Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 20:45:42 EDT From: Christine Ethier Subject: [*FSF-L*] Fox Woman To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Sorry about the delay in the discussion kick off. Lost track of time house breaking a new puppy. So here we go. I first read the Fox Woman because I like reading retellings of legends and the like. And the kitsune, fox, legends are rather neat because women usually have power in them. However, what I liked about the book was the character of Shikujo and how she changes throughout the novel. So here are some discussion questions. 1. Who would people consider to be more "male" (at least in terms of that society) Shikujo or her husband? 2. Is the motivation for Kitsune's change a good one? Does she become something other then a woman in love? Is she defined by the men (males) in her life or does she define them? 3. Why is it that Shikujo and Kitsune understand each other so well? Are they two sides of the same coin? 4. What did you think of the character of the grandfather? Does he use his granddaughter or does he allow her to be what she wants? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:57:05 -0700 From: M M Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Fox Woman To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I need to think a little more about Chris' questions, but I did want to make a few comments. I should preface these by saying I read SF more than fantasy but I do read some fantasy and I definitely enjoyed Fox Woman. One interesting aspect to me was that it seemed much sadder than most fantasy I've read. There was some positive character development but certainly not a successful journey motif or "lived happily ever after" fantasy. I also loved the poetry--both what the characters wrote and the general poetic "feel" of the writing and descriptions. I liked how the poetry was an integral part of their lives and how much trouble the fox woman had trying to figure it out. I was impressed by the details and particularly liked the suggestion that the maid of the fox woman was able to create a "real" life for herself even to the point of writing poetry. The minor characters of the women companions and what their lives were like fascinated me. They weren't exactly servants but they were close. What exactly was the reason for their limited abilities--some appeared to be upper class and educated. Did they become companions because they weren't married-- somewhat similar to upper class but poor, unmarried women in England, US etc. who could become governesses or companions? I also liked the movement between the 3 different diaries; I liked how the fantastic religion aspects were presented. If you're interested in reading more fantastic novels with Asian mythology, try Leah Cutter's Paper Mage which I also just read and liked. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:22:56 -0700 From: Daliel Ben Zedes Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Fox Woman To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Hi everyone. I'm new to the list and hope you won't mind me contributing to the BDG. I just finished reading The Fox Woman and found it very thought-provoking. M M wrote: >I should preface these by saying I read SF >more than fantasy but I do read some fantasy >and I definitely enjoyed Fox Woman. I also don't read that much Fantasy, definitely more SF, but I enjoyed Fox Woman too. A very impressive debut novel. >I [snip] particularly liked the suggestion >that the maid of the fox woman was able to create >a "real" life for herself even to the point of >writing poetry. I thought Josei, the maid of the fox woman, was the most interesting character in the entire book and arguably the most "feminist". Talk about literal self-actualization :) >I also liked the movement between the 3 >different diaries Personally, I thought the 3 diaries thing was a little forced, a literary device constructed solely to create a smooth-flowing narrative, which I'm not sure works all the time. Sometimes I felt the alternation between the diaries was a bit awkward and the story as a whole is rather too long. All that aside, though, I still found it quite beautiful and engrossing. I want to discuss Christine's questions, but I think that would make this email wayyy too long. (If it isn't already!) Let me just make one more comment. Christine Ethier wrote: >the kitsune, fox, legends are rather neat >because women usually have power in them. I was a little frustrated by how powerless the women were in this book. Although Kitsune has very strong magic and Shikujo supposedly has quite a bit of influence at court, both characters find themselves trapped in prisons of their own making. I did like the resolution of the story, though. The character development is subtle and takes a little too long, imo. But you get the feeling, despite the open-ended conclusion, that all the characters have reached some level of peace with and understanding of themselves and each other. I probably never would have picked this book up on my own, but, as you can see, it gave me a lot to think about ;) zenome ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:43:25 -0700 From: Daliel Ben Zedes Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Fox Woman To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU Shoot - one other thing I forgot to mention. Did anyone else notice how Shikujo alternates talking about herself in her pillow book from 1st person to 2nd to 3rd? Kitsune and Yoshifuji always just refer to themselves in the 1st person. I assume that referring to oneself in the 3rd person is probably an effort on Kij Johnson's part to approximate how a medieval Japanese woman would talk/write, but would she mix it up like that? I suppose that as Shikujo develops, she stops referring to herself in the 3rd person as much, but it's pretty subtle. Am I just reading into this too much? zenome ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:35:47 EDT From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Fox Woman To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 6/20/2003 12:33:50 PM EST, zenome@YAHOO.COM writes: > But you get the feeling, despite the open-ended > conclusion, that all the characters have reached > some level of peace with and understanding of > themselves and each other. Actually, I did a search on the book. Apparently Johnson has decided that Fox Woman is to be the first in a planned trilogy. But that wasn't the case when the book was first published. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:38:02 EDT From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Fox Woman To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU In a message dated 6/20/2003 12:43:52 PM EST, zenome@YAHOO.COM writes: > but would she mix it up like that? I > suppose that as Shikujo develops, she stops > referring to herself in the 3rd person as much, > but it's pretty subtle. Am I just reading into > this too much? I don't think so. Shikujo actually breaks free, a little, from the confines of the woman's role. She is more concerned about her son's future then her husband and she is no longer willing to be at her husband's beck and call. She returns to the captail and leaves him. She is getting to be her own person, so the pov would change. It is interesting that Kitsune who is dominated by her passion always refers to herself in first. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 20:54:08 EDT From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Fox Woman To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@UIC.EDU I loved this book. So much, in fact, that I bought about six copies and gave them away as Christmas presents to people who don't ordinarily read genre fiction, and they loved it. I appreciate its lyricism. I got very involved with Kitsune, wanted to smack her upside the head sometimes, but understood her problems. It just seemed to me to be an most interesting take on a different culture. I was intrigued by the author's men--something that doesn't always happen in genre fiction for me. This book touched me, made me sad, made me think, made me sigh. Also made me go back and read a little poetry now and then. Someone mentioned that they felt it was too long. I didn't. I reveled in the leisurely playing out of the drama. Best, phoebew ************************************************************ Bush lied...thousands died...let's talk about impeachment...