Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:01:51 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU It's kick off time! This month we are discussing Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Saga of the Renunciates, an omnibus edition comprised of The Shattered Chain (1978), Thendara House (1983), and City of Sorcery (1984). These books are filled with discussion fodder, and I'm really looking forward to all your comments. The first question I have to ask you all is, did you like the story? Was it a fun romp, or did you have to slog through it? Did you even finish it? If you liked Saga of the Renunciates, which of the three books did you like best? Did you have a favorite? Why or why not? I really enjoyed reading these books again; however, I had a hard time reading them critically. I kept getting caught up in the adventure, reading to see what would happen next rather than to explore an idea or issue. In that sense, I think I would classify Saga of the Renunciates as "stealth feminism", but many people consider these books to be overtly feminist. What do you think? And if you read these books in the past, did you find that your impression changed at all? Could you tell that Shattered Chain was published nearly 10 years earlier than Thendara House and City of Sorcery? Did you find any aspects of the books to be dated? Were there any ideas or issues which you feel are especially relevant today? I first thought of nominating this book during the discussion of Yolen's The Books of Great Alta. Petra provided a link to an essay titled, "Amazon Heroic Fantasy" by Jessica Amanda Salmonson. Salmonson writes: "Probably because feminists have damned certain aspects of the Darkover books, which are in many ways highly conservative, MZB's The Ruins of Isis was set on an evil matriarchal planet. It is virtually an antifeminist tract, written in a pique over feminist criticisms of her books. The Renunciates Darkover, however, are for all their limitations powerful as symbols due to their ability to function independently in their all-too- familiar misogynist world." http://www.violetbooks.com/amazon.html Does anyone know what criticisms she is referring to? I am sure that we will come up with quite a few criticisms ourselves over the next few weeks, but were there actually people damning these books at the time of publication? I did a quick zip through the internet looking for these criticisms, but couldn't find any. I did find that one can join a modern Renunciate guild. I'd heard that they existed, but I didn't realize they were on the web. (I should have.) For a bit of fun, you may want to check out: http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/krynn/1105/ Believe it or not, there is an entire Renunciates Guildhouse web ring, as well as one for Free Amazons of the Web. I plan to play around with these when I have a spare moment or two. I'm interested to see if these are just fan groups, or whether they have really embraced the ideals of the renunciate. I have a lot of specifics I'd like to discuss - Darkovan modesty, the Dry Towns, depictions of men, relationships, Amazons and the larger society... I could go on and on! Which is why I'm going to leave this kick off at this point. I want to hear what you think. Again, I am really looking forward to this discussion. Warm regards, Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 01:39:32 -0800 From: John Snead Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Torrence wrote: > Could you tell that Shattered Chain was published nearly 10 years > earlier than Thendara House and City of Sorcery? Did you find any > aspects of the books to be dated? Were there any ideas or issues > which you feel are especially relevant today? I found all the books fun and easy reads, like most of her fiction written before that last decade, but _Shattered Chain_ reminded me of some of the stories in the first few volume's of MZB's Sword & Sorceress collections, which were full of revenge-for-rape stories and similarly angry fiction. SC wasn't as angry as many of these stories, but had a definite element of good woman vs. bad men. OTOH, City of Sorcery was far more about companionship between competent women and seemed a far more mature novel > I first thought of nominating this book during the discussion of > Yolen's The Books of Great Alta. Petra provided a link to an essay > titled, "Amazon Heroic Fantasy" by Jessica Amanda Salmonson. > Salmonson writes: > > "Probably because feminists have damned certain aspects of the > Darkover books, which are in many ways highly conservative, MZB's The > Ruins of Isis was set on an evil matriarchal planet. It is virtually > an antifeminist tract, written in a pique over feminist criticisms of > her books. The Renunciates Darkover, however, are for all their > limitations powerful as symbols due to their ability to function > independently in their all-too- familiar misogynist world." > > http://www.violetbooks.com/amazon.html > > Does anyone know what criticisms she is referring to? I am sure that > we will come up with quite a few criticisms ourselves over the next > few weeks, but were there actually people damning these books at the > time of publication? I've never read _The Ruins of Isis_, however, there were serious strains of anti-feminism in much of MZB's work. The most extreme example is perhaps _Darkover Landfall_, which has enforced pregnancy and similar horrors presented as simply being reasonable decisions under the circumstances. If she had been a deeper and more complex writer, I might have considered that these decisions were being presented as potential reasons for the sexism that was so much a feature of later Darkovan culture, but I honestly don't think she was thinking about these books in that complex a fashion. OTOH, although the feminism of Shattered Chain is exceedingly simplistic and perhaps somewhat naive, I would consider all three to be at least moderately feminist fiction. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:09:16 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU John Snead wrote on 1/2/03: > SC wasn't as angry as many of these > stories, but had a definite element of good woman vs. bad men. I, too, had trouble with the lack of sympathetic male characters in Shattered Chain, but I saw the book as more of a criticism of the Biology is Destiny idea. Allyson Zipp writes that: http://www.strangewords.com/archive/cityof.html While it would be reasonable to assume that those chains are cultural, I got the impression that the chains were as much, if not more, biological. What bothered me most was that the biology seemed to come under attack more than the destiny. The most shocking example of this is the portrayal of the wet nurse who has no name. MZB writes: I found that passage very disturbing. Does anyone else share my impressions, or do you think I'm way off base here? Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:25:02 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Torrence wrote on 12/3/02 7:09 AM: > but I saw the book as more of a criticism of the Biology is > Destiny idea Ooops. That's not what I meant at all! I meant the opposite. I shouldn't be allowed to type before coffee. :-) Sorry about that. Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:51:36 +0100 From: Jenny Bonnevier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Salmonson writes: > "Probably because feminists have damned certain aspects of the Darkover > books, which are in many ways highly conservative, MZB's The Ruins of Isis > was set on an evil matriarchal planet. It is virtually an antifeminist > tract, written in a pique over feminist criticisms of her books. The > Renunciates Darkover, however, are for all their limitations powerful as > symbols due to their ability to function independently in their > all-too-familiar misogynist world." > > http://www.violetbooks.com/amazon.html > > Does anyone know what criticisms she is referring to? I am sure that we > will come up with quite a few criticisms ourselves over the next few weeks, > but were there actually people damning these books at the time of > publication? Hi all, Unfortunately I haven't had time to read the book(s) yet (writing a dissertation takes way too much time from all the fun reading I'd like to do), but I remembered that I had come across quite a few feminist sf critics that are critical of MZB. One example is Sarah Lefanu in Feminism and Science Fiction (published as In the Chinks of the World Machine in England, 1988), who is very hard on MZB generally. Lefanu writes: "Inscribed in all her novels... is a warning to women: avoid too much power or you will sacrifice the love of men; and a plea to men for love and understanding. She forces her female characters into submissive roles towards male characters who are obviously their emotional and intellectual inferiors. And then suggests that that is as it should be" (p.45 in the US edition). ...since I haven't read the book, I obviously can't say if I think this is true of The Saga... It would be interesting to hear what the rest of you think, though... /Jenny ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:17:30 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 12/2/2002 11:09:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, torrence@NCTIMES.NET writes: >Does anyone know what criticisms she is referring to? I am sure that we >will come up with quite a few criticisms ourselves over the next few weeks, >but were there actually people damning these books at the time of >publication? I think some of the criticism Bradley was writing was the fact that some women did not like the ending of Shattered Chain (the fact that Jaelle got together with Peter). In fact, Bradley said some people even wrote her angry letters about it. As for the series itself, I liked it. I liked Thendara House the best because of the balance the shifting back between the two cultures. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:28:32 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 12/3/2002 10:17:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, torrence@NCTIMES.NET writes: >While it would be reasonable to assume that those chains are cultural, I got >the impression that the chains were as much, if not more, biological. > >The Free Amazons openly despised her, and with the >pride seen in the invincibly stupid, the wet-nurse treated them with >contempt.> > >I found that passage very disturbing. > >Does anyone else share my impressions, or do you think I'm way off base >here? - - - - Yes I agree, but in the Darkover, anyone who is not Comyn or Amazon is usually a blank being who is just simply there, or treated as animal. That is one fault with the series, the little people are present but not present, they have no names. And that is one thing I don't like about the series, perhaps the only thing. As for the chains, you forgot personal, the chains that we choose to wear. For instance, Magda's attachment to Jaelle and Camilla. It is a chain but one that she chooses to wear. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:12:50 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Her Renunciates don't seem all that different from the stock "outlaw women" one sees in Wild West stories, even to the point of having "true love," in the form of a handsome man, redeem a "tarnished angel" or two and carry her off into "true womanhood" and marriage. Gag me with a spoon. The whole relapse from presumably enlightened modern spacefarers into feudal, or even Byzantine, repression and exploitation of women as little more than chattel slaves seems farfetched at times, and seems to be little more than a thin excuse to dress people up in velvet gowns and have them live in castles. Never mind the fact that we rarely see anyone other than the nobility living *in* those castles and the vast servile class really doesn't impinge on our consciousness unless they drop a glass while serving at table. For which lapse, of course, we fondly expect that they will be whipped. While I enjoyed her Darkover series when I was very young, I also read every science fiction and fantasy book written by a woman and they were at least half-way decent examples thereof. By now, this whole pseudo-gothic/magic/sado-masochistic castaway theme has grown tired and has been hacked to death by far too many writers. Other pens have taken up far more interesting worldlines that explore subjects of far more contemporary interest. And the Darkover history has been picked over to the point that we're left with tabloid reportage on the doings of the minor glitterati and kitsch invocations of the Ubermenschen who are capable of "strange doings of things beyond our ken," and really too divine for words. Unfortunately, the words keep coming along. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:50:03 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Christine Ethier wrote on 12/3/02 4:17 PM: >I liked Thendara House the best because of the balance the shifting back >between the two cultures. I liked Thendara House best, too. I thought it was constructed better than the other two novels, and I thought the issues raised in the book were the most relevant. Chris wrote that a lot of people didn't like the fact that Jaelle got together with Peter at the end of Shattered Chain. I didn't either. I was glad in a malicious sort of way when things didn't work out between them in Thendara House. Still, the relationship did provide a little food for thought. Peter is not a sympathetic character, and I really didn't like the way the women in his life continued to make excuses for his behavior. On the other hand, I think most people have entered into a relationship--friend, lover, even professional--where the other party turns out to be quite different than one anticipates. It's as if we make up stories about people and are then disappointed when they behave in ways that don't fit our presumptions, conflict with what our imagination has led us to expect. (I think psychologists have a term for this.) I know that I've made excuses for people when their behavior doesn't fit my expectations. Making up excuses is easier than giving up my fantasy image of someone and seeing them as they truly are. I think Jaelle illustrates this tendency quite well, especially for younger readers. This type of relationship issue isn't really what I expect to see in F/SF, though. It's not what I want to see, either. I prefer to see more provocative, assumption shattering, brain bending relationship issues. You know, speculative fiction. What did you think about the portrayal of Margali and Camilla's relationship? Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:04:17 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 12/5/2002 10:57:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, torrence@NCTIMES.NET writes: >What did you think about the portrayal of Margali and Camilla's relationship? > >Bridgett I thought it was well done. I know that Camilla is tech. neither female or male, but I kept seeing her as male. Camilla is far less possessive than Peter and that sense of being chained wasn't there. As for the Jaelle/Peter relationship. It is interesting to note that Peter is rejected by both women. Also, Jaelle's lust or liking of Peter I understand because he was different but not different. And she was young. After Peter, neither Jaelle or Magda has a "normal" romantic relationship with a man. In fact, both women only use men for stud purpose, or in the case of Wade and Magda for a one night stand. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:17:31 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Lee Anne Phillips wrote on 12/3/02 7:12 PM: > The whole relapse from presumably enlightened modern > spacefarers into feudal, or even Byzantine, repression > and exploitation of women as little more than chattel > slaves seems farfetched at times, Hmmm. I guess I have to admit liking that whole feudal relapse premise. I think Bujold does a good job with it in the Vorkosigan series, and doesn't Le Guin use this in one of her books? I never thought too much about it being farfetched; I just like it. Now that you mention it, though, couldn't Afghanistan be a real world example of this? Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:25:14 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Christine Ethier wrote on 12/5/02 8:04 AM: >I thought it was well done. I know that Camilla is tech. neither female >or male, but I kept seeing her as male. Camilla is far less possessive >than Peter and that sense of being chained wasn't there. I considered Camilla to be very womanly. In fact, I'd have to say that she is my favorite character in the trilogy. Perhaps it is just that her character was less developed, leaving more to the imagination, but I found her to be more mature and somehow more likable than the other characters. Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:53:09 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 08:17 AM 12/5/2002 -0800, Torrence wrote: >Lee Anne Phillips wrote on 12/3/02 7:12 PM: > >> The whole relapse from presumably enlightened modern >> spacefarers into feudal, or even Byzantine, repression >> and exploitation of women as little more than chattel >> slaves seems farfetched at times, > >Hmmm. I guess I have to admit liking that whole feudal relapse premise. I >think Bujold does a good job with it in the Vorkosigan series, and doesn't >Le Guin use this in one of her books? I never thought too much about it >being farfetched; I just like it. It's an old theme and very popular among some writers. At its worst, it turns into Lord of the Flies barbarism. But Darkover takes a middle path, somewhere between the pessimistic chaos assumed by those afraid that our vaunted civilization is only a fragile barrier between a tolerable world and one ruled by bestial impulses and brute force and the ever-advancing quasi-utopias envisioned by those optimistic souls who believe that the eternal progress of humanity into a state little less than the angels is inevitable, punctuated from time to time by periodic but temporary excursions into evolutionary backwaters. My only real problem with it is that it's been done *so* very much and the examples we see around us go pretty much the opposite way. As soon as "primitive" people see new things they try very hard to emulate them, even when those efforts are naive. The Cargo Cults of Micronesia are one example, and the ongoing disappearance of indigenous cultures all over the world, fueled by missionary activities of more powerfully organized groups and economic exploitation. It's the idea that humans would recreate feudalism from scratch, even with the impetus of the deus ex machina madness which made all the original castaways go slightly nuts, that bothers me. If this is a structure imposed by the Chieri, why did they go away? Were the original spacefarers all Star Trek wannabes, who promptly decided to emulate Klingon norms when left on their own? Didn't *anyone* write any of this science stuff down so flush toilets and central heating might have ameliorated their primitive living conditions. The ancient *Romans* had plumbing and central heating, so we can't assume that these technologies were out of reach. And let me assure you that if *I* had been cast away on a planetary desert isle, arranging decent plumbing and a nice warm cave or hut to raise half-alien babies in would have been far higher on my list of desirable innovations than weird matrix weapons, however macho these might be for zapping one's many enemies. Indeed, given the murderous inclinations of the spaceship crew and passengers, we'd have to assume a high proportion of antisocials and malcontents among them. Perhaps this was a prison ship on its way to the future equivalent of Devil's Island or Botany Bay. Darkover landfall was made by highly scientific adventurers, who *ought* to have been prepared for various eventualities, including shipwreck. Why were none of the supporting technologies and training in survival which we require now available to the putative crew and passengers? And where is religion in all this? Given our own historical experience with real castaways, we see that survivors often become *very* religious, and the disappearance of whatever existing religion(s) the landfall people had doesn't seem likely in extremis. The European Middle Ages were the direct result of meddling by the Romans on tribal societies. When Rome collapsed, the military governors and solutions imposed by Rome were a reasonable model for the natives to strive toward, recapturing the glory days of yore in various Camelotish incarnations influenced by local culture and the extent of Roman penetration into existing society. Feudalism is Empire writ small. And Roman religion eventually permeated all the old Empire, even extending into the borderlands outside the ancient empire eventually. Religion and Feudalism go hand in hand, with religious tenets and obligations reinforcing feudal relationships everywhere we see it implemented. The Deryni series, although it too became tiresome when it turned into a franchise, features what appears to me a more sociologically believable relationship between feudal society, "magic," and a religious quasi-Catholic underpinning that glues everything together. Feudalism in Europe didn't survive the Protestant Reformation, and the stories of the evolution of the modern state and the modern religious pluralism are closely related. >Now that you mention it, though, couldn't Afghanistan be a real world >example of this? Not really. Afghanistan has always been primitive and tribal, with the only "civilization" being a thin veneer located in a few largish cities under the tutelage of the Soviets, who were far more committed to the emancipation of women and the betterment of social conditions than "our" boys were, the gang of anti-soviet thugs and "warlords" who became the Taliban and their pals. It took the application of vast sums of US money to topple the fledgling Afghan republic and substitute a brutal misogynistic dictatorship. And we deliberately chose the worst and most crazed groups among the Afghan peoples to support, since decent citizens prefer not to butcher their neighbors. The equivalent action in this country would have been for the Russians to arm the Crips and Bloods criminal gangs with missiles and anti-tank weapons, perhaps with an admixture of military aid to the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Nation to keep things interesting. When one envisions a USA "taken over" by such criminals and bigoted fanatics, we see what actually happened in Afghanistan. But it didn't happen "naturally." It took Ronald Reagan's bloodthirsty mujahedeen "Freedom Fighters" to *really* mess things up, cozily aided by *our* friend Osama bin Laden and 10,000 other Arabs from the Gulf States of the Middle East, primarily Saudi Arabia. Our CIA taught Osama and his pals their bloody trade, including the most modern techniques of sabotage and terrorism, which was ok as long as the "Godless Reds" were the target. Afghanistan, of course, was devastated but it sure taught those Ruskies a thing or two, didn't it? Of course, a bunch of "our" boys," the former "Freedom Fighters," went postal" when we summarily fired them after the USSR went belly up, but then we invented the word "postal" to describe angry human reactions to the arbitrary cruelties of the Federal government. Too bad they blew up some of *our* buildings when they got ticked off at not receiving a fat paycheck from Washington anymore, but them's the breaks, ain't they? It would have cost quite a lot of money to retrain our mercenary army in a productive trade or two and that's just not the way modern business and covert diplomacy work. Cheers, Lee Anne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:36:54 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 12/5/2002 11:32:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, torrence@NCTIMES.NET writes: >but I found her to be more mature and somehow more likable than the >other characters She was more mature. Magda calls Camilla a senior. So Camilla is easily the oldest of the core Free Amazon group. And that is one thing I liked about the series. There are older supporting characters and in the last book of the series the main characters are in their 30s. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:52:21 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 12/5/2002 3:53:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, leeanne@LEEANNE.COM writes: >Not really. Afghanistan has always been primitive and tribal, >with the only "civilization" being a thin veneer located in >a few largish cities under the tutelage of the Soviets, who >were far more committed to the emancipation of women and the >betterment of social conditions than "our" boys were, the How about Italy and the fact that if a woman is wearing jeans, she is asking to be raped? You do have a point about the problems with Darkover Landfall. Most of the misogynistic societies I see in reading all usually in fantasy series, I tend not to read a lot of sci-fi. Within those series, the societies are usually thinly disguised adaptations of modern societies or places. I think that the misogynistic tendencies in Darkover developed from that whole "breeding" era. The problem with the Darkover series is that the earlier books tend to be shorter because of when they were written and the series time frame/history is never constant. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 11:59:01 -0600 From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I realize this is a little late, but it took me quite a while to get through the books. I first read Thendara House and Shattered Chain 6 or so years ago, and liked them well enough. I never had read the third book, though. On this go-through, I found it very hard to get past the preconceptions of what 'liberated' Terran women were like-- the first dozen pages or so of my book are marked up and highlighted and turned down, covered with reactions to Mrs. Peter Haldane's views on her life! So yes, I found it to be *very* dated. I hadn't realized the time difference between the first two books, though. It does explain what Thendara house was easier to take, although there were still elements of it that really bothered me. >The first question I have to ask you all is, did you like >the story? Was it a fun romp, or did you have to slog >through it? Did you even finish it? If you liked Saga of >the Renunciates, which of the three books did you like >best? Did you have a favorite? Why or why not? I did find that i had to slog through the books, even when they grabbed my attention, they failed to challenge their internal fundamentals. For example, Jaelle's response to Peter in HQ -- how on earth (or Darkover) could a person brought up in a Guild House act that way around a man? How would she come to know she was supposed to be so self- effacing and ornamental, and let Peter treat her the way he did? Was it was just so far outside of MZB's ability to grasp the human/developmental repercussions of the world she was building to have Jaelle try to have a complicated independent relationship with him? because Peter never seemed to be such a 60's manly bastard (sorry, can't quite come up with a phrase to capture his overall attitude, so that one will have to do, and I hope y'all will use it to mean - the way PH acts in Thendara House-- and not as an insult) The other aspect which kept niggling at my ability to enjoy the book was the attitude towards Empire shown in the books –- how dare Darkover not want to join the glorious interstellar Empire from which it sprang a gazilion years ago! There was no attempt to even pretend they might have reasons for wanting their own independence and dominance! I was really uncomfortable with MZB's limited vision of what the far advanced future of Terran Society would be like! And all of this is without even touching on her treatment of homosexuality in the first (and second?) book. There is both the Terran abhorrence of 'lovers of women' and shaming of men who love men, and also the fact that Margali seems to become a lesbian only because Peter was such a failure as a mature human. I found that fairly insulting, and not stealth feminist at all. Certainly, by City of Sorcery, all the negative elements seem to have worked themselves out, and Margali and Camilla's relationship is framed in a really positive light -- it's just the road chosen to get there was so hard for me to walk as a reader! >I really enjoyed reading these books again; however, I had >a hard time reading them critically. I kept getting caught >up in the adventure, reading to see what would happen next >rather than to explore an idea or issue. I really prefer my speculative fiction to be speculative, so this kept slowing my going. I did enjoy the books, but I feel so disappointed by the poor world-building and attacking of the issues it seems like MZB was setting out to look at. OTOH, I felt that some of the best stories were not in this book, and I checked out some fan pages and found that (in addition to landfall, which i really want to look at now) the story of the Forbidden Tower has its own little series (also out in an omnibus). I think this might be a really interesting cycle -- creating an egalitarian response to the Hastur-ocracy and potentially taking on and eliminating many of the gender-role issues on Darkover. I have a real fondness for utopian fiction, and that looks like a potential place to find some! I was also very interested by the laran in the books, and bothered by the way that Margali and Jaelle didn't seem to make use of it when it would have been a natural defense or communication method-- it never seemd like they had integrated laran into their day-to-day existence. I'm not sure if this is due to limitations MZB spells out in other places in the Darkover sagas, or if it falls under that same lack of ability/imagination to flesh out the worlds she sketches. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 21:41:23 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Rudy Leon wrote on 1/2/03 9:59 AM: > Jaelle's response to > Peter in HQ -- how on earth (or Darkover) could a person > brought up in a Guild House act that way around a man? How > would she come to know she was supposed to be so self- > effacing and ornamental, and let Peter treat her the way he > did? Was it was just so far outside of MZB's ability to > grasp the human/developmental repercussions of the world > she was building to have Jaelle try to have a complicated > independent relationship with him? This really bothered me, too. Jaelle seemed like a very strong character, even as a child, and then she just turned to mush. The worst, IMO, was the sex scene on page 339 of my omnibus copy: "She did not move or draw away from him; she simply lay quietly, not responding, yet too well bred to rouse a man and leave him unsatisfied." WHAT??? I don't think the consciousness raising sessions in the guildhouse taught her that. Too well bred? Good grief. > I was also very interested by the laran in the books, and > bothered by the way that Margali and Jaelle didn't seem to > make use of it when it would have been a natural defense or > communication method-- it never seemd like they had interated > laran into their day-to-day existence. I'm not sure if this is > due to limitations MZB spells out in other places in the > Darkover sagas, or if it falls under that same lack of > ability/imagination to flesh out the worlds she sketches. The really annoying thing to me was that both Margali and Jaelle were denying their laran. One character, yes, but two? And once introduced, I would have liked the whole laran issue to have been resolved. It wasn't, not to my satisfaction. Despite these and other problems, I did still enjoy reading The Saga of the Renunciates. Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 22:10:30 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Lee Anne Phillips wrote on 12/5/02 12:53 PM: >And where is religion in all this? >Given our own historical experience with real castaways, >we see that survivors often become *very* religious, >and the disappearance of whatever existing religion(s) >the landfall people had doesn't seem likely in extremis. > Religion and Feudalism go hand in hand, with religious > tenets and obligations reinforcing feudal relationships > everywhere we see it implemented. Okay, I'm a month late replying to this, but Petra's post on Bujold's Curse of Chalion reminded me. I haven't read all the Darkover books, but it was my impression that the Hasturs took the place of the church, at least in the Domains. Weren't they supposed to be descended from the gods? And what about the monks? Weren't they some sort of religious order? I agree that Darkover would be more convincing if it had a stronger religious presence. When compared with Curse of Chalion, it fails miserably in this area. Still, I'm not sure I agree that there is a complete absence of religion on Darkover. Or is that not what you meant? I suppose it is a bit late to have a discussion about religion on Darkover, but I did want to say that these comments stuck in my head. I strongly agree that there is a relationship between religion and feudalism, and it is interesting to contemplate how this works. Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 01:24:43 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Oops! Sent that off to the wrong version of the list. At 10:10 PM 1/4/2003 -0800, Torrence wrote: >Lee Anne Phillips wrote on 12/5/02 12:53 PM: > >>And where is religion in all this? >I haven't read all the Darkover books, but it was my impression that the >Hausturs took the place of the church, at least in the Domains. Weren't >they supposed to be decended from the gods? And what about the monks? >Weren't they some sort of religious order? I'm conflicted about this being religion. In Exile's Song and Sharra's Exile she has Sharra, a self-styled Goddess, overwhelming the mind of an "illegitimate" Hastur, Marja. Against this coercion Marja is also being coerced by her laran-wielding kin, to her dismay, who want her as a pawn in their cozy breeding schemes. (This reminds me strongly of Herbert's Bene Gesserits, and the Hasturs even have a Command Voice exactly equivalent to the But is Sharra actually a divine being or simply one of those pesky aliens who bred with the Terrans in the olden days and then vanished (more or less) into the 8th Dimension along with John Whorfin and John Bigboote. It seems to me that the "superstition" the Hasturs use to influence the "gullible" is rather more closely allied with reality, since laran allows descendents of the Chieri/Terran couplings to actually visit "divine" wrath upon one. The Cristoforos seem to be a minority sect of no great importance in relation to the revealed might of the Hastur line. And indeed, the whole ediface of "belief" amongst the Comyn seems a bit more like Society for Creative Anachronism roleplaying and dressup than a real culture. All of us speaking "forsoothly," except in a sort of Spanish hybrid, and wearing our lovely gowns of slashed velvet and shiny little clever accoutrements is an odd sort of society, I think. And there are entirely too many intelligent aliens on Darkover, the Catpeople, the Kyrri, the Trailmen, the Ya-men, the Cralmac, and who knows what else in a Barsoomian hodgepodge. >I agree that Darkover would be more convincing if it had a stronger >religious presence. When compared with Curse of Chalion, it fails miserably >in this area. Still, I'm not sure I agree that there is a complete absence >of religion on Darkover. Or is that not what you meant? Not exactly. There is religion but no one seems to take it seriously, or those that do seem pathetic. I get the strong impression that Darkover is basically a modern secular state in which religion serves a minor role to the rulers, other than as a sop to the masses, despite the feudal trappings. The divine right of kings that it at the heart of feudalism doesn't really need to be invoked when the kings have truly godlike powers. Compare Zelazny's Lord of Light for a rather similar cheat on religion, except there the "gods" are Krishna, Shiva, and the rest of the Hindu pantheon propped up by covert technology rather than psychic powers. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:16:40 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/5/2003 12:51:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, torrence@NCTIMES.NET writes: >yet too well bred to rouse a man and leave him unsatisfied." > >WHAT??? I don't think the consciousness raising sessions in the guildhouse >taught her that. Too well bred? Good grief. While that scene did bother me and I felt that Jaelle's character did weaken, it occurred to me after reading some of the other Darkover novels that Bradley was perhaps playing with the ideas behind nature and nurture. Magda thinks that she and Peter are more Darkover then Terran because of where they were raised. And Jaelle at some point in the book, thinks that she might still be a Dry Town woman in the sense because that was where she spent in her formative years. And that she believed that perhaps that was the source of her behavior. So perhaps Bradley was trying to play with that idea and that such an attempt did not come across very well. But then Jaelle also is able to leave Peter, and by the end of the series she is a stronger character than when she started. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 17:21:27 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/5/2003 1:20:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, torrence@NCTIMES.NET writes: >I haven't read all the Darkover books, but it was my impression that the >Hasturs took the place of the church, at least in the Domains. Weren't >they supposed to be descended from the gods? And what about the monks? >Weren't they some sort of religious order? The Hasturs weren't really the religious leaders, but yes descended from the gods. And those with Laran where seen as different. Though one of the weak points is that Bradley does not fully realize the non-Christian based religion. There are monks, St. Valentine of the Snows and the religion is basically Christian, but that also is undeveloped. Besides the monks, there also seems to be a small non-monk Christian (christforo, I think is the term) minority on Darkover. But there seems to be no major religious holidays, just seasonal holidays. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:11:55 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 05:21 PM 1/5/2003 -0500, Christine Ethier wrote: >St. Valentine of the Snows ...is run by the Cristoforos which, being translated, means Christ-bearers. For a counterexample in which religion plays a *huge* part in a feudal society, despite the presence of real magic (or psychic powers, whichever one prefers) consider the Deryni books of Katherine Kurtz. Real Pagan societies depended just as much on the whole context of their religion, the fasts, the feast days, the religious motivations and metaphors underlying day to day experience, as did Medieval life depend on Christianity. Kurtz gets it right, I think, in having seemingly trivial details like the named hours of the day defined in terms of the Holy Offices performed at that time, the Nocturnes; Vespers, Matins, Lauds, and (in latter days) Prime -- the Diurnals; Terce, Sext, Nones, and (also in latter days) Vespers. Unberto Eco also gets this part right in his mystery series. It doesn't take much of religious background to suggest a deeper presence, as we also see in the almost cryptic religious references in Tolkien's work. If (in fact) Darkover represents a Pagan society, it's a very curious one in which literature, poetry, philosophy, and mundane experience largely ignore that religion, relegating it rather cynically to the background or, as with some present day political parties, as a nod to the gullible masses whilst their "betters" ignore or (privately) scoff at it. Even Star Trek *gets* this, with Whorf and other Klingons) the token Feudalists, relating almost everything they run across to Kahless and the rest of the Klingon Mythos. He even meets Kahless in an otherworldly episode. But if you read real writings -- take Issa, writing in Post-Feudal Japan -- you see allegory and reference to their divine foundations everywhere. Insects, do not cry. That are loves that have to part, even in the sky. - The Year of My Life is a reference to a divine story of loss remembered by the poet on a hot summer day with cicadas crying as he remembers the tragic deaths of his wife and four children. He thereby ties together the grieving present and the facts of the past with an intimation of the universality of both love and loss by relating it to a story of the gods and goddesses. It's impossible to understand Issa without at least a casual understanding of Jodo Shinshu (Pure Land) Buddhism. This world of dew is only a world of dew - and yet - The Year of My Life Written after the death of one of his children. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 16:38:03 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 04:11 PM 1/5/2003 -0800, Lee Anne Phillips wrote: >of the Holy Offices performed at that time, the Nocturnes; >Vespers, Matins, Lauds, and (in latter days) Prime -- the >Diurnals; Terce, Sext, Nones, and (also in latter days) >Vespers. Unberto Eco also gets this part right in his Ooops! Missed a bit through trying to fit too much into one sentence. The addition of Compline split Vespers in two, which moved Vespers to a diurnal office and left Compline (formerly half of Vespers) amongst the nocturnes. So the late order of the Offices was: Nocturnals: Compline, Matins, Lauds, Prime Diurnals: Terce, Sext, Nones, Vespers The early order was: Nocturnals: Vespers, Matins, Lauds Diurnals: Terce, Sext, Nones Can't tell the players without a scorecard. Sorry about the confusion. I usually write from memory and my recollection blurs rather badly from time to time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:35:07 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Okay, one more comment. :-) When reading The Saga of the Renunciates, I often found myself contemplating the concept of modesty. The Darkovan women wear their hair clasped at the neck with a butterfly clip. A bare neck is considered immodest. They also wear long skirts and seem to be well covered. When working with men, the Renunciates take care to wear loose clothing and appear in no way provocative. Still, they have bare necks and are wearing pants. I had trouble believing that would not be provocative to a Darkovan man, especially one not accustomed to Renunciates. Still, the Renunciates have good experiences working with men. Jaelle found the Terran uniform to be very immodest. Though she is assured that the enlightened Terrans don't objectify and sexualize women, her laran tells her otherwise. Jaelle does not have good experiences working with Terran men. Here I think MZB touches on a timely topic, raising issues which (unfortunately) don't seem to have any answers yet. What clothing is appropriate for the workplace? We're still trying to figure it out, I think. Shouldn't women be able to wear whatever they want without fear of sexual objectification or worse? Well sure, but... I still have mixed feelings about it. Six year old girls dressed like rock/porn stars sort of bothers me. I don't think children should be sexualized. Teens should be able to express and explore themselves through clothing (I sure did), but I hate seeing the way some men leer at them. These were the types of thoughts that went through my mind while reading The Saga of the Renunciates. I also discovered that I'm not sure what I consider modest anymore. Where does a personal sense of modesty stop and proscribed modesty begin? I find this whole topic interesting, and I was glad MZB brought it up. How about you? Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:32:47 -0800 From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU At 06:35 PM 1/10/2003 -0800, Torrence wrote: to wear loose clothing and appear in no way provocative. Still, they have >bare necks and are wearing pants. I had trouble believing that would not be >provocative to a Darkovan man, especially one not accustomed to Renunciates. It does seem inconsistent, but there are many other inconsistencies in the series. >Still, the Renunciates have good experiences working with men. Hmmm. This also seems inconsistent. We see a strongly sexist culture fixated on breeding future heirs who are blithely tolerant of gay men and lesbians. These two world views don't often go well together. In fact, this tolerance seems rather grafted on through author fiat, not arising naturally from the nature of the societies existing on Darkover. >Jaelle found the Terran uniform to be very immodest. Though she is assured >that the enlightened Terrans don't objectify and sexualize women, her laran >tells her otherwise. Interesting observation, and very timely, since her concepts of modesty and observations of "Terran" culture mirror the thoughts of Muslim women about the West. These points are well taken, since much of our daily exposure to popular culture features "mooks" and "midriffs," defined roughly as perpetually puerile young men and overtly sexualized and objectified young women. Q: What do you get when you cross a mook with a midriff? A: The World Wrestling Federation. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:54:31 -0500 From: Gwen Veazey Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of Undress To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I'm enjoying the discussion, as always. Have made it through _Shattered Chains_ and half of the next book. I'm reminded of a discussion with women friends in which we talked about responsibilities with dress. I stood up for women being able to wear whatever they wanted, finally saying in exasperation, "Well, what do men do when they go to the beach? They can't jump on every bikini- clad woman they see!" One woman shook her head in mock dismay and said solemnly, "For men, going to the beach is NOT a vacation." Gee, guys, is it so hard for you all the time? Oh, dear, I mean "difficult." One thing I would like to say before we leave MZB. Her book, _Mists of Avalon_ meant a great deal to me when I discovered it in the 80's. Was not familiar with her or many feminist/fantasy/sf authors before then. Best, Gwen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:46:16 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Yesterday I finally finished *The Saga of the Renunciates*. I really had trouble with this book, not so much with of its interpretation of feminism as with the pacing and plot problems that began about 2/3rds of the way through *Thendara House* and continued to the midpoint of *City of Sorcery*. Much of this material seemed pointless beyond amassing a certain word count and had me staggeringly bored and frustrated. Things picked up again, though, and I was able to recover my earlier engagement with the story. I found a lot to like in *The Shattered Chain* and *Thendara House*. Some of the discussion comments made me think that the feminist elements would be mere background material or subtly undermined by other elements, but I didn't think that was true at all. I do think that *The Shattered Chain* in particular was charged with an emotion that resists pigeonholing. Thus we have the strong and separatist Renunciates rescuing women from slavery in a brutal patriarchy, next to a fairly unexamined heterosexual romance, next to some vicious comments about female collaborators in the patriarchy, next to the sad and sympathetic story of Lady Rohana, a woman who chose marriage and childbearing, not wholeheartedly but out of a sense of duty, and who finds ways to aid the Renunciates clandestinely throughout her life. There is a sincerity to this book that I really appreciate. There is no pretense on the author's part that she knows the answers to many of the questions her characters ask. But she is committed to standing up for certain possibilities, one of which is a space for women to live away from men and patriarchal systems entirely. If that turns out not to be the choice that either Jaelle or Magda make in the long run, it is no less powerful a symbol. Throughout all three books, the Guild Houses are portrayed in a consistently positive light -- safe havens that in defiance of convention are not boring! My favorite section of the book was the first two parts of *Thendara House*, largely for the "consciousness raising" sessions and the bustle of life in the guild house, but also for the complementary story of Jaelle's growing disillusionment with marriage and alienation among the Terrans. Some of this stretched belief as far as Jaelle and Peter's characters were concerned -- how could they have changed so much since the end of *The Shattered Chain*? -- but I thought these sections worked as part of the overall investigation of sexism, internal as well as external, that was going on. The training sessions in the guild house impressed me with their breadth of subject matter -- this is feminism in the raw, refining itself through argument and discussion in a way that feels very real. The Renunciates are always questioning and searching for better ways of doing things -- this is no fixed bastion of eternal verities, but a community always learning from itself. I like that very much. (By the way, has anyone read *In This House of Brede*, by Rumer Godden? It is the story of several Benedictine nuns in an English Abbey that reminds me in some ways of the guild house. It too is full of personalities and intellectual activity, and not a little humor. Though I'm an atheist, I loved it and recommend it heartily.) I have to admit that I was surprised by Magda's growing awareness that she was "a lover of women". That energy was there in Magda's first meeting with Jaelle, but I didn't think the author would have the guts to develop it. I was happy to be proved wrong, though I thought it strange that the only really sexual moment between the two of them in all three books was their kiss in the middle section of *Thendara House*. We know that they go on to be lovers and freemates by the third book, but it is all behind the scenes. Editorial constraints may have had something to do with this, though Magda's relationship with Camilla is a bit more explicit. Theoretically, these two made a fascinating combination. Not only is Camilla Magda's first female lover, she's nearly twice Magda's age, she's an "emmasca", AND she's a repressed telepath of secret Comyn heritage! I would have liked to see a lot more investigation of what made Camilla tick, but it seemed like the author didn't quite know what to do with her. Imagine my frustration when, after the seemingly endless slog through the Hellers in *City of Sorcery*, Camilla and Magda choose to journey on to the Sisterhood and the book ends before they even get there! What a rip! Does anyone who has read other Darkover novels know if the story of Magda and Camilla's experience with the Sisterhood is ever told? There are obviously other parts of the story that take place outside of these three books. I gather *The Spell Sword* and *The Forbidden Tower* provide some important background, but that's all I know. Overall, though I found large sections of these books frustrating (I haven't really gone into it, but I could come up with a long list of pet peeves), I believe that MZB has gotten a bum rap as an "anti-feminist". Jenny Bonnevier already quoted Sarah Lefanu's *In the Chinks of the World Machine*. On the evidence of these books, Lefanu's claim that MZB's "[...] female characters, on whom her reputation as a feminist writer rests, all knuckle under to the notional Man", is clearly false. Obviously, I'm missing a lot of the story as far as Darkover goes, but in these books I don't see a lot of knuckling under. I see a lot of sisterhood and love between women. I've got to give the author credit for that, no matter what goes on in *The Ruins of Isis* (or *The Mists of Avalon*, which I didn't much like). Thanks for the recommendation, Bridgett, and thanks to all for the discussion. ----- Regarding some of MZB's influences, I found the following amusing and thought some of you would too: "At first Darkover was sort of tropical. People tended to wear diaphonous clothing and there were houses with token walls, or only curtains. There were swamps! Should you possess some of the early editions, you will find in them a Darkover remarkably unfamiliar from the later stories. Then a remarkable thing happened. Marion read "The Left Hand of Darkness" by Ursula K. LeGuin, and the temperature of Darkover began to drop. I still remember the excitement in her voice as she called us long distance to tell us how wonderful LeGuin's new book was. And I remember how cold it was in that Old Lovecraftian Farmhouse where she grew up! I suppose that she was finally taking that advice about 'writing what you know.' " Jon deCles, from http://home.pon.net/rhinoceroslodge/mzb.htm (look out for annoying music!) ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://therem.net/ Listening to: Travis -- The Man Who "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:39:03 +0000 From: "E. S. Carnall" Subject: [*FSF-L*] Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Dear all, This is the first time I've taken part in a list so I may well not being doing it right. Apologies if I am not. And I haven't worked out yet how to do that 'responding to your email quoting bits which are indicated by a tick.' I find out presently. So, Frances, Angela, Lee Anne, Torrence and another woman whose email I lost, hello. (I'm really sorry I about the lost email. What you said about wearing the head scarf was very interesting.) >When reading The Saga of the Renunciates, I often found myself contemplating the concept of modesty. This is something that interests me very much. Like Angela I question the garb that means women are seriously underdressed and that seems suggestive. (Here in Scotland, even when it is winter-cold one sees young men (and women) in only a cotton t-shirt and open jacket. This seems to me seriously underdressed too.) >Interesting observation, and very timely, since her concepts of modesty and observations of "Terran" culture mirror the thoughts of Muslim women about the West. Coming up on the train from London a few months ago I had a long conversation with a Middle Eastern woman (can't remember which country) but fairly newly in Britain. She was old enough to have a teenage/college age son. (I am older.) We began with language and she showed me some Arabic and I suggested some English colloquialisms. (Her English wasn't perfect.) Some of the Arabic compared the names of the months of the Islamic calendar with the Western ones. She was a modern woman, partly secular, wearing Western clothes. When a woman went by wearing some skin tight top that distinctly showed her nipples she asked me, if I thought some women˛s clothing was a bit much. That's not quite how she put it; her English wasn't that colloquial. But without being condemnatory she did query that kind of dress. I couldn't help agreeing with her. As I do with a lot of what Angela says. But I have to wonder if I am being elderly. Midriffs. >Q: What do you get when you cross a mook with a midriff? >A: The World Wrestling Federation. >I liked this I liked what Angela said about being glad girls felt comfortable with bodies so they didnąt mind letting flab show. And after there is a style of dress worn by East Indian women in which the sari comes to the waist and the blouse finishes above it. A crop-top in fact. But saris are so graceful. And thatąs part of it. The more cloth the more graceful! And the more cloth, the more modest? Iąm very comfortable with seeing women in long robes, but deeply distressed and indeed angry when, occasionally, I see one wearing a face-mask. Only the eyes uncovered. >When working with men, the Renunciates take care >to wear loose clothing and appear in no way provocative. >Still, the Renunciates have good experiences working with men. So does modesty consist in loose clothing? I think the "no way Provocative" must be important too. Don't stance, bearing, manner have a bearing on how one perceives someone? >Shouldn't women be able to wear whatever they want without fear of >sexual objectification or worse? It seems to me unreasonable to expect to be able to wear clothing that reveals, indeed emphasizes, sexual attributes - breast, body shape - and not be 'sexually objectified.' >Six year old girls dressed like rock/porn stars bothers me too. It's when one sees very young prepubescent (awful word) girls wearing clothes intended to emphasize sexual attributes that one realizes just how much they do. At 10:52 AM 1/11/2003 -0500, Pamela Taylor wrote: >Does anybody know of any science-fiction that discusses these issues? It >seems like these kinds of issues are often swept under the rug. Either the >society is desexualized, or clothing is seen as a way to oppress people, or >society has evolved into anyone can wear anything. >Several. >Heinlein, Tanith Lee, Louise Marley. Herbert - Dune. Which is where I would like to bring up Ursula K. Leguin's Always Coming Home. In that society, she imagines, when teenagers reach puberty they put on undyed or white clothing. Especially for girls there is a party, a celebration, and for both sexes a whole set of handsome new clothes specially made. Becoming sexually active after that is a distinct choice. It is felt appropriate, right, that there be a period of abstinence. The period of undyed clothing ends with "coming inland." Without going back to the book (a favourite) I remember a sense that sex is serious though there are not oppressive constraints. >Frances >I once played with a scenario in which everyone wore a specific headband while >working or otherwise closed to sexual advances, and it was a gross breach of >manners to make any approach. Didn't go anywhere, alas. Is the above like the idea you had, Frances? When you say "it didnąt go Anywhere" did you mean you could devise a story into which it fitted? >Where does a personal sense of modesty stop and proscribed modesty begin? I couldn't now wear revealing clothes. And it would do anyone any good if I did - repel them rather. Graceful draperies much better. But I can recognize the desire to feel free, to wear what one likes, to wear clothes that display one's body. But also, surely, a liking for being covered, less vulnerable. And presenting oneself as business-like - work-person-like - academic (student/teacher/student) - like - medic (nurse/doctor) - like. Is there perhaps something about being able to have authority if one is more 'dressed'? >Where does a personal sense of modesty stop and proscribed modesty begin? Proscribed modesty is rules isn't it? Don't look at men. Don't speak first. Must wear skirts. Must wear dark clothes. The extreme, the Taliban and their ilk. But don't we all have a personal sense of modesty? And of how we are looked at. (John Berger on "gaze".) (There is a scene in the film on rape that came out in the late '80s which tries to convey that the woman lawyer, who has gone into the bar to see where the rape occurred is being looked at sexually.) >Either the society is desexualized, or clothing is seen as a way to >oppress people, or society has evolved into anyone can wear anything. > >If they [young men] are surrounded by sexy all the time, what will/do they >consider romantic/sexy? > >Anyone on suitably disinterested terms with any young men to ask? What a good question, Frances. Is anyone going to ask it? Bridgett, I'm really glad you brought this question up. I find it interesting too. And have wondered about it. I find I do rather incline to the more cloth the more graceful - which is likely to be more cloth : more modest. But the face and the eyes free - to be expressive! Well. Having just joined the FEMINISTSF list I received the comments on Perdido Street Station (an attractive title) and finding from them that I was quite sure this was one book I didnąt want to read I was glad tonight to find this discussion of modesty which did interest me and that it arose from Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkovan Guild of Renunciates stories which I am familiar with. I think I would like to visit and stay in Zendara House. If this email gets through but seems awfully long, my apologies. I Shouldn't have gone so long - for one thing I should have stopped and gone to bed. Thank you all. PS: Inconsistencies in MZB's cycles is a tempting topic. Elisabeth ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finding my way. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:58:18 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU E. S. Carnall wrote on 1/12/03 4:39 PM: > This is the first time I've taken part in a list Welcome, Elisabeth! >> When reading The Saga of the Renunciates, I often found myself contemplating > the concept of modesty. > > This is something that interests me very much. Like Angela I question > the garb that means women are seriously underdressed and that seems > suggestive. (Here in Scotland, even when it is winter-cold one sees young > men (and women) in only a cotton t-shirt and open jacket. This seems to me > seriously underdressed too.) Now that's interesting. I live in Southern California, where weather really doesn't influence dress--or lack of it--all that much. But there is a passage in Saga of the Renunciates (p. 296 of my omnibus) where Jaelle decides not to wear the Terran uniform to her first day of work. She finds the uniform not only immodest, but impractical, too. (It is very cold outside.) Jaelle then notes that the buildings are heated "to almost suffocating warmth". I seem to recall other commentary on this in the book, that it was silly for the Terrans to heat their buildings to an extent that prevented acclimation to Darkover. Which brings me to the question: Does climate influence cultural concepts of modesty? I thought about it and it seems to me that modes of dress vary widely from culture to culture in moderate and warm climates. Sure, you have to dress warmly if you live in a cold climate, but in desert regions, there seem to be a wide variety of styles represented. How is that? > I'm very comfortable with seeing women in long robes, but deeply distressed > and indeed angry when, occasionally, I see one wearing a face-mask. Only > the eyes uncovered. In Bujold's Vorkosigan saga, there is a planet (Ceta-something?) that is stratified along both gender and class lines. The culture seems somewhat Asian, and features a sort of Forbidden City. The aristocratic women of this city are not seen in public at all; when they do appear in the presence of others, they do so in opaque bubbles. But we come to find out that these women are the ones who really rule the empire. It is interesting that one of "our" authors used a symbol that represents oppression to most westerners and transformed it into what could be seen as a symbol of power. >> When working with men, the Renunciates take care >> to wear loose clothing and appear in no way provocative. >> Still, the Renunciates have good experiences working with men. > > So does modesty consist in loose clothing? I think the "no way > provocative" must be important too. Don't stance, bearing, manner have a > bearing on how one perceives someone? Good point! MZB does go on about that a bit, too. It is too bad that the Renunciates had to be so careful, though. I suppose it would have been unrealistic otherwise. On the other hand, Camilla seems to have been treated like "one of the guys", but I'm not sure that the Darkovan men considered her to be a *real* woman. (But I sure did!) > Which is where I would like to bring up Ursula K. Leguinąs Always Coming > Home. Thanks for mentioning this one, Elisabeth. I don't think I've read it yet. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:03:09 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Janice E. Dawley wrote on 1/12/03 1:46 PM: >the sad and sympathetic story of Lady Rohana, a woman who chose marriage >and childbearing, not wholeheartedly but out of a sense of duty, and who >finds ways to aid the Renunciates clandestinely throughout her life. Thank you for mentioning Lady Rohana. I thought she was a fascinating character, more real than many of the others. Her character was very well developed. Of course, I may be biased. I tend to like the older women characters in MZB's novels better than the younger main characters. For instance, no matter how old Margali got, she still seemed like a teenager to me. Teenagers are great in coming of age novels (which I love), but it is annoying when an adult in an adult situation reacts and behaves like a teenager. > There is a sincerity to this book that I really appreciate. There is no > pretense on the author's part that she knows the answers to many of the > questions her characters ask. It is interesting that you found this to be a strength, while others saw it as a weakness. > But she is committed to standing up for > certain possibilities, one of which is a space for women to live away from > men and patriarchal systems entirely. If that turns out not to be the > choice that either Jaelle or Magda make in the long run, it is no less > powerful a symbol. Throughout all three books, the Guild Houses are > portrayed in a consistently positive light -- safe havens that in defiance > of convention are not boring! I think this is very important, and something that really caught the imagination of a many readers. I also think you really hit upon something when you describe the Guilds as "safe havens". I don't know if it is just a result of world events, but I have noticed that women don't seem to feel as safe anymore. I am hearing more nostalgia, more longing, and more sentimentality than I did just a few years ago. I wonder if the sales of fem. utopia books are increasing? It wouldn't surprise me. > My favorite section of the book was the first two parts of *Thendara > House*, largely for the "consciousness raising" sessions and the bustle of > life in the guild house, I, too, really enjoyed reading about life in the Guild House. Life in the Guild House seemed very romantic, but not beyond reason; there were still petty arguments, personality conflicts, etc. >The training sessions in the guild house impressed me with their > breadth of subject matter -- this is feminism in the raw, refining itself > through argument and discussion in a way that feels very real. Very well put! > I have to admit that I was surprised by Magda's growing awareness that she > was "a lover of women". That energy was there in Magda's first meeting with > Jaelle, but I didn't think the author would have the guts to develop it. Well, I must be a monogamist at heart, because I was *mad* about Magda's relationship with Jaelle. I wanted to see a deeper relationship with Camilla. > I would have liked to see a > lot more investigation of what made Camilla tick, > Does anyone who has read other Darkover novels know if the story of Magda > and Camilla's experience with the Sisterhood is ever told? I'd be interested in reading more about these things, too. >Jon deCles, from http://home.pon.net/rhinoceroslodge/mzb.htm >(look out for annoying music!) Thanks for sending this, Janice! And for the great comments. Bridgett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 15:52:20 EST From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 1/13/2003 1:15:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, torrence@NCTIMES.NET writes: >> Does anyone who has read other Darkover novels know if the story of Magda >> and Camilla's experience with the Sisterhood is ever told? > >I'd be interested in reading more about these things, too. I think it's done in one of the short story collections. Friends of Darkover they are called right? I'm not sure which collection however. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:43:23 EST From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I've been an MZB fan for a long time, but I think it is because I love her settings and the idea of the Renunciates. But sometimes I find her characters annoying to the extreme, that is when she uses them to clunk you over the head with her feelings about the stupidity of men. On the other hand, I loved the characters Magda/Margali, Camilla, Lady Rohana, and to a lesser extent Jaelle/Shaya. I was appalled when City of Sorcery stopped short of the City. For years I waited for Marion to continue the story of Margali and Camilla, but she never did. There are a couple of Friends short stories which have these characters in a much later time, but they do not reveal much. In one Camilla has withdrawn from society and lives in the middle of the forest somwhere. In another, Margali is fleeing from the Comyn fanatics who killed all the other members of the Forbidden Tower. She looks to the Empire and leaves Darkover all together. I have been tempted to try to write their further adventures myself.... something that MZB would have had no problem with, I think. She loved sharing her world with anyone else who wanted to join in. She mentored many a woman author who were able to find their own voices after starting out in Marion's world. I'm sorry she's gone. I loved going to the bookstore and discovering a new novel by MZB. Now I know she'll never write the one I waited for so long. NightSky ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 19:38:59 -0800 From: Torrence Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: The Saga of the Renunciates To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Margaret Poore wrote on 1/18/03 6:43 PM: > I have been tempted to try to write their further adventures myself.... > something that MZB would have had no problem with, I think. She loved sharing > her world with anyone else who wanted to join in. She mentored many a woman > author who were able to find their own voices after starting out in Marion's > world. She did, very much. Unfortunately, we can't do that anymore. One bad apple ruined it. I couldn't find the official document on this, but here's a copy from: http://www.ceremade.dauphine.fr/~rossi/darkover/short-stories/non-guidelines .uk.html Ann Sharp, ex-editor of the Darkover NewsLetter, was kind enough to send me a copy of the DARKOVER NON-GUIDELINES (coming directly from Elisabeth Waters). I include here this copy: Darkover Non-Guidelines In the summer of 1992, Mrs. Bradley was forced to stop reading unsolicited Darkover stories. At that time she also stopped giving permission for her fans to "play in her yard." One of her fans wrote a story, using MZB's world and characters, which overlapped the setting she was using for CONTRABAND, the Darkover novel she was working on at the time. Since the fan had sent MZB a copy of the story and she had read it, the publisher refused to publish CONTRABAND. This meant that Mrs. Bradley was out several years' work, as well as the cost and inconvenience of having her lawyer deal with a fan who was convinced that she should have a shared byline on a Darkover novel. She does not plan to do any more Darkover anthologies. As things now stand, anyone writing a Darkover story, or using Mrs. Bradley's world or ANY of her characters, is violating her copyright. (Look up "derivative work" in the copyright law if you want the details.) She is NOT giving permission to do this. If she finds out that anyone is using her work in this fashion, she will turn the matter over to her lawyer. It's a shame, but the Darkover books are a large part of her livelihood, and she can't afford to have anyone compromise her copyright in them. Any Darkover stories sent to her are therefore returned or destroyed unread. If you see this notice and you have already written a Darkover story, please either destroy it or rewrite it so completely that it is not a derivative work of Mrs. Bradley's work. ********* Bridgett