Progress & Regression

Critic:-

I have recently read that in Egypt censoring of media is far more exhaustive than it was in the 40's and 50's. The book goes on to say that in many ways Egypt is becoming more conservative in recent years. The implication is that many Muslim countries, besides Iran and Afghanistan, are also becoming more conservative.

Beyond the obvious fact that this just makes things more difficult for the rest of the world, I just don't understand it. Why, when the quality of life available to people is so much greater than it ever has been, would these Islamic countries choose to be more conservative?

Is this just a phase in getting over western imperialism, or is there a deeper problem here?

Comment:-

It all depends on what you mean by "conservative" and "problem". I presume you mean that people are returning to their Religion, to the fundamental values of Islam and that this causes political problems particularly for Western Political Masters. It is not seen as a problem by those who revert but as a solution to their problems.

It is partly a reaction to Western imperialism and exploitation. But it is also a reaction to modern secularism and materialism that has proved to be spiritually unsatisfactory and frustrating. The fact is that circumstances act as stimuli to thought and this sometimes causes genuine conversions or reversions. The problem could be that it is a false conversion. That is, people join the religion for wrong reasons and misunderstand or distort its purpose. Whereas the aim of Islam is primarily a spiritual one where social and economic matters are treated as means to that aim, people might treat it as primarily an ideological, political, economic or cultural device to re-assert their identity and dignity or to achieve a regeneration of their society and civilisation. This may certainly create further problems not only for the people who misuse their religion that way but also the rest of the world and even the environment. As this is placing the "cart before the horse" this distorted aim itself is wholly futile. The organisation of human affairs depends largely on the nature of human beings though also on their circumstances over which they might have limited conscious control. Even here it is not the circumstances themselves but how they are perceived, interpreted and used that is important. It is people who must be psychologically regenerated before they can transform their affairs. As Quran tells us, Allah changes not the condition of a people until they change what is in their hearts.

In fact, there is a conservative backlash throughout the USA and to a lesser extent in Europe and the rest of the world. There is a return to Religion because the advance of Science, Technology and Secular Organisation and the Materialist way of life this has brought has led to spiritual starvation. But naive understanding of religion has certainly increased conflict and tension and this in the modern technological age is much more dangerous than in the past.

Western imperialism has not stopped - it takes an economic, political and cultural form as well as a military form. Muslims do feel themselves under attack and this concentrates their minds both on Western ideas, values and actions and on those of Islam. Many people in Muslim countries adopt Western ones and others return to Islam.

It is true of course that there is greater economic prosperity in the West and Muslims also want this for themselves. But they see that Western Policies and power obstruct or prevent progress in this respect. They also see that the Western prosperity apart from being based on exploiting the rest of the world is also obtained at the expense of a great many psychological, social and environmental problems which are getting worse.

From the Islamic point of view the Primary Aim of life is spiritual development. The social organisation is a Secondary aim, a means that will facilitate the primary aim. The Economic organisation, which ought to be part of an ecological organisation (and vice versa) is a means to the secondary aim. The terms "Progress" and "Success" are understood in relation to this aim. "Regression" and "Failure" are, therefore, understood as the reverse of this.

The conditions in the West are the exact reverse of this - spiritual or psychological welfare is sacrificed to social organisation (usually understood as Politics) and that is sacrificed to Economic development (usually understood as profit, accumulation of material wealth and consumerism). The terms "Progress" and "Success" are understood in connection with this aim. There is much neurosis, psychopathy, depravity, injustice, inequality and social disintegration. A great proportion of what people own is wholly useless or even harmful. There is great unevenness in distribution, enormous waste of resources, pollution and disruption of the ecological system.

All thoughtful people reject this state of affairs.

Critic:-

Let me focus on some specifics. There are certain Islamic laws which seem to be very harsh with regard to modern society. For example:-

(1) There is the law to wage Holy War on idolaters.

(2) There is the law of death by stoning for adultery.

(3) There is the law that the hands of thieves should be cut off (or perhaps it is that an alternate hand and foot should be cut off).

(4) There are laws which confine a woman to the home.

Comment:-

(1) There is no such law. The Quran only requires self-defence and retaliation against oppressors.

(2) The Quran recommends 100 lashes for fornication and adultery. Stoning was a Jewish practice but does not appear to have been abolished in Islam. The purpose of punishing adultery is to protect the family in which he new generation is best brought up. We see Social disintegration in the West owing to the fact that there is no understanding of the sacredness of sex and therefore of the source of life.

(3) This does not apply to those who are forced by dire need, but to persistent offenders. The harshness of the punishment is proportional to how strongly things are disapproved of. However, compassion and forgiveness are also taught but not if this leads to the proliferation of the acts that do harm, thereby abolishing or reversing the very aim of the compassion. I would say that a community that tolerates theft and robbery is not a civilised society.

(4) There is no law that women should be confined to their homes. It is recommended that women should be accompanied by a male when going out. This was required in environments where it was hazardous for women to go out alone. It is still the case even in the West.

Critic:-

These laws are not practiced in many Islamic countries, but if the countries are becoming more conservative, it is an issue. And I don't think it is just a problem for 'enemies of Islam'. I guess I am technically one of these, but let me just say that in the west, more conservative countries and even states are notoriously less efficient, have less scientific progress, a lower quality of life, and quite frankly have leaders who are more corrupt. I guess what I am getting at is that there are a lot of domestic problems with conservative countries, not just external ones.

Comment:-

Yes there is corruption owing to greater poverty, less organisation, education and opportunities in these countries, and therefore, they are also technologically and scientifically backwards. But I have doubts whether it is greater than it is in Western Business and Political circles where it is much more subtle and hidden.

But it seems that you wish to judge nations and people according to the amount of material wealth and power through military means that they have. As pointed out before the prosperity in the West was gained by exploiting other nations and at the expense of many psychological, social and environmental problems.

Those in the Muslim and other countries who are striving to improve conditions in their countries can either follow the West and create the same problems by concentrating on economic growth or they can, as under socialist or communist regimes, try to concentrate on social welfare and control, or they can try to follow the Islamic Ideal and concentrate on spiritual or psychological welfare and development, so that the other social, economic and environmental welfare will follow.

"Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in their hearts." Quran 13:11

Critic:-

(1) Actually, last time I checked, adultery was going down in western countries. Also, what about contraceptives? Don't they decrease the harm resulting from adultery? The sixties in the US didn't just happen spontaneously; it resulted from contraceptives and decreased risk of pregnancy resulting from adultery.

(2) No country tolerates theft and robbery. Not only is imprisonment involved, but very few people are likely to hire someone who has robbery on their record. They are scarred for life. Even in a forgiving criminal justice system like the US you just don't want to have robbery on your record.

Comment:-

(1) How do you know it is going down? Is it not the case that the number of children born outside marriage is rising? If you define adultery strictly as sexual intercourse by married people outside their marriage then it could be seen as going down only because fewer people get married. Fornication is being excluded.

But it is not simply a matter of marriage. Sexual relationships could be genuinely loving ones where the people involved are committed to each other though no official certificate or license for this exists. The problem is depravity where people use each other for their own sexual gratification. They treat other human beings as objects to be used. This devalues human beings and also the sexuality as the source of life.

(2) Theft, robbery, swindling and fraud etc. all these things are rampant in Western countries. The Law is often accused of being too lenient and to support the offenders against the victims. I would say these things are certainly tolerated in the West. The severity of punishment under Islam not only acts as (i) a greater deterrent but also as (ii) an educational device that supports the attitude that such acts are intolerable. (iii) What is more the punishment abolishes itself by reducing the number of acts that require such punishment.

Critic:-

I think part of the issue is that while other religions seem to have some aspects that are incompatible with modern society, they have often simply taken these elements out. Again, I am not so much concerned about what the founders of Islam taught as I am about Islamic practice today. It seems like many Muslim countries not only embrace the disagreeable aspects of their religion, they actually are harsher. The Torah prescribes death for insulting your parents, but Jews don't practice this. Islamic law prescribes 100 lashes for adultery, but instead they stone people.

Comment:-

What do you mean by Modern Societies? Western ones? And why do you think that Modern is the same thing as Good or True or Useful or Beautiful? These are the values we recognise. I and many others reject utterly your subjective judgements and strive for objective ones.

But it is true that there are all kinds of human beings and they differ in their behaviour and know, understand and practice their religion to different degrees and like you confuse personal or cultural prejudices with Truth, Goodness, Usefulness and even Beauty. We would define a person or community as "Civilised" in so far as they adopt objective criteria of judgements and standards and not personal prejudices or culturally conditioned standards.

Critic:-

Well, I can tell you one thing. If any religion wanted to revert to 7th century values I would find it frightening. Like I said, every religion has its unpopular elements. Most people have the sense to tuck these elements away. My understanding is that people are saying: "We're Muslims! Our religion is so great that we don't have to modify anything!" Is this a mistaken impression?

Comment:-

What criteria are you using to make your judgement? Are you saying that values such as Truth, Good or Usefulness are identical with particular periods in time? And that the 7th century was devoid of them? Are you also rejecting the teachings of Jesus or Buddha or of the numerous other teachers of the past that were responsible for the rise of civilisations? Is everything in the 20th or 21st century good everywhere in the world or even only the USA?

As already pointed out, we go by objective values of Truth, Goodness and Usefulness. These are everywhere the same though different things are certainly applicable in different circumstances. It is, for instance, wrong to kill other human beings, but under certain circumstances such as self-defensive wars it is justifiable if the good done or the evil counteracted is greater. Though circumstances do have to be taken into consideration, the fact is that the judgement still depends on certain basic criteria that refer to ultimate purposes and goals.

But you are probably making the common mistake of confusing what people do with the values that the teachings present. Yes, people differ in intelligence, education, spiritual development and culture and their various physical, social and political environments and circumstances differ and these affect their behaviour. People also get habituated physically and mentally to their various cultures. This is so even today everywhere as in the past.

Because of this conditioning things would always remain the same were it not for the fact that people have value systems that make them seek Truth, Goodness and Usefulness and Beauty. That is what leads to human development. It is not claimed that people called Muslims are any better than others. It is a question of establishing a value system that promoted spiritual development and a social system that will facilitate human development rather than one that leads to human degeneration. This requires that the objective values be introduced into the community which will then appoint those with the greatest wisdom, virtue and ability to control affairs, and that the primary function of these leaders is to facilitate the development of that community.

Question:-

The History of Islam, ancient and contemporary, present certain puzzles to many people and some answers would be appreciated.

The first is this: How did Muhammad find support from his Christian friends in Ethiopia if he was teaching the messages that the Quran presents?

(1) Quran Sura 4:156 says: And for their saying, 'Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God.' Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness.

(2) Quran Sura 4:169 says: O ye people of the Book! The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which He conveyed into Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from himself.

(3)Quran Sura 5:56 says: O believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his friends, he surely is one of them! God will not guide evil doers.

(4) The Christians such as The Negus of Abyssinia, among whom Muhammad found such willing support would surely have labelled Muhammad as antichrist. They would not have been supportive of his agenda if indeed his teachings and life reflected such as is indicated in the Koran passages above. Christians accept the following passages, pertaining to antichrist;

1 John 2:22 says: Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 2:23 says: Whosoever denies the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 4:3 says: And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Comment:-

(1) This is not a correct translation but an interpretation. A better translation is:-

"And because of their (the Jews) boastful saying: Verily, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, - but they killed him not, nor did they crucify him, but it was obscured for them (or it appeared so to them). And verily, those who differ about him are in doubt concerning him; they have no knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture. Certainly, they slew him not! Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; for Allah is ever Mighty and Wise!" 4:156-157

The verse is speaking about the Jews. They did not crucify Jesus or kill him. Jesus was taken up to God. According to Jesus: No man takes his life - he lays it down himself. John 10:17-18

According to Luke 24:36-45 The disciples thought he was dead and therefore, when Jesus appeared among them, they thought he was a ghost. But he showed them that he was still flesh and bones. So he had not died. But he may have seemed dead as many people do to this day.

The death and resurrection of Christ, therefore, most probably refers to the death of faith when he was crucified and the disciples fled, and its revival when he reappeared. The Christian converts to Islam probably understood all this.

(2) Jesus was certainly a human being, born of a woman, needing food, water and air. He, like all men also had the Spirit of God within him and this, unlike most other human beings was not dormant but active.

(3) The ban on friendship applies to persons who try to mislead Muslims by word, deed or example, away from Islam. The Quran also says:-

"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of your religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of your religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up others in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust." 60:8-9

"They are not all alike. Of the people of the Book there is an upright community, reciting the revelations of Allah throughout the night, falling prostrate (in Surrender). They believe in Allah, and in the last day, and bid intelligent (or right) conduct, and forbid what is stupid (or wrong), and vie with one another in good works; these are among the righteous." 3:113-114

"Thou wilt surely find that the strongest in enmity against those who believe are the Jews and the idolaters (Pagans); and thou wilt find the nearest in love to those who believe to be those who say: We are Christians. That is because there are amongst them men devoted to learning (or priests) and men who have renounced the world (or monks), and because they are not proud." 5:82

(4) Islam does not deny that Jesus is the Messiah.

The NT defines the "Son of God" as those who are led by the Spirit or Word of God. Romans 8:14, John 1:12-13 and John 10:34-38

In this last verse Jesus was quoting Psalms 82:6 in the OT - obviously this is not taken literally by Jews - i.e. the Jews are not "gods and children of the most high" in the physical sense.

No doubt the Christians in the past understood all this.

Question:-

Why are Muslims against Christians?. There appears to be a Jihad against the US and it's people. What is the basis for this?

Comment:-

Muslims have lived peacefully with Christians for centuries in Muslim countries. It is only recently that troubles have arisen between the two religions owing to Christian attacks on Muslims as was the case in the past under the Crusades. However, the present campaign against the USA, which is supported only by a small minority of Muslims, is not against Christianity and its values but against the very opposite, against what are regarded as anti-Islamic perverse and depraved Satanic influences that are invading and corrupting Muslim lands and people.

The Jihad is not really against the US people but against the power group that runs the US Government, Corporations and Media of Information. But when there is a struggle between organisations or nations it is people who suffer - e.g. the two world wars. But, in so far as it is claimed that the US is a Democracy, the people can be held responsible for what their government does and have to take the consequences. This was not the case in Iraq for instance where many thousands of people were killed by Americans though they did not elect their government and that government did not kill or threaten Americans. The same can be said about Afghanistan. They did not attack or invade the USA.

This US power group is recognised as a global Terrorist Organisation that also creates, supports, finances and arms other terrorist organisations world wide and provokes the arising of terrorists in retaliation. It runs political, economic and propaganda policies in its own interest at the expense of the welfare of others and at the expense of truth, justice and benevolence. It maintains military establishments in many parts of the world to bully other nations. Like any criminal gang, they kill, injure, torture, rob, destroys property, lie, deceive, coerce, blackmail, oppress, manipulate information and people, exploit, sabotages, defame, undermine, threaten and terrorise other people and nations and undertake to destabilise other governments creating chaos, mass murders, mutilation, impoverishment, destruction and suffering.

They hypocritically proclaims to champion Democracy, Human Rights, Freedom, and Civilisation but support Dictatorships, Tyrannies and they practice and propagate barbarities, atrocities, depravities, and denies others the freedom and means to pursue their own ambitions and ideals.

An examination of recent US history shows that its government, corporations or agencies have been involved in subversions and military involvements in the following:-

Among the tyrants and terrorists supplied with money, arms and training by the US government through its Secret Agencies, the CIA are the following:-

Bin Laden and Al Qaeda; Sadam Hussain, the Iraqi Dictator, Suharto (the Indonesian Dictator), Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia that massacred over 2 million people; General Pinochet, the Chilean Dictator who overthrew the democratically elected regime in Chile and instituted a reign of terror; General Galtieri, head of the Military Junta that ruled in Argentina; various terrorists in Bolivia, Guatemala and El Salvador; the kingdoms of Saudi Arabia; the Israelis in their tyranny against the Palestinians; the oppressive regimes in Algerian and Columbia, helping these to suppress democratic movements there. They invaded Vietnam, killing and mutilated thousands, committing many atrocities and destroying the country with chemical weapons. They helped set up the "Democratic" regime in Haiti that allowed American businesses to plunder and impoverish the people. The USA invaded Columbia on the pretext of breaking the Drug trade while the USA is the biggest consumer of these drugs and the CIA made a great deal of its money from the drug trade. And many countries were bombed or invaded by expeditionary forces.

If Muslim countries had not also suffered from US interference there would not have been any movement against them. Muslims, like others have their own Values and Ideals and do not want foreign ones to be imposed on them. This is tyranny. But it can hardly be denied that US supports the undemocratic kingdom of Arabia and that the Dictator in Pakistan is an American puppet supported by a military financed to a large extent by the USA, that Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded with much loss of life and destruction in order to set up puppet regimes that would serve US interests. The US is seen as an aggressor against Muslims and against Islam (as many prominent US people attack Islam verbally and the government wants to impose US values on Muslims). What is more, it is also seen by many as being like a virus infection on the globe that has to be stopped for the sake of the welfare and development of mankind, but at least some communities need to protect themselves from the disease.

Though much is said about the freedom of information, the fact is that information is selected, suppressed, distorted and invented to suit the power group and propagated in an intense, loud and repeated manner and with subtle emotional techniques that amount to brain washing while the opinions and ideas of the other side are ignored or suppressed or negatively distorted.

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