Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:52:46 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Next Monday the BDG discussion of the anthology _Flying Cups_ starts. It's the first time we discuss an anthology in this group. For that I have a suggestion concerning the spoiler protocol. Normally 'BDG' in the subject line is the spoiler warning for the book under discussion. I think that's not sufficient in this case as IMO short stories live much more than novels from the punch line. And people should be able to participate in the discussion of a story while they have not yet read the whole book. My suggestion is to avoid all spoilers for stories while discussing the anthology in general under the 'BDG Flying Cups' heading. And to post messages on the single stories under a specific subject, e.g. 'BDG The Lovers' or 'BDG Venus Rising'. In February we discussed a story collection (_A Fisherman_ by Le Guin) and at that time my impression was that because there were all these different storylines the discussion was hampered somehow. Thus, my next suggestion is a schedule for discussion for the various stories to focus discussion on the single stories. When I nominated the anthology I selected 8 of the 13 stories for discussion - as is asked by the BDG nomination rules. I propose the following schedule Dec. 6 Eleanor Arnason, "The Lovers", James Patrick Kelly, "Chemistry" Dec. 9 Carol Emshwiller, "Venus Rising" L. Timmel Duchamp, "Motherhood, Etc." Dec. 13 R. Garcia y Robertson, "The Other Magpie" Delia Sherman, "Young Woman in a Garden" Dec. 16 Ian McLeod, "Grownups" Ursula K. Le Guin, "The Matter of Seggri" Dec. 20 The remaining stories: - Kelley Eskridge, "And Salome Danced" - Ursula K. Le Guin, "Forgiveness Day" - Ian McDonald, "Some Strange Desire" - Graham Joyce, Peter F. Hamilton, "Eat Reecebread" - Lisa Tuttle, "Food Man" This is _only_ a suggestion. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:36:52 -0500 From: Tracy Mitchell Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU (Re: Petra's reading order suggestion) I think your suggestion is a very good one and plan to follow it! Tracy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:20:37 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU The book under discussion in the BDG this month is the anthology _Flying Cups and Saucers_, edited by Debbie Notkin and the 'The Secret Feminist Cabal'. This is an anthology of 13 stories that won or were shortlisted for the 1991-1995 James Tiptree Jr. Awards. The Tiptree Award website at http://www.tiptree.org/book/index.html says about the anthology: 'This first anthology contains almost all of the short fiction that has either won or been short-listed in the first five years of the award.' I checked and if I made no mistake 'Cocoon' by Greg Egan, shortlisted for the 1994 Tiptree is the only shorter piece missing. That astonished me at first but in the first 5 years of the Tiptree much less shorter fiction was shortlisted than in the following years (11 stories for 1998 alone). When I nominated the book I said that it gave a nice indication of the 'present state' of feminist science fiction. Do you think that's right or did the anthology (and thus the Tiptree juries) miss important pieces in the early nineties? Nalo Hopkinson reviewed the anthology for Science Fiction Weekly (only review magazine of scifi.com) http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue90/books.html#fc Quote: 'Now that women are well represented in SF, why is there a Tiptree Award at all? Why reprint some of its short-listed stories in one anthology? Because more than 30 years after James Tiptree Jr. "became" Alice Sheldon, gender, gender roles and sexuality are still contested ground. And not just for women; in 1998, the Tiptree organizers changed the description of the award to read "exploration of _male and_ female gender and gender roles." In a world where gender equality is still seen as a "women's issue," it became necessary to clarify. In fact, the preponderance of intersexed characters in Flying Cups and Saucers would seem to indicate a re-thinking of gender itself, not just gender roles.' Don Webb reviewed FC for Tangent Online http://www.sfsite.com/tangent/books/fly.htm Quote: 'I know this book is three things. 1) It is an important book. 2) It is a good book, and 3) it will be misunderstood and bought (and not bought) for the wrong reasons. [...] It is annoying to write this positive a review, because for the exact reason the book will be mis-sold and mis-unsold. Debbie Notkin did admit to a political agenda. Now I have nothing against political agendas, I am rather busy trying to change the world myself at my weekly internet column http://www.fringeware.com/dwebb/, but many people who feel pro-causa will pick up the book in the same spirit that they might buy high fiber oatmeal. This is sad, because these tales deserve to be read, and read deeply. Others will avoid the book fearing some strident demoness will appear and harangue them. (Actually the idea of a strident demoness sounds rather nice to me.) So I see this work not as a feminist work, despite the nobility that is often in that cause, but a bridge to what could be -- if Science Fiction were written by the partisans of Desire -- and the true deep Xenophilia that runs in our veins is given the license that it so greatly needs.' I have to own I resent these comments. Haven't there been several Nebula and Hugo Award Winner anthologies? And what about 'topical' anthologies? Webb seems to question the Tiptree Award in itself. The stories in the anthology are very diverse and IMO there is no common factor or theme. What astonished me a bit was the seeming predominance of stories focusing on physical/biological aspects of gender, be it hermaphrodites, hormones for love, body changes when growing up, etc.. At the end of the book stories like 'Young Women' and 'Matter of Seggri' were for me sort of a relief. What general impression did you get from the anthology? Petra P.S.: Last week I proposed the following schedule for discussing the single stories (and already I am a day late): Dec. 6 Eleanor Arnason, "The Lovers", James Patrick Kelly, "Chemistry" Dec. 9 Carol Emshwiller, "Venus Rising" L. Timmel Duchamp, "Motherhood, Etc." Dec. 13 R. Garcia y Robertson, "The Other Magpie" Delia Sherman, "Young Woman in a Garden" Dec. 16 Ian McLeod, "Grownups" Ursula K. Le Guin, "The Matter of Seggri" Dec. 20 The remaining stories: - Kelley Eskridge, "And Salome Danced" - Ursula K. Le Guin, "Forgiveness Day" - Ian McDonald, "Some Strange Desire" - Graham Joyce, Peter F. Hamilton, "Eat Reecebread" - Lisa Tuttle, "Food Man" Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:10:20 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG The Lovers To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by Eleanor Arnason, first published in Asimov's, 7/1994 This story is one of my favourites in the anthology. I cannot say much right now because our server will be down soon to be prepared for the New Year. I hope I can add to it tomorrow. As in _Ring of Swords_ the telling is very detached but this time this is due to the telling as a revised legend. I very fondly remember the man (name?) for his humaneness and rationality. She broke a taboo when she defended him and killed other men (who otherwise would have left her completely alone). Because he was already different he could accept that and hide it so that she would not be ostracized. Or do you think it was due to love? Was it due to love or only compassion that she defended him? Did you perceive it as love what was between them? It was downplayed so much, somehow I missed the emotionality that is generally attached to love (some great monologue about that they cannot stay together or so). The Tiptree jury on this story http://www.tiptree.org/1994/short.html 'Arnason has explored this territory before but finds new insights this time around. The story concerns heterosexual love in a world that allows no such thing. The lovers convincingly embody gender choices that neither their society nor ours is quite prepared to sanction. (Brian Attebery) Like Arnason's other "hwarhath" stories, this poignant tale explores gender on several levels, like a mobile of mirrors that catches new reflections with each turning. Neither Eyes-of-Crystal nor Eh Shawin is a revolutionary, yet their love both grows from and profoundly challenges the deepest assumptions of their society. By incorporating comments about the "author" of the tale, and finally its evidently human translator/editor (who might well be Anna Perez of Ring of Swords), Arnason sketches a broader timescape of a culture in transition. I'm impressed! (Susanna J. Sturgis) ' An Eleanor Arnason Page by David Lenander http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/Eleanor%20%26%20trog.html offers among others a story by Arnason and a Hwarhath bibliography at http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m391/d-lena/SmallBlackBox.html Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:10:59 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Chemistry To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by James Patrick Kelly, originally appeared in Asimov's 6/1993. The Tiptree jury about this story http://www.tiptree.org/1993/short.html 'In Kelly's vivid story, all of the interactive negotiations that transpire between lovers have been reduced to chemical transactions. One might think that this love story would end up as interesting as the purchase of a used car, but ultimately it is love story and a touching one. [Steve Brown] A lovely story which makes the distinction between love and sexual attraction in a different way. A sweet love story and good science fiction. If gender-bending can be construed to mean the way men and women relate to each other sexually, as well as socially, this one nicely fills the bill. [Susan Casper] a short story that starts by talking about love as if it were the interaction of chemicals and ends by making the interaction of chemicals a sweet and poignant story of love. [Maureen F. McHugh] ' Don Webb wrote about this story in his Tangent Online Review: '"Chemistry" by James Patrick Kelly explores love parlors where the right mix of hormones can be placed in one's bloodstream to make love the sure outcome of the evening -- and something you're over by dawn. James plays two roles here -- he gives us a sentimental tale of old-fashioned love without chemical boosts on the surface, but shows the power of manipulation and salesmanship as the hero gets the girl on the next level. But then lets us wonder if this is so bad at the core level. This quiet jewelry- like approach is why Jim is so wonderful to read.' James Patrick Kelly's homepage 'Strange but not a Stranger' http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~jimkelly/index.htm Feature on Kelly by Henry Jenkins in Media in Transition in 1997 http://media-in-transition.mit.edu/science_fiction/profiles/kelly_index.html Some more comments tomorrow. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 03:33:23 -0500 From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > The book under discussion in the BDG this month is the anthology > _Flying Cups and Saucers_, edited by Debbie Notkin and the 'The > Secret Feminist Cabal'. This is an anthology of 13 stories that won > or were shortlisted for the 1991-1995 James Tiptree Jr. Awards. > > The stories in the anthology are very diverse and IMO there is no > common factor or theme. What astonished me a bit was the > seeming predominance of stories focusing on physical/biological > aspects of gender, be it hermaphrodites, hormones for love, body > changes when growing up, etc.. At the end of the book stories like > 'Young Women' and 'Matter of Seggri' were for me sort of a relief. > > What general impression did you get from the anthology? > > Petra I got a very similar impression to yours. I tended to favor the more 'exotic' world-building stories of Le Guin and Arnason and such ilk. Most of the stories were too frustratingly short and ended just when I wanted to know what would happen next (a problem I have with nearly ALL short stories which is why I much prefer novels). One story I absolutely HATED because it had no logic or why or wherefore and made no sense to me whatsoever--- Food Man. Still, I'm glad I read it for the provocative ideas and feelings concerning such an important topic as gender issues contained therein. The Le Guin and Arnason stories were worth the price of admission alone--- can't get enough of those particular authors. Amy (avid lifelong reader of SF & F literature in NYC) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:14:27 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Motherhood, Etc. To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by L. Timmel Duchamp Pat is an intriguing character. She is surprisingly strong in a very difficult situation. In the beginning I could not quite understand why she insisted so much on her privacy but when I saw how she was treated I could understand perfectly. The officials (especially the first 2) were surprisingly dumb. It reminds me of one comment in the BDG on _Ring of Swords_ about the dumbness of the military people in that novel. Could it be that it is a sort of cliché nowadays that secret service and military people, even those which are actually intelligent, are dumb (and completely paranoid) in the organizational context? Or is it true? The scene in which Pat has an erection is hilarious but would (such) men really be so discomposed by it? The end (when Pat is rescued by her lover) was too pat in my opinion. I found it important that Pat's transformation is triggered by blood contact due to an accidental (little) wound and not by sex, especially as the 2 interrogators are so fixated on the latter. Don Webb in his Tangent Online Review: 'Hermaphrodites seem to have a fascination for Notkin, since they show up in three other tales as well. The best of them being "Motherhood, Etc." by L. Timmel Duchamp in which an alien alters a woman so that she can impregnate him. This is likewise a good anti-authoritarian tale, that follows the heroism of the woman Pat as she deals with the medical reaction to her growing a penis. It is a very good meditation on loving partners who are difficult.' Anti-authoritarian tale yes, but otherwise IMO this summary does not fit the story. L. Timmel Duchamp's Homepage http://www.halcyon.com/ltimmel/index.html Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:22:03 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Venus Rising To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU by Carol Emshwiller This story I've read some months ago and my memory is not very clear on it. I wondered about the woman who tells the story. What exactly is her motivation to follow the stranger? The story was interesting in that sense that the woman (and her people) are much stronger and more capable (especially in that environment) as the new-comer. But because they don't know rape and exploitation they do not defend themselves. I think only the teller of the story really develops the concept of 'rape'. Are the others raped when they do not know what rape is? The stranger got a glimpse sometimes that what he does is wrong and that he could be much happier in another way but his pre- conceptions inhibit that he realizes it fully. Tiptree jury member (not specified) on the story: http://www.tiptree.org/1992/short.html '"Liked the alien sense of Emshwiller's amphibious people. An explicitly feminist story which also has an underlying, rationalized yet subtle science-fictional rationale. I like the way Venus Rising can be read both metaphorically and as a 'pure' science fiction story." ' Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:38:01 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On 8 Dec 99, Amy Harlib wrote: > I got a very similar impression to yours. I tended to favor the more > 'exotic' world-building stories of Le Guin and Arnason and such ilk. > Most of the stories were too frustratingly short and ended just when I > wanted to know what would happen next (a problem I have with nearly > ALL short stories which is why I much prefer novels). One story I > absolutely HATED because it had no logic or why or wherefore and made > no sense to me whatsoever--- Food Man > > Still, I'm glad I read it for the provocative ideas and feelings > concerning such an important topic as gender issues contained therein. One year ago I would have agreed that I prefer novels to short stories and that the latters are too short (I always need some time to get into the story and when I'm finally there then it's already at the end). But this year I read the Women of Wonder: Classic Years anthology (and part of the Contemporary Years one), then read the Tiptree collection 'Her Smoke Rose Up Forever', _Flying Cups_ and some single stories on the internet and I noticed that by now I somehow 'learnt' how to read a short story. What I mean, I am better 'conditioned' for short stories now. The Food Man story also puzzled me. You said (I paraphrase) that you liked the Arnason and the Le Guin stories best. My favourites in _Flying Cups_ are _The Lovers_, _The Matter of Seggri_ (I somehow do not like _Forgiveness Day_), _Young Woman in a Garden_ and _The Other Magpie_ (that does not mean that I dislike the remaining stories). What favourites do other readers have? To spur the discussion a bit. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:40:01 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 01:38 PM 12/9/99, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: >What favourites do other readers have? To spur the >discussion a bit. I plan to write plenty more on this anthology (as well as the past two BDG books, which I have been too crazy lately to comment on), but this is a question that is easy to answer quickly. "The Matter of Seggri" is a story I have reread several times and still find heartbreaking. I found the way in which Le Guin reverses some elements of sex roles and not others to be very interesting. And I very much enjoyed her technique of beginning with distanced 19th century-style travel narrative and in stages arriving at the very personal, detailed account of Ardar Dez. I felt drawn in inexorably. I think it is one of the best stories Le Guin has ever written. "Grownups" by Ian R. MacLeod gets my vote as the weirdest tale in this anthology. And I mean that in a good way. I am still not sure if the main characters are aliens and futilely resisting their normal developmental process or if some unnatural change is supposed to have occurred to the human race (the necessity of the bitter milk and all that bleeding upon "growing up" seemed to indicate this). Whichever is the case, the story seemed stranger for the suburban setting -- it was really quite creepy. I'm interested to read some other stories by this author. Others that I liked are "The Lovers" and "Forgiveness Day". Perhaps I need to reread stories individually, because when I read the anthology for the first time I became overloaded on the hermaphrodites and felt that some other themes were old hat. I look forward to talking about them more... -- Janice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 03:41:51 -0500 From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > You said (I paraphrase) that you liked the Arnason and the LeGuin > stories best. My favourites in _Flying Cups_ are _The Lovers_, > _The Matter of Seggri_ (I somehow do not like _Forgiveness Day_), > _Young Woman in a Garden_ and _The Other Magpie_ (that does > not mean that I dislike the remaining stories). What favourites do > other readers have? To spur the discussion a bit. > > Petra Young Woman in a Garden was exceedingly well-written but it was purely 'mundane' mainstream INMHO. Where was the speculative/sf content in the story? So the invented 19th century Impressionist painter turned out to be living with lesbian lovers (his wife and his mistress) which is a reversal of the standard hetero-threesome stereotypes where the two women would revolve around the man (the man revolves around the two women in the story). What is fantastical about that? It's a good story but what has it got to do with F & SF? I adored The Other Magpie which I should have mentioned as my favorite along with the Le Guins and the Arnason. It was a wonderful blend of detailed history from a deliciously detailed Native American POV with the added fantastical frisson of ghosts and spirits which were (to the Native Americans) as real as anything in 'ordinary' reality. Not to mention the contrast in attitudes the white men and the natives had towards cross-dressing, gender role expectations and homosexuality! GREAT STUFF! Amy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:29:41 -0800 From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I think it was Amy who said she didn't like to read short stories because just as she gets into them they're over. Maybe that's why I stopped reading them. If it hadn't been for this group I never would have read Flying Cups, what a loss that would have been. Yes, I would have enjoyed having the characters and ideas more fully explored in novels, but these stories are delicious as they stand. I couldn't really go right from one to the next, had to take a day or so and ruminate on each on, and oh, the food for thought they give. Someone asked something to the effect of now that there's equality between males and females in literature is there still a need for the Tiptree. Too funny. I sure don't see the equality. There are so many more male than female characters in everything I read, unless it is specifically feminist, or radical feminist, that I don't see equality anywhere in the foreseeable future. Even the Harry Potter books, written by a woman, willing to explore and validate the magical world of childhood. The main character is male, most of his friends and enemies are male, there are a few ancillary females, one sort of main character who's female but so far, I've read only the first two books, she doesn't have near the development of the males. In almost everything I read that has male and female characters, even if the female is the pivotal character, most of the story goes to the men and their culture. I'm thinking of Jaran and Ring of Swords. In Jaran the woman rides with men and so gets to go on adventures. In Ring of Swords everyone complains that Anna just isn't a fully developed character. Even if one day we get to the point that most books are written with equal emphasis on men and women, will there still be room for the other, ambiguous or just differently expressed genders? I don't see it happening any time soon. I imagine we'll need these Tiptrees just to point out work that can stretch our concept of equality or full expression of personhood. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:46:26 -0800 From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups, The Lovers To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I read The Lovers before Ring of Swords. Arnason can just draw me in. I liked this better than Ring of Swords, I think, because it took place on the home planet, and I liked the development of that culture. Would I have made the decision of Eyes of Crystal to fight to protect my friend-lover even though a fundamental concept of my whole society was that a woman would not fight? I think it took Ring of Swords to make me understand what a tremendous step that violence was for her. Her planet was safe because women didn't fight. Women could build a planet and men could be exiled to space because women didn't fight. I can't think of any such fundamental concept on this world that I would be willing to disregard. Well, there is no such concept, is there? Though sexual equality does not exist, women still may bear or not bear children, work inside and outside the home, love men or women, worship one or many or no gods or goddesses, fight or not fight, be celibate or promiscuous, study physics and/or bake brownies. We may have to face ridicule, ostracism or punishment for our choices, but I can't think of a choice we could make that would destroy our world. And if there were such a choice, I don't know that I'd be willing to make it. By the way, what an intriguing idea that Anna was the translator of the story. It makes sense, but it hadn't occurred to me. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:33:17 -0800 From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups Venus Rising To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU This was my favorite of all the stories. It fits in well with a recurrent discussion on women's spirituality lists. If once there was a goddess honoring culture: matriarchal, egalitarian, life affirming, valuing joy, leisure, self expression and interaction; how did it become buried by the god fearing culture: patriarchal, hierarchical, anhedonic, linear, goal oriented and warlike? I think this story expresses a possible scenario. Venus, who has just come into her good fat (who wouldn't love the honoring of that state?) follows That One around because she loves to learn and he is so different, she wants to see what he will do. She's so open and loving that she thinks she can teach him to feel joy and she wants to experience the different places he goes. He rapes her and he rapes others but it almost feels to them as if he's done nothing there's so little to the act. The others find him boring but Venus is more adventuresome than they and is willing to give him way beyond the benefit of the doubt if he can help her find new things in life to enjoy. So she represents the gatherer hunter society just enjoying life. That One represents the god fearing hordes. He wants to plant his little seed everywhere he can. He wants single handedly (or single penilely) to create a whole new race of red headed tree-ocean dwellers. He apparently has no sense of the value of life, he rapes and kills whomever he needs to get his job done. He is so foreign to Venus that in spite of seeing over and over again the injury he can inflict on her people, she takes almost the whole story to see the extent of the damage he plans. As she says, "It's as if he wants the opposite of fun. Could such a person be?" She doesn't recognize him as evil because evil is foreign to her. In this tale of The Mists of Avalon, the dolphin-hippopotamus Ladies of Avalon win over the orangutan Christians. But there was only one of him this time. When a peace loving people is confronted by a whole tribe of warriors the island recedes into the mist. Three cheers for Venus and her laughing family that they won this round. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 00:53:23 -0800 From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups, the Lovers To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Well, this is more Ring of Swords than the Lovers, but it's the same culture. Last night I saw Soldier with Kurt Russell, and it reminded me so much of Arnason. In it boys are raised from birth to be soldiers. There comes a time when colonists have to decide whether or not it is safe to have in their midst a man who has been trained to do nothing but fight. It was kind of a strange movie. All the soldiers were gorgeous, Kurt Russell, Jason Scott Lee, these were the average looking soldier. The colonist men, besides being really wussy, were mostly unattractive too. A big vote for the strong silent type. Remember when Mr. Spock was the ultimate strong, silent man? Well the soldiers made him look downright garrulous. Unless absolutely necessary to speak, they communicated with a slight nod or shrug. Some were very slight, almost imperceptible. I think Russell did a great job with the material, but what is it telling people? These are the desirable men, the ones who can't talk, can't relate to others, can't even feel or understand their feelings but live only to protect. Best be finding them their own satellites to live on away from us womenfolk. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:01:45 GMT From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Joyce Jones wrote: >There are so many more male than female characters in everything I read, >unless it is specifically feminist, or radical feminist, that I don't see >equality anywhere in the foreseeable future. Even the Harry Potter books, >written by a woman, willing to explore and validate the magical world of >childhood. The main character is male, most of his friends and enemies are >male, there are a few ancillary females, one sort of main character who's >female but so far, I've read only the first two books, she doesn't have >near the development of the males. > >In almost everything I read that has male and female characters, even if >the female is the pivotal character, most of the story goes to the men and >their culture. I'm thinking of Jaran and Ring of Swords. In Jaran the >woman rides with men and so gets to go on adventures. In Ring of Swords >everyone complains that Anna just isn't a fully developed character. Hrrrrm. Well, I was going to suggest Philip Pullman's _The Golden Compass_ and C.S. Lewis' _The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_, since both are very good children's fantasy with a strong, central female character, but then I realized they both took place in such a way that 'most of the story goes to the men and their culture'. Offhand, the only non-male-centred books I can think of are Joan D. Vinge's _The Snow Queen_ and _The Summer Queen_ ... Marianne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:22:57 -0600 From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups, the Lovers To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Joyce Jones wrote, >.... Last night I saw Soldier with Kurt Russell, and it reminded me so >much of Arnason. In it boys are raised from birth to be soldiers. There >comes a time when colonists have to decide whether or not it is safe to have >in their midst a man who has been trained to do nothing but fight. It was >kind of a strange movie. All the soldiers were gorgeous, Kurt Russell, >Jason Scott Lee, these were the average looking soldier. The colonist men, >besides being really wussy, were mostly unattractive too. A big vote for the >strong silent type. Remember when Mr. Spock was the ultimate strong, >silent man? Well the soldiers made him look downright garrulous. Unless >absolutely necessary to speak, they communicated with a slight nod or shrug. >Some were very slight, almost imperceptible. I think Russell did a great >job with the material, but what is it telling people? These are the >desirable men, the ones who can't talk, can't relate to others, can't even >feel or understand their feelings but live only to protect. Best be >finding them their own satellites to live on away from us womenfolk. Yeah, that movie stuck in my mind, too. I think that it was a male-p.o.v. fantasy, depicting an extreme version of the way some men believe they are supposed to act, and the prison this can become. I have been a soldier, was once married to one, and spent about 12 years surrounded by them, and to me this rings true. I have never encountered a group of people with a more well-developed fantasy life, who see themselves as martyrs, in a way, for having voluntarily (as opposed to the forced role Russell's character had to fulfill) accepted both the responsibility for protecting the wimminfolk back home (their pov, not mine) and the rejection of the greater society for the things they have to do to accomplish this. Soldiers--especially in wartime, but also, to some extent, in peacetime--often believe (rightly, imho) that civilians have no understanding of the problems they face and thus are unlikely to be willing to discuss their true feelings and beliefs with anyone who is not or hasn't been in the military. This type of reticent selfprotection can become extreme, although--of course--not as extreme as in the film. But still, some soldiers get a sense of perverse satisfaction out of dwelling on these sacrifices they see themselves as having made and wear their emotional wounds as badges of honor. Incidentally, I believe Kurt Russell's character knows full well what kind of emotional life has been denied him, and this adds to the poignancy of his situation. He knows the civilians have no reason to trust him and he doesn't blame them. All he can do is try to prove himself not a monster. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:57:45 EST From: "Demetria M. Shew" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 12/12/1999 7:02:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, marseillaise@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << Offhand, the only non-male-centred books >> There is a book called Into the painted bear's lair with a woman knight who has silver armor. Wonderful story.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:44:00 -0500 From: Barbara Wolf Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Flying Cups To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On no books with central women characters: what about CJ Cherryh, Robin McKinley, Ursula Le Guin's Tehanu, Tepper's Grass and Beauty.....short stories by Joanna Russ and Charnas' books? Bobbi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:43:14 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Chemistry To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I was intrigued by the premise of this story, but I don't think it followed through on it particularly well. I was hoping for a scientific investigation of what being "in love" is all about, preferably in a way that illuminated or questioned gender roles, but in the final analysis the story seemed quite conventional and unquestioning to me. These are some issues that came to my mind: Steve believes in "love at first sight". Apart from a couple of isolated comments Lily makes, the concept isn't questioned. Maybe the author was making a comment on typical male vs. female approaches to courtship -- after all, Steve knows he is in love right away, whereas Lily needs drugs and persuasion to reach a similar state of mind -- but I didn't get much of a sense of that. It seemed more like they were the lucky winners of the lottery, particularly as we are never given details about what they like about one another. What sort of clientele would a place like the Hothouse really have? Granted, it is not exactly a whorehouse, as *everyone* is a paying customer, but when it boils right down to it, it is selling sex. Maybe people are even more naive in this projected future than they are now, but I find it hard to imagine most women believing, as Lily's roommate apparently does, that it "isn't about sex, it's about feelings". It seems to me that you would have an awful lot of sexual predators showing up at a place like the Hothouse. In an atmosphere of heightened sexual arousal, why would everyone want only one partner? Where are the orgies? I liked all the descriptive details of the Hothouse's architecture -- it seemed like a cross between a mall and an all-night club -- and some of the neurobiology was interesting, but overall I found this story lacking in freshness. Greg Egan has done better with similar themes. And the treatment of the aphrodisiac oil in *Slow River* seemed more realistic. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: The *Velvet Goldmine* Soundtrack "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas