Forum Archive (May 1998)

• Welcome to Dragon in Space Forum
  [5/22/98] Chen Lan :
  Hi, friends
  
  This forum is a new feature of 'Dragon in Space' website. Please write here all you know or you want to say about Chinese space program. This forum is just for 'Free of Speech'
  
  Have fun
  Chen Lan
  Dragon in Space webmaster

• Great Job!!!
  [5/23/98] RKing :
  Hey, you did an excellent job!!! You site is simple but provides a great information. Thanks so much!!!
  
  A big Chinese space fan...

• Congratulations!!
  [6/27/98] ShiMK :
  Excellent job! This website is well done. As an emerging player in space, discussions of China's progress will be welcomed by a number of space buffs.

• Question on the father of Space in China
  [5/23/98] A. Chen :
  You said Tsien Hsue-shen is the father of Space in China. Is he the same person that was prosecuted in the US during the McArthy era? And why does he has two names?
  
  [5/23/98] Chen Lan :
  Qian Xuesen is formal spelling according to current Chinese to English translation standard. Another spelling is used before 60s when Qian is in US.
  
  Yes, he is just the person you mentioned.

• An article talked about the US sanction
  [5/23/98] A. Chen :
  There is an article in the Wall Street Journal (US version) yesterday (5/22/98) that talked about the US sanction on satellite technology on China. In it, it talked about the reason for the last failed Long March launch was an improper soldered connection. It also talked about they can't find the encrption box on the US satellite that was blown up. It is kind of interesting.
  
  [5/23/98] Chen Lan :
  I've heard about it. The missing box may had been picked up by a farmer :-)
  
  I don't think the sanction will affect China. China can also get such technology from Russia. It will also force China turning to European satellite maker. America will lost the market (currently US has Chinasat-8 and APMT contracts) and its own commercial project will be damaged, such as Iridium that relies on Long March for its spare satellite launching.
  
  [5/23/98] A. Chen :
  I think that China likes to have more customers for their launch service. For what I know, Iradium has 23 launches reserved for the LM rockets.
  
  By the way, I think that in ten to 15 years, China as well as the rest of the world will lose its price advantage in the satellite launch business to the USA. US is undergoing several programs to reduce the cost of launching satellites by a factor of 10 to 100.

• Chinese Space Shuttle
  [5/23/98] GW:
  Is it true that China will launch a manned space shuttle in 1st October, 1999?
  
  [5/23/98] Chen Lan:
  I don't think it's a shuttle. Chinese manned spacecraft will be similar to Russian Soyuz. Maybe Shuttle is the next step but I believe it will be many years later.

• Global Positioning Satellites
  [5/23/98] GW  :
  Has anybody any idea about how advance China is technologically as far as using Global Positioning satellites are concern for military purposes. GPS are used by US for precision targeting of the missiles. If so, in what ranking order is China, after the US in the use of GPS?
  
  [5/25/98] Mnine  :
  Of course, China has long been utilizing GPS/GLONASS for a growing range of civil and military purposes. There is reporting on an indiginous Chinese GPS program called 'Twinstar' that was due to be launched around now. Any furhter info on this project would be appreciated. There is also recent reporting our of Hong Kong (source always suspect) that the PLA has a DGPS system in Fujian Province, ostensibly to support military ops around Taiwan. Again, any confirmation would be appreciated. The PLA growing use of GPS gives cause for some comfort that the PLA will not attack the US GPS network in wartime. However, given the growing US reliance on GPS is cannot be discounted that the GPS system would be a target in the event of hostilities around Taiwan. In this regard it makes sense to seek combined GPS/GLONASS systems for the broad range of uses for China.
  
  [5/28/98] Chen Lan  :
  Just curious how 2 satelites determine a position. Maybe two GEO satellites above China? If so, such a locally used system should called LPS instead of GPS.
  
  [6/27/98] ShiMK  :
  Mnine, you refered to a Hong Kong report which discussed a DGPS network in Fujian province. Was this a FBIS report, and if so do you have the specific journal name and an approx date? By the way, my understanding of the Chinese Twinstar is that it is a rudimentary radio determination satellite system (RDSS) which will not provide the accuracy necessary for space launch vehicles or missile use. It will, however, lay a foundation for a more sophisticated satellite navigation constellation down the road.

• The number of spy sattelites
  [5/23/98] RC  :
  How many Spy satellites do China have?
  
  [5/24/98] Chen Lan  :
  Up to 20. 17 FSW satellites and 3 satellites launched by FB-1 are possibly spy satellites (but not all)

• Question for Chen Lan (GW might be interested also)
  [5/23/98] A. Chen :
  In your Q&A section, you mentioned that China is working on a navigation system consisted of 2 satellites. This is similar to the American GPS. If it is so, how is this possible?
  
  To get the position of the satellite (x, y, and z) and time (t), you can use simple geometry to get four equations by using four satellites. Four equations and four unknowns, it is a simple geometry problem. Of course, to account for noises in the communications channel, equipment variations, etc., usually one needs to have five or six satellites simultaneously in view to get a good solution.
  
  Don't know how is it possible to get position data with only two satellites.
  
  Also, if I am missile designer in China, I wouldn't put GPS receiver on any missiles. They might be able to get very good performance in test conditions. But I would bet that they will be useless (or even worse) during an actual war.
  
  [5/24/98] Chen Lan :
  China released only a little information about this project. I do not know its technical details and specifications. China have already use GPS for military uses. I think this system will not as advanced and accurete as US's but will be useful in case US cut the signal during war.

• Long March 4
  [5/24/98] SpaceJunk :
  LM4 has rarely been used. What was it designed for? Is the model a failure? uhmm, maybe 4 is indeed a bad number for Chinese...
  
  [5/24/98] Chen Lan :
  I don't think so.
  
  Long March 4 is designed for SSO orbit. There are a few SSO payload in China. It will have 4 launches in next 3 years: FY-1C, FY-1D, ZY-1 and ZY-2.

• Chinese Satellite Tracking Stations
  [5/24/98] GW :
  For effective use of satellites, China might have to install tracking stations outside China. Does China have any satellite tracking stations outside its borders?? If so, which country? I know the US has many tracking stations all over the world. These are friendly countires to the US. In time of war, these tracking stations will not be closed down or denied access to US because they are manned my US personnels. I feel that satellites will play very improtant roles in future warfare.
  
  [5/25/98] Chen Lan :
  Yes, there is one in Pacific ocean. Located in Republic of Kiribati, a south Pacific country. It begins operation in late 1997.
  
  [6/9/98] Mnine :
  Is there any indication that China may have access to Brazilian or ESA/French space track facilities? If such could be arranged, along with the addition of a site in a friendly african country, would that be sufficient for global satellite track coverage? Or would China also require additional northern hemisphere tracking sites? Thanx.
  
  [6/27/98] ShiMK :
  Mnine, you asked if China is working with ESA/france on space tracking. My understanding is that an agreement for Chinese access to French space tracking data was signed a few years. It is not clear if Chinese (if so, probably COSTIND) are actually located within French sites or if there is a data link which connects tracking data to COSTIND's Satellite Tracking Center. As China's presence in space grows, they need a more extensive space tracking network for station keeping, etc.

• Latest launch
  [5/24/98] vc :
  What happened to the latest LM3B? Why is the launch postponed
  so many times?
  
  [5/25/98] Chen Lan :
  It originally scheduled in December 1997. Then February. Then April. Then May 2. Then May 19. Then May 20, 22, 24. And finally May 28 now.
  
  All launch date come from Lockheed Martin, the satellite maker. No details about why it postponed were given. I think it is quite normal. There are so many reasons: weather, satellite and launcher test problems, and support facilities problems. For example, two LM-2C Iridium launches in March and April all have 3-4 delays.

• Congratulations to this page
  [5/25/98] vc :
  (same vc who posted a message above) Just want to congratulate Mr. Chen for setting up this page. Most comprehensive info on Chinese rockets I've ever seen.

• Questions: LM3's and LM4B
  [5/25/98] vc :
  1) Do you think LM3A, 3B and 3C corresponds to the Ariane 4 series? It looks like LM3C = LM3B minus 2 boosters but why it takes so long to develop.
  
  2) Is LM4B = LM4A plus four boosters?
  
  [5/25/98] Chen Lan :
  1) Yes. LM-3B's GTO capacity of 4.8 tonnes is similar to that of AR-44L, the most powerful model of Ariane 4. Long March 3C will be ready next year according to CALT. Why so long? I guess it has no customers so far.
  
  2) I don't think so. It will launch ZY-1 and FY-1C this year. We will see what's the diffrences.

• TSIEN HSUE-SHIEN
  [5/25/98] XIAOPING LONG :
  I've read most of the English Version books published so far about Tsien Hsue-Shien. Does anybody know any chinese version books about his role and contributions to China's Space and Missile Program?
  
  Thanks!

• Question on Radarsats
  [5/25/98] Mnine :
  In late 1996 China announced a domestic radarsat program at the major international space assoc. meeting in Beijing. At the time Aviation Week reported that GEC-Marconi and DASA were interested in helping develop the same. Also in 1996 Canada's SPAR (RADARSAT builder) and China announced a cooperation agreement. One can only presume that China has approached Russian radarsat builders like Almaz and NPO Mashinostroyenia as well. Is there any more infor or informed opinion on the status or progress of China's radarsat program?
  
  [5/26/98] Chen Lan :
  Nothing reported since then
  
  [6/27/98] ShiMK :
  If I recall correctly, within the last year or so China Aerospace (Zhongguo Hangtian) magazine reported that the design of a domestic satellite-borne synthetic aperture radar had been finalized. Not clear which organization (CAST or Shanghai Academy of Space Technology) has primary design and manufacturing reponsibility.
  
  [6/27/98] Chen Lan :
  Thanks for the information

• A simple question...
  [5/26/98] Tango :
  what does GTO stands for?
  
  [5/26/98] Chen Lan :
  Check this link for detail
  http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/physics/GeostationaryTransferOrbit.html

• Long March 2C/SD
  [5/26/98] Steve :
  Does anyone have a picture or a diagram of the Smart Dispensor used on the LM-2C launch Iridium satellites?

• GTO, LEO and SSO questions
  [5/26/98] vc :
  1) Why are rockets always dedicated to one role? e.g. LM3 for GTO, LM4 for SSO only? Can there be an "one size fits all"?
  
  2) Anyone knows any link which explains how to calculate the intended orbit of a satellite (in theory, of course, I don't want to get into the details)
  
  [5/27/98] Chen Lan :
  1) To launch a GTO payload will need more power than LEO payload, so the launcher normally need a 'upper stage'. LM-3/3A/3B has a additional LOX/LH2 stage on top of the LM-2/2E's 2 stages. Solar synchronous orbit(SSO) also need more powerful rocket because it has lager inclination (110 degree - reverse to earth's rotation) and higher altitude. Three stage LM-4 was designed for SSO and samll GTO payloads. LM-2 theoretically can also launch very small GTO and SSO payloads but it is meaningless. Of cause, the control and navigation system are aslo different for different orbits. 'One size fit all' is difficult.
  
  2) May be somthing useful in this page:
  http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/vsohp/satintro.html

• What are souding rockets?
  [5/28/98] Tango :
  What exact is a sounding rocket? What is it used for?
  
  [5/28/98] Chen Lan :
  The suborbital rocket for sicentific research.

• New solid fuel SLV, belated congrats
  [5/28/98] Mnine :
  First, I belatedly wish to heartly join the others who have offered congratulations on this fine web page. It is most useful and documents achievement for which Chinese should be proud. Question: What can be said now about future Chinese solid fueled SLVs. Are they in development? Any projections regarding size, thrust, expected payload? I would appreciate any informed speculation or observations. Thanx.
  
  [5/28/98] Chen Lan :
  I don't think China will have a pure solid space launcher in future, although China has pure solid strategic missiles for many years. In fact, CZ-1, CZ-1D, CZ-2C/SD have already used solid stage. I'm considering to add the engine detail data in my site, including solid fuel engines.
  
  [5/28/98] Mnine :
  Is it safe to assume that the projected larger booster attachments for the LM-2E improved version, are liquid fueled? Any possibility they may be solid fueled? Thanx.
  
  [5/28/98] Chen Lan :
  If you mean LM-2EA, its strap-ons are definitely liquid fueled. It could be seen from the CALT drawing - same diameter, same engine bell and same others with origial 2E. For safty issue, I think liquid is much better than solid, and strap-ons are also no problems. There are so many launchers, including manned launchers like Soyuz uses straps.
  
  [5/28/98] Foxtrot :
  If I'm right, solid are safer and faster to prepare than liquid fueled boosters/engines but the liquid fueled are more powerful? Thats' why most ICBMs and other missiles are solid fueled and most launchers are liquid fueled. So what would be the advantage of using solid fueled boosters instead of liquid fueled ones on a space mission?? Oh and great page!
  
  [5/28/98] Chen Lan :
  Is solid safer than liquid when launching? Challenger disaster was caused by one of two solid boosters. Liquid engine could be shut down after firing but solid can not. Shuttle has several experiences of emergency shut down of it main engine(liquid) and no lost caused.
  
  [5/28/98] RKing :
  The reason for ICBMs likely to use solid fuel because it provides much less space to store and less time to launch. On the other side, if you launch commercial satellite, why should you be in a big hurry while choose less poweful solid fuel system?
  
  By the way, which one, solid or fuel sytem is cheaper? Thanks!
  
  [6/27/98] ShiMK :
  If I can add in my belated two cents worth. I would speculate that solid fueled LVs would be of most use to launch small satellites in a wartime situation. In a major war, a static launch site is not survivable. For a survivable, launch-on-demand, rapid relaunch capability one needs a system that that be concealed, and then pop a small recon satellite up, for example, after larger satellites have been lost to ASATs. In China's case, they are not quite ready to fight a space war, and it's not clear they really want to. Chinese engineers, however, have clearly been assessing solid fueled LVs which, like the LM-2C, would most likely be adaptations of a missile. DF-21 or, when fielded, the DF-31 would be the most likely candidates.

• Any news about LM3B's Launch?
  [5/28/98] RKing :
  Any news about LM3B's Launch?
  
  [5/28/98] Chen Lan :
  The latest message is it will be launched on May 31. Launch window is:
  5:58 - 8:36 EDT
  9:58 - 12:36 GMT
  17:58 - 20:36 BJT

• Indian Launchers
  [5/29/98] Foxtrot :
  Just wondering, how does Indian lauchers, such as the ASLV, PSLV, and the GSLV compare with their conterparts in China?? Since we have more experience with launchers, I expect that ours are better and more powerful than theirs?
  
  [5/29/98] Chen Lan :
  Absolutely. PSLV and GSLV are similar to CZ-4 and CZ-3 but a little smaller. Indian has made remarkable progress in recent years. It will have LOX/LH2 engine soon. It also reportly have started the research on reusable launch system. See this page for more about Indian space program:
  http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SPACE/index.html
  
  [6/1/98] vc :
  But what I really don't like is their (initial) rockets have many foreign parts, like the GSLV will have a Russian cryogenic stage, the PSLV has a French engine. etc. I don't know how many components in Chinese rockets are imports, but it is always not good to rely on other people for those high-tech goodies.
  
  [6/2/98] Chen Lan :
  Fully agree with you. Independent is important. There are no major imported components in Long March as I known. Maybe except for some computer chips?

• 'Yi Jian San Xing'(one rocket, three satellites), when was it?
  [5/29/98] sean :
  when did China first send multiple satellites into space with one rocket?
  
  [5/29/98] Chen Lan :
  In 1981, by a Feng Bao 1 launcher. Satellites are SJ-2, 2A and 2B. See my Launch Vehicle page, Satellite page and Gallery page. (press BACK button on top of the Forum page to my main page first)
  
  [5/31/98] Mnine :
  During this launch, were the satellites merely stacked, or were they configued in a parallel maner in the launch bus? The later configuration roughly discribes the Iridium launcher bus, correct? Thus, one could reasonable presume that the Iridium launcher bus is much more sophisticated than that used in the 1981 launch? Thanx in advance for your views.
  
  [6/2/98] Chen Lan :
  Yes, Iridium launch need a 'Smart Dispensor' (a solid stage) to release satellites into different orbit(although in same plane). SJ-2s launched in 1981 are different. SJ-2 is inside SJ-2A, or is covered by SJ-2A's skirt. That is, SJ-2A must be released prior to SJ-2. It only need a simple mechanism instead of stage. SJ-2B is just two ballons linked with a cable, which was released from one of other two satellites. Three satellites finally entered very similar orbit. That's why Iridium launch is more sophiscated.

• Long March 2E
  [5/29/98] Joseph Maguire :
  I understand the LM 2E is rumored to be the likely launch vehicle for manned space flight. 1) Has it launched any prototypes or mockups for a manned craft? 2) Is it what NASA would call "man-rated", i.e., rated suitable for launching people? This was an issue with the Titan II before it was man-rated for Gemini because of the "pogo" effect.
  Thanks!
  
  [5/29/98] Chen Lan :
  1) No. But it is also rumored to have 1-2 unmanned prototype launches later this year or earlier next year.
  2) I don't know what is NASA's criterion of so called 'man-rated'. I believe Chinese have considered that manned launcher needs higher reliability but 'how higher'? It could be quite different in US, Russia and China. It is reportly an improved Long March 2E, probably 2E(A), will be used to launch the manned spacecraft. So it is really a new launcher. There are no details about this launcher so far. I believe it was designed with higher relaibility than other Long March models, and is comparable with Titan and Vostok/Soyuz.

• Chinese Spy Satellite
  [5/30/98] GW :
  Does China have spy satellites like the ones that the Americans have in taking photos of activities in other countries. American spy satellites are capable of taking detailed pictures of activities going on the ground many miles above the countries it is spying on. Does China have this capability??? Can someone answer my question, please..Thanks
  
  [5/31/98] Chen Lan :
  Chinese FSW satellites have onboard camera. But they have no real-time monitoring capacity and have only up to 16 days orbit life. China has no such satellite since 1996. I believe the next generation electronic imaging satellite will be launched earlier next century.
  
  [6/27/98] ShiMK :
  Chen Lan: My understanding is consistent with yours. However, I thought China's first downlink capability will come with the launch of the ZY-1 China-Brazil Earth Resources Satellite sometime this year. While of little military use, the charged coupled device (CCD) technology, which allows for digitized images to be transmitted to a ground station, on the ZY-1 could be applied to the next generation of fanshihui (FSW) remote sensing satellites. Speaking of this, any into the FSW-2 follow-on, the FSW-3?

• Two questions
  [5/31/98] Foxtrot :
  I have two questions, hopefully someone can answer them. First, will China launch any more FSW series recoverable satellite, any new developments in the FSW series sattellites? The last one launched was back in 96. Second, what is the status of the FY-2B sattelite right now? The meteorological sattelite's antenna lost Earth lock back in April, have this problem being fixed? If not, does it mean the FY-2B is useless now?
  
  [5/31/98] Chen Lan :
  FY-2B is hopeless, just wait the next one.
  
  [6/1/98] Foxtrot :
  When will that be? any dates set yet? n/t
  
  [6/1/98] Chen Lan :
  Originally set for the end of next year. Not sure whether it is rescheduled after the 2B lost.
  (Note: the official designation of the satellite mentioned in this thread should be FY-2A)

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