Subject: Re: Median quality of life falls as quintiles rises Only in Sweden Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:45:54 GMT From: oldnasty@mindspring.com (Grinch) Happy Skeptics of America Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics, sci.economics, alt.journalism >Richard Clark wrote: > > Throughout most if not all of Scandinavia, unemployment checks amount > > to 80% of one's last income. >jim blair: > I'll see if I can translate that into US dollars corrected for PPP, to > compare with the median wage of US jobs created since 1973. Both after > taxes, of course. > >> Why after taxes? Are you suggesting that the huge array of social >> benefits that the Swedes get for their tax money has no value? Now why >> would you allow yourself to be deceived that way, Jimmy? >Hi, >Are you saying the higher the taxes, and the lower the after tax >incomes, the better? Because the social services are necessarily >better, the higher the tax rate? Sounds like he's saying Swedes' welfare should be figured as if they get their full pre-tax income *and* the social spending that their taxes pay for too, as if that isn't double counting. >Which is why there is no simple number that can tell you where is the >"best" place to live. One thing to remember about "Sweden versus the US" is that Sweden is tiny with a homogenous population. One might with equal logic compare New Hampshire to Europe, note that there's less crime and better health and income statistics in New Hampshire (which there are) then conclude that Europe should abandon the income tax. Another thing to remember about Sweden is that its economic and social conditions are decaying -- it's no longer what a lot of people imagined it used to be (if it ever was.) Here's excerpts from a recent NY Times story (8/10/98) about this. (The whole story is on the Times web site). ~quote~ STOCKHOLM, Sweden -- .... Sweden is approaching its future with a sense of drift and loss and an unaccustomed confusion over what to do about it. In this decade, Swedes have lost their feeling of being something exceptional, and experienced their first unemployment, social spending scandals and a decline in competitiveness. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has reduced Sweden's per capita income standing from fourth to 15th place in the world.... The country that produced Gunnar Myrdal and preached racial tolerance has now developed segregated communities in Stockholm's suburbs for the 800,000 immigrants who have come here over the last 30 years from the Middle East, Asia, South America and Eastern Europe. Its largest and most successful company, the telecommunications giant Ericsson, is threatening to move its headquarters to Britain .... Industrialists cite high personal income taxes and rigid labor rules as impediments to remaining competitive globally while doing business here. Swedes miss being the society that attracted admiration from afar for a nation of fewer than 9 million people .... The nostalgia arises in every conversation with Swedes about their country and has produced an election campaign in which the most repeated claim is not a dynamic pledge to bring change but a stolid promise to restore what was. "'Restore' is the key word," said Sigfrid Leijonhufvud, a political and economic columnist for the Svenska Dagbladet. "The desire is to go back to when Sweden was one of the three or four richest countries in the world, when we were listened to in the United States and labor and management used to come and tour Sweden to see how we did it and everyone looked to us for the solution."... "It was absurd, but we thought of ourselves as a kind of superpower," said Arne Ruth, an author and former editor in chief of Dagens Nyheter. "We had the certainty that progress was permanent. Now that feeling of exceptionalism has been lost, and we are just another normal nation." The government spends 46 percent of Sweden's gross national product on welfare, more than any other country, and its overall public spending is 63 percent of gross national product. The income taxes required to support this public munificence take 59 percent of the pay of people earning as little as $30,000 a year and oblige employers to pay up to 41 percent of employee remuneration into social security and pension plans. Tentative government attempts to trim its welfare costs are so resented that officials have promised to increase spending and abandon talk of tax cuts. "Talking about tax cuts in this campaign is like swearing in church," said Toivo Sjoren, research chief at the Sifo opinion surveying group.... While center-left parties in European countries like Britain, the Netherlands, France and Spain have cut government subsidies and encouraged private business, Sweden's ruling Social Democrats go into the Sept. 20 parliamentary elections facing irresistible demands from their aging constituents .... "There are Swedes who are excited about the possibilities of the future, but more who are scared by them, and the politicians respect the scared part because that's where you get the votes," said Mats Lindgren, the chairman of the consulting firm Kairos Future. "No one is sure about what the way for Sweden is anymore," Sjoren said. He produced study charts that held out little hope that the country's leaders would take any decisive action. Measuring the dispositions of major countries, the document placed Sweden in the corner representing the pursuit of stability instead of innovation and dependence on collectivist action as opposed to individual initiative. Other industrialized countries were crowded into the top quarter for their willingness to take risks and act decisively. Sweden's only companion in the forlorn bottom spot was Japan.... Once a nation that spoke out on conditions around the world, Sweden has become inward-looking and self-absorbed.... Any attempt at restructuring faces formidable cultural resistance. The work force is 80 percent unionized, and 31 percent of the jobs are in the public sector. Pressure for change is coming from frustrated entrepreneurs and young people.... said Lindgren of Kairos Future. "Businesses can't grow here, because it's too expensive to hire people," he said. "Young people are starting to think globally," he said. "They're comparing themselves with the people around the world that they meet on backpacking trips or on the Internet or where they've studied abroad or at a job for a multinational. Some of them are moving away, and they are the people that Sweden needs most." ~end quote~ Those earning only $30,000 paying 59% of it in taxes? Of course! How could they possibly be better off spending some of that money for themselves when the government can spend it for them? "If Sweden were a U.S. state, it would be the poorest measured by household gross income before taxes." Sweden is poorer than Arkansas, Alabama, or Mississippi. ----- Swedish Research Institute of Trade, 2002 "sam fisher" wrote in message news:_DUpd.92495$T02.87520@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com... > Something interesting I forgot: > > http://www.pkarchive.org/global/swedenomics.html Hi, This from two years ago: >Harold wrote >> >> [deleted] >> >> >> >"If Sweden were a U.S. state, it would be the poorest measured >> >> >by household gross income before taxes." Sweden is poorer than >> >> >Arkansas, Alabama, or Mississippi. >> >> > ----- Swedish Research Institute of Trade, 2002 >> > darkness39@yahoo.com (darkness) wrote: >... >Whatever you can say about Sweden, they appear to have cracked the >general prosperity problem. > >If you would take the time to travel round Sweden (as well as the Old >South) you would see exactly what I mean. Hi, In the various discussions about the homogeneity and lack of poverty in Sweden, are the Sami included? http://www.itv.se/boreale/samieng.htm From what I have seen in film and on TV, if the Sami lived in Alaska or Minnesota (or Missippi except for the climate) they would be classified as being in poverty. ,,,,,,, _______________ooo___(_O O_)___ooo_______________ (_) jim blair (jeblair@facstaff.wisc.edu) Madison Wisconsin USA. This message was brought to you using biodegradable binary bits, and 100% recycled bandwidth. For a good time call: http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/4834 AND from 2004: > > "Terje Johan Abrahamsen" wrote in message > news:30q45kF322lgfU1@uni-berlin.de... > > > > "sam fisher" wrote in message > > news:_qPpd.92440$T02.91426@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com... > > > "Terje Johan Abrahamsen" wrote in message > > > news:30pl5hF2l403rU1@uni-berlin.de... > > > > > > > > Funny you mention Sweden. If Sweden had been a state in the US, it > > > would > > > > > > have been the poorest. West Virginia the median familyincome 280 > 000 > > > > SKR. In > > > > > > Sweden the median is 276k. > > > > > > > > > > Are you adjusting for purchasing power parity? > > > > > > > > If we bring purchasing power parity into the equation the picture gets > > > even > > > > dimmer for Europe. > > > > > > > > We can for example use the BigMac index from the Economist. > > > > http://www.oanda.com/products/bigmac/bigmac.shtml > > > > > > > > An american pay in average (2003) 2,65 dollar for a BigMac. A Swede > have > > > to > > > > pay 4.45 dollar. Nearly twice as much, while the income is way below. > > West > > > > Virginia is the state in the US that score the lowest, but can still > buy > > > > twice as much as the average Swede..... > > > > > > > > (http://www.finfacts.com/costofliving4.htm). The cost of living index > > > shows > > > > Oslo at 130 while Stockholm is at 109. New York is the most expensive > in > > > the > > > > US, and has a value of 100. Cleveland has an index of 78 for > comparison. > > > > > > > > In other words, if price index is included, the difference would be a > > lot > > > > larger. In material standard of living, the US is way ahead..... > > > > > > That's a joke. > > > > Really? And what do you base that on except for socialist dreaming? > > > > > How about Idaho? > > > > Better off than West Virginia. And, hence, better of than Sweden... > > > > > How about the 41 million uninsured? > > > > Nothing is perfect. I am European enough, so I do agree that there should > be > > coverage for everyone. But, as we have it here, the government covers > > everyone. But, that leads to about 300 000 of Norways 4.5 million citizens > > are waiting in line for hospital treatments. There are no private > hospitals. > > There are billions every year going straight down the drain because of > > ineffectivity. > > > > > How about the phony unemployment figures (officially 5.6%). 2001-2004 > > labor > > > force participation rates indicate that a more realistic value is 7.4% > > > > Still less than half of most European countries. For example France. > > 12.4%... Over 25% if you look at the agegroup below 30. > > > > > How about the $7trillion on the book deficit? > > > > It is a defecit of 4.3% of GDP. France has 4.1%. Germany 3.9%. The US has > a > > lot better chances of recovering than the other two mentioned here. A > > country and a business/persons economy cannot be compared. For a country a > > debt can be a positive. > > > > > US is an economic trainwreck. Official economic indicators such as CPI > > are > > > spurious, total forgeries - I saw better ones in the Soviet block. Look > > at > > > inflation and CPI numbers. Don't tell me there is no inflation in the > US > > > when every food item in my local supermarket went up 40%+ the last 4 > > years. > > > Yet when CPI numbers in 96 started to show this fact big Al came out > > saying > > > that CPI overstated consumer inflation by about 1%. Because supposedly > > > americans are shopping in discount stores, and made up other phony > stories > > > why the number has to be "corrected". Since CPI is a useless economic > > > indicator we can't tell how well average US consumer is doing, but you > can > > > bet: much worse than the numbers show. > > > > > > Sure, if you lower that number by about 1% that in effect will reset > > > indexation formulas for government benefits and taxation as well. This > > also > > > reduces the visible federal debt. It's a clever accounting gimmic, but > it > > > does make official US figures totally useless. > > > > > > One of the funniest such phony accounting trick I remember from Bush's > > 2003 > > > economic forecast which argued that McDonalds jobs were "factory" jobs > > since > > > they required light assembly skills ;) No mention about the benefits > and > > > average payrate of those jobs. > > > > > > Again, think Soviet Union: the system became so orvellian in the US that > > you > > > really have to travel to get a sense of economic realities! > > > > I really think you should travel some more. If you see a little more of > the > > world, and maybe attend an economics class or two as well, you will feel a > > lot better. Socialism never worked. It has never worked, it will never > work. > > Europe is falling further and further behind in economic sense. > > > > "sam fisher" wrote in message news:_DUpd.92495$T02.87520@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com... > Something interesting I forgot: > > http://www.pkarchive.org/global/swedenomics.html