Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 09:04:13 -0500 From: "S.McInneshin" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hey all, I stumbled on this book about a year ago and I found the characters and the plot engaging for a few reasons. First, as a historian I'm trained to be critical of the objective point-of-view; truth is a tricky business. Nevertheless, I find the idea of a universal truth, or at least the process of truth gathering, rather curious and compelling. Second, I don't get to read as much feminist s/f/f as I'd like but just from my occasional dips into the literature I seem to find few fantastic quest-driven novels. Third, I found the relationship between Rowan and Bel to be a curious one (and I think I say this realizing I've read the first three books in the series and have had a chance to see a relationship develop). So, with that said: 1) What did y'all think of the book? 2) What did y'all think of the way Kirstein approaches the idea of truth and the relationship between truth, the steerswomen, wizards, and the common folk? Is truth universal, or can truth be universal? Would you say that truth is seen as a property of the intellectual or privileged? Is this a limiting way to see truth, or is it liberating? I ask this question because Kirstein builds a world where truth is a form of wealth for the steerswomen and they are revered as repositories of knowledge. In American society, Americans tend toward anti-intellectualism and tend to be wary of overly educated folk. I can't speak for other cultures (and I really shouldn't speak for Americans in general). 3) Was the world building convincing? The characters likeable? What do you think is Bel's purpose in the book? Hmmm, okay that's it for now. Thanks, Seulky - “You are out of your mind.” “That’s between me and my mind.” -- Firefly ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:33:35 -0400 From: "Lehman, Crystal A" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi ... I don't have much time on my hands at the moment or else I'd love to respond to your post at length, BUT I just wanted to pop in and note that there is also a 4th book in this series -- "The Language of Power." It just came out (and it was good!). :) So if ya don't have it, you might want to check it out. -Crystal ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 23:16:29 -0500 From: "S.McInneshin" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Excellent, thank you! I'll go check it out. Lehman, Crystal A wrote: >Hi ... I don't have much time on my hands at the moment or else I'd >love to respond to your post at length, BUT I just wanted to pop in and note >that there is also a 4th book in this series -- "The Language of Power." >It just came out (and it was good!). :) So if ya don't have it, you might >want to check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:13:21 -0700 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU There's an interview with Kirstein on Del Rey's web site: http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/DRIN/DRIN_links.html#sea She talks about how the Steerswoman's world was invented. The newest book in the series is out - I can't wait to get my hands on it, except that I know it will be over all too soon... Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:53:43 +1000 From: Julieanne Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU At 02:13 PM 5/10/04, Jennifer Krauel wrote: >There's an interview with Kirstein on Del Rey's web site: >http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/DRIN/DRIN_links.html#sea >She talks about how the Steerswoman's world was invented. The newest book >in the series is out - I can't wait to get my hands on it, except that I >know it will be over all too soon... I've just finished the 4th book, 'Language of Power', and can't wait for the 5th, 6th, 7th books, to be followed by a Prequel! There's also a good review of the series on FemSpeak webzine at http://www.femspeak.net, and a long series of discussion threads on FemSpeak webzine's "Book Nook" discussion forum. Cheers Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:56:14 -0400 From: Gaile Pohlhaus Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Oct 04- The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU OCTOBER 2004 > Kirstein, Rosemary: The Steerswoman's Road. Del Rey (2003); > ISBN: 0345461053; List Price: $15.95 > Seulky will kick-off the discussion on Monday, Oct. 4, 2004. I was intrigued by the relationship between Rowan and Bel myself , so much so that I got the third book to follow up only to find Bel gone but not forgotten. I was a bit amazed to read that there were going to be 7 books in the series. I'm not sure my interest will last that long. I am almost tempted to write what I think the last sentence of the last book will be and seal it in a dated envelope. Gaile ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:38:34 -0500 From: "S.McInneshin" Subject: [*FSFFU*] Less on Spamming more on Reading Books To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU All, As long as we are talking about writing and books, feel free to discuss Kirstein's book (I know this is the general forum and not the book discussion forum, but I thought I'd try and drum up interest). I hope my questions weren't too much. I see that others have read it and enjoyed it. And Gaile, I'm dying to know why you think you'd know what the last sentence of the book is. May I ask where your thoughts are going? -- “You are out of your mind.” “That’s between me and my mind.” -- Firefly ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:17:11 -0700 From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I'm still working my way through this book. I haven't heard any responses from anyone who is not enough of a fan to be two or three sequels down the road. I sort of like the book. Not as much, say, as I used to like Xena and Gabrielle, but that is a different story and a different medium. But to stay with the analogy, I find the book about as well written as Warrior Princess. The details and description are dead, but more maddening is the way the author always over explains. I think this is why I'm still working my way through it: I am not compelled to keep turning pages. Now sometimes you don't want to rush through a book, you want to sip it, ingest it, linger over it. But Steerswoman is not that type of book. Having gotten that criticism off my chest, I am engaged by the idea of Steerswomen. And it's fairly engaging to see how the idea of technology-as-magic will enfold, and how Rowan, the smart Steerswoman, aided by techno-wonderboy Will (seemingly a new sidekick) will piece it all together. As to the Bel/Rowan dynamic and relationship: okay, you have the cerebral and the physical; the wisdom and the practical; the tall and the short; the singer and the non-singer; the fiery and the calm. Nancy Drew and George. They seem to be too conveniently complementary, too obviously foils for each other. Perhaps the book gets better. I'd love to hear opinions from first-time readers who have finished the book!. (And I am enjoying it: I've read a lot worse books and enjoyed them; it's just that this one is a little slow and clunky -- not bad, though.) Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 13:24:31 -0700 From: Margaret McBride Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I had read the first 2 books earlier and kept them on my shelf for the "fun" elements. Here's what I mean: I generally prefer science fiction over fantasy and I generally keep only novels that are a little more thought-provoking, more on issues/how we deal with each other etc. than I find this one to be. But I love the gathering hints that this world has a technological background that the people are unaware of--example, the nomads use the clock times to indicate direction and the steerswoman's speculation of why the circle starts at 12 instead of 1. Although this is what I would call an entertaining, plot-driven novel, I liked it and I think the world-building is well done. The description of being in an alien ecology was believable for me. The characters and how the wandering tribes are organized seemed workable and also raised some interesting questions. The whole premise of the steerspeople having to answer questions and why they "disfellowship" anyone who refuses to answer or lies to them is an example of why I read science fiction--that "you're not in Kansas anymore" feeling, the realization that what we consider normal modes of organizing society and seeing our world are not the only legitmate ways. Any one want to talk more about the feminist aspects--how the tribes deal with marriage, leadership, warriors etc. with regard to gender issues? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 19:59:32 -0400 From: "Lehman, Crystal A" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Susan, What I noticed about this is that while the Rowan/Bel dynamic comes across as that cerebral/physical, wise/practical, tall/short (well, okay, ya can't really argue with that one), singer/nonsinger, fiery/calm, etc., Kirstein does at different points throughout the books try to point to ways in which that pattern DOESN'T hold true. She goes to some lengths, for example, to point out that (a) Bel is very intelligent, and (b) Rowan can't integrate that fact right away because she expects Bel to be backward/slow. So that's something. :) Also, Rowan is not -- and Steerswomen, in general, are not -- utterly cerebral and physically unfit/weak. Rowan can be pretty mean w/ a weapon! I do believe Rowan even sings or performs in some way eventually, somewhere along the line. ;) But, all in all, I think the Bel-Rowan relationship still comes across as a bit ridiculously complementary/opposites/foils. And perhaps the stressing of the deviations from that pattern actually serve to accentuate it rather than to disrupt it. That said, I *do* like these books quite a bit -- enough to buy all the ones that have come out so far, and to keep up with release dates and all that. :) Crystal (who has been on the list a while, but has only started speaking recently -- should I be introducing myself a little first, or what?) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 10:20:25 +1000 From: Julieanne Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU At 06:24 AM 9/10/04, Margaret McBride wrote: >But I love the gathering hints that this world has a technological >background that the people are unaware of--example, the nomads use >the clock times to indicate direction and the steerswoman's speculation >of why the circle starts at 12 instead of 1. Although this is what I would >call an entertaining, plot-driven novel, I liked it and I think the >world-building is well done. I see the Outskirters as fighter pilots, the use of the 360 degree circle directions, (or "clock" directions), is air force - they deploy in defence perimeters, and use military reconnaissance tactics. The wizards inexplicable "wars" as well - Red and Blue, changing allegiances for no rhyme or reason etc - military 'war games' - military exercises. I found it interesting with the Outskirters, education without literacy, as Rowan's Innerlander peoples arrogantly consider the Outskirters primitive barbarians, but are startled when they use words like "hyperbole" to describe their own form of epic poetry. I loved the way Rosemary Kirstein does the world-building through Rowan's eyes - Rowan is just as arrogant and condescending as the wizards, given her limited knowledge. Kirstein also makes fun of us readers, challenging the biases of our own assumed knowledge. The Outskirters, seen through Rowan's eyes, as well as our own, are presented as classic primitive nomads, or "noble savages", at one with the natural world and so on. I found it a delightful twist, when we realise they hate the redgrass, and do everything they can to kill it. The goats at least, have been genetically engineered, and possibly the people too - socially engineered to an extent, to live the way they do to help kill the redgrass. Their society - their goats etc - were deliberately designed the way they are. The first seyoh Rowan meets tells her "As our goats are to us, so you Innerlanders are to the wizards". I also like the "surprise" mystery element in Kirstein's writing - I usually dislike mystery stories, but the plot-twists are so entertaining and often unexpected - I often don't see them coming. At first I thought the world was a post- nuclear holocaust Earth, and all the odd creatures, mutated strains - all the cultures have a common memory of a moon, so I thought the moon must have been blown up in a nuclear holocaust. And I still think the wood-gnomes are monkeys :) Seeing the world through Rowan's eyes, with her limited knowledge, her own cultural biases etc - makes the reader misinterpret some scenes - for example, we see Shammer and Dhree as "children" - because Rowan does. Rowan's occasional arrogance and condescension towards the Outskirters, is mirrored when Fletcher, Corvus etc are in turn, startled by Rowan's leaps of logic and insight. >The description of being in an alien >ecology was believable for me. The characters and how the wandering >tribes are organized seemed workable and also raised some interesting >questions. I liked the writing style as well, the world is so vividly portrayed - Kirstein makes it feel like you are wandering across the landscape, right alongside Rowan and Bel. In the redgrass, I often felt what Rowan was feeling - the disorientation, the constant visual and auditory assault, eg the constant background rattle, rattle, rattle - Rowan feeling like she was seasick, and off-balance, I found myself feeling queasy! The alien descriptions in the 3rd book, I felt was one of the best "alien first contact" stories I've ever read. >The whole premise of the steerspeople having to answer >questions and why they "disfellowship" >anyone who refuses to answer or lies to them is an example of why I read >science fiction--that "you're not in Kansas anymore" feeling, I found it fascinating too - with the occasional hint dropped into conversations and often missed on first reading. The very first Steerswoman shows up in the records about 200 years after the first records, and also shows up around the time of the first wizard in Wulfshaven - At first the Steerswoman is friendly with the wizard, but it didn't last long. I see the Steerswomen's truth ideal, like walking databases or libraries - like computer databases, garbage-in, garbage-out - their data had to be accurate. Their job was to teach the new Innerlanders knowledge about agriculture, medicine, metallurgy, literacy etc. The original 'First People' the Face people or Outskirters, by necessity, could not keep knowledge of such things. Deliberate social engineering again. >Any one want to talk more about the feminist aspects--how the tribes deal >with marriage, leadership, warriors etc. with regard to gender issues? I saw all the cultures as gender-egalitarian. The only imbalance seems to be between the Steerswomen and the wizards, mostly women and a few men in one, and mostly men and a few women in the other. But both the Innerlanders and Outskirters were mostly egalitarian - and I found the Outskirters courtship rituals hilarious, and they obviously found it fun too - nobody ever really knows who's courting who! Children are mostly raised within the mothers social groups, fathers are recognised in lineages, but may or may not have a role, depending on personal choices/preferences of all the parties involved, very social and communal, again - that military influence - like communal barracks, and their "line" between the defence corps and the service people - and unusual cultural things, like "thank you" is only spoken "across the line". Their counting of lineages, back through the female line to the first 112 mothers was interesting, all neatly relayed in alphabetical order. I found these books, could be read and enjoyed on a number of levels - rollicking action/adventure, teasing suspense and mystery, fantasy and sci-fi, and I suspect Rosemary Kirstein had fun & twisted and played with all the classic themes of many genres - heroic adventure/fantasy, even mystery and sleuthing classics - and all with a twist to the reader. But like a lot of "Journey" stories, or "On-the-Road" stories - its not where you get to that matters so much, as how you get there. Cheers - - Julieanne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 07:25:35 -0400 From: davebelden Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I have been in a work blitz and unable to comment, but I am one of the first-time readers of the book, and have managed to finish the first book and have reached chapter 12 in the second. This may be as far as I get - so many great books out there and this one isn't grabbing me enough. This listserve has introduced me to some brilliant books that I would not otherwise have read, but I haven't found this to be one of them. There are some things that I do like very much about it, though, and it's best to start with them. First, it's about science and magic, and it seems to be written from a scientific point of view: in other words it's a quest for truth, and the Steerswomen are looking for naturalistic explanations rather than magical ones. I think. This seemed clearer to me in the first book than the second, but maybe only because I haven't read far enough in that. Gunpowder plays a big role in the first book, and is presented as magic, but you have to think that Rowan's curiosity about it is leading her towards a scientific understanding of it. She does after all work out that the Guidestars are artificial objects in orbit. This is a great and wonderful theme, and it's just great to see science fiction and magical fantasy meet in this way - and I am rooting for the scientist in Rowan to win, but she still accepts that various things are indeed magic, and the way the world is presented, I wonder if the author doesn't also, which I find quite confusing! I want answers! I do have problems with this whole aspect of the novels. Things don't seem well-thought out or realistic. How does a young boy invent gunpowder, and not only to make big bangs with it, but learn how to create and set the right charges to have the effects he desires, and demolish one of the great castles of his world? If the explanation is he's a born wizard and it comes to him magically, then OK, if it's a magical world. But if it's a realistic non-magical world, then it takes more than a child genius to do it. It just does. These things are invented and refined over many years, with a number of people experimenting with chemicals for various other reasons (e.g. alchemy, medicine, printing), and getting to know the properties of things etc etc. There is a brilliant science fiction book about the re-invention of gunpowder long after a nuclear holocaust, Riddley Walker, by Russell Hoban, one of my favorite books, so maybe I was bound to feel disappointed by what I felt was a very sloppy treatment of the idea. A second good thing about the book is its gender roles - they are presented without explanation, as if they don't need explaining, which I suppose is a nice development of our society that we are taking equal roles enough for granted that we accept them in a novel like this. Except that, being a skeptic and a sociologically inclined person, I didn't. I think an agricultural society that is as radically egalitarian as this needs an explanation. All actual agricultural societies beyond a certain stage of development that we know of have been more or less (and a lot more than this book) patriarchal. There seem to be reasons for this - I won't list them. We have books full of reasons why things happened on this earth as they did, and explanations too of why modern city economies have favored a revolution of women's rights. So now one of those modern women writes a fantasy of an agricultural society where the women are equal, and include great warriors (with the unexplained exception, as someone already pointed out, most of the wizards are men. Ammonite, the book we read recently that featured women warriors, had a full and satisfying explanation for them. This book doesn't. But then Steerswoman's Road is full of puzzles that are not explained. Why are people in this society multicolored, shading from very light to very dark skinned? In a stable, agricultural society like this, with so little trade outside its borders that even the experts don't have maps of much, people intermarry and get a homogenous look to them. How do you maintain different colors? Maybe the genetics of these people are different? What are the genetics of this place anyway? It is full of named earth species - birch, spruce, scrub pine, blackberry, duck, rabbit etc. So as someone else wrote you start to think of it as a post-collapse-of-civilization earth, and then along come the dragons, the humming demons etc. This should be intriguing and some find it so, but I found myself asking so many questions and finding that the answers seemed to be so long delayed in coming that I am losing the curiosity to continue. How did those satellites get put up there? How does Rowan even come to imagine that they are satellites? That was the single crucial discovery of the first book, and yet I never understood how she made that intuitive leap. Yes, we see her wrestle at length with the mathematics of ballistics, and how fast an object would have to go to escape gravity, and even how it might hang falling above the turning world - again, like the boy inventing gunpowder, the mathematics of this seemed an unlikely achievement for one person, but unlike Willam (or what we're told about Willam) she did have a tradition of scholars arguing about these things, so I bought that even though her intuitive leap was Einsteinian in scope. But what would ever have given her the notion that human beings could have had a technology strong enough to launch satellites? There is nothing at all in her world that suggests it. The lack of anything even approaching it - like a cannon for instance - is one of the reasons the Steersfolk think her ideas are ridiculous. The actual explanation has to be that there was a humongous technological civilization on her world earlier, or that around the other side of the world there is one now, but we don't see her thinking about that in the way we see her thinking about ballistics. There are other hints that this is so, like the wizards' electric lights. Clearly the wizards have superior technology, rather than magic, but how did Rowan work that out about the satellites? It's like writing a detective story and having the brilliant detective work out the answer without the reader knowing how she got there. Even by the end of the first book it's not at all clear why the wizards want to kill her. Then I hear there are seven books planned. Oh no - I'm going to have wait that long to find out the answers to all these questions? At the moment Rowan and Bel are wandering through the Outskirts, and I agree that there is some wonderful description of the weird landscape and customs, but it's too much of a road movie for me, I guess, I want to know we are going somewhere, I want some confidence that the author has put this huge mishmash of science and magic, earth and alien species, radical egalitarianism and multi-racialism, nomadic tribes and medieval agriculture and satellites together for a purpose other than the fun of seeing it in print. I want to know how it came about, how a proto-scientist (Rowan) can find the answers, because really I read and write this kind of literature to work out puzzles about this world, and why we are as we are. That's not the whole problem - I love a well told story, and if these seven books had been condensed down to one or two, I think I would love this. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 07:31:13 -0600 From: PAT MATHEWS Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU >From: davebelden > >I do have problems with this whole aspect of the novels. Things don't seem >well-thought out or realistic. How does a young boy invent gunpowder, and >not only to make big bangs with it, but learn how to create and set the >right charges to have the effects he desires, and demolish one of the great >castles of his world? If the explanation is he's a born wizard and it comes >to him magically, then OK, if it's a magical world. But if it's a realistic >non-magical world, then it takes more than a child genius to do it. It just >does. These things are invented and refined over many years, with a number >of people experimenting with chemicals for various other reasons (e.g. >alchemy, medicine, printing), and getting to know the properties of things >etc etc. There is a brilliant science fiction book about the re-invention >of >gunpowder long after a nuclear holocaust, Riddley Walker, by Russell Hoban, >one of my favorite books, so maybe I was bound to feel disappointed by what >I felt was a very sloppy treatment of the idea. > >A second good thing about the book is its gender roles - they are presented >without explanation, as if they don't need explaining, which I suppose is a >nice development of our society that we are taking equal roles enough for >granted that we accept them in a novel like this. > >Except that, being a skeptic and a sociologically inclined person, I >didn't. >I think an agricultural society that is as radically egalitarian as this >needs an explanation. All actual agricultural societies beyond a certain >stage of development that we know of have been more or less (and a lot more >than this book) patriarchal. There seem to be reasons for this - I won't >list them. We have books full of reasons why things happened on this earth >as they did, and explanations too of why modern city economies have favored >a revolution of women's rights. So now one of those modern women writes a >fantasy of an agricultural society where the women are equal, and include >great warriors (with the unexplained exception, as someone already pointed >out, most of the wizards are men. Ammonite, the book we read recently that >featured women warriors, had a full and satisfying explanation for them. >This book doesn't. OK. Good questions both. I wondered about the latter, if not the former. >But then Steerswoman's Road is full of puzzles that are not explained. Why >are people in this society multicolored, shading from very light to very >dark skinned? In a stable, agricultural society like this, with so little >trade outside its borders that even the experts don't have maps of much, >people intermarry and get a homogenous look to them. How do you maintain >different colors? Maybe the genetics of these people are different? Dave - this is NOT a stable pre-industrial society. From Book One it's fair;ly obvious that this is a colony, planted a few hundred years ago and still confined to a small area. Given that the founders were a mixed lot, this picture is quite reasonable. Look at the wide variety in America's African-American population over a similar period of time. >What are the genetics of this place anyway? It is full of named earth species - >birch, spruce, scrub pine, blackberry, duck, rabbit etc. So as someone else >wrote you start to think of it as a post-collapse-of-civilization earth, >and then along come the dragons, the humming demons etc. This should be >intriguing and some find it so, but I found myself asking so many questions >and finding that the answers seemed to be so long delayed in coming that I >am losing the curiosity to continue. Given that it's a colony, it's easy to deduce that the founders bought a full Noah's Ark of embryos and seeds with them, thinking the local wildlife was just that - wildlife, nonsentient. The dragons, BTW, ARE explained in LANGUAGE OF POWER. But isn't it suspicious that they strike only when and where the wizards want them to? >How did those satellites get put up there? The "colony" hypothesis answers that, too. >How does Rowan even come to >imagine that they are satellites? That was the single crucial discovery of >the first book, and yet I never understood how she made that intuitive >leap. She doesn't. She first reasons that the stuff fell from somewhere. A high cliff? Then she does the math. Then she realizes what they are - because she knows about the Guidestars and they fit that pattern. >Yes, we see her wrestle at length with the mathematics of ballistics, and >how fast an object would have to go to escape gravity, and even how it >might >hang falling above the turning world - again, like the boy inventing >gunpowder, the mathematics of this seemed an unlikely achievement for one >person, Oh-uh. They HAVE the math. She just uses it for an unfamiliar physical situation. Not Einsteinian at all. Her leap is one of imagination, not knowledge. >but unlike Willam (or what we're told about Willam) she did have a >tradition of scholars arguing about these things, so I bought that even >though her intuitive leap was Einsteinian in scope. But what would ever have >given her the notion that human beings could have had a technology strong >enough to launch satellites? There is nothing at all in her world that >suggests it. The lack of anything even approaching it - like a cannon for >instance - is one of the reasons the Steersfolk think her ideas are >ridiculous. She doesn't. But she knows of one group that does, or might. It's not that big a leap. >The actual explanation has to be that there was a humongous >technological civilization on her world earlier, or that around the other >side of the world there is one now, but we don't see her thinking about >that in the way we see her thinking about ballistics. No. She KNOWS there's such a thing, or something that does the same job, and its living among them. She knows very little about them because they're secretive. >There are other hints that >this is so, like the wizards' electric lights. Clearly the wizards have >superior technology, rather than magic, but how did Rowan work that out >about the satellites? It's like writing a detective story and having the >brilliant detective work out the answer without the reader knowing how she >got there. > >Even by the end of the first book it's not at all clear why the wizards >want to kill her. Oh, THAT's clear. She's Snooping In Their Business. Clearly they have some deep, dark secret. Considering how the Evil Overlord acts by the end of Book Two, we know it's a pretty deadly one - he's being as nasty as can be. >Then I hear there are seven books planned. Oh no - I'm going to >have wait that long to find out the answers to all these questions? At the >moment Rowan and Bel are wandering through the Outskirts, and I agree that >there is some wonderful description of the weird landscape and customs, but >it's too much of a road movie for me, I guess, There we differ. I like road movies. >I want to know we are going somewhere, I want some confidence that the author >has put this huge mishmash >of science and magic, earth and alien species, radical egalitarianism and >multi-racialism, nomadic tribes and medieval agriculture and satellites >together for a purpose other than the fun of seeing it in print. I want to >know how it came about We're getting there. Slowly, but we're getting there. more and more with each book. >how a proto-scientist (Rowan) can find the answers, >because really I read and write this kind of literature to work out puzzles >about this world, and why we are as we are. That's not the whole problem - I >love a well told story, and if these seven books had been condensed down to >one or two, I think I would love this. PS - Rowan believes in magic because she and her entire culture have seen what the wizards can do. They have no idea how, and try to theorize about it off and on, but without data they know they can't. However, when unexplained things happened, as she points out, you look for a wizard. How does this fit her scientific world-view? She doesn't HAVE the mindset that "It doesn't fit the current theory, therefore it can't exist." She KNOWS how little she and the other Steerswomen know, and how the wizards, frustratingly, are far beyond anything she or her people know about. But I will give you a hint. Somewhere in the book you're reading now, Rowan is told, talking to Corvus, that the wizards consider themselves a people set apart. In Book Four, Will finds out they call themselves Krue. [No, he's not sure of the spelling. He's only heard it spoken.] And that, friends, is a clue-by-EIGHT. Pardon the shouting, Pat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:53:37 -0400 From: davebelden Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Pat, thanks for some helpful explanations. I missed the ark colony explanation - probably just being slow to work it out, maybe needed some more hints to keep me going. > >How does Rowan even come to imagine that they are satellites? That was the single crucial > >discovery of the first book, and yet I never understood how she made that intuitive > >leap. > > She doesn't. She first reasons that the stuff fell from somewhere. A high > cliff? Then she does the math. Then she realizes what they are - > because she knows about the Guidestars and they fit that pattern. I guess I missed this point too. I took the Guidestars at first to be like our North Star - actual stars that maintained position - I probably read too fast and am too ignorant of astrology to know whether it's possible to have two such stars in a sky. I thought the wizards were using the stars in the same way that navigators have used the North Star forever - i.e. not that high tech. But at what point do we find that "Rowan knows about the Guidestars" and what does she know? How does she learn that they are artificial? I'm still missing it. > She doesn't. But she knows of one group that does, or might. It's not that > big a leap. I guess I think that it is a mind-bogglingly enormous leap, to go from wizards who have strange lights and can do some powerful things, to space travel. But then maybe if it's all totally inexplicable and weird to Rowan at her level of scientific understanding, the one thing isn't that much weirder than the other. I just didn't buy it in the way the story was told. I wonder if others had my problem or if I am alone in this. > We're getting there. Slowly, but we're getting there. more and more with > each book. Slowly! maybe you have persuaded me to plug on. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:31:49 -0400 From: Gaile Pohlhaus Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road possible spoiler To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Pat Mathews wrote: >But I will give you a hint. Somewhere in the book you're reading now, Rowan >is told, talking to Corvus, that the wizards consider themselves a people >set apart. In Book Four, Will finds out they call themselves Krue. [No, he's >not sure of the spelling. He's only heard it spoken.] And that, friends, is >a clue-by-EIGHT. It seems to me that we will, in the seventh book, end up with no 'magic' at all but carefully explained scientific reasoning. I also think we will find that the Krue returned to Gaia having found no other inhabitable planets. Gaile ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:00:27 -0500 From: "S.McInneshin" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU >Any one want to talk more about the feminist aspects--how the tribes deal >with marriage, leadership, warriors etc. with regard to gender issues? Sure, Margaret. Excellent point. I didn't even realize that I hadn't brought up any of the gender/feminist aspects of the writing. Recently I heard a lecture on Plains Indians' culture and this resonated with how the tribes are depicted. Even though the tribes have female warriors I get the sense that Bel is unique even among her own people. Do you find Rowan to be a feminist character? Hey Crystal, I'm a delurker as well and never found that I had to introduce myself although it's not a bad idea. Launching this discussion was a big first for me having never really participated. I'm curious what about the books compel you? I find it interesting that there seems to be a divide in interests regarding this book (not that everyone has always agreed in the past....) Gaile, wow, I haven't yet read the most recent release but I think your conclusions seem dead-on. Some really interesting observations. Must digest and comment more later, seulky ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 23:59:20 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Truthfully, I did not have high hopes going into *The Steerswoman's Road*. My suspicion was that it would be a plodding fantasy doorstopper of minimal originality. But by pages 18-21, when Rowan and Bel discussed the distribution of the gems, and Rowan hit upon the idea of "escape velocity", I guessed that the book might actually be science fiction rather than fantasy. The dragons did not act like a natural animal species; I thought they might be artificially created tools. And when Tyson demonstrated the "protection spell" on the box in the ship's hold, I knew I was right: it was clear that the box was protected not by magic, but by electricity. After that, I was hooked. I wanted to find out why these characters were so mystified by their own world, why there was such a range of technology, what the wizards were like, how everything fit together. It may say more about my geekiness than the books' quality, but I was fascinated by Kirstein's investigation of these questions, all the way through book four, *The Language of Power*, which just came out in September. (There is a sequence in this book that truly impressed me as a computer technician; no "cyberpunk" novel has ever come close in comparison.) I don't want to spoil books 3 & 4 for people, but I can say that a fair amount is explained (with a tantalizing amount still unknown). I can also say that the third book, *The Lost Steersman*, was for me far and away the best of the series, particularly in its treatment of point-of-view and approach to anthropological inquiry. To those who are wavering, I say, don't give up before book three! The gender elements of the books did strike me as a little naive. Women and men appear to be equally represented in all professions (with the notable exceptions of steerswomen and wizards), and given the far-future setting, I can accept the lack of explanation for that. But why is it that sex roles are so equitable while sexual orientation is so problematic? In the first two books it is assumed that everyone is heterosexual. Frankly, I was surprised by this. When Bel was introduced and decided to accompany Rowan on her journey, I thought there might be some sexual tension coming up. But no, not a bit of it. It becomes obvious over the two books that homosexuality is only for perverts like Shammer and Dhree. (There is even a moment at the end of the first book where a woman is assigned to guard Rowan's room with the assumption, unchallenged by the narrator, that this makes her immune to sexual ploys on the part of her prisoner.) By book four (published 15 years after the first) this narrative assumption has been altered -- in fact, it's almost distracting to see the author calling attention to how she's rethought the matter. I do appreciate the effort, though. But back to that division between the steerswomen and the wizards... At 09:04 AM 2004-10-04 -0500, S.McInneshin wrote: >2) What did y'all think of the way Kirstein approaches the idea of truth >and the relationship between truth, the steerswomen, wizards, and the >common folk? I liked the way Kirstein contrasted the approaches of the wizards and steerswomen. From what I can gather (and forgive me if I spoil some elements of the last two books), the wizards are basically a power-hungry secret society who care more about preserving their position of strength than about learning new things or spreading that knowledge. They still have an impressive technological advantage over the rest of the population, but since their ranks are divided by rivalries and an emphasis on one-upsmanship, they actually seem to *lose* knowledge from generation to generation. The steerswomen, on the other hand, actively share their knowledge with the rest of the population and select new members based on their curiosity and willingness to challenge assumptions, not their social class or level of formal education. (There is a truly inspiring example of this in the third book -- another reason I like it so much.) Given that the wizards are mostly male, and the steerswomen mostly female, maybe Kirstein meant this to be a comment on male vs. female ways of approaching intellectual endeavors. Who knows? >Is truth universal, or can truth be universal? Would you >say that truth is seen as a property of the intellectual or privileged? I wouldn't say that Kirstein makes a statement about Truth so much as she demonstrates the empirical scientific method, in all its glory and partiality. Her steerswomen (and others) all have only parts of the puzzle. Some of them are trying very hard to answer questions that concern them, but one thing I like about the author's approach is that with each question answered, many more spring into existence. A lot of these new questions are put aside for later consideration, and one can easily see how some of them will never come up again, at least for these characters, because other things will take priority. That's the way science really works, and acknowledging that motivational element goes at least some of the distance toward the relativist position. >3) Was the world building convincing? The characters likeable? What do >you think is Bel's purpose in the book? Well, the world building is the big mystery of the series, isn't it? What IS this world, anyway? I am certain that it is not Earth (so I would bet against your final sentence, Gaile); it appears to be a partially terraformed colony planet, though it's not clear what solar system it's in. I am not sure how plausible it is that two very different and fiercely competitive ecosystems can survive in such proximity, but granted that premise, I thought Kirstein did a great job of thinking through the stages of biological takeover and what they implied for all parties. As far as I know them, I do like the main characters, but I wouldn't say they are Kirstein's strong suit. Even after four books, I am still not sure exactly what Rowan *looks like*, let alone what unique characteristics define her as a person. The same is true, to a lesser extent, of Bel. Bel is presented as an inspiring, charismatic personality, but her effect on Rowan is so muted that it's hard to understand her sway over other people. (Though she can spout Anglo-Saxon style verse like nobody's business!) I think her structural narrative function is to provide an entry point to the Outskirter culture, just as Willam later becomes an informant about the world of the wizards. Personally, I am confused about how she was able to leave her warband at the beginning of the first book, given what we later learn about Outskirter culture. And speaking of that, what WAS that warband doing in Donner anyway? I am hoping that we learn something new about Bel's motivation and status as the series continues, but I wouldn't be surprised if she turns out to be just a convenient narrative element. But what a narrative. Thanks for nominating this, Seulky. I have really enjoyed the series. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: My Morning Jacket -- It Still Moves "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:00:10 +1300 From: Jenny Rankine Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi all, Delurking for the first time in a couple of years.. I *really* enjoyed the first two steerswomen books, and looked up publisher websites when I first read them to find out whether a sequel was coming out. I was really chuffed to find out that after all these years the series was keeping on going, although seven books sounds like it’s for the publisher’s benefit rather than the writing quality or the readers. I didn’t find the books too slow – I enjoyed the journeying, and found there was enough world-building and hints about the fundamentals of the establishment of the world to keep going with. However, unlike some, I didn’t enjoy the third book as much as the first two, don’t know why. I’m in New Zealand and wont get to see the fourth one for another six months probably, so would appreciate it if list members put big spoiler notices and big spaces if they post any spoilers about it. I like the way the plots revolve around Rowan making a major discovery, with the author giving us hints but keeping us in the dark for the first half. I find the books a great relaxing read, so have missed some of the clues people have pointed out. I thought Shammer and Dree were brother and sister, and believed the perversion implied was that they had sex together, not that the sex for one of them was lesbian. I certainly found the idea of the incest uncomfortable, especially given the power differential with the person involved. However, I did miss some of the everyday heterosexism of the first two books that other people have described. I find Rowan to be somewhat of a cipher as a character, more a vehicle for the reader’s perception of the story, unless I keep in memory her past reactions to things. However, I have really enjoyed Bel’s character, and I guess part of the reason for my slight disappointment with book three was her absence. I also enjoyed the very vivid description of the Outskirter landscape and their oral culture. Enough of a rave -- I don’t have any analysis to add. Great to hear people discussing an old favourite. Cheers, Jenny R Auckland, Aotearoa/New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 07:41:43 -0600 From: PAT MATHEWS Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU >I'm in New Zealand and wont get to see the fourth one for another six months >probably, so would appreciate it if list members put big spoiler notices and >big spaces if they post any spoilers about it. Amazon.com has it and I think they ship to NZ. That's where I got it. Of course, I'm here in the States. >I like the way the plots revolve around Rowan making a major discovery, with >the author giving us hints but keeping us in the dark for the first half. I >find the books a great relaxing read, so have missed some of the clues >people have pointed out. I thought Shammer and Dree were brother and >sister, and believed the perversion implied was that they had sex together, >not that the sex for one of them was lesbian. Also their exploitation of the underage village girl. And the hints that they had threesomes with her. >I certainly found the idea of the incest uncomfortable, especially given the >power differential with the person involved. And also the total self-centeredness, the "living in a bubble" implied. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:32:19 -0500 From: "S.McInneshin" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Janice E. Dawley wrote: >Truthfully, I did not have high hopes going into *The Steerswoman's Road*. >My suspicion was that it would be a plodding fantasy doorstopper of minimal >originality. But by pages 18-21, when Rowan and Bel discussed the >distribution of the gems, and Rowan hit upon the idea of "escape velocity", >I guessed that the book might actually be science fiction rather than >fantasy. The dragons did not act like a natural animal species; I thought >they might be artificially created tools. And when Tyson demonstrated the >"protection spell" on the box in the ship's hold, I knew I was right: it >was clear that the box was protected not by magic, but by electricity. Glad to hear that you enjoyed it. I think that what fascinated you about the book also fascinated me. And so far I agree with most everyone that the character development is rather weak and that the characters are more an ends to a means rather than the central focus of the book. But with that said, *SPOILER COMING UP REGARDING THE THIRD AND FOURTH BOOKS* In terms of how the aliens relate to feminist fiction, I think it's fascinating that their world of "male" and "female" also revolves around issues of literacy and knowledge. What will the role of the aliens be?? And about this interesting, yet baffling, use of communication and the aliens' understanding of their world? Clearly it must come up again (not in book 4) but somewhere in books 5-7? I can't even begin to speculate. But with that said, >Kirstein's investigation of these questions, all the way through book four, >*The Language of Power*, which just came out in September. (There is a >sequence in this book that truly impressed me as a computer technician; no >"cyberpunk" novel has ever come close in comparison.) I'm curious to know what sequence it was that you found impressive? Was it the moment when Rowan and Will are in the house? I admit that I felt a little lost (geek though I am) even though I understood what was going on I suspect I missed some technical references. >I don't want to spoil books 3 & 4 for people, but I can say that a fair >amount is explained (with a tantalizing amount still unknown). I can also >say that the third book, *The Lost Steersman*, was for me far and away the >best of the series, particularly in its treatment of point-of-view and >approach to anthropological inquiry. To those who are wavering, I say, >don't give up before book three! I have a theory based on William's use of the word Krue that the Krue are scientists/engineers etc (the crew of the original voyage although why Rowan doesn't make a connection to the word Krue and Crew seems odd since clearly the Innerlanders use the word Crew. Then again if they don't know they are part of a voyage... I digress. I wonder if the common folk are an experiment? This does not explain what's currently going on in the book with Slado but perhaps explains people's perceptions of the wizard in particular Kiernan (I don't think that name is quite right... the wizard before Slado) and Slado and how they viewed the common folk as objects. I wonder if the Outlanders, with their oral histories, were not intended to be part of the experiement but were other Krue members who decided to populate sections of the world. Seulky -- “You are out of your mind.” “That’s between me and my mind.” -- Firefly ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 13:57:53 -0700 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Steerswoman To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I'm really enjoying the postings about this book. I can't recall when I stumbled upon the first one years ago, but I was hooked by the puzzles once I figured out it was science masquerading as magic. I recently re-read the first two books before I got the third one and enjoyed them somewhat less the second time through, but it did make the clues more obvious. I agree with the theory that the Steerswoman's planet is a colony, and the outskirts are the part undergoing terraforming. The goats seemed to be genetically modified to tolerate the alien plants, and the terraforming process seemed to consist of radiation to kill the indigenous life, followed by the outskirters and their goats to kill what grew back and begin to sow the seeds of earth-compatible bio-systems in its stead. Bel is also my favorite character and I missed her in the third book. I think the part of me that loved Xena also gets into the Rowan-and-Bel partnership. Minus all the fun lesbian subtext, unfortunately... Anybody else been on the list long enough to recall our discussion of Kate Elliot's Jaran books? I was reminded of the interesting grasslands culture from that book when I revisited the outskirts. The one image that stuck with me after my first reading was of Rowan picking up the leadership during the forced march in the outskirts, after they discover the impending radiation burn on the section of outskirts they're in. I'm sorry if this is not in the book we're discussing right now... I can't recall if it's in the first or second book. At any rate, the process of Rowan taking in the ongoing reports from forward scouts and building the mental model of the upcoming terrain, and guiding the tribe safely during the night made a big impression on me for some reason. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:26:13 +1000 From: Julieanne Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Steerswoman To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU At 06:57 AM 12/10/04, Jennifer Krauel wrote: >I'm really enjoying the postings about this book. I can't recall when I >stumbled upon the first one years ago, but I was hooked by the puzzles once >I figured out it was science masquerading as magic. I recently re-read >the first two books before I got the third one and enjoyed them somewhat >less the second time through, but it did make the clues more obvious. I >agree with the theory that the Steerswoman's planet is a colony, and the >outskirts are the part undergoing terraforming. The goats seemed to be >genetically modified to tolerate the alien plants, and the terraforming >process seemed to consist of radiation to kill the indigenous life, followed >by the outskirters and their goats to kill what grew back and begin to sow >the seeds of earth-compatible bio-systems in its stead. I agree with you about the goats being bioengineered - But I see social AND genetic engineering all the way though the terraforming process - its a 1,000 years since records began. It may not have even been a colony, it may have been a crash-landing - it may have been a military crew ship damaged and a forced landing from some interstellar war? Or perhaps they were a ship of military personnel and their families - with orders to build a secret military base? Way off the trade shipping and star-lanes - otherwise they would have had contact with the home-world. Perhaps they were political refugees, escaping an Earth that had become politically and socially untenable - but they had some military to begin with, all the societies and cultures are based on military concepts. But they had the technology for planetary terraforming. The original Crew/Krue planned the whole thing - the original native landscape couldn't support human life of any kind, and it wasn't going to happen in one generation either - they had to plan centuries, generations ahead - eg the huge dam, the 'Dolphin Stair' we find in the 3rd book? The inland sea was also terraformed - Rowan and others on the ship say in the first book, there used to be creatures called "mermaids" - but nobody has seen them for generations - a native creature that was eventually wiped out as the terraforming took hold. That sort of engineering took centuries to do - and they obviously did not have contact with the home-world - and were possibly even "lost in space" from some space disaster. The satellites burned off in a strip every 20 years.... so the 'Face People' or 'Outskirters' were first ones out of the ship or cave or wherever they were holded up until a strip could be cleared. The redgrass is engineered too - its not native to the world, but is a "transitional" form - These "First People" went out with the goats, which were engineered in a lab to barely tolerate the alien ecology, but they have kept a social structure like military air-force - its not a tribal culture, its a military barracks culture - which is also nomadic .... they use military defence perimeters at all times, they set up their tents military style, their social groups or "families" are military barracks-style, and they move and shift whole tribes in military precision - They were all Crew/Krue to begin with, or at least one part of it - the fighter pilots, or scout ships or reconaissance pilots, working in singles (scouts) pairs and trios. There are huge clues in their epic stories of the "First Seyoh" - the first tribes were ordered to stay nomadic, they kept wanting to form permanent settlements, and the "First Seyoh" kept shifting them every 2 weeks and telling the people, they could not stay - "You have no home here- you will never have a home here". And for a 1,000 years- they shift every 2-3 weeks, in a spiral star pattern - as seen from the Guidestars. Again, military precision, was engineered into the people, at least socially - otherwise the terraforming would not work. They had to be kept ignorant too, otherwise their role, as with their goats, would not work. You will go forth and multiply to the n-th generation etc. As these first generations moved east, some stayed behind each generation with the green grass lands, and formed more permanent settlements. We get the clue as Rowan and Bel first approach the redgrass, in the borderlands, the first Outskirter tribe they meet are not "true " Outskirters as far as Bel is concerned -they have no goats, no honour they have forgotten the 'old ways' - they are brigands, thieves etc - living off the leavings, by raiding and hunting off the Innerlanders. The Innerlanders came last - they were *descendants* of the first generations of Outskirters, staying behind in the Innerlands now fully terraformed, and ready for farming and mining. The first permanent settlement was established approximately 200 years after the first Outskirters were sent out, that made them 7th or 8th generation descendants - have totally forgotten the Outskirter way of life, history, culture etc, let alone their true origins. They also would not have known literacy, medicine, metallurgy or pottery-making, textiles or any other industries they do have - they would not have known how to make steel farming implements, or build ships etc.....or what or when to plant, or which herbs did what. The Steerswomen were the teachers, they also were part of Crew/Krue - and were sent out to teach the first permanent Inner-Lander settlements, but they only had the basic knowledge, only what they "needed to know" to establish permanent farming/shipping settlements. Technology was probably planned to be re-introduced slowly in increments - as the villages, became towns, and then cities etc - more technology would be introduced gradually over time. Corvus introduces street lighting in Wulfshaven in the first book, in the 4th book, we also learn how the wizards introduced things like sewerage systems and town water supplies a couple generations before the story is set. There is a clue when the Steerswomen meet at the Archives with the Prime - the very First Steerswoman - Sharon - loves the wizards, and was obviously very friendly with them. They were one people, at that time. But towards the end of Sharon's life, there is discord, mentioned in her journals. I suspect, that's where this "Truth" ideal came from - the Steerswoman may have felt, that these settlements of descendants of the original ancestors sent out into the alien nasty horrible landscape to be human "tools" or generational 'martyrs' of terraforming, born and bred for that purpose - deserved to know the truth - the wizards "faction" - disagreed - feeling that the people should stay in ignorance of their origins. Otherwise, they would demand technology, before it was ready to be introduced in accordance with the "grand plan" set 1,000 years earlier. All those 'field agents' - like Fletcher - sent out to work undercover with the Outskirters, were monitoring the terraforming - they consider the common folk and Outskirters, to be "tools" or "machines" - they do not see them as "human" - they see them like robots, or agricultural or factory machinery, performing a function, and their job was to "repair" the machine, if it broke down - and that "repair" included social engineering - manipulation, guidance etc - even propoaganda, make sure none of the tribes get a hankering to settle down in one place for too long etc, or get too friendly with each other and start uniting in large alliances. If population gets too high to maintain, then kill a few - start a war or conflict between two tribes etc - just like our modern "secret police" agencies, and undercover "spies" use political propaganda to destabilise economies. Same with the Innerlanders - all those inexplicable wars - again, in the Steerswomen's Archives in Book 1, right near the beginning, before we meet Willam - we are told, the wizards have two 'conflicts' per generation, one major conflict, one minor - with I quote " a change of allegiance (between Red and Blue) every 20 years or so" - Population Control, the wizards have a "war" with no rhyme or reason, pull the people in and heavy casualties, keeps the population numbers under control for another generation - and in line with what expanding terran ecology can handle. Social engineering, as well as genetic - was planned, down to the last detail - including the Steerswomen, originally being socially engineered to provide information on navigation by sea and land, fishing, and pottery-making, metallurgy and mining etc. Their knowledge of medicine and surgery is quite advanced, so is their maths, understanding Newton's Laws, but they haven't a clue what electricity is - I found this very puzzling at first, that they were so advanced in some things, eg detailed knowedge of botany and zoology, and the mapping, using detailed longitude/latitude measurements as well as accurate elevation measuring techniques is mind-boggling, but then being totally ignorant in other branches of science. Rowan says early with Corvus she always thought it strange the Steerswomen were always taught to navigate, both with, and without, the GuideStars. She originally thought it was for the "intellectual exercise" as a 'learning tool' - but she then asks Corvus "But we were meant to know both methods, weren't we?" and Corvus nods. So, like the Outskirters - the Steerswomen were sent out with only what the people "needed to know", at that stage of their development, no more, no less. Through Rowan's insatiable curiousity, we eventually learn that Slado has upset the "grand plan" anyway, and without telling the other wizards, and that some wizards are working secretly against him, and helping the Steerswomen as much as they can - without blowing their own cover. But speculation abounds - and I love the way Kirstein makes us choke on our own assumptions - and then twists our noses - In the 3rd book in particular --- all those chapters, about 80% of the way through - before we as readers, learn we have been fooled! Tricked by a clever writer - some of the readers on this list in the first 1 or 2 books, have made the same assumptions I did - but are too frustrated at the slowness - and finding lack of continuing interest to get that "SURPRISE!" that Kirstein keeps throwing in our faces throughout the series. My latest speculation about Kieran, the earlier Donner wizard, was why he changed after he found something in the stars, as we learn at the end of the 4th book - perhaps he found the home-world? Homeworld ships still too far away to contact - but on their way? He then suddenly looked at the "people" - as truly "people" not "organic machiness" - purposely, deliberately, engineered, born & bred for the machine-like function of terraforming the planet. So he started to educate them, saw the children, as human children, not expendable machinery, no longer replaceable farm-animals or factory robots, but part of the human family to be eventually reunited with the homeworld....... Slado, thinks otherwise, and would rather have them all wiped out when the home-world arrives. >Bel is also my favorite character and I missed her in the third book. I >think the part of me that loved Xena also gets into the Rowan-and-Bel partnership. >Minus all the fun lesbian subtext, unfortunately... Yes, I was disappointed with the lack of lesbian sub-text, but on later thoughts in later books, I think it would have detracted a lot from the story to have a romantic relationship between those two. I also find it refreshing to describe a strong, deeply profound friendship - that has no sexual element. Its highly unusual, as women, lesbian or straight - tend to end up always being presented as sexual, and their sexual relationships central to the story, and non-sexual friendships amongst women, is almost non-existent in literature - and to me, on 2nd or 3rd thoughts, I find this highly refreshing and innovative. Women can be whole human beings, with fulfilling lives, in which sex does not play a central part. Rowan's sex life is far more casual - and I don't see it as heterosexist now as I did on first reading, I see it as just plain unimportant and peripheral to the story - and for me, thats the most feminist thing about it! Rowan at least gets some, even if its not that super-important to her, but Bel hasn't had any at all - or even shown interest - Rowan notices those first courting gifts were directed from an Outskirter man towards Bel - but Bel is not the slightest bit interested, she has far more important things on her mind, bigger fish to fry - uniting the tribes and so on, she even looks a little down on Rowan taking a few hours now and then to screw around with Fletcher - again, I now find this refreshing and a delightful positive of the books, not a detraction. I also loved the 3rd book, despite not having Bel in it - (although she does arrive at the end, sort of like riding in like the knight on a white charger? LOL) - but I also see just a dab of satire in Kirstein's writing, she's making fun of us readers in the process - maybe I'm reading more into it than is there - but methinx Kirstein took all the classic genre tropes and twisted them for her own amusement and laughter. the characterisation isn't the best, but for a new writer like Kirstein - it shows great promise methinx, the characters are interestingly complicated, all of the characters are flawed, complex creatures, not stereotyped or 'classic' genre heroines, and even some secondary 'walk-on' characters are well-drawn. I loved the descriptions of the people in Alameth - Mira, the previous steerswoman resident there - is dead, but through casual conversations with the folk of the town, we learn a great deal about her - and although we will never meet her, & she has little or nothing to do with the story, I adored this Mira that we hear so much about:) Even more than Bel! I also like the way Kirstein's characters have different reactions - Rowan has a very dim view of Mira, but the younger Steerswoman who comes to replace her, is far more pragmatic, and pokes fun at Rowan for her conservatism. I also found it refreshing, that while the characters may have personal views, and codes of ethics, of what is objectionable or inappropriate behaviour etc - these things are not related to gender or sexuality. Also, in the third book, the brief scene of the young Steerswoman explaining the loss of her leg - and all the women stare and glare at the menfolk - we never find out how she lost her leg, or what the specific male behaviour was, that made all the women socially ostracise the village menfolk after hearing the story, or why the men all looked ashamed etc - at first, I thought this was a cop-out by Kirstein, why didn't the author tell us? Then I thought, that it was better that way - we don't need to know the specifics, but the fact that the village women united as one, shaming the men as if to say "Just try it here in our village, brothers - and you'll be dead" was a powerful feminist statement to me. Cheers - - Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 22:17:09 -0700 From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: steerswoman To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Thanks Julianne for your ideas and comments. I think much of what you said is plausible and insightful. Late last night I finished gulping down the newest book, Language of Power. Spoilers are below for those of you who haven't read it yet... I thoroughly enjoyed it, but as usual it was over too soon. More puzzles to solve. I am imagining how Kirstein must have struggled with what it would be like to witness the technology we already have today if you didn't even know the first thing about electricity and power. It was fun to try to decode what Rowan perceived into something similar to what we use today, or read about in SF. Some things I noticed pertaining to our discussion of what the mystery is: - I think that "Krue" is a distinction frrom another group which I guess to be the colonists. The colonists were not scientists, rather they were just regular people signed up to go to a new world. The crew were the ones doing the initial terraforming, and then they woke up the colonists when the land would support Earth organisms. Hence the outskirter's poem in the Krue book - the original outskirters were Krue. - Another thing that supports this readinng is the mention of head lice, at the end. It's hard for me to imagine starship crew, scientists, with lice - wouldn't it be too sterile of an environment for that? However, if you have regular folks signed up to be colonists, they might be more likely to bring along whatever flora and fauna they hosted before. Or else the beasties were hosted with the animals brought along, in which case never mind. - I had a bit of trouble with the device that Will used to play back the passwords. Why not have something more like a digital or tape recorder? - the trance in the dragon field seemed jjust like the trance Rowan used to guide the tribe through the outskirts in the earlier book. It was powerful then, but this time it seemed like a repeat. Yeah, we know she can do that, and we know they're going to get out of this pickle, get on with it. - dragons as robots. cool idea, if a bitt sadistic. what could be the purpose if not to control ignorant people who have a dragon mythology? - I am wondering where they do manufacturring. if they replaced the dragons, where would they make them? Where did Jannik keep his sled? Presumably we will find a Krue/wizard city in a future book. Regarding the mystery of why Kieran 'turned' when he saw the star-maps... from what I could tell, the maps showed different 'stars' over a short period of time. That means there were ships out there? They must have been quite close though, to be detected? And why would Slado kill him (and later blow up the house), to prevent others from knowing about it? It was frustrating to not be able to figure that out and know I have to wait until she writes another book. I want it now!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:50:43 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU *SPOILERS FOR THE THIRD AND FOURTH BOOKS* At 03:32 PM 2004-10-11 -0500, S.McInneshin wrote: >What will the role of the aliens be?? And about this interesting, yet >baffling, use of communication and the aliens' understanding of their world? >Clearly it must come up again (not in book 4) but somewhere in books 5-7? I >can't even begin to speculate. The fact of the demons' sentience raises some troubling questions about the terraforming process, at the very least. What right do the humans have to overrun an entire planet with their alien ecosystem, heedlessly killing everything in their way? Did the first settlers know about the native intelligent life when they arrived? Did they not care? I was very moved by the ending of *The Lost Steersman*. In fact, it made me cry. (I think I'm a sucker for the "it was all a huge misunderstanding" plot -- the surprise at the close of *Ender's Game* also really devastated me.) So I was baffled that there was barely a mention of the demons in *The Language of Power*. After finishing it, I realized that the events took place over the course of mere days, so I can understand the limited focus. I assume the demons will be coming back in later installments of the story. >>(There is a sequence in [*The Language of Power*] that truly impressed me as a >>computer technician; no "cyberpunk" novel has ever come close in comparison.) > >I'm curious to know what sequence it was that you found impressive? Was it the >moment when Rowan and Will are in the house? I admit that I felt a little lost >(geek though I am) even though I understood what was going on I suspect I >missed some technical references. Yes, I was talking about the sequence in the house. What I liked about it was its authenticity. Though Kirstein includes the fancy visual descriptions that often annoy me in cyberpunk novels, Willam's repeated snorts of derision indicate that he considers many of the graphics to be unimportant surface-level elements of the computer experience. Being a Linux fan myself, I agree: for hardcore geeking, the command line is where it's at. But at the end of his hacking session, a reversal occurs when he is tripped up by his coder's mentality -- he is so focused on the "trees" (the individual lines of code) that he can't see the "forest" (the code describes a visual image, not a text file or series of commands). I like that the author is so alert to the shortcomings of rigid thinking. She continually shows that there is no one right way to approach any problem -- it's always important to have an open mind. People say that so often that it's become a cliché, but she demonstrates it in the narrative again and again. This is one reason I loved the third book so much. The character of Steffie thinks in a very different way than Rowan does, but he is observant and curious and willing to change his view of the world in the light of new information. Other characters like Janus and Gwen are not, and it's obvious how their close-mindedness has or will end up hurting them and those around them. The house break-in was also interesting because it described various technologies, some familiar, some not, with the same level of detail and precision. Like Jennifer, I was mystified by the machine Willam used to play back Jannik's voice to the computer, but the careful way it was described convinced me that it was either a real invention or something that *could* work. Perhaps Willam and Corvus simply don't have digital recording capability? There are hints that high-tech devices are very carefully doled out by Slado. We certainly haven't come across anything resembling a manufacturing facility. As I see it, if a wizard wants access to technology he doesn't already have, he has two choices: ask Slado for it, or make his own. Willam happens to be good at making his own (he's practically Leonardo da Vinci), but he can't just produce semiconductors out of thin air. So we get weird low-tech items like the card-based voice recorder. At least that's my guess. >I have a theory based on William's use of the word Krue that the Krue are >scientists/engineers etc (the crew of the original voyage although why >Rowan doesn't make a connection to the word Krue and Crew seems odd since >clearly the Innerlanders use the word Crew. Then again if they don't know >they are part of a voyage... I digress. I agree with your theory, and I agree that it's silly that Rowan at least wouldn't see that Krue = Crew. She's a sailor, after all. But no one in the story so far has made the leap to imagine that they might have come from another world. Most or all of the Krue we've met don't seem to know it either, which is odd. I have a feeling that there are only a few members of the "inner circle" around Slado who understand the entire situation, and that they are hoarding the knowledge because it gives them control over everyone else. That's disturbing. Even more disturbing is the possibility that *no one* knows the entire situation at this point, and Slado is an ignorant mad man doing things like crashing Guidestars for his own short term gain, totally oblivious to the long term consequences. Well, thank heavens someone's finally coming to check on the colony. That is my guess as to what Kieran's star photos indicate -- a ship on its way. So many puzzles. So much to think about. I'm looking forward to the next one. :-) ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: My Morning Jacket -- It Still Moves "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:42:49 -0700 From: Rudy Leon Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi all, someone here introduced that this will be a seven book series. I just did a quick google search, and all I could find were reviews of the various books, no author interviews or other pieces that might have that info. Where did this tidbit come from? Is there a good Kirstein site I missed out there? ===== Rudy Leon MS in LIS May 2004 http://leep.lis.uiuc.edu/publish/ruthleon/Career/resume.htm A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both -- Dwight David Eisenhower, in his Presidential inauguration speech. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:27:15 -0400 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: The Steerswoman's Road To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU At 09:42 AM 2004-10-25 -0700, Rudy Leon wrote: >someone here introduced that this will be a seven book series. > Where did this tidbit come from? Is there a good >Kirstein site I missed out there? Hi Rudy -- The places I've seen this mentioned are on Usenet (searchable at Google Groups) and the following interview with Kirstein conducted by Laurie Marks: http://www.sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2003/0308/Rosemary%20Kirstein%20Interview/Review.htm I just tested the link and found that it didn't work. Strange, since I know it was there just the other day. In any case, if you search on "kirstein marks" with Google it will be the first link. If it's still not working, you can read the cached version. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: My Morning Jacket -- It Still Moves "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick