent out their CD to developers?

[_jibe_] (i m kinda impatient to receive it ;-)

[_jibe_] andy : not here

[BUGManMike] do you think we should work on setting up an in-person meeting or try for a better publicized IRC chat first to organize the BUG members?

[Serpent] perhaps its because its stable enough to leave on?

[Serpent] hehe

[_jibe_] hey andy, where are you? i'm in edison.

[Serpent] id love to see a demo..

[AndyHeck] I'm in NJ, USA * Serpent checks the user groups section...

[_jibe_] bugman: i think i'll go in person to the other BUG that's closest to me (FlemingBUG)

[_jibe_] andy: i know that ... where in NJ !

[AndyHeck] Be sent me an R3 CD 2 weeks ago Thursday.

[AndyHeck] Oh, I thought you were one of the people from the UK. I'm in Delran, NJ, which is 30 min from Cherry Hill.

[AndyHeck] Also, 30 min from Philadelphia.

[AndyHeck] Mike P., until we get more members, lets stay chat room only.

[BUGManMike] jibe. ok. i will let you know of the next virtual meeting we set up, hopefully with a few more local folks!

[BUGManMike] i agree andy.

[Serpent] Uk groups are in : North devon. cambridge

[AndyHeck] I don't think we should arrange a meeting in the flesh until we have at least 6 people.

[Serpent] for any uk listeners

[MojoUK2] serpent: no sheffield ? :))

[BUGManMike] ok everyone, thanks for coming and talking about Be! watch your email and and the web page for any BUG happenings.

*** MojoUK2 is now known as MojoUK

[Serpent] is it simple enough to install in its current state

[Serpent] ?

[AndyHeck] Just you two :-)

[AndyHeck] Yeah.

[Serpent] (for intel platform)

[MojoUK] ;)

[BUGManMike] serpent: yes. full install in under 13 minutes. including setting up the ftp, telnet and web server!

[AndyHeck] First, is anyone else leaving soon?

[AndyHeck] Or can you all stick around for awhile?

[AndyHeck] (Just wondering) * _jibe_ can stay here for a while.

[_jibe_] i'd rather reboot under linux, though (i'm running win95 now...)

[MojoUK] thanks for letting serpent and myself in on your meeting btw now we can use the ideas in serpent-mojo-OS comming soon to a spectrum ZX near you :)

[BUGManMike] Good night everyone!

[AndyHeck] Adding the optional components (movie files) to the installation increases time a few minutes.

*** BUGManMike (~glorybe@204.178.221.61) has left #vwbug (#vwbug)

[_jibe_] hmm

[Serpent] no sheffield ug at the moment ;]

[_jibe_] does the X server work on intel?

[AndyHeck] Good night Mike

[Serpent] great stuff ..

[Serpent] i can stick around for an hour at most.. its 2am here

[Serpent] :}

[AndyHeck] (Mike has to log off of Mike2 as well before he's really gone.)

[Serpent] dont joke like that Mojo ;]

[AndyHeck] Wow, pretty late compared to here, where it's 9:04 PM

[_jibe_] well what are everyone's plan as for development on beos? any projects yet?

[AndyHeck] What's this about a mojo-serpent OS?

[MojoUK] serpent: why? you really writing some 2bit speccy software or something ? :)

[Serpent] hehe bye mike ;]

[MojoUK] andyheck: was joking, do you remember the spectrum computer ?

[MojoUK] sinclair spectrum :)

[AndyHeck] My plans are to make educational software that kicks ass and competes directly with top games on the market for fun value, while still being the most effective way to learn subjects, such as math, chem, bio, C++, etc. If it doesn't work out, I can be a great game programmer.

[Serpent] :/

[AndyHeck] I say great game programmer, because who would want to be a lousy one? :-)

[_jibe_] anyone else?

[AndyHeck] No, I've never heard of the spectrum.

[AndyHeck] Do tell all there is to know about the sinclair spectrum.

[MojoUK] andy: ah early 80's computer which was terrible, well i mean it was amazing for its time but now its terrible * Serpent plans to make intelligent applications along the lines of his current research project, and hopefully a Java programming environment

[MojoUK] 8 colors, programs on tape etc

[AndyHeck] Okay.

[MojoUK] was joking that we would write a new o/s for it :)

[AndyHeck] Serpent and Mojo, what are your real names again?

[MojoUK] it didnt have a gui or anything you just typed load "name" to run software from tape hehe

[podbot] Ah, what did I miss?

[AndyHeck] Was it used for digital video or music or what?

[MojoUK] andy heck: hehehehe

[AndyHeck] Todd, how long were you gone?

[AndyHeck] I'll tell you what you missed

[AndyHeck] Yeah, same to you.

[MojoUK] digital music: ? it was a 1 or 2 bit thing the odd beep if you were lucky :))

[podbot] Um, we had a slow dinner and watched this thing on the making of Titanic, no, they didn't have a copy of R3 hidden in the safe or anything.

[AndyHeck] Oh, you missed it all!

[AndyHeck] Melanie left, and then Mike left.

[podbot] Oh well. Yikes. I can always scroll back.

[AndyHeck] That brings you up to date. :-)

[AndyHeck] These guys are from UK. * Serpent is aka Stuart Tuck

[Serpent] stuart@spiralnebula.demon.co.uk

[AndyHeck] andyheck@bigfoot.com

[MojoUK] Simon "Mojo" Knock - mojo@knock.globalnet.co.uk

[podbot] crash@waste.org

[podbot] aka Todd Madson

[MojoUK] k

[AndyHeck] Stuart, what is your current research project that you intend to make programs involving?

[MojoUK] right i'm off

[MojoUK] been working all evenin :(

[MojoUK] see ya later ppl

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[_jibe_] not too many people left ;(

[AndyHeck] See, that's why I wanted to know who's leaving soon. I didn't get to ask Mojo what his development plans were.

[podbot] yoiks

[Serpent] Im currently researching intelligent agents using java. The idea of the project is to have personal assistant "agents" which work on your behalf to schedule a meeting with other participants, who also have a similar agent of their own.

[podbot] Eventually, the agents conspire to get you to make friends with your enemies and harmony is attained.

[AndyHeck] So is the target customer business people who need these things to schedule meetings?

[_jibe_] what about you, andy? any projects?

[Serpent] the project is a current research project for university, the idea is to cut down on information overload

[Serpent] and to let people get on with their work ;]

[AndyHeck] Jibe, what was your name and email again?

[_jibe_] Jean-Baptiste Nivoit

[jbnivoit@ix.netcom.com]

[_jibe_] sorry it's a French name, a little hard to pronounce for english native speakers ;-)

[AndyHeck] My plans, Jibe, are to make educational software for the BeOS that compete directly with top games available for fun factor. Only, I intend for my games to be highly educational at the same time.

[_jibe_] ok i c

[AndyHeck] Well, Jean-Louis Gassee is French, so I guess I'm getting used to it. There were 3 French interviewers there at the Be Developer Conference to interview Jean-Lois, and the interview took place all in French. I wish I knew what they were saying.

[_jibe_] i saw him a couple of times in france...

[Serpent] andy... any OS needs games to survive ;]

[Serpent] especially to show the real "power" of a system

[_jibe_] serpent: that is true.. (btw 'serpent' means snake in French ;-))

[AndyHeck] Serpent means snake in English too, doesn't it?

[_jibe_] there are two things people want : 1/ Games 2/ a productivity suite (word processor+ spreadsheet)

[_jibe_] andy : maybe :))

[Serpent] near enough ;]

[AndyHeck] 3. Money

[Serpent] serpent, its more of a "sea monster" type snake here ;]

[AndyHeck] Jean-Baptiste, are you a member of Fleming'BUG?

[AndyHeck] I've heard of those referred to as sea-serpents.

[AndyHeck] This is pointless, back to talking about Be..

[AndyHeck] I have been talking to Mike Russel of Fleming'BUG, to see if there are any meetings. None yet. Hi is closer to me than NY, which is where Mike Popovic is, from VW BUG.

[AndyHeck] Jean-Baptiste, do you have any plans for software development on the BeOS?

[Serpent] :]

[_jibe_] yep

[_jibe_] probably port a Scheme environment.

[_jibe_] and then i am currently writing my own (not functional yet..)

[AndyHeck] That doesn't mean anything to me. Please explain a scheme environment.

[_jibe_] then my main interest for now would be SGML/XML/DSSSL

[_jibe_] to make a document transformation engine...

[AndyHeck] Okay, you have put a ladder up to cross over my head. I know none of those acronyms. * Serpent is just registering ... ;]

[_jibe_] do you know about the 'scheme' language?

[_jibe_] sorry :))

[AndyHeck] Never heard of it. What platform?

[_jibe_] any

[_jibe_] it's a subset of Lisp, if you will

[AndyHeck] I've heard of lisp, but never seen any code or know what it's used for.

[_jibe_] and there is none ported to the beos yet, apparently.

[AndyHeck] Is this government work? The government uses these weird languages.

[_jibe_] it's used for a lot of AI research... (which i dont know that much about). and for symbolic computation

[_jibe_] nope.

[Serpent] lisp isnt that weird ;]

[_jibe_] (set! jibe-version "beos/intel/r3")

[_jibe_] for instance ;-) * Serpent 's university is involved with transforming Z software specifications into executable form using lisp.

[AndyHeck] It is not as well known as BASIC, Pascal, C, C++, Java, Motif, Perl, FORTRAN, Ada, etc

[_jibe_] yuck

[AndyHeck] to me, anyway.

[_jibe_] yet it's older than most of them..

[_jibe_] Motif aint a language ;)

[Serpent] motif... widget set?

[_jibe_] anyway. i've just begun to do that, and unfortunately i dont have as much time for myself as i would like...so it's going very slowly...

[_jibe_] yep

[Serpent] not language..?

[Serpent] hehe

[_jibe_] then another project would be to get an X server to run under the intel release.. * Serpent didnt see the question.. * Serpent would appreciate that ;]

[_jibe_] there is one running under beos/ppc, already.. * _jibe_ r u dead or what ? ;-)

[podbot] ahfun.

[Serpent] does beOS support a similar windowing system to X?

[Serpent] ie in that you can move the windows to different terminals

[_jibe_] i dont think so. although i was told that they could extend their system pretty easily to make it work remotely, like X

[AndyHeck] I remember being told that lisp was used for AI, now. Serpent, the question was what are Jean-Baptiste's plans for developing on the BeOS. He responded about lisp and with many acronyms and I didn't understand, and then he told me that Motif isn't a language.

[podbot] I'm still unaware of the status of multi-user Be. I mean, you can specify one user, and edit your system so you're whoever you are instead of Baron Arnold. The infrastructure's there anyway.

[Serpent] oh ;]

[AndyHeck] multi user be is in the works for a future release of the os.

[Serpent] got ya now :]

[podbot] I've heard that before too. No commitment as to when however, sadly.

[_jibe_] andy: well my objective is to go my interpreter to work. and then to embed it in a document-oriented application

[AndyHeck] Yeah, you all have my attention now. My dog was demanding attention a few minutes ago.

[podbot] What machines are all of you running BeOS on?

[AndyHeck] 233 MHz PC

[_jibe_] P100

[_jibe_] well not yet :(

[podbot] PPC 180 mhz here.

[AndyHeck] I may run it soon on another PC: 166 MHz and on my PPC 601/60.

[podbot] Problem is 601's aren't supported, or are they with modification?

[Serpent] are there any plans to port BeOS to the MIPS CPU or Alpha?

[_jibe_] i dont think so

[_jibe_] not yet, at least..

[AndyHeck] I don't know about 601's not being supported. I guess I better check on that.

[AndyHeck] I know the G3's aren't supported, but I thought the other PPCs were.

[podbot] Yeah, there's a big thing in the FAQ about how 601s aren't supported. 603s, 603EV, 604s are ok.

[AndyHeck] No, there are no plans to port it to any other platform at all.

[AndyHeck] dammit to hell and back again.

[podbot] Depressive.

[_jibe_] i think they already have their hands full..

[podbot] Yep.

[podbot] 81920k (83886080 bytes) total memory

[AndyHeck] Well, it's understandable, them not porting to other platforms, and I'll tell you why.

[podbot] Oop.

[AndyHeck] huh?

[_jibe_] me too :-))

[podbot] At least my machine isn't on fire.

[AndyHeck] BeOS on Intel is just barely not beta. It only works with a few video cards and no scsi support. few (like 4) Ethernet cards supported.

[podbot] It'l get there. I worry that someday PPC updates will stop coming. Guess I'll have to buy another computer someday then. Yikes. Guess I'll have to pay for this one first.

[Serpent] :]

[Serpent] has anyone got a be-box?

[Serpent] that you know..

[_jibe_] it's too bad scsi does not work :((..

[podbot] I always wanted a BeBox.

[AndyHeck] DVD drives can only be used as CD drives under Be, until programs are written for the DVD drives to play the DVD movies. There's OpenGL and 1394 (Firewire) that have to be supported more as well. Back to the SCSI thing, there are many different devices in that category.

[_jibe_] i know a few people who have beboxen.. but they're in France :-))

[_jibe_] well i'd like it to support my host adapter (nc53c810/pci) first!

[podbot] I see them for sale every now and then....it would be nice to have a dual 133 unit.

[Serpent] IEEE 1394, is support for that included?

[Serpent] that is looking ahead for sure..

[AndyHeck] No, they're working on it for R5, meaning release 5 of the OS

[Serpent] its on R3 now yes.. :]

[podbot] Andy - do you have a brief laundry list of what was added to R3, and what is planned for R4/5?

[AndyHeck] _________________________________________________________ Here's a tip for any of you who will be learning to program the OS. The Messaging / Scripting stuff is the first stuff to learn in the Be Book, but it can get very difficult to understand. If you get caught up, just skip that whole chapter. The rest of the book is much easier to understand, and you can always come back to chap 1. I made the mistake of wasting too much time, tryin

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[AndyHeck] No, Todd, I don't. Not on paper or on my computer, anyway. However, I did videotape ALL OF THE SESSIONS that I attended at BeDC! They talked about that stuff there. If you want, I can send you a copy of the tape that talks about the future releases.

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[podbot] Andy - that would be cool. My e-mail is crash@waste.org.

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[podbot] I'm going to be stepping out briefly for some groceries (and to check voicemail messages :!) It's been fun talking to all of you!

[podbot] night, all.

[AndyHeck] To all of you, I intend to learn to program the BeOS ASAP, so if you have any trouble, I'll be glad to help you more than the Be Developer Tech Support People.

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[Serpent] :]

[Serpent] wb guys

[_jibe_] re andy

[_jibe_] & mike as well..

[AndyHeck] You two having trouble?L

[Serpent] :]

[AndyHeck] guy, actually.

[Serpent] was i the only one left ?

[Serpent] hehe

[_jibe_] apparently

[_jibe_] what server are you on?

[_jibe_] (i had to switch)

[AndyHeck] I'm the only one here, besides you two UKers. Mike2 may be still here to record everything that goes on, and Mike'll save it all in the morning.

[AndyHeck] Oh, sorry. Jibe isn't a UKer.

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[Serpent] arlington.va.us.dal.net (Erols Internet Services')

[Serpent] port 6667

[AndyHeck] Do you guys have anything else you want to say or ask me? Otherwise, I'll be going.

[AndyHeck] (I'm waiting. No rush.)

[_jibe_] that's the one i switched to.

[_jibe_] probably right about mike2..

[_jibe_] anyway..

[_jibe_] i really expect to receive the thing this week...

[AndyHeck] Either you're both busily typing, or you are busy with something else, I suppose.

[AndyHeck] ...

[AndyHeck] ...

[AndyHeck] ...

[_jibe_] i dunno... should you know something we dont ?

[_jibe_] (i missed the beginning of the meeting so i dont know how everyone introduced him(her)self.. * Serpent finally sends his application ;]

[AndyHeck] Neither of you were here earlier today, when just me and Todd were talking. I told him about the functions is_computer_on_fire() and is_computer_on() for the BeOS. Those are real functions that you can use in a program! It's insane :-) Supposedly, the is_computer_on_fire() function returns a 0 if the computer is not on fire, and if it is on fire, it returns the temperature of the computer. Imagine that. I think they just threw that in

[AndyHeck] laugh that I actually used those functions.

[Serpent] took me a while to describe what im doing ;]

[Serpent] is that for the motherboard resources?

[Serpent] thats a really good idea ...

[_jibe_] oh yeah i know those ( *computer_on...)

[Serpent] if (computer_on_fire()) { damn_well_backup_data_to_offsite_storage(); }

[Serpent] hehe

[_jibe_] you can even stop each processor programmatically ;-) (eventually all of them... but then...)

[Serpent] :]

[AndyHeck] Mike Popovic is the guy who started up this Be User Group (BUG). He called it Vespetine Westchester, because he lives in Westchester, New York, and Vespertine means "meeting at night," or something. * Serpent must go to sleep now :]

[_jibe_] ok...

[Serpent] thanks for the chat and interesting information..

[_jibe_] anytime..

[Serpent] ive signed up as a developer btw ;]

[AndyHeck] I was one of the first members of the VW BUG. I told him I'm going to the Be Developer's Conference, and he told me that if I went as the user groups official representative, there's no admission fee.

[Serpent] if theres anything interesting going on please let me know stuart@spiralnebula.demon.co. uk

[Serpent] thanks

[Serpent] does this channel meet regularly?

[_jibe_] BeDC in SanFrancisco right?

[AndyHeck] So, I went as the rep and videotaped and met everyone and had a great time. Melanie Wright is the Web Diva at Be. That's her real title. I met her in CA, too. She joined this user group, because she thinks Be Dope is cool. Mike Popovic created Be Dope, so there's the connection. She also wants to be in touch with a user group to help us out.

[_jibe_] ok

[AndyHeck] bye Stuart

[_jibe_] it comes all together finally ;-)

[AndyHeck] Oh, this is our first meeting, and we seem to have like 3 or 4 members.

[Serpent] :]

[Serpent] well if youre around again ill pop in

[Serpent] cya!

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[AndyHeck] When Mike sent out the emails to everyone about the meeting, he only heard back from 3 people, meaning the other 26 people who at one time or another sent him an email requesting to join the BUG have lost interest or something.

[AndyHeck] You can join our BUG, no matter where you live. Especially if we just keep meetin online :-)

[AndyHeck] Mike is from NY

[AndyHeck] Todd is from Minnesota

[AndyHeck] Me and Jean-Baptiste are from NJ

[_jibe_] yep

[AndyHeck] and Stuart is from UK

[_jibe_] what about going to the FlemingBUG meetings?

[AndyHeck] So, no one is really near one another, not enough for any regular commuting.

[_jibe_] i think they have something going on at a mac users' group meeting in Princeton soon

[_jibe_] i think i'll go

[_jibe_] what do you say about that ?

[AndyHeck] Well, I don't know. I want to meet as many people as possible, because it is good to have connections.

[AndyHeck] But many of these BUGS just don't have the members yet to do anything.

[_jibe_] that's true.

[AndyHeck] Yeah, now that you mention that, it rings a bell. I remember reading something about that. I'm more interested in meeting other people who will help me learn more about Be, and less interested in just "spreading the word" to people who haven't heard of it.

[AndyHeck] I will go to Fleming'BUG meetings, if and only if, they are going to be like this. I don't want to go to a speaking engagement, because I really am a busy person.

[AndyHeck] I devoted the whole day today to get hooked up with IRC and do the meeting, but this can't be done for multiple groups regularly, ya know?

[_jibe_] what do you do for a living?

[_jibe_] so that you are so busy ...

[AndyHeck] VW BUG was the first group I joined and means the most to me, so I'll surely stick with this group and support it. I have friends sort of on the way to NY, so if there are meetings in person, it'll be a chance for me to stop in and see my ol' friends again.

[_jibe_] i c

[AndyHeck] I am feverishly trying to finish my subjects early and learn Be programming and about a hundred other things. I have all but disconnected from my regular friends, because I can't afford to just "hang out" anymore.

[_jibe_] well i dont know that many people in the area anyway (i've been here since last october only..)

[AndyHeck] I am a college freshmen, but really one who can act at a professional, adult level at times. Of course, other times, I'm silly, but I can give speeches and presentations in front of people very well, I have more education than any of my friends, (I took college classes while in high school), and I have the initiative to do what it takes to end up where I want to be years from now.

[_jibe_] hehe

[_jibe_] so you already know about programming in c++ ? ;-)

[AndyHeck] I have been talking with Be, Inc to find out what I should learn so that when I'm done with college, I can work at Be. I plan on making educational software though, so I'd only work at be for 5 years or so - not permanently.

[AndyHeck] yes

[AndyHeck] The first college class I took was a class in C programming at the community college, while I was just a junior at high school.

[AndyHeck] I know C++, but am rusty.

[_jibe_] what age does that make you then ? (i know i m a little nosy..)

[AndyHeck] This stuff is easy to forget if you don't use it.

[_jibe_] c++ is a difficult language anyway..

[AndyHeck] No, nosy is fine. Information is always good to seek. I'm 19.

[AndyHeck] My pet peeve is the educational system. I'm pissed at the educational system, because I could

[AndyHeck] have been so much more educated if the stuffed shirts in school weren't holdning me back.

[AndyHeck] They wouldn't let me skip any grades, they didn't want to let me take college courses, and so instead I just wasted much of my day in useless classes, and it's all bureaucracy.

[_jibe_] hehe.. apparently you dont know about the french school system then ;))

[AndyHeck] I have felt this way for a long time that there needs to be education reform and that there is no reform coming soon. I thought that the biggest change I could make to society is to make great educational software that will produce more informed individuals in America, because really, we have too many ignorant people.

[_jibe_] finally an american that acknowledges that ! :-)) * _jibe_ is being bad tonight

[AndyHeck] I know that's not really anyone's fault, it is all just a result of a lack of resources to become better educated feasibly. So, I'm going to see if I can change that. I may not be able to. I can always just be another programmer, but I'm going to try to make a difference.

[AndyHeck] ..

[AndyHeck] Tell me about the French educational system.

[AndyHeck] And what are you doing that's bad tonight?

[_jibe_] saying too many americans are ignorant ;)

[_jibe_] the french system is very weird.

[_jibe_] it's based only on performance.

[_jibe_] and mostly on performance in math & physics.

[AndyHeck] What do you mean it is based on performance. Do you mean that if a 2nd grader can do 6th grade work, they'd put the 2nd grader in with the 6th graders?

[AndyHeck] That would be a good thing, except for problems with psychological development.

[_jibe_] and then it's kind of dual. there's the university and the engineering schools (well i'm only considering engineering since it's what i did)..

[_jibe_] oh yes you could skip classes (it pretty rare though), but that is not what i meant

[_jibe_] after high school, you can either go to the university (what you call college), or if you're good enough enter 'preparatory classes'

[AndyHeck] See, in America, they want to keep students with other students in their age group. My friend skipped a grade, because he had previously been held back. The school wanted to get him back with his age group. He did half ass work, still, and I think he shouldn't have been pushed ahead; he hadn't earned it. I, on the other hand, did a lot of extra work, and should

[AndyHeck] have been several grades ahead, but because they are concerned about psychological development, they don't do that.

[_jibe_] those classes (2 or 3 years, depending) are intensive maths & physics that prepare for exams that allow (possibly) one to enter what's called 'grandes ecoles' : renowned schools (engineering schools)...

[_jibe_] that's what veru bizarre : having 'schools' for engineering, and then the university (those sometimes overlap..).

[_jibe_] anyway. it's pretty boring i guess so i wont bother you any more with that.

[AndyHeck] So the better you do in school, you end up in institutions of different levels of difficulty down the road, right?

[_jibe_] yeah, sort of

[_jibe_] shit, my browser dumped core.

[AndyHeck] No, actually I'd like to hear all about the French educational system. The question is if you feel like telling it.

[AndyHeck] I've not heard of Net Positive doing that yet.

[_jibe_] netscape. that's what i had.

[_jibe_] running, i mean

[_jibe_] what hw are u using, btw?

[_jibe_] pc/ppc?

[AndyHeck] Yeah, I know you're not using Net+. I was just comparing the browsers.

[AndyHeck] That Be doesn't crash much.

[AndyHeck] What am I using?

[_jibe_] oh

[_jibe_] well netpositive has some trouble with large web pages...

[AndyHeck] I'm using an intel 233 mhz win95 pc

[_jibe_] you say that... it used to crash a lot (like every 2 hours..)

[AndyHeck] I have Be and DOS partitions on my HD, so I can run either OS. I can't connect to the Internet in Be, though, because Be doesn't have a driver for my Ethernet card, which my cable modem plugs into.

[_jibe_] i c

[_jibe_] when did you say you received the beos/intel cd?

[AndyHeck] I am surprised to hear that Net+ used to be unstable. Was this in PR1 or PR2?

[_jibe_] not net+. the whole system ;-)

[_jibe_] in the dr5 times

[At this time, the meeting wound down to a close]