RCP: Let's start with the basics: why does No Child Left Behind deserve to be reauthorized?

SPELLINGS: Well, for lots of great reasons, and first let me say if we don't do it this year I think it's probably a pretty good handicap to say it'll be 2009 before a law can pass - the end of '09 - with rule thinking to follow. I mean, it'll be a long time before new rules and so forth are written, so time is of the essence as we march toward 2014 to strengthen NCLB and to make the law more workable.

If people care about resources, which obviously lots of folks do - I learned from my Texas days that reform plus resources equals results - this is the time that funding can and should be debated.

So, for a variety of great reasons. But I think most importantly is building on what we've learned over the last four or five years, and effecting and tweaking the law and making it workable while holding true to our shared goal of every single kid proficient by 2014.

RCP: You've said there have been lessons learned over the past five years. What are some of those lessons?

SPELLINGS: Well, I sometimes also say we passed the very best law we could five years ago. We have probably about half the states who did annual assessments. We didn't know as much about our schools in this country as we do now today. And we ought to act on that information.

Some of the things that have emerged are the ability to have an accountability system that recognizes growth and progress over time. That can only be done when we have our annual measurement systems and fits with what's called in the trade, the debate about the growth model.

Right now NCLB compares this year's 3rd graders with next year's 3rd graders and the year after's 3rd graders. A growth kind of notion gives us the opportunity to chart the progress of individual kids and groups of kids over time as the go through the system. So that's a better and potentially more precise, more accurate accountability mechanism for schools - and for kids for that matter. So that's the first thing.

The other thing we're hearing a lot about are issues that relate to special education and limited-English kids. I think we can provide a more nuanced accountability system that makes distinctions about schools that are within range of meeting targets in those chronic, chronic underperformers year after year. NCLB really right now functions kind of as a pass-fail system and doesn't allow for much gradation along the spectrum, and I think we can be more precise about that.

I'm being way to wonky with you, I know, but....

RCP: That's okay.

SPELLINGS: You ask a wonky question, you get a wonky answer.

RCP: (Laughter) That's right. As you know, there's been sort of a mini-revolt in Congress and in some of the states - you were just in Connecticut yesterday and I'm sure heard about it there - and the 2 main issues seem to be that the testing is too rigid and that there's not enough dollars. You just mentioned the growth model as the answer to the first part of that question perhaps, but what about the second part of the question?

SPELLINGS: Resources in Washington, and at the state legislative level, and the local school board are a perennial issue, and they will continue to be. Funding for education is up more than 40% since the President took office. As I said, I think the prospects for additional resources are far greater when the law is being debated and renewed and strengthened than they are in the absence of that. Again, if you care a lot about adequacy of resources, the time is now.

RCP: But there was a report that just came out this week showing that the federal portion of the spending pie has increased to about 9.1%, and I believe when the debate started it was somewhere around seven -

SPELLINGS: Probably more like eight. It's up a percentage or so...

RCP: Ok. Is 9% where it should be? If not 9%, what should it be?

SPELLINGS: Well, that's kind of a how many angels are on the head of a pin kind of discussion. I think the point is, in Washington we're always going to be a minority investor in education. Whether it's 8% or 10% or 9.2% is to me less material than what is the proper role - vigorous but discreet - for the federal level. And I think asking for results for taxpayer investments on behalf of our nation's neediest students, which has been the 40-year commitment of the federal role in education is the right balance.

The thing that's so important about NCLB is instead of just asking, "how much do we spend?" we're now asking "how are our kids doing?" And that only happened five years ago.

RCP: The angle that I'm trying to get at is that some Republicans in Congress said they 'held their nose' to vote for this last time around, and I believe the vote in the House was 381-41 and 87-10 in the Senate -

SPELLINGS: Yeah, that was a pretty huge bipartisan - I was a domestic policy advisor for 4 years and I can't think of anything that came close to that.

RCP: Right. But one of the complaints was that the original bill was written by Ted Kennedy, and obviously this time around it certainly is going to be written by Ted Kennedy. Democrats certainly want increased funding. How much is that going to pose a problem for building the sort of bipartisan coalition you want for this bill?

SPELLINGS: Well, first let me just say this about that: obviously Ted Kennedy had an important role last time, as did Judd Gregg, John Boehner, the President, all of those - obviously Congressman Miller as well. This is a place where - 87-10 in the Senate, that's strong bipartisan support. The President has been very, very much in support of this law since its passage, so to say this is Ted Kennedy's law is just not accurate.

With respect to resources, as I said, sure, we're going to have additional funds for education. We have every year in every level of government I've ever been involved with. The President has asked for more than a billion dollars. Obviously, the Democrats want more than that, and I'm sure a happy place somewhere between the figures will be found at the end of the day, as it always is.

RCP: You've been in charge of the department since 2005. What's been your fondest moment and/or greatest accomplishment so far?

SPELLINGS: Oh, there have been so many it's hard to narrow it down. (Pause) That was a little joke, Tom. (Laughter) Of course I'm very, very proud of NCLB. It's been a huge game-changer in this country, to the good of minority and poor kids. Is there anxiety about it out there with grownups? Yes, there is. If we're going to continue to be the world's leader and innovator we have to do a much better job than getting half of the minority kids out of high school on time. We have to really, really focus on this achievement gap that is plaguing the development of those individuals and ultimately will this country. And so I'm proud of that work and I think it's thrown a spotlight on this issue as never before.

And I think to the extent we've worked collaboratively with the Hill and with state policy makers and so forth to bring about the progress that's been made over the last five years is a huge deal. Literally, there are nearly 50 million school children in the system of America, and now we have 50 state accountability plans that are approved, we have standards in place, know how we're doing, we're looking ourselves in the mirror. All of that is powerful.

Secondly on the list - because it's been so much associated kind of uniquely with me and my term - is the vigorous discussion we're having on higher education for the first time in a long time. Shortly after I was named I appointed this commission - a year ago, September of last year, actually - acting on the more enlarged debate because it's becoming more and more critical to our citizens.

RCP: What about biggest disappointments so far?

SPELLINGS: Oh, gosh, I don't really - I mean I haven't even thought about that. I don't think I have an answer for that, to tell you the truth. Have I had disappointments? Sure. I wish we could go faster. But I understand what's necessary to bring people around and to build consensus, and I understand that we're just one player in this equation of improving public schools. So I guess I feel a sense of urgency, and I sometimes get a little impatient.

RCP: Going back to NCLB real quick. How do you see the debate playing out over the next couple of months in terms of the timetable, how confident are you that you'll be able to build the sort of support you need to get this thing signed and when will it get signed?

SPELLINGS: Oh gosh, I'm not to try and handicap the Congress, that's dangerous business. I do think that both bodies are on course to get this done before the end of the year. The House will soon begin markup and the Senate will follow thereafter. Floor action will happen either shortly before or after the August recess, certainly in one body. Anyway, we're on track and there's lot of work going on.

You know, when I hear people say "well, I'm not going to vote for NCLB in its current form" and I would just say, "no one is asking you to." We should make improvements to this law. That's why we have reauthorizations. I've never heard of a reauthorization that no change was made to the initial statute. And this is an 1,100 page bill or something.

RCP: Have you had discussions with Republicans in the House who've brought up the alternate bill, Rep. Blunt and his proposal -

SPELLINGS: Yes, I've talked to lots of people on all sides of the aisle, including folks who are concerned about additional flexibility in the system, which of course the president has proposed as well. But we cannot go back to the "put the money out and hope for the best" strategy where there is no accountability for federal dollars, and that's not a good idea whether it's coming from the teachers union or whether it's coming from conservatives.

RCP: One of the gripes of Republicans last time around was that school choice provisions in the bill were completely watered down. Is that an accurate assessment in your opinion of what happened last time around and is there any hope of -

SPELLINGS: Not at all accurate. I just want to say, for the record, this president has done more for parent options of school choice than any president in the history of our country. Period. Paragraph. And it's not even close.

We have the DC pilot program - choice program- here in its second year. We have millions of kids who are enjoying the opportunity to get additional supplement services, additional tutoring with federal dollars. We have kids who are transferring among public schools as a condition of school accountability that is part of NCLB. Should we do more? Yes. Have we done a ton? You bet.

RCP: Let me ask one question about 2008, since we are focused on politics, mostly. Do you think the current crop of candidates on the Republican side is doing enough to address the issue of education?

SPELLINGS: Well, you know, I don't know. I'm focused on trying to get the work that the president wants to get done here in Washington done, which is primarily reauthorizing NCLB and moving out on higher education. So, I'm not the best person to ask about what's going on in the campaign on education on either side of the aisle, truthfully.

RCP: So you haven't paid attention to what's the candidates are proposing?

SPELLINGS: Well, I generally read the paper, but it seems like they're talking a lot about Iraq and healthcare and what not, and education is not so much on the radar as far as I can tell.

RCP: How confident are you that this bill (NCLB) is going to get passed? Do you have complete confidence?

SPELLINGS: I'm cautiously optimistic.

RCP: Cautiously optimistic.

SPELLINGS: Yes. I mean, it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of good will from a lot of parties, but I'm confident that the ingredients are there for us to be successful this year. I would say that, I think both Chairmen would say that, and I think the Ranking Members would say that, and I talk to them all the time.