Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:37:40 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Midnight Robber, At first To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU So, it's June 7th: time to start talking about Nalo Hopkinson's Midnight Robber. If you've got something you've been itching to say, jump in. If you're looking for a place to start, we could ease into the discussion of this novel with talk of our first impressions and early responses to the work. Were you influenced by the critical acclaim the novel received? Does the fact that it was a NYTImes Notable Book of the Year influence your expectations? Were you impressed by the fact that it was critically acclaimed, shortlisted for the Tiptree Award, the Philip K Dick Award, the Nebula Award, the Hugo Award and the Sunburst Award (I bet I've missed something! )? Did the blurbs on the covers and the inside leaf catch your attention? How did you react to the cover art? Did you notice the varied typefaces in the text in flipping through, the bold for segments of the text (sometimes several pages) and the italicized bits, and note they were intriguing or off-putting? What about the epigraph, David Findlay's poem, "Stolen" beginning "I stole the torturer's tongue / it's the first side of me some see / the first line you hear / first line of defense when I say / 'See this long tongue illicitly acquired - doesn't it suit me well?'" and the story's opening lines "Oho. Like it starting, oui? Don't be frightened, sweetness; is for the best. I go be with you the whole time. Trust me and let me distract you little bit with one anasi story...": did the text's early pages make you curious or cautious? In "Challenging Destiny"'s interview with Nalo Hopkinson, she says: "With every new novel I discover something that you should never do as a novel writer. For instance, never create an action-adventure hero who's breast feeding. That would be Brown Girl in the Ring. Never write a whole novel in Creole; that would be Midnight Robber." What do you think: is this a legitimate no-no or a breath of fresh air? This interview is available at http://home.golden.net/~csp/cd/interviews/hopkinson.htm and although it considers other works as well, there's a fair bit about Midnight Robber which is of interest. I also found her essay "Code Sliding / about Midnight Robber and my use of creole in the narrative" on her website http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/writing/index.html helpful in terms of understanding her use of language in this novel. Because readers are immediately immersed in the characters' Caribbean Creoles, it seems appropriate to start discussing that element of the story right away, but perhaps there were other elements that struck different group members differently. Maybe other aspects of the story provoked an immediate response for you? Did some elements surprise you or give you pause? Were your expectations/assumptions shaken? Throughout your reading did your experience change: did it compare or contrast with your early impressions/responses? Starting here is only a suggestion: if others would rather look at issues surrounding worldbuilding and myth, characterization and gender roles, or something else entirely, go for it. Cheers- Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:07:37 -0600 From: PAT MATHEWS Subject: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU " Never write a whole novel in Creole; that would be Midnight Robber." What do you think: is this a legitimate no-no or a breath of fresh air? This interview is available at http://home.golden.net/~csp/cd/interviews/hopkinson.htm and although it considers other works as well, there's a fair bit about Midnight Robber which is of interest. I also found her essay "Code Sliding / about Midnight Robber and my use of creole in the narrative" on her website http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/writing/index.html helpful in terms of understanding her use of language in this novel. OK - my first introduction to that sort of thing was Heinlein's MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, whose narrator spoke in an English/Russian/generally international Creole. The same device was used in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE. So the concept is not new and caused me no trouble, it just enriched the story. However, it did give the impression of an impoverished backwoods community. Is that just because we associate the Caribbean countries with that? PS - please make it easier to hit Reply or Reply All by sending the postfrom the list, not just the personal email address. I did this by cut & paste. Pat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:37:51 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I'm glad we're starting with the creole. I think that was the most interesting aspect of this book. The "Impoverished backwoods community" feeling probably came more from the fact that the main action took place in a penal dimension than the Island dialect. The beginning of the book concerned the actions of a privileged group of people. They seemed hardly impoverished to me. Also the use of high-tech implants in each individual to monitor his or her movements and control their decisions to a certain extent seemed anything but backwoods. The use of creole did nothing to diminish that. I will say that the use of terms such as "maglev" and other useful sci fi jargon disrupted the flow of the narrative and dialect at times and served to remind me that I was in a futuristic setting, not just an exotic present day one. For me the risk wasn't using a strong dialect to tell a story, but to juxtapose something trivial like the Lone Ranger/Zorro storyline with that of the serious topics of incest, child abuse, and racial and gender stereotyping. That was much more confusing to me. Sue -- Sue Lange Digital Production Manager IEEE Communications Society 3 Park Avenue 17th Floor New York, NY 10016 s.lange@comsoc.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 11:53:43 -0400 From: davebelden Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber - Creole To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I was looking for an easy read when tired, read the first few pages of this, and said - uhoh, this one's going to be more demanding than I can do right now. Picked it up later when in a better state - became a complete enthusiast for the novel. But for me there was that barrier to getting into it. On the other hand, one of my favorite novels is Riddley Walker, which is in a future dialect that seems to owe something to cockney and Caribbean English. As in Midnight Robber, the language is crucial to the whole feel of the book. Yes, it was bold of her to do it like this, but boldness rewarded by creating something unique and wonderful. If it takes a little extra effort for people like me, that's OK. I'd like to know if it limits the book's readership though: I assume it would, despite all the prizes. I bought a used copy, discarded from a public library, and it had 'file under Black Literature' or something like, which I tore off and then wished I hadn't. How absurd. This is a great novel about being human. It would be like dismissing Jane Austen as white literature - which no doubt some people do, to their detriment. Actually I haven't given much thought to whether there should be racial or ethnic or gender categories of literature in our libraries - but I found I was dismayed and disgusted at the thought of this novel being ghettoized away from the General Literature section. Still - it may be better than being stuck in Science Fiction... Back to the Creole. Pat wrote: "However, it did give the impression of an impoverished backwoods community. Is that just because we associate the Caribbean countries with that?" I rolled that round in my mind as I was reading. I loved that this creole that we today associate with impoverished or marginalized people is the tongue of a highly advanced culture at the start of the novel. A classic upending of today's realities. It wasn't particularly believable, because all language will change, but that's true of using mainstream American English for future worlds as well: what language in distant future novels is believable? It maybe feels even more unbelievable than usual though, simply because today this is the language of a small minority today, and one wonders how they came to such a level of power, autonomy, scientific mastery without adopting more of the language of those who have those things today. But then, the novel is as much myth and fantasy as it is hard science fiction. It uses science fiction conventions, and futuristic technology, but quickly leaves that world behind for the forest, which feels much more like a Duanier Rousseau painting, or folk Mexican paintings and sculptures of exotic animals and forests. This isn't a novel where it helps to work out the past history, like it might with Le Guin's Hainish stories, or the technology. I haven't read about the author, or visited her website yet, but did think that her experience of emigration seemed to be wonderfully used in this novel - but that gets onto what the novel is about, rather than just the language it is in. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:59:07 -0700 From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I thought one of the most interesting aspects of the book was the feminization (probably a bad word) of the underlayment of the book. Granny Nanny is a completely different take on most pervasive/invasive computer systems in other sf works. "She" developed because the world was "seeded" with nanomites. Her manifestation/interface both results from the culture and gives it flavor. And contrast that culture flavor with what is found in cyberpunk where pervasive cyberstructures are hacked into to become battle grounds, and where the culture is inward, removed from life -- as opposed to the festival quality of Toussaint. Eshu, a localized cyber manifestation of Granny Nanny serves as a nanny who "embodies" the seemingly loving care of Granny Nanny as she seeks Tan Tan across the dimensions and as "he" ("Eshu" is a masculine name from an African/Caribbean divinity) embeds with the unborn baby. The dark side to this is that the actual parents are harmful; all the nurturing comes from these cyber beings who seem to have advanced into a super-consciousness or aliveness. At the end, when Eshu tells the baby that "your whole body is one living connection with the Grande Anansi Nanotech Interface," it signals a new kind of being. I didn't get the same chills, however, that I get in cyberpunk type books when human and machine merge (or, for example, Star Trek's Borg). The paradigm of New Half-Way Tree also strikes me as female: the great trees that provide sustenance and nurture a peaceful, balanced way of life. This is contrasted with the humans who begin to develop more patriarchal structures that result in slavery and domination of the land. The ending, with Granny Nanny's reappearance, is a hopeful one. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:03:39 -0400 From: davebelden Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Responding to Susan on the feminization of societies - beneficent Granny Nanny and the big trees... Hmmm. But it's the same Granny Nanny who exiles these people to the prison planet where they lead a dog eat dog existence unless they can organize themselves out of it. So it's a nanny with a very sharp line in punishment. There is no reprieve from hell in this system, unless you are innocent, like Tan Tan, as you mention. Is this a 'feminized' (better word required) vision? Of course women can be punitive, I'm not denying that... But something other than a feminist vision seems to be going on here. There was some hope for Tan Tan's baby, yes, but how much will that help the other humans there, given their abandonment by Granny Nanny? The hopefulness in the book for me came more from the ability of some people to organize a decent town in hell, and from the fact that their hell is entirely human-created - i.e. it's taking place in heaven, viz. the beautiful trees and beneficent local culture. (It reminds me of the parable about the people who can't bend their elbows at a feast, and so can't lift the food to their mouths, so are starving and in hell; compared to the other people who can't bend their elbows at a feast, and feed each other, and so are in heaven). For some reason I chose to see the book as metaphors of emigration. The book bio said that Hopkinson's family emigrated when she was a child to Canada. The nanny land could be a child's idealized memory of the land she left behind. A celebratory culture, but with a dark side - it expelled her to a cold land. In the new land, emigrants are at the bottom of the heap, struggling, abandoned, desperate. The natives of the new land are alien, different - some of them are welcoming, and they all live in prosperous comfort, with their females having a much better situation than the oppressed and poor females of the immigrants, their females can fly (a sort of idealized vision that an oppressed immigrant might have of suburban culture), but they can't in the end take the newcomers in, they are in danger of being overrun (white flight?). Still, the newcomers eventually get it together on their own and recreate the celebratory culture they left behind. Is that crazy? It couldn't be taken too far. But the contrasts between brutal facts, families, society, relationships and idealized ones were so strong in the novel. And it's the homeland left behind and the native culture of the new land which are both idealized. The real hope, though, comes in the one town where the prisoners get it together, and in the relationship Tan Tan has with the one good guy in her life, her friend/lover. And it's the lifelines to the homeland that will save them - whether their recreation of carnival or the nanny words in the ear... Dave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:18:53 -0700 From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU davebelden wrote: >Responding to Susan on the feminization of societies - beneficent Granny >Nanny and the big trees... > >Hmmm. But it's the same Granny Nanny who exiles these people to the prison >planet where they lead a dog eat dog existence unless they can organize >themselves out of it. So it's a nanny with a very sharp line in punishment. >There is no reprieve from hell in this system, unless you are innocent, like >Tan Tan, as you mention. Is this a 'feminized' (better word required) >vision? Of course women can be punitive, I'm not denying that... But >something other than a feminist vision seems to be going on here. > I agree that the book's vision is not primarily feminist -- or at least that there are 2nd-wave feminist problems with it (it does have a kick-ass 3rd wave feel to it). I didn't mean that Granny Nanny represents a feminist perspective; hence my "feminized (better word required) underlayment" term. Perhaps if Granny Nanny were more powerful the society would be better. "She" is pervasive and invasive, but did she really engineer the other-dimensional penal colony idea? I had never thought of the book in terms of "metaphors of emigration" as you describe, but I like it very much. I think it helps the reading a lot. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 07:45:14 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Exile To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Dave wrote: "For some reason I chose to see the book as metaphors of emigration. The book bio said that Hopkinson's family emigrated when she was a child to Canada." In your reading of the novel, it would seem you've gotten quite close to the author's intentions. She says in the online interview with David Soyka www.scifi.com/sfw/issue232/interview2.html that although she is still sorting through the themes she was working with in Midnight Robber, one of them was definitely exile: "It's a big theme when you come from a diasporic culture. Where is home? Can you go back there? Or do you have to go forward and make yourself a home elsewhere? Does home reside within you or outside of you?" Susan wrote to Dave: "I had never thought of the book in terms of "metaphors of emigration" as you describe, but I like it very much. I think it helps the reading a lot." To my mind, this is the perfect book for a group discussion like this. I had the feeling, upon finishing reading it, that I might be just about ready to read the book after all that! It made me stretch as a reader and trying to articulate my responses and reactions only intensifies that sense for me. Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 07:31:25 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Technology To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Pat wrote: "However, it did give the impression of an impoverished backwoods community. Is that just because we associate the Caribbean countries with that?" One of the interviews with Nalo Hopkinson that I found most interesting was with David Soyka, who introduces the interview by saying that she had rightfully upbraided him for referring to her work as based in "African-American culture" and catching him "with [his] 'ethnocentricity slip' showing". I feel as though I'm always tugging at my slip and this article helped to clarify some things for me in terms of my own cultural assumptions. If other members are interested, the article appears here: www.scifi.com/sfw/issue232/interview2.html When I think of a backwoods community, I assume technological impoverishment, but in this interview NH says "when I remember that even a clay pot represents a fairly sophisticated technological discovery and invention, the technology-based distinctions between science fiction and fantasy blur." She also reminds the interviewer that the tank in which Janisette hunts down Tan-Tan is quite sophisticated, that they have rubber and metal and alternatives for fuel and engine lubrication and that they can catch up to Toissant very quickly if they organize on New Half Way Tree. What do others here think: does that seem likely to you based on your reading of life on New Half Way Tree? Apparently her thinking on this was influenced, in part, by Uppinder Mehan's ideas about science fiction by writers from India and the difficulties they face in doing the extrapolation that is an inherent part of science fiction. "...one of the things Uppinder said that really got me thinking was that before the western world spread its technology worldwide, other cultures were developing their own metaphors for technologies and their own technologies. That's kind of where Midnight Robber came from." (This is from Donna Bailey Nurse's What's a Black Critic to Do: Interviews, Profiles and Reviews of Black Writers Toronto: Insomniac Press, 2003.) Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 07:38:31 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Granny Nanny To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Susan wrote: "I thought one of the most interesting aspects of the book was the feminization (probably a bad word) of the underlayment of the book. Granny Nanny is a completely different take on most pervasive/invasive computer systems in other sf works." The author talks in an online interview posted on the SFsite about the process of developing this imagined technology, about wondering "what technologies a largely African diasporic culture might build, what stories its people might tell itself about technology." The names and types of technologies are culturally shaped and "[t]he artificial intelligence that safeguards all the people in a planetary system becomes Granny Nanny, named after the revolutionary and magic worker who won independent rule in Jamaica for the Maroons who had run away from slavery." And how curious that this does not have to seem Big-Brotherish, as Susan describes: "I didn't get the same chills, however, that I get in cyberpunk type books when human and machine merge (or, for example, Star Trek's Borg)." Instead, as NH points out, it can be "an affectionate reference to her [Granny Nanny's] sense of love, care, and duty." When asked if this constant surveillance is heaven or hell, the author replies that she was surprised to find, near the end of her world-building, that she had created a utopia, BUT that it isn't a perfect system. "It really does feel like being mothered, and sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's a smothering thing." Dave writes: "...it's the same Granny Nanny who exiles these people to the prison planet where they lead a dog eat dog existence unless they can organize themselves out of it. So it's a nanny with a very sharp line in punishment." How did other members feel about this element of the story? Did it seem to you that the emphasis for the characters was on the "mothering" or the "smothering" side of things? How does the fact that this constant surveillance is perceived as being "feminine" contrast (or does it contrast for you) with the "Big Brother" concept? Does Granny Nanny contribute to your reading of Midnight Robber as feminist fiction or does the idea challenge that reading? Here's the reference for the interview: http://www.sfsite.com/03b/nh77.htm Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 07:36:37 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Midnight Robber, Creole To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Pat wrote: "... Heinlein's MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, whose narrator spoke in an English/Russian/generally international Creole. The same device was used in A CLOCKWORK ORANGE. So the concept is not new and caused me no trouble, it just enriched the story." Dave wrote: "On the other hand, one of my favorite novels is Riddley Walker, which is in a future dialect that seems to owe something to cockney and Caribbean English. In a March 2000 interview with Nalo Hopkinson, she makes specific reference to A Clockwork Orange and Riddley Walker, saying that she reminds herself of these two classics whenever she worries that some readers will find it too much work to read the language she has invented. http://www.sfsite.com/03b/nh77.htm It also may be from that interview that I learned she identifies her background as mixed African, East Indian, Aboriginal, Jewish, Scottish and English and that in Midnight Robber she has blended three English Creoles (Jamaican, Trinidadian and the occasional Guyanese reference) based on her own experiences living in the Caribbean. She also talks in her CodeSliding essay http://www.sff.net/people/nalo/writing/index.html about the way in which a story can demand its own language and specifically mentions Caribbean writer Samuel Selvon who felt that the narrative of The Lonely Londoners only really started to flow when he started writing in what he called "Caribbean language". She says: "If I had written Midnight Robber completely in English Standard, it would have had a very different feel and rhythm. I could say 'Carnival revelry,' but it wouldn't convey movement, sound, joy the same way that 'ring-bang ruction' does." Obviously she, like a number of group members here, is a patient reader (I've been impressed by the fact that in a couple of online interviews she has mentioned substantial lists of current reading and/or favourite writers: she's clearly one of the writers who does love to read) and, as Dave has said, the reader who is patient with any extra effort required to "get into" the story, is rewarded for that patience: "If it takes a little extra effort for people like me, that's OK. I'd like to know if it limits the book's readership though: I assume it would, despite all the prizes." I'd agree that it likely limits the readership. When I think of the number of people I chat with about books, the number amongst them who would be receptive to a book with dialects like these drops dramatically: a disappointing reality, especially when you're personally very keen on someone's work. But I wonder if readers like this wouldn't have been put off by other elements of the story anyway, as it progressed? And I wonder if the author cares (or should care) about this kind of thing: maybe it's another instance of the quantity vs quality argument? (If it's even possible to consider that given the publishers' bottom lines.) Best - Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:23:53 -0500 From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Granny Nanny To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Quoting Marcie McCauley : > How did other members feel about this element of the story? Did it seem to > you that the emphasis for the characters was on the "mothering" or the > "smothering" side of things? > > How does the fact that this constant surveillance is perceived as being > "feminine" contrast (or does it contrast for you) with the "Big Brother" > concept? Does Granny Nanny contribute to your reading of Midnight Robber as > feminist fiction or does the idea challenge that reading? I dunno - the core being (Granny Nanny) was female but the individual instances were male (Eshu). Knowing that, I felt like the system was somewhat gender neutral. Of course, that's radically different from the vast majority of cyberpunk literature, which is very male-centric, and thus felt very different and new. To me, the AI was less harsh in its surveilance and control - the mere fact that the Runners were allowed to exist in headblind housing meant that the AI allowed more freedoms than we usually see in these depictions. So, yes, Granny Nanny seemed more mothering than smothering. IMHO, the story acknowledged female elements of the AI without the AI being a specifically feminist element of the tale. -- Chris Shaffer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:33:13 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Ranger/Zorro To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Sue wrote: "For me the risk wasn't using a strong dialect to tell a story, but to juxtapose something trivial like the Lone Ranger/Zorro storyline with that of the serious topics of incest, child abuse, and racial and gender stereotyping. That was much more confusing to me." This reminds me of NH's Dark Ink essay on her website, wherein she says that the varied heritage that she draws on calls for decision-making as to whether she uses, for example, a "soucouyant", "succubus" or "vampire" as a being, knowing that vampires have "a greater cultural penetration than either soucouyants or succubi", and the realization that she will have to spend more time informing the majority of her readers if she opts for the "soucouyant", with which mainly Eastern Caribbean readers would be familiar. I think now maybe I am so busy looking for soucouyants that I've forgotten how to see the vampires , but I can't see the link with the Lone/Ranger and Zorro (or maybe I need to watch some movies!): can you give an example of what you mean? Perhaps other group members sensed this kind of disparity in the storytelling as well? Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:39:33 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Waves of Feminism To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Susan wrote: "I agree that the book's vision is not primarily feminist -- or at least that there are 2nd-wave feminist problems with it (it does have a kick-ass 3rd wave feel to it)." Normally I would sit back and wait for someone to reply to this kind of message because I don't know where to start myself. I assume that each person has their own definition of what makes a book "feminist", although there may be some common elements, so when the talk of waves comes up I feel a bit lost because it seems as though there is a consensus on what someone affiliated with each wave believes/disbelieves. Having said that, there are a lot of things about this novel that do fit with my personal understanding of feminism. But I think it's likely there are as many opinions on this question as there are members in the group. What do others here think? Are there more elements of the story that challenge your definition of feminism, or more that align with it? Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 11:31:14 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Ranger/Zorro To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU The fact that she becomes the Midnight Robber and begins championing the unfortunate, the mistreated, the poor; righting wrongs; showing up at opportune times seems to me very Lone Rangerish. I don't recall the story of how the Lone Ranger became the Lone Ranger, but I imagine it has to do with some good hearted person finding themselves in a situation where they had to commit a crime. He is hunted after that and cannot reveal his true identity. He is misunderstood and blamed unfairly. In the midst of all that he is a true hero that dispenses justice throughout the lawless west, not asking for recompense or honors. Marcie wrote: >I can't see the link with the Lone/Ranger and Zorro >(or maybe I need to watch some movies!): can you give an example of >what you mean? Perhaps other group members sensed this kind of >disparity in the storytelling as well? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 11:33:15 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fwd: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Waves of Feminism To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Actually it's on my list of things to do today to google "2nd Wave Feminism" and "3rd Wave Feminism," after reading that post. I too feel I'm behind in my theory studies. This book may be considered feminist in that it has a strong female hero. I'm not sure that that's enough to put it into a strongly feminist category, but that's for us to argue about. One thing that does bother me about it and this situation comes up a lot in books, mostly - it seems to me, but I may be wrong - written by men. If a person is a victim of child abuse, especially sexual abuse, I personally (and I have no sociology or psychology background to back up my theory here, so please correct me if I'm way off base), does that experience strengthen them? It seems to me judging from people I have known that have been victims, you do not come out of being abused a champion. It takes much time and maybe therapy to overcome the self-loathing, self-questioning, the self-esteem problems. Child abuse is certainly a complex phenomenon and there are many types of abuse, abusers, and abused so generalizations aren't going to hold any weight here, but in stories where the hero undergoes child abuse and then in their adult years wind up being strong leaders, heros, etc. just don't ring true for me. Yes, it certainly is possible, but books like these never show the psychological battles the protaganist must go through to get from a (abused) to b (strong and capable adult). I feel that this portrayal of a child's sexual abuse making for a stronger adult, really undermines the truth about child and sexual abuse. Strong women have not necessarily been abused as children. I believe the opposite: girls that are believed in and supported without being treated as objects or property or pets or foot-bound princesses grow up to be strong leaders. And it bugs me when authors seem to be saying the opposite in their work. Sue Lange ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:03:31 -0700 From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Waves of Feminism To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Marcie McCauley wrote: >>Susan wrote: "I agree that the book's vision is not primarily feminist -- or >>at least that there are 2nd-wave feminist problems with it (it does have a >>kick-ass 3rd wave feel to it)." > >Normally I would sit back and wait for someone to reply to this kind of >message because I don't know where to start myself. I assume that each >person has their own definition of what makes a book "feminist", although >there may be some common elements, so when the talk of waves comes up I feel >a bit lost because it seems as though there is a consensus on what someone >affiliated with each wave believes/disbelieves. Having said that, there are >a lot of things about this novel that do fit with my personal understanding >of feminism. But I think it's likely there are as many opinions on this >question as there are members in the group. What do others here think? I need to clarify and perhaps rethink what I wrote. I think the book offers a lot for any feminist. Feminist author Marianne Hirsch provides a very basic definition of what constitutes feminist writing: >the “image that pervades feminist writing [. . .], the image of >self-creation—women giving birth to themselves, determining their own course." In this definition, Midnight Robber is an outstanding example of feminist writing. But as Dave Beldon has pointed out, there are perhaps other things the book does that carry a greater thrust than the feminist aspect. The reason I think it has a "third wave feel to it" is that it deals with an individual woman's struggle for freedom and self-knowledge/acceptance (as opposed to 2nd wave that adopted a gender-based identification: I am a woman, I am oppressed, we women are oppressed, we need to take action as women). It also pays a lot of attention to class and economic struggle which, until I read Dave's post about emigration, I was thinking was part of the message about the penal world. The third-wave vision, I believe, is much more likely to champion women's rights as part of a wider consideration of social justice for minority and disenfranchised groups. This wave tends to tout individual empowerment more than 2nd wave (I remember the endless meetings of "sisters" where we mightily strived to think and act communally and politically; we didn't encourage each other to follow our newly discovered "consciousness" to wherever the heck it led us). Xena Warrior Princess seems to me to be a good 3rd wave feminist model: very empowered, very much on the side of the oppressed, very comfortable with her body and her sexiness. Tan-Tan, I think, is more the Xena model than the women in Motherlines, or The Female Man, for example. These women were interested in building and maintaining communities for women. Of course, most women don't think of themselves as part of waves. It seems to me there is great confusion about what being a feminist truly means, and I'm not sure myself. (But that may be part of the attraction of 3rd wave, if I may resort to that once again: you don't have to be tied to one horse; pursuing a "feminist agenda" includes work for social justice in general.) Another aspect to the book is, as someone pointed out in an earlier post, how Hopkinson explored what a high-tech future might look like when it is an outgrowth of Caribbean culture. Compare this to the 2nd wave feminist books (most notably the utopias) where women were exploreing what the future would look like if women ran it or if women were not "shackled" by their role in contemporary (50s-60s) nuclear families. So I guess I'm saying that Midnight Robber is feminist, but it is also a book of emigration, of the Caribbean, of coming of age--of very many things. In an earlier post I talked about a feminized underlayment, and by that I meant the metaphors involved in Granny Nanny and in the Daddy trees. Neither are feminist per se, but they embody traits and images that have been associated with the feminine, with women. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:08:32 -0700 From: Susan Kornfeld Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Ranger/Zorro To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Sue - as to the Lone Ranger, he was part of the Rangers (a Texas law enforcement bunch). Then some outlaw gang (some famous one, I forget which) killed all of them except him: hence the "lone" part of his title. Here I started this post to explain why he wore a mask, but I realize now I'd just be guessing. Perhaps so that he can stand for all of them? Anyway, I do know the name part of it! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:20:38 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Ranger/Zorro To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I was off a bit at my guess. Thanks for the info. Maybe it was Batman I was thinking of. The Hulk? Somebody did something wrong somewhere, I'm sure of it. I know it wasn't the Scarlet Pimpernel. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 11:20:10 -0500 From: lisa cohen Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Ranger/Zorro To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Sue Lange wrote: > I was off a bit at my guess. Thanks for the info. Maybe it was Batman > I was thinking of. The Hulk? Somebody did something wrong somewhere, > I'm sure of it. I know it wasn't the Scarlet Pimpernel. iirc, this is how robin hood wound up in the woods an outlaw, if that helps. lisa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 12:39:42 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Ranger/Zorro To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Yes, I believe you're right. He got in trouble by opposing the bad king John and stayed true to Richard the Lion-hearted who was out having a go with the infidel. At 11:20 AM -0500 6/9/04, lisa cohen wrote: >iirc, this is how robin hood wound up in the woods an outlaw, if that >helps. > >lisa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:49:43 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Rangerishness To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Sue L wrote: "The fact that she becomes the Midnight Robber and begins championing the unfortunate, the mistreated, the poor; righting wrongs; showing up at opportune times seems to me very Lone Rangerish." In the Challenging Destiny Interview, Nalo Hopkinson talks about the roots of the Midnight Robber, a masquerade from the Trinidad Carnival. He wears robber costumes and pretends to waylay people at carnival time, telling his story of being an African prince who was stolen into slavery and forced to become a bandit to survive after his escape. She explains that each Midnight Robber tells their story in their own words: "the words have to be beautiful in themselves, it's not so much about meaning. They'll take words from the Bible, words from westerns, and combine them into this speech." (Spot the Lone Ranger connection there?! ) In the SFsite interview, she says: "I originally set out to write a novel in which a very human person becomes the stuff of legend. I wondered, when Tan-Tan starts hearing the stories that people are telling about her, would she deny them or try to live up to them? Does the story create the legend or the legend the story? And so I wondered what stories people would tell about her, and I decided that - as happens with tales that are passed down through oral tradition - the stories of her life would become blended with older folk tales. All three of the legends I created and inserted into the novel are inspired by existing Caribbean legends and folk tales." That's one of the aspects I found most interesting about the novel: spotting that "line" between Tan-Tan's facts and her fictions. At first I found it hard to settle into the "folktale sections" but it just took a few paragraphs to catch me up. Were others taken by this device, or did they feel it interfered with the "real story"? Marcie Sources: http://home.golden.net/~csp/cd/interviews/hopkinson.htm www.sfsite.com/03b/nh77.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:52:10 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, One Good Guy To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Dave wrote: "The real hope, though, comes in the one town where the prisoners get it together, and in the relationship Tan Tan has with the one good guy in her life, her friend/lover." This book was the topic of discussion in a local F2F reading group recently as well and one of the issues raised was the question of whether the male characters in her novels (Brown Girl in the Ring was under consideration in that group as well) were depicted fairly. There was general agreement about the main female characters being strong and independent, but some felt that the males were not given a fair shake. There is, however, the character of Melonhead in Midnight Robber, who stands in contrast to Antonio. Does it come down to "one good guy" in Midnight Robber? Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:47:12 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, One Good Guy To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Marcie wrote: >Does it come down to "one good guy" in Midnight Robber? No. The native that took her in to the daddy tree after she murdered her father was certainly a good guy.  (My book is packed away so I can't get the name of the character at this moment.) And he certainly was a force in the book. He saved her father and her at the beginning and looked after her throughout her ordeal until she forced separation on them by her actions. He didn't judge her unfairly after the murder and put himself at odds with his community in order to give her shelter. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:10:15 -0500 From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Lone Rangerishness To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Quoting Marcie McCauley : > That's one of the aspects I found most interesting about the novel: spotting > that "line" between Tan-Tan's facts and her fictions. At first I found it > hard to settle into the "folktale sections" but it just took a few paragraphs > to catch me up. Were others taken by this device, or did they feel it > interfered with the "real story"? I never even considered that someone might feel the folk tales interfered with the story. Stepping in and out of the world of the story made it feel real to me. I think the folk tales showed us how others in Tan-Tan's world perceived her. Without them, the prison planet would have been less rich and the other characters would have seemed somewhat one-dimensional. Hearing the stories about Tan-Tan made me feel like the people telling and listening to the stories were real people, weaving tales to make sense of Tan-Tan's impact on their world. -- Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:22:49 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Chichibud To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Sue wrote: "The native that took her in to the daddy tree after she murdered her father was certainly a good guy. (My book is packed away so I can't get the name of the character at this moment.)" Chichibud! What a fantastic character! Whenever I meet a character like this, I marvel at the mind that imagines it. It seems like most of the scifi/fantasy that I read is dystopic, else the "beings" ["Beast that could talk and know it own mind. Oonuh tallpeople quick to name what is people and what is beast."] are humans or nearly so: certainly I've met nobody like Chichibud yet. I guess it must be an extension of the "what if" mechanism that drives most fiction, but I am so impressed by the kind of creative energy that can draw a Chichibud for a reader ... and then to engage the reader with that creation ... to develop a genuine attachment ... it can't be easy. Perhaps some of the other writers on the list would be able to speak to this: what makes a writer reach beyond (relatively accessible) mimetic fiction to create a Chichibud-like character? Does it stem from a generally more imaginative view of the world or is it a conscious device chosen to explore a specific theme/idea? Here's Tan-Tan's first description of Chichibud for those who would like refreshing: "The creature was only about as tall as she. It smelt like leaves. Its head was shaped funny; long and narrow like a bird's. It was ugly for so! Its eyes were on eithe side of its head, not in front of its face like people eyes. It had two arms like them, with hands. Each hand had four fingers with swollen fingertips. Slung across its leathery chest was a gourd on a strap. It carried a slingshot in one hand and had a pouch round its waist. It wore no clothing, but Tan-Tan couldn't see genitalia, just something looking like a pocket of flesh at its crotch. A long knife in a holder was strapped onto one muscular thigh. But it was the creature's legs that amazed Tan-Tan the most. They looked like goat feet; thin and bent backwards in the middle. Its feet had four long toes with thick, hard nails. 'Eshu,' she muttered, 'a-what that?' Static, then a headache burst upon her brain. Eshu didn't answer." Did Chichibud provoke static, then a headache on your reader's brain? Or did you find him intriguing, credible even admirable character like some of us did? Most (maybe all!) of you are more widely read in this field than I am: did the douen remind you of beings you've met elsewhere in this genre, or were they a fresh creation to your mind? Were you surprised at the "true" identity of the "packbirds"? Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:16:56 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG, Midnight Robber, Chichibud To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU >Were you surprised at the "true" identity of the "packbirds"? Yes and no. There was obviously a surprise coming as early on the author hinted at some sort of strangeness with the females of Chichibud's species. I didn't know the surprise was going to be the birds were the females until just before it was revealed. I thought the surprise was going to be that there were no differentiated sexes in Chichibud's species and that the wives didn't really exist. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:20:24 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Midnight Robber, Tan-Tan and Dry Bone To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Over the weekend, I dipped into Nalo Hopkinson's collection Skin Folk (anyone else here read/reading this?) and I was surprised to find "Tan-Tan and Dry Bone". At first I was excited, thinking it was another Tan-Tan story, but it is actually one of the "tales" from Midnight Robber and I didn't recognize it at first. I think it's a good sign when I find myself wanting to read more about a character though. Would others here be keen for more of Tan-Tan and the world of New Half-Way Tree (not necessarily a sequel, but still somehow "more")? Each of the stories in Skin Folk has a wee introduction in italics before the story proper and the one preceding "TT&DB" is as follows: "The Caribbean folktale about what happens to the greedy spider man Anansi when he encounters Dry Bone is one of the eeriest, most sinister I've ever read. In my novel Midnight Robber, the heroine Tan-Tan discovers that her deeds are becoming so legendary that they're passing into folklore. Tan-Tan hears a tale about herself that refers to incidents in her life, but which casts them as fable. People are beginning to confuse her in their minds with Anansi." I didn't recognize Tan-Tan and Dry Bone as an extrapolation because I don't know the story of Anansi and Dry Bone and only have vague recollections of stories about Anansi in school. In the preface to So Long Been Dreaming: Postcolonial Science Fiction & Fantasy**, NH talks about the process by which she wrote her short story (the first in Skin Folk) "Riding the Red", about the way it altered in her re-telling from its roots in European folklore, Little Red Riding Hood (ie. her granny is home in Jamaica on a farm with the tropical bush not far from her door and the wolf is Brer Tiger) and obviously the Anansi/Dry Bone story appears in an altered form as well. With "Riding the Red", I recognized a relationship to "Little Red Riding Hood" right away and I enjoyed spotting the ways that NH extrapolated from the folktale as I knew it. It added another level to my enjoyment of the story. I wonder how my reading experience of Midnight Robber would have been different if I was more familiar with the Caribbean tales that inspired the mythic elements of the novel. I think one of the reasons that I was so impressed by this book is that reading it left me satisfied and yet simultaneously wanting more, wanting to know more and understand more beyond the novel proper. Anyone else have that kind of reaction? Marcie ** Thanks to whoever here recommended this new book from Arsenal Pulp http://www.arsenalpulp.com/select_book.php?book=176 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:16:39 +0000 From: Lola Subject: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber / Non gender-specific writing and Jeanette Winterson To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hi guys Just moved house, and so have spent the morning catching up on the discussion on Midnight Robber since the beginning of the month. Dave Belden said: >was looking for an easy read when tired, read the first few pages of this, >and said - uhoh, this one's going to be more demanding than I can do right >now. Picked it up later when in a better state - became a complete >enthusiast for the novel. But for me there was that barrier to getting into >it. Sadly I have been known to be one of those people for whom an impenetrable dialect or 'folksy' dialogue the whole way through a book can be sufficiently irritating to make me put the book down. I find it distracting initially, and sometimes I just get lazy and want an easy read. Mindful of this personal failing, I persevered despite tiredness, and within 5 pages the Creole had become part of the dialogue that the book itself was having with me, if you know what I mean. I can't now think that the flavour of the story could have come through so effectively without it. Marcie wrote: >It made me stretch as a reader = >and trying to articulate my responses and reactions only intensifies = >that sense for me. I agree with that too - it's something I might not have persevered with on my own, and I'm glad I did. One of those where, on finishing the book, I instantly thought that I must read it again in a week or so, to make sure that I get all I can out of it. Another failing of mine is that of demanding instant gratification from a book - I have a terrible habit of wanting to know what happens, and so my eye leaps down the page seeking plot developments, and misses a lovely passage explaining something vital, or providing an insight into the world of the book. So I will be reading it again! A note on Written on the Body by Jeanette Winterson: One of my favourite books this. One to pass on to your Soulmate. On my first reading, I only realised after finishing the book that the protagonist had never been identified as male or female, although as I read, I had just assumed the character was female. I still don't know why. There are no material clues (clothing or other references); is it because the author is a woman? Because I know she is gay? Because of my own sexuality (I'm bi, but was definitely at the gay end of the spectrum at the time I read it)? Even more interesting, could there be some clue in the behaviour and thought processes of the protagonist that subconsciously directed me to think of them as female? I would love to read more books that did that. I think such devices challenge you to examine your own prejudices and perceptions. Interesting stuff. But enough of that - excellent as it is, 'Written on the Body' is definitely not sci-fi or fantasy. I have wondered in the past about bringing up 'The Powerbook' by the same author as it has a more sci-fi premise. Anyone read it and have any thoughts? I would be interested to see what this list did with a discussion of JW's work. Take care all Laura - - - - - - - - The changes in our life must come from the impossibility to live otherwise than according to the demands of our conscience... not from our mental resolution to try a new form of life. - Leo Tolstoy - - - - - - - - e-m: lolabird@fastmail.fm www: http://myriadesque.blogspot.com msn: frau_lolabird@hotmail.com aol: fraulolabird@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 11:25:03 -0400 From: davebelden Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber / Non gender-specific writing and Jeanette Winterson To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU > A note on Written on the Body by Jeanette Winterson: > > One of my favourite books this. One to pass on to your Soulmate. On my > first reading, I only realised after finishing the book that the > protagonist had never been identified as male or female, although as I > read, I had just assumed the character was female. I still don't know > why. There are no material clues (clothing or other references); is it > because the author is a woman? Because I know she is gay? Because of my > own sexuality (I'm bi, but was definitely at the gay end of the spectrum > at the time I read it)? Even more interesting, could there be some clue > in the behaviour and thought processes of the protagonist that > subconsciously directed me to think of them as female? > > I would love to read more books that did that. I think such devices > challenge you to examine your own prejudices and perceptions. > Interesting stuff. Thanks for the recommendation of this book - I loved her first one - Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit - but got stuck on Sexing the Cherry for some reason and haven't tried her again. The technique of letting the reader go with an assumption that turns out to be wrong or debatable is really a fine one, and hard to write. Nothing better for making one review one's own assumptions, though. I don't have another gender or feminist one to offer, but do recall a John Le Carre spy novel, a slim book, about an American spy in Moscow going under an alias, and when you get to almost the last page you discover that this hero in the wintry land is in fact a Russian in Toronto, at which point everything you read in the novel is turned upside down and you have to think through it again from scratch. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:36:33 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Midnight Robber, Re-reading To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Laura wrote: "I have a terrible habit of wanting to know what happens, and so my eye leaps down the page seeking plot developments, and misses a lovely passage explaining something vital, or providing an insight into the world of the book. So I will be reading it again!" That's a good description of my first read of Midnight Robber too. And, actually, most of the books I read! Even when I start out determined to take a more methodical approach, I often lose track midway through and starting racing along at my usual pace. Jumping from your mention of Jeanette Winterson's *Written on the Body*, here's a bit from her collection of essays, *Art Objects*: "Nevertheless, a real book needs real time, and only by paying it that small courtesy can a reader begin to unravel it." And I like to think that's what an author would want, for her reader to be so swept away by story in a first reading that the simple desire to continue reading it overwhelms all other concerns, providing that the other strengths of the writing seep through enough to encourage a later, more leisurely, read-through. Anyone here already gotten to a re-read of Midnight Robber? Anyone else pick it up for the first time over this past weekend? Never to late to pipe up and share your responses. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:50:52 -0500 From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber / Non gender-specific writing and Jeanette Winterson To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Quoting davebelden : > The technique of letting the reader go with an > assumption that turns out to be wrong or debatable is really a fine one, and > hard to write. Nothing better for making one review one's own assumptions, > though. Back when we were doing the SUNRISE BOOK REVIEW cable show, we did an entire hour of romance novel reviews, without letting it slip that two of them were lesbian romances and two were gay male. Never did get any hate mail; but maybe it just indicates the size of our audience. > I don't have another gender or feminist one to offer, but do recall > a John Le Carre spy novel, a slim book, about an American spy in Moscow > going under an alias, and when you get to almost the last page you discover > that this hero in the wintry land is in fact a Russian in Toronto, at which > point everything you read in the novel is turned upside down and you have to > think through it again from scratch. Weren't there a pair of protagonists, called "Smith" and "Jones"? -- Mike Lowrey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 12:58:31 -0400 From: Gwen Veazey Subject: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I've read with interest the comments on _Midnight Robber_ and Nalo Hopkinson. Have only just managed to finish it, and confess I skimmed some of the "folk tales." The author deserves much credit for accomplishing her vision with this book. She is a gifted writer who knew when to back off from the "foreign language" so that some of her action scenes could soar. For example the knife fight between Antonio and Quashee, and the attack of the giant bird alien "mako jumbie." I lazily did not mark every passage I liked, but noted a few: The paragraph telling us how much Antonio loves his daughter: he was "liquid with love" for her . . . "Antonio loved his Tan-Tan more than songs could sing . . . He could never hold her long enough, never touch her too much." Then a few pages later he's abandoned her, so we know something's screwy. Also liked the image of the hunting knife Tan-Tan receives for her 16th birthday: "Tan-Tan slid the knife out of its sheath. Light winked along the blade edge . . . (She) watched at the knife. It was gun-metal grey. A dark blue sheen chased itself round the blade . . ." After reading posts on the issue of exile relating to the author's move to Canada, I'm wondering if I should reevaluate my positive opinion of Canada? New Half-Way Tree was such a depressing place. One of the things the book did was to make me, a "white Anglo-Saxon Protestant" feel in the minority, out of the loop. Probably good for me. Perhaps someday this novel will be annotated? I found this book such a challenge to read and appreciate. Marcie, I can tell you and others loved it, and I'm clearly in the minority here, and accept that. Beyond the difficult language, I had a hard time getting past the images of filth, stench, misery, stomach-turning food, violence, the plot of a daughter raped by her father, mired in guilt for killing him, even having to give birth to his child. For years, Antonio crept into Tan-Tan's bedroom in the middle of the night, then confounded her with skillful words, sweet talk. So who was the real midnight robber here? Maybe the protagonist had to claim the title character and transform it in a positive way in order to heal? I confess I don't read as much sf/f as other folks on the list, so maybe that's a problem. I liked Hopkinson's _Brown Girl in the Ring_ except for one scene of graphic torture. I think I would like to read anything Hopkinson writes/wrote about moving to Canada, nonfiction. Best, Gwen PS to Dave: my second-hand copy of this book was from the "Social Library" of Whitinsville, MA. PS to Lee Anne: The scene of a woman urinating out her doorway reminded me of a friend's excitement about her rafting trip through the Grand Canyon. One of her (feminine pronoun definitely needed here!) favorite experiences was learning how to pee standing up. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 07:27:44 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Midnight Robber To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU >PS to Lee Anne: The scene of a woman urinating out her doorway reminded me >of a friend’s excitement about her rafting trip through the Grand Canyon. >One of her (feminine pronoun definitely needed here!) favorite experiences >was learning how to pee standing up. This post reminded me I wanted to ask if anybody had ever done this. It's the first I'd ever heard of it, but I'm definitely going to go into the woods and try it. I'm a squatter actually when faced with the lack of amenities, but I'm glad to know this technique is viable. Cheers! Sue -- Sue Lange Digital Production Manager IEEE Communications Society 3 Park Avenue 17th Floor New York, NY 10016 s.lange@comsoc.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:37:11 -0700 From: Marcie McCauley Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Midnight Robber Wind-up, Other NH Books To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Hope everyone who read Midnight Robber for the discussion here found it a rewarding and worthwhile read. As much as I liked it, it does require an element of patience that the majority of my reading friends don't have, but I have urged three friends (two read primarily reality-based fiction and one reads more scifi/fantasy) to read it and they have all enjoyed it despite some early difficulty adjusting to the language. Many in this group were probably already familiar with her work to some degree, but for those who came to her for the first time for this BDG, I hope your experience was a positive one. And if you didn't read the book in time for the discussion, I hope something you heard was of interest and you were encouraged to add it to your TBR list after all. Inspired by digging into the online resources about the author, with this discussion in mind, I recently finished both Skin Folk and The Salt Roads. Theretofore, I would have chosen Brown Girl in the Ring as a good place to start with Nalo Hopkinson's writing, but for those who enjoy short stories, Skin Folk would serve as a nice introduction; a few of the stories in the collection practically beg to be discussed and I found them all satisfying in different ways. The elements of magical realism in her new novel The Salt Roads REALLY appealed to me and I immediately thought of several reading friends who would probably respond very well to it; I think it will widen her readership and yet still satisfy her established readers. The female characters are as gutsy as Tan-Tan (in their own ways) and the stories (there are different timelines) are definitely as (if not more!) compelling ... so do have a look for it if Midnight Robber only whet your appetite. And now it's time for Nicola Griffith's Ammonite ... another great story! Best - Marcie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:03:01 -0400 From: Sue Lange Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Midnight Robber Wind-up, Other NH Books To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Marcie, Thanks for the great windup and pass off to Ammonite. You did a great job on the discussion for Midnight Robber and I think if people want to continue discussing it or even the short stories as you suggest, they should. Nalo Hopkinson has a unique voice and viewpoint and everyone should at least sample her work. She definitely broadens the sf genre and no one else that I have come across writes like her. [snip] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:22:16 -0400 From: davebelden Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Midnight Robber Wind-up, Other NH Books To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU I would like to second Sue Lange's thanks to Marcie for a really excellent job leading the discussion on Midnight Robber. Marcie, you asked a lot of good questions, and we didn't always answer you, or not as fully as you might have hoped. For myself I had run out of things to say early on, but it was a great choice of book, very rewarding and for myself both the book and the discussion definitely lived up to the promise of the listserve and BDG as a way of clueing in to good things I wouldn't otherwise know about. And thanks for the update on Hopkinson's other stuff - I will certainly be keeping a lookout for her work. Dave