Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:19:30 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] _Dreamsnake_ Discussion Begins Today! :) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hello all, To start the discussion: There was some discussion whether or not _Ammonite_ was science fiction or fantasy because of the lack of "technology" on Jeep. (Technology is in quotes because we are not all agreed on the definition). Along the same lines, is _Dreamsnake_ science fiction or fantasy? What is the "technology" presented? What makes this book sci-fi or fantasy? I am looking forward to discussion of this book. :D Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:11:05 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake discussion begins today To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I know I really enjoyed re-reading Dreamsnake recently, and I hope you did as well. Even better if this was the first time you read it! Today is the first day for discussion. Lindy will be opening it up with a first posting tonight, but if you've been having trouble restraining yourself you don't have to wait for the official discussion leader opening -- go for it! Of course, Dreamsnake discussion is not meant to monopolize the FSF list - feel free to post messages about any FSF-related topic, not just about Dreamsnake. Some policy suggestions before we get into it: The author of this month's book, Vonda McIntyre, is a member of our little community. It worked out well in the Ammonite discussion last month, I think, for the discussion to proceed as if the author were not immediately reading each posting. Let's avoid getting her directly involved in the discussion until things wind down. And regardless of whether the author is present or not, please avoid vague or inappropriate criticisms or personal attacks -- not that we saw any in the last discussion, but it never hurts to say that up front. Another obvious thing that always needs restating: don't always copy the whole message you're responding to - find a pair of scissors and cut out the parts we don't all need to re-read. Finally, don't be afraid to offer opinions or perspectives that differ from the prevailing voice of the discussion, or that are critical of the book. Critical opinions are a great stimulant to discussion and remind us of how many different experiences readers can bring to a book, as we saw last month (many thanks, Blue). Remember to provide examples, and explain why you feel that way about what you read. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:01:42 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: _Dreamsnake_: sci-fi, spec. fiction, or fantasy? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi, Now that I'm home from work, thought I'd answer my own questions. :D >Along the same lines, is _Dreamsnake_ science fiction or fantasy? I received a couple of messages which suggested that it would have been a good idea to have included "speculative" or "alternative" fiction as a choice in my original question. Fair enough. I do prefer at least three choices in most things, myself. Even with the choice of speculative fiction, I see _Dreamsnake_ as science fiction. > What is the "technology" presented? There is a great deal of science and technology inherent in what Snake does as a healer, or did during her training. Manipulation of dreamsnake DNA, manipulation of her pony Swift's DNA, the research necessary to learn what chemicals to feed the cobras and rattlesnakes to obtain the intended effect. The dreamsnakes came from a different world, as well as the flora (and fauna) in the broken dome. There were others. . . (I'm *really* curious about the history of these domes, btw). Evidence of inter-planetary trade occurs with the unbreakable substance used to create the rings around Larril's achilles tendons so that she could not hide her status as a bonded human. > What makes this book sci-fi or fantasy? Sci-fi--Despite the cataclysm previous to the time period covered in this story, humanity has maintained and evolved sophisticated healing arts using available materials/creatures. This is just my take on _Dreamsnake_. I tend toward a very broad definition for science fiction, but I don't feel I have to stretch it to encompass this story. This is a great book. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:57:47 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG - Dreamsnake's sexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU One of the things I found interesting about Dreamsnake was the cultural assumptions about sexuality which were expressed in the different societies. I found Snake and Melissa's characters completely convincing, both very strong people despite very difficult and painful experiences. I liked the complete equivalence between same sex and heterosex relationships in Mountainside, in Jesse's partnership and in other mountain communities. I also liked the way sex was something pleasant and companionable - and not shameful - which you could do with a stranger or a friend without having to be committed for life. As well, a range of longterm partnerships were also okay. I found the idea of biolfeedback control of fertility wonderful - there goes one of women's major equality problems at one stroke. It made the sexual equality more believable. I found the stigmatising of Gabriel because he couldn't do that quite interesting. If he had such a bad teacher, I would have expected Mountainside to have quite a few more people who couldn't do it, but that's a quibble. I found, however, the disgust at the abuse of Melissa in the scene with the mayor did not gel with the very recent banning of bonding or slavery. I can't believe that the two could co-exist. If you have only recently banned slavery, then it has been acceptable up until recently to treat people as commodities and objects, so that would automatically maintain inequalities in sexuality. I also found the mayor's question to Melissa about whether she had wanted the stable owner's sexual abuse uncomfortable. It assumed that someone who looked 10 could "consent" and "choose" to be sexual with an adult. Those concepts have no meaning in an interaction of such unequal power. However, I think this book was written before a lot of the detailed research on child sexual abuse was done, so this is not a major criticism. There were lots of intriguing elements left unexplored - the origin of the domes, the kind of alients the city was interacting with, the politics in the city, the technology of the healers. I found the use of snakes for healing fascinating - alien (to me at least) and believable. However, enough already. Jenny R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:42:06 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: [*FSFFU*] [FSFFU] BDG: Dreamsnake To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I have no problem with defining this as science-fiction--all the phenomena are plausible within this framework, just because something is 'low-tech' or 'small is beautiful' tech doesn't make it 'not science'--but the actual structure of the narrative is, of course, that standard fantasy trope of The Quest. Having said that, it's a meaningful quest (fitting into a pattern of quest as spiritual metaphor) which brings about personal gains as well as a practical pay-off, rather than one of those tedious journeys in search of the Cricket Bat of Doom in order to win the Final Good Versus Evil Test Match... of which there are far too many. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG - Dreamsnake's sexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Did anyone else notice that Merideth (the person who came and found Snake and asked her to help save her partner Jesse, early in the book) is completely genderless? I didn't. I was reading the Tiptree website (http://www.sf3.org/tiptree, in case anybody doesn't know where it is), and in the short list for the retrospective award are some comments that Ursula K. LeGuin made about Dreamsnake. She had noticed it. I had to go back and re-read those chapters, and, sure enough, I couldn't find even one pronoun associated with Merideth (though it's possible I missed one; I was re-reading late last night). Because the name has female connotations in my mind (I know several female Merideths, and no male ones), I read the book assuming that Merideth was female, but the way it's written, that doesn't have to be the case. There's a little bit of convolution noticable when you know what you're looking for, but it's very well-done - I'd read the book twice and never noticed. It makes me wonder, if that character had a name that I don't have a gender-association with already, would I have just assigned a gender, or would it have made me notice the lack of pronouns? So, am I the only one, or is this news to other people, too? Or is Ursula off- base, and I just didn't find the defining pronoun? -Sandy slc@teleport.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:44 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] [FSFFU] BDG: Dreamsnake (Science, Quest, Hero?) To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Lesley, I see what you mean about the combination of Science within the frame of a Quest narrative. I agree that this quest is a meaningful one. Snake finds what she lost, in abundance, as well as the information necessary to perpetuate the "wealth" of dreamsnakes. She also learned that she and her family of healers had been disabled by their inability to imagine how these extraterrestrial creatures were different from terrestrial ones. That's the kind of lesson which fundamentally changes the way one views life and solves problems Does the successful completion of this quest make her a hero? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sandy Candioglos wrote: > Did anyone else notice that Merideth (the person who came and found Snake > and asked her to help save her partner Jesse, early in the book) is completely > genderless? You aren't off-track. Good catch. :) The chapters including this character are written so smoothly that I noticed there were no gender identifying pronouns associated with Merideth/Merry. This served to enliven and refresh this section of the book for me. Gender is so important to the way I see a character, even when I don't want it to matter! Ms. McIntyre wrote to the list several months ago, responding to a question about this character's gender, I think. snip. > - I'd read the book twice and never noticed. It makes me wonder, if that > character had a name that I don't have a gender-association with already, > would I have just assigned a gender, or would it have made me notice the lack > of pronouns? I have a gender association with "Meredith," which bled over into "Merideth." Also, I think that Merideth's nick name (Merry) associated itself with "Mary," or maybe it was the "y" ending that many adult women's nicknames have. (Or in my case, my real name). Like you, I don't know whether I'd have noticed that there were no identifying pronouns if I didn't have that association. I do know that I enjoyed this device because once I learned what Vonda did with Merideth, it expand my awareness about all characters I meet in stories. I consider it a lesson similar to Snake's realization about how her people did not look beyond what they knew in dealing with the dreamsnake reproduction: thinking only in pairs, and not in "triploid." Such an expansion in awareness affects one in every endeavor. Thanks for bringing up the topic. I'd love to hear about how the crafting of these chapters (regarding Merideth's gender) affected others readers. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:33:23 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake comments To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Some general comments on my re-read of Dreamsnake and the discussion so far: To me, it was clearly SF and not fantasy. There wasn't really anything that didn't have or have implied some sort of science-based explanation, which is sort of how I judge the difference. My favorite "technology" presented was the brindled pony. I admit to having a weakness for striped dogs and think a pony version would be fabulous. What a clever example to show as a gene-manipulation science project! I also think the idea of modifying snakes to be pharmaceutical processing and delivery mechanisms is clever and dramatic and makes for a great story vehicle. I think someone on this list pointed out awhile ago the lack of gender identification for the Merideth character. I also missed it on the first read. On the second read, when I was looking for it, it seemed a little awkward. One thing I thought interesting: in at least one place the character's referred to as "Merry" or "Merrie", isn't there a similarly gender-ambiguous character by that name in McIntyre's Starfarers series? People are wondering about the domes, and now I am as well. McIntyre set another book on the same world, The Exile Waiting, and that might have some explanation. I'll pull it off my shelf and look at it next chance I get. I assumed, by the way, that this world was a future Earth. Anyone else make that assumption? I liked the acknowledgement that the alien plants would be dangerous to the native ecosystem, although I think it's more likely that outside of the dome's protection the plants wouldn't survive at all. I think too many authors just assume that terran organisms can function just fine on other planets when it seems so unlikely to me. Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:51:12 -0700 Reply-To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Organization: Actioneer, Inc. Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Dreamsnake discussion? To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Lindy, Good job so far, thanks. Discussion is picking up slowly, but I think with a few provocative posts it should catch fire. Try some posts about sex, that usually works! Or get people to speculate about what the domes are about, or why the people in the city are such jerks. Or why did North hate healers so much? Why are the people in Mountainside so much more beautiful than in other places? I'll keep thinking of questions. Good book, huh! Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:57:44 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On 8 Apr 98 , Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > Sandy Candioglos wrote: > > > > Did anyone else notice that Merideth (the person who came and found Snake > > and asked her to help save her partner Jesse, early in the book) is > > completely genderless? > I have a gender association with "Meredith," which bled over into > "Merideth." Also, I think that Merideth's nick name (Merry) associated > itself with "Mary," or maybe it was the "y" ending that many adult > women's nicknames have. (Or in my case, my real name). > > Like you, I don't know whether I'd have noticed that there were no > identifying pronouns if I didn't have that association. > I'd love to hear about how the crafting of these chapters (regarding > Merideth's gender) affected others readers. Wow, Merideth a woman? The thought never occurred to me when I read the book. I did not notice that identifying pronouns are completely missing (shows me up as a careless reader). However, I don't associate the names Merideth and Merry with female first names. If anything, Merry as a short name reminded me of Merry (male) in _Lord of the Rings_. But if there is no gender-identifying pronoun (I can hardly believe it and will certainly check this evening), why did I see M. as a man? Probably, because I identified his/her behaviour at the beginning as male (man comes on horse to the rescue, etc., yes, I know, I am not very proud of it). I remember that his/her later behaviour I saw as 'modern', 'emancipated' and so on - for a man. As I said, I will reread these chapters carefully this evening and think about it. Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 06:57:22 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Petra, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > Wow, Merideth a woman? The thought never occurred to me when I read > the book. I did not notice that identifying pronouns are > completely missing (shows me up as a careless reader). snip. A careless reader? I don't think so. From what I hear, many of us did not notice there were no identifying pronouns. > But if there is no gender-identifying pronoun (I can hardly > believe it and will certainly check this evening), why did I see M. > as a man? Probably, because I identified his/her behaviour at the > beginning as male (man comes on horse to the rescue, etc., yes, I > know, I am not very proud of it). I remember that his/her later > behaviour I saw as 'modern', 'emancipated' and so on - for a man. As > I said, I will reread these chapters carefully this evening and think > about it. I think that because there are no gender identifying pronouns, Merideth will be seen as female by some and male by some. Merideth is an open character, fitting her/himself to what we bring to the novel, I think. I really like this aspect about this character. Truly, I don't know if I could stand having reading about a lead character, gender unidentified, in a fictional work longer than a long short story. The writing would have to be very good, because I am a product of the history of gender importance. However, I may enjoy trying to break my dependence on knowledge of gender of characters--through a good book. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:13:31 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi, One of things that makes Dreamsnake's world so foreign to me is reflected in the question characters ask travelers: "Is there anything I can do for you?" Where else but a world in which both women and men are able to control their ability to reproduce could people offer to have sexual relations so casually? I have to say, hearing people offer to share a sexual experience with others in the same way a host offers coffee was unnerving. Sex appears to occur by choice. Still, since politeness seems to expect that the offer be made, or the question asked, I'm not completely convinced of the freedom of the one offering the "service." At the same time, I noticed (through Arevin's experience) that it also may be seen as rude if the one asked does not wish to participate. Is this sexual freedom? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:15:51 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I wasn't going to participate in this discussion until I had a chance to reread Dreamsnake. I checked it out of the library a few months ago and liked it so much that I bought a copy. But the following lured me in: In a message dated 98-04-09 10:02:35 EDT, laorka@meer.net writes: > One of things that makes Dreamsnake's world so foreign to me is > reflected in the question characters ask travelers: > > "Is there anything I can do for you?" > > Where else but a world in which both women and men are able to control > their ability to reproduce could people offer to have sexual relations > so casually? > > I have to say, hearing people offer to share a sexual experience with > others in the same way a host offers coffee was unnerving. > > Sex appears to occur by choice. Still, since politeness seems to expect > that the offer be made, or the question asked, I'm not completely > convinced of the freedom of the one offering the "service." > > At the same time, I noticed (through Arevin's experience) that it also > may be seen as rude if the one asked does not wish to participate. > > Is this sexual freedom? One of the reasons I like science fiction is the way in which it forces me to reassess my assumptions. I think we all have a tendency to assume that the way things are is the way things are supposed to be. Science fiction often challenges that premise. We have a strong cultural bias that sex is supposed to be a private sharing between people. That it's too important to indulge in casually, merely as a way of being polite. But is that the way it has to be? Lindy finds it unnerving to have the host offer sex in the same way that s/he offers coffee. Theodore Sturgeon wrote a short story in which a character found it unnerving that his hosts expected him to eat with them (Are you kidding? Do something so private with virtual strangers?) But in our society it's often considered rude to not offer food or drink to a visitor, and sometimes it's rude for the visitor to refuse such an offering. My point is that I'm not sure that in the world of Dreamsnake the question, "Is this sexual freedom?" has any meaning. Sexual freedom, it seems to me, is important only when the act of sex is inherently an important one and the freedom to do so with whomever one wishes is constrained. These are both true in our world, but neither is true in the world of Dreamsnake. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:10:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I reread Dreamsnake last week and, over the weekend, read The Exile Waiting (which I hadn't read before). I was reminded, reading Dreamsnake, of what a rich book it is: something about the juxtaposition of what would normally be cast as dystopian near-future with perfectly hopeful characters made me think much more than usual about the possibilities of the future. It was also a very different experience than the last time I'd read it (probably eight or ten years ago) because at that time, massive nuclear destruction was a much plausible future. I grew up believing in the probability of a nuclear war, and I think everyone of that era did -- the 70s and 80s featured a lot of post-nuclear apocalypse SF, and you don't really see that anymore. So the future proposed in Dreamsnake seems very different to me, now. But, although when we think of the world after a nuclear war we think of doom and gloom and despair, the world we see in Dreamsnake has put a lot of the pieces together again. The City, which as the repository of so much hidden technology ought to be the future, the living, thriving community, is almost literally eating itself. Because they're so scared of going outside they can't grow, they can't change, they can't learn, they're inbreeding themselves to death and they are terrified of any change in the status quo. Whereas outside, a dozen radically different cultures has emerged, and though they hurt each other, they also learn from each other. That Snake says the death of Grass is her own fault for her arrogance and inability to understand a very different people was incredibly striking to me, a way of thinking about human interaction that's so different from anything we're normally taught. So it was even more fascinating to me to read _The Exile Waiting_, which as I understand it was set in Center and written before _Dreamsnake_. The traders from outside, who come during the non-storm season, are mentioned once or twice, but when the city imagines being saved from itself it imagines getting off-world or being saved by people who come from off-world. I assume this inwardly-directed focus has more to do with this book being written before _Dreamsnake_, so that what I see as a very rich collaboration of communities is basically a throwaway plot device; but "knowing" about that outside world, that characteristic read as a symptom of the city's sickness. (I know this is something of a digression, but I'd always been fascinated by the City that, contrary to the standard Quest motif, we never got into. And for me it does enhance the world we see in _Dreamsnake_.) Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:50:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lurima Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 98-04-09 15:11:25 EDT, you write: << (I know this is something of a digression, but I'd always been fascinated by the City that, contrary to the standard Quest motif, we never got into. And for me it does enhance the world we see in _Dreamsnake_.) >> I find it interesting that Vonda sets her story among the people outside the City. She shows the growth of new society rather than the stagnation of the old (and we all know that our culture is getting pretty rank). I also liked the fact that compassion is so much a part of her protagonist--that Snake is willing to sacrifice a lot to help other people, even ones who are unkind to her. I consider this a major step forward from the instant-gratification, look-out-for-number-one shallowness of our society. The one problem I had with the novel is that snakes give me the heebie-jeebies and I couldn't deal with the scenes of snakes biting people. I don't care how different a twist she put on it--snakes are creepy. I notice also that, like Marghe, the protagonist of _Ammonite_, Snake puts together a family in a non-traditional manner. I think that gaining a daughter because you want to save someone from a life of undeserved misery is a beautiful thing. barbara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:30:16 -0400 Reply-To: ligeia@concentric.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lilith Organization: Sanity Assassins, Inc. Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Lurima wrote: > The one problem I had with the novel is that snakes give me the heebie-jeebies > and I couldn't deal with the scenes of snakes biting people. I don't care how > different a twist she put on it--snakes are creepy. Snakes are not creepy! I like snakes! :( In other cultures, snakes are symbols of wisdom, healing (even we use snakes in the caduceus - sp? - the medical profession's symbol) and other good things. The author approaches snakes from the viewpoint of non-Western cultures that saw the snake as a positive force rather than the feelings of horror, disgust, and death that the image of the snake seems to bring up in Western minds. What I liked about "Dreamsnakes" (I read it many years ago) was the way that, although these different cultures lived in a post-holocaust world, they weren't hopeless and suffering but active and striving. I saw the City as a symbol of a dead past that its inhabitants were clinging to. The future was in the outside world despite its dangers. Lilith <:~~~~ -- ************* http://www.concentric.net/~Ligeia/ * The Web * http://members.tripod.com/~othiym/ * Universe * http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2527/ ************* http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Amphitheatre/5057/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:03:50 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@meer.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Anny, Thanks for your response. My discomfort with the host/hostess-like attitude (my definition) regarding sex has nothing to do with any assumption on my part that the way things are in "society" (i.e., the one in which I live) is the way things "ought" to be. Like you, I read Science Fiction to expand my awareness and to experience ways of being unfamiliar to me. (Science fiction, especially feminist, is one of the best ways to effect social change, IMO). Nonetheless, the "host/hostess" offering of sexual interaction twangs something within me. I take it as a sign that I should take a closer look. I said I found it unnerving for people to offer to share a sexual experience via the phrase "is there anything I can do for you," (which happens to be a stock phrase in restaurants where I live). I did not say it was "wrong." > My point is that I'm not sure that in the world of Dreamsnake the question, > "Is this sexual freedom?" has any meaning. This point is a valid one. Perhaps, "is there really personal freedom?" would have been more accurate. I suspect that part of my discomfort is that I cannot be *completely* convinced that in _Dreamsnake_, freedom to participate (even regarding an 'unimportant' act) truly included the freedom to NOT participate. (which may be why I asked the question so poorly). Yes, I am notoriously hard to convince, and this is probably because of my social conditioning regarding relations of any kind between those who hold unequal power. Relations across different levels of power (including sexual activity or not) create a combination which never fails to ring the "danger" bell in my head. I suspect it always will. True, it may be culturally correct to offer your body and energy. Seems that bond-- (or formerly bonded) servants working in a hostel or house would be offering their bodies more often than the people in the town. Is this a perk :D , a chore, or something else? And what about the bonded servants? We can only imagine. At the same time, another perspective could be to look at the phrase as THE accepted way in Mountainside (and other non-desert locations) to express that you are interested in sharing a sexual experience with someone. A polite manner in which to explore mutual interest. Attempting to look at the the range of sexuality within the novel, I find that coerced, or unwilling sex was an obvious issue with only Ras and Melissa. When the Mayor asks Melissa whether she had wanted sexual activity with Ras, it is implied that willingness to participate is the key, despite the power differential. Snake was very comfortable making the offer to show Melissa that safe, sexual feelings can be experienced, indicating comfort with sexual response of children. (Vonda McIntyre's handling of child sexuality in this novel makes me want to re-read Shulamith Firestone). No one forced, or "guilted" Arevin into participating in sexual activity. Still, I cannot rid myself of that cringe when I read the phrase. I think Vonda made a fascinating choice in choosing this phrase to have this meaning. I am wondering if this phrase was carefully crafted, something that just happened, or one of those instantaneous, miraculous combinations which perfectly fit what she had in mind. Science fiction authors often explore contemporary issues within the worlds they create. Perhaps "is there anything I can do for you" is part of one of those issues contemporary to my society. Would I want to live in Snake's society? The temptation to live in a world where no child is born without conscious decision and action by both parents is great. To live where the biological sex of your lovers/friends/casual acquaintances doesn't matter? Absolutely. Where multiple partner families are possible? Oh yeah! If I lived in this culture, perhaps I'd get used to the phrase if I had long-term evidence that of it's equality and safety. Then again, maybe I'd weave a shirt which said "No, there is not a single thing you can do for me, thank you very much!" Hard to know until you're there. Thanks, Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:15:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender Comments: To: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > I'd love to hear about how the crafting of these chapters (regarding > Merideth's gender) affected others readers. I'm actually the person who wrote to the list months ago asking Vonda about her genderless characters. At that time, I was asking about the genderless Merry in *Starfarers*. I too found it very exciting to have a character without a gender, simply because it forces us as readers to either attach a gender to the character, or to ignore gender as a characteristic, which is very hard to do, since it's usually one of the first things we find out about a new character. I have found it quite hard to avoid giving the character one gender or another, but with both of these Merrys (especially the one from *Starfarers*) I can't seem to get totally comfortable with one gender or the other. It makes for a great read, though! pamela bedore department of english simon fraser university But play, you must, A tune beyond us, yet ourselves, A tune upon the blue guitar Of things exactly as they are -Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:02:32 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: _Dreamsnake_: the Domes To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I'm really curious about these domes. What is this material that they, and the rings around Larril's achilles tendons, are made of? What were they for? Since the Broken Dome has alien flora, (which is somewhat compatible with the terrestrial surroundings), does this indicate that aliens lived on the planet before the war? Were the domes (and aliens) targets in the war? Is this why the aliens only deal with Central? Did anyone pick up clues about the domes that would explain (or suggest explanation) for any of these questions? Any speculation? Thanks, Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:05:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG - Dreamsnake--Merideth's gender To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU This is technically off topic, but anyone interested in trying to decipher a genderless character should check out Sarah Caudwell's Professor Tamar in her mysteries "Thus Was Adonis Murdered", "Shortest Way to Hades", and "The Sirens Sang of Murder". All kinds of interesting gender games, as well as the most elegant writing style (somewhat akin to Judith Martin (Miss Manners)). _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:03:15 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control Comments: To: laorka@meer.net To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Lindy-- It seems we're getting into a discussion here on sexual mores in Dreamsnake, which means I'd better say upfront again that I haven't read the book in some months. My comments here may be somewhat incorrect in terms of how they relate to that work. The power aspects of a cultural expectation that sex will be offered to a guest seem to bother you, at least in the sense that you find it unnerving. I don't think I explained myself well in my last letter, and hope that I do better this time. The relationship between host and guest seems to me to include a culturally- based implied contract. Certain behaviors are expected of both host and guest. Suppose that Chris, a dear friend of yours, calls and says, "My cousin has a job interview in your town. Can Lee stay with you?" If you say Yes, you are agreeing to certain behaviors -- to make Lee feel welcome in your home, to provide Lee with a place to sleep and to bathe and to put personal belongings, to make conversation and otherwise provide some amusement to your guest, to supply food and drink. In turn, Lee agrees to certain behaviors. Both of you give up some personal freedom. Our culture doesn't say that the host/guest relationship means that sex must be offered, but if it did I don't see that this is a power issue, at least not between host and guest. I see it only as a part of that implied contract. If it's an expectation in your culture that a host offer sex to a guest, then doesn't the act of agreeing to be host include that offer, just as in our culture agreeing to be host implies the offer of food and drink and sleeping space? Adding servants to the mix complicates the issue. I wasn't raised and do not now live in a situation where household servants are common, so this is more difficult for me to assess. I do know that when such servants were common, houseguests were expected to tip the servants in recompense for the additional work their presence caused. But it seems to me whether it's wrong to demand that a servant have sex with a guest depends on how sex is viewed by that culture. If sex is commonly offered as routinely as food or drink, then maybe for a servant to refuse to have sex with a guest would be viewed as odd behavior, just as refusing to supply the guest with a glass of water would be. Why should the expectation that servants use their bodies and energy to supply guests with sex be seen as any different from them using their bodies and energy to serve food or iron clothes or clean the bathroom for a guest? A servant can't refuse to do those activities, and no one realistically expects that s/he should. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:27:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, AnnyMiddon wrote: (snip) > Why should the expectation that servants use their bodies and energy to supply > guests with sex be seen as any different from them using their bodies and > energy to serve food or iron clothes or clean the bathroom for a guest? A > servant can't refuse to do those activities, and no one realistically expects > that s/he should. Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I think that a host or servant offering sex was a personal choice and not just a matter of politeness. I'm sure that if the guest had not been attractive to the sevant than sex would not have been offered. I think everyone had free choice. I also don't think that having sex with a guest can be equated with cooking and cleaning. Cleaning a room isn't the same as having personal contact. I noticed that there was no mention at all of sexually transmitted diseases. This was rather peculiar even for when the book was written. I would expect that there would be some new types of STDs as well as most of the old ones. I just don't see sex being offered so casually in a world where medical conditions had become primitive (in spite of Snake's ability to manipulate DNA the rest of the world couldn't even manufacture antivenom) and trained healers were rare. > Anny > AnnyMiddon@aol.com Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:47:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: [*FSFFU*] FW: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake comments To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I think this was probably intended for the whole list. -----Original Message----- From: Lurima [mailto:Lurima@aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 13, 1998 4:47 PM To: jkrauel@actioneer.com Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake comments In a message dated 98-04-10 14:47:50 EDT, you write: << I assumed, by the way, that this world was a future Earth. Anyone else make that assumption? >> Yes, it seemed to be a post-Apocolyptic [sp?] story. It was a nice contrast to the Buck Rogers series on TV, in which the characters we saw lived in the clean, white, protective dome, and never gave a thought to the pathetic beings living in the destroyed world outside, except to speak of them condescendingly as "mutants." I kept waiting for one of the "good guys" to offer to share the goodies of life with those on the outside. lurima ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Sexual Mores To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Anny, Thinking about it, the custom in which people may be? are? required/encouraged to offer sexual participation with a guest seems to be regional. During his travels to find Snake, Arevin did not know that others were offering to participate in sexual contact when they asked him if there was anything else they could do for him. I don't know what is acceptable socially/individually sexual activity is for the peoples of the desert. I get the feeling that sex may not be a casual act for his people when emotional love is felt for another (again, from his reaction in the scene with Jean, the herder). He refuses politely when he learns what "is there anything I can do for you" means. This scene is also one which supports that there is choice involved, beyond politeness. Jean explains that "is there anything I can do for you" means that she finds him attractive and wants to share a sexual experience. So, what happens if someone does not find a guest sexually attractive? Or what if one's libido is at a low at that time? (in case one has physiological cycles. . . who knows how people have been affected by the radiation their ancestors survived? Maybe everyone's libido is in full force all the time. :-D ) > The relationship between host and guest seems to me to include a culturally- > based implied contract. Certain behaviors are expected of both host and > guest. snip. > Both of you > give up some personal freedom. True, (at least theoretically--having had the guests from the dark side before. brrrrr......) > Our culture doesn't say that the host/guest relationship means that sex must > be offered, but if it did I don't see that this is a power issue, at least not > between host and guest. I see it only as a part of that implied contract. If > it's an expectation in your culture that a host offer sex to a guest, then > doesn't the act of agreeing to be host include that offer, just as in our > culture agreeing to be host implies the offer of food and drink and sleeping > space? I think it is different because it requires physical contact. Sex when you are not interested is no fun. Having sex with someone you dislike is even worse. I am not saying that this is happening in Mountainside. We have nothing to point to in the book about how things happen when you're not attracted to the host or guest, except in a little bit through Arevin (with Thad, Larril and Jean, and I can't count on it completely because he was not familiar with this custom). I can only speculate, and any guesses will be tainted with my own view, despite any attempt to be absolutely objective. Same sex partners, different sex partners, youngsters of nearly equal age partners, group partners, casual partners. . .none of this causes the tiniest twinge in my gut. The "is there anything I can do for you" also does. I wish it didn't. The situation with Melissa and Ras does, big time. I love Vonda for having a society in which a child's word is trusted and where an individual like Ras is seen as sick AND that the culture requires that they not simply make the offender leave town. A culture which holds itself responsible for the potential damage an offender could do. . . > Adding servants to the mix complicates the issue. snip. > But it seems to me whether it's wrong to demand that a servant have sex with a > guest depends on how sex is viewed by that culture. snip. > Why should the expectation that servants use their bodies and energy to supply > guests with sex be seen as any different from them using their bodies and > energy to serve food or iron clothes or clean the bathroom for a guest? A > servant can't refuse to do those activities, and no one realistically expects > that s/he should. In my mind, because I think everyone should have the opportunity to have limits. For me, this means where my skin starts, other people's rights end. Being economically disadvantaged or having to take a job to survive which requires one share one's body according to anther's will means to me that the culture is not an egalitarian one. I think that _Dreamsnake_ cultures are approaching egalitarian, except Center seems totally capitalistic. Mountainside has capitalistic seeming hierarchies, but people seem to have quite a bit of choice. Places which allow bonding, I don't know. I have to go to work, now, so if I've haven't attended to all of your well-thought out points, I'll have to wait until tonight. Your posts are very well reasoned and thoughtful, IMO. Thanks. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:50:00 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Stacey, > Hope you don't mind me jumping in. :) Of course not. snip. > I noticed that there was no mention at all of sexually transmitted > diseases. This was rather peculiar even for when the book was written. I > would expect that there would be some new types of STDs as well as most of > the old ones. I just don't see sex being offered so casually in a world > where medical conditions had become primitive (in spite of Snake's ability > to manipulate DNA the rest of the world couldn't even manufacture > antivenom) and trained healers were rare. I hadn't even thought of STDs. Good catch. Control of reproduction is not the only consideration. I remember one instance in which someone (Jean) offering to share sexual activity pointedly assured the potential partner (Arevin) that she was healthy, after he indicated that he was not interested. ("I'm healthy, if you're worried"). She would not have said this, I think, if there were *no* worries about STDs or passing on a cold. Yet, the characters seemed very confident that their health would not be compromised through sexual activity. Thanks for bringing this up. Anyone else have thoughts about this aspect? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:37:14 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Melissa To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi, I was thinking about Melissa. Melissa's scene with the Mayor (when Snake is trying to adopt her) is when I get the strongest message about Mountainside's philosophy regarding reproductive control. When Ras declares that Melissa did not need to see a woman's teacher to learn the techniques to control her reproduction, the Mayor flips, and says: "How dare you do such a thing!. . . How dare you endanger her! How dare you condemn her to ignorance and discomfort!" I felt personally comforted by the Mayor's rage, especially after he had reacted negatively to Melissa's scars. That rage was also welcome because I half expected the Mayor to agree (personally, if not officially) with Ras that a disabled/disfigured human had no need to learn to control her reproductive capacity--no one would be able to bear her "unsightliness." Mountainsiders have a great love of beauty (with the flip side being a great discomfort/dislike of "less than beautiful"). So, where in the cultures of _Dreamsnake_ do people with disabilities, like Melissa, fit in? Ras was able to take sick advantage of the result of Melissa's injury. She became a secret--hardly anyone knew (remembered?) she was alive. Her scars from the burns served to isolate her from people who may have helped her. This could not have happened without negative reinforcement from the people with whom Melissa came into contact. I'm a bit surprised that in a society that is so somatically focused (learning bio-control to control reproduction), and the descendents of people who lived with some amount of radiation from the war(s), disability/disfigurement is such a big deal. Life is still tough. Most people don't have access to healers. Makes me wonder why there were so many extremely gorgeous people in Mountainside. Forgetfulness of being unacceptable was the drug North offered to "his people" via the dreamsnakes he found in the broken dome. Why would this be attractive unless there were few options? I see this as another example of the complexity of the world Vonda McIntyre created here. No utopia, but there is still hope. Melissa finds the strength to speak up about what Ras's sexual attacks, and has the opportunity to live a life worthy of her heart. There are lots of things I like about the depiction of Melissa, but I have to get up early tomorrow morning. 'night. Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:01:09 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Yet, the characters seemed very confident >that their health would not be compromised through sexual activity. The likelihood is, that if people aren't massively hung up with guilt and shame about sexuality, and don't have any problems about communicating with partners, health risk will be considerably minimised. Presumably everyone will know about common STDs, their symptoms, and what to do about them, which includes not passing them on, but they won't be paranoid about them. Some things have to be implicit in a fictional narrative: there's nothing more boring than the kind of utopian novel that goes into great, totally undramatised detail about all its terrific arrangements for absolutely everything. Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? Lesley lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: (snip) > Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health > education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? Depending on the type of story and the style, this might be rather interesting. > Lesley > lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:16:14 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Stacy wrote, in reply to my query (snip) >> Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health >> education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? >Depending on the type of story and the style, this might be rather >interesting. Yes, it could be, but only if dramatised within a narrative context (anything could be interesting if so), rather than a 'this is our wonderful STD clinic, it is organised thus and so...' type of tour which too many utopias have. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:52:10 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi everyone! > On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Lesley Hall wrote: > > (snip) > > Do we really want a detailed description of a sexual health > > education class or the organisation of a typical STD clinic? > > Depending on the type of story and the style, this might be rather > interesting. > > > Lesley > > lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com > > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) From a Med. Micro. point of view, I think details on sexual health management would be interesting and educational. There are manyy myths and much data and man theories, and most times the facts are an amalgam of all of those things. I think as Science Fiction can potentially become fact in the future then any venturings of Science Fictionwould provide more imagination; imagination is most important in science when brick walls are hit in research. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:10:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hello again! After reading Lesley's suggestions as to how this could be written, I like the idea even more. It would also provide, in addition to what I mentioned previously, the human perspective on the science (i.e. potential disease victim going through the system), which is probably as important as any other facet of research and is the one thing that many scientists ignore completely. All the science in the world does nothing without manageable implementation. Penny > From a Med. Micro. point of view, I think details on sexual health > management would be interesting > and educational. There are many myths and much data and many > theories, and most times the facts are an amalgam of all of those > things. I think as Science Fiction can potentially become fact in the > future then any venturings of Science Fictionwould provide more > imagination; imagination is most important in > science when brick walls are hit in research. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:07:36 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control: STD clinics To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Has anyone else seen a wonderful Australian film (called, I think, _The Clinic_) which is about a day in an STD clinic? It's a fiction film and perhaps, on retrospection, a little soap-opera-y with all the stories about the staff and the patients that flit through it, but immensely enjoyable. I can't think of any sf stories I've ever read which include STD clinics! Safe-sex appears in some, 'loathsome diseases' in others, but not g-u depts. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:37:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi Lindy and Stacey and everyone-- I've decided that I can't go on discussing sexual mores and reproductive control in Dreamsnake until I've reread the book -- it's getting too embarrassing to have to keep saying that I don't recall the details. I will do so this weekend. Expect more comments from me next week. In the meantime I wanted to respond to this, though: In a message dated 98-04-14 12:35:14 EDT, ausar@NETDOOR.COM writes: > I noticed that there was no mention at all of sexually transmitted > diseases. This was rather peculiar even for when the book was written. I > would expect that there would be some new types of STDs as well as most of > the old ones. I just don't see sex being offered so casually in a world > where medical conditions had become primitive (in spite of Snake's ability > to manipulate DNA the rest of the world couldn't even manufacture > antivenom) and trained healers were rare. I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the interaction of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction of syphilis. I wonder what STDs existed among people in the Americas before Columbus. Gonorrhea? Trichomoniasis? Herpes? Is it possible there were none? Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of STDs inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they will be subject to STDs? Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:06:24 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Page Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Anny said - > Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of > STDs inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected > to have sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain > that they will be subject to STDs? Not at all. When populations are fairly isolated they build up resistance to disease. The main problems occur when two populations meet and give each other the diseases they are resistant to. This applies to STDs just the same as any other. We are globally in the throws of this syndrome, as long distance travel has built up over the last 2000 years bringing waves of epidemics. I think quite a lot can be explained by looking at disease patterns. For example I think the australian and american indigenous populations were fairly disease-free and therefore got decimated by the europeans. Africa had far greater levels of indigenous disease, a lot of them held in parasites, which made it far more difficult for europeans to take over. This was one reason why I liked Dreamsnake, in that it deals with the issue of disease control, which is such an important social issue. Incidentally, in this particular context, an STD 'strand' to the story wouldn't have been out of place would it? However you can't cover everything in one story. Alison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:11:49 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control- STDs To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the > interaction of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction > of syphilis Wrong way round. It is often contended that syphilis came to Europe as a result of the Columbian 'discovery' of the Americas, since the major epidemic outbreak occured during the Italian wars of the late C15th-early C16th, which provided the ideal conditions for the rapid propagation of an STD. Certainly what was known at the time as 'The Great Pox' was florid and virulent for a century or so before a)either becoming less virulent as an organism b) the population developing immune responses and the disease thus become less vivid and slower in its effects. This is still a much debated question, complicated by the existence of non-venereal treponematoses which are often diagnostically indistinguishable from syphilis (e.g. give a postive Wasserman) but are not genital in their origins or effects. Also it's possible that a mild form of syphilis in European sailors, passed through a population without any immune responses to it, might have gained new virulence. Are STDs inevitable? Good but again possibly unanswerable question. One argument re syphilis is that it was originally a non-venereal disease which evolved, as conditions of hygiene etc made non-venereal transmission less viable, into an STD. So there is a logic of the micro-organism as well as the one of human sexual practice. Although I believe genital herpes is a slightly different organism from the 'cold sore' virus causing herpetic sores of the mouth, the timing of the late 70s moral panic about this 'incurable' (if non-fatal) STD did make me wonder whether, in fact, the increasing acceptability and practice of oral sex had had some relationship to its spread - on the other hand, at a time when other STDs seemed, if not in decline, curable, other genital afflictions became more studied and better known (e.g. also Chlamydia). It is not actually having sex with numerous partners which 'causes' STDs (though at one time this was the medical explanation!): it is the statistical probability that the more partners, the more likely that one will have an STD. However, given certain basic hygienic precautions, good sexual communications etc, it is less likely that STDs will run rampant through a society as they did through the - notionally monogamous! - Victorians. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:19:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Penelope Gibbs Organization: UGA College of Vet. Med Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the interaction > of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction of syphilis. I wonder > what STDs existed among people in the Americas before Columbus. Gonorrhea? > Trichomoniasis? Herpes? Is it possible there were none? > > Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of STDs > inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have > sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they > will be subject to STDs? > > Anny > AnnyMiddon@aol.com These are all excellent questions...and history doesn't have all the answers. Some facts are clear: In the here and now, STD's are a fact of life if you have sex. Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical cancer. Women who have an uncircumcized partner also have a higher risk of cervical cancer. Now, where did the diseases come from? The organism that causes Syphilis is found as normal flora in the vagina of sheep. What a pleasant visualization!! (This also explains all the sheep jokes.) Trichomoniasis is a condition where Trichomonas is an organism of the normal flora in certain areas (and in small numbers) of the female reproductive tract that finds its way to other tissues...sort of an "opportunistic" infection. The same is true of Candida (yeast). Of the others, I am unsure of the origins, etc. but I feel certain the CDC should have info available for interested parties. Just FYI...Penny ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:08:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical >cancer. Is this a statistical thing, or is there some specifically causal effect? >Women who have an uncircumcized partner also have a higher risk of >cervical cancer. I've heard of these studies, but I've also been told that at least some of them could be heavily skewed by which communities do and do not circumcise men, and by which communities were used in the studies. I haven't been able to find the studies, so if you have seen them and know more about them I'd love to hear it. Someone else said: > Is the presence of STDs > inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to have > sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that they > will be subject to STDs? And what determines whether we call something an STD? There are a number of nominal STDs that can be picked up in a variety of ways (Hep A and B, for instance, and I think gonorrhea?) -- in a less puritanical or less sex-driven society, would it turn out to be more medically useful to classify them in other ways? In a society in which no one ever touched anyone else except in very limited circumstances, would we make the same stigmatising distinction between diseases spread by physical contact and those spread without? jessie jessie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Penelope Gibbs wrote: > Now, where did the diseases come from? The organism that causes Syphilis > is found as normal flora in the vagina of sheep. What a pleasant > visualization!! (This also explains all the sheep jokes.) There is a common belief in my country that syphilis is a "desease of shepards". Sheep flocks (or packs, or whatever is that called in English) are usually kept in some grassy areas high in the mountains far away from villages, and are led from place to place year around. Men who tend them usually do it alone, or with couple of other men. They can be away from their families for months. Therefore they "live with sheep" (i.e. have sex with them) for the lack of any other sex partner available. Since shepards are far away from people most of the time and live a solitary life, no one can see them do that and therefore punish them. So the main way people know about it is that they get this desease -- syphilis. "The desease of shepards". At least that's what I heard, long ago when I was a teen. BTW, one of the worst and most common male curse words I know in Tajik is "son of a goatfucker". It's funny, but in very traditional, macho third-world countries like Tajikistan, calling a man "gay" is a mortal insult. You can get killed for saying that, because a man who has sex with another man is not a man anymore. And you don't want to be "not a man" in a macho culture, you'd be better off dead. At the same time, having sex with animals for men, even though considered dirty, is still "better" than being gay. I mean, people will probably make fun of him, but they won't spit in his face. I guess raping an animal is kind of more respectable than letting another man penetrate oneself. Maybe because this way, one is still in control. Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:27:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: > >Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical > >cancer. > > Is this a statistical thing, or is there some specifically causal effect? I can bet anything that eventually it will turn out to be the same kind of "scientific fact" as the "Women who hold full-time jobs become infertile". Otherwise, we should expect a big chunk of female generation of 70-s (after the Pill, before AIDS) to die off, rapidly, pretty soon. :( Marina "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:17:53 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: WaterLuv Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 4/20/98 10:19:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, my0203@BRONCHO.UCOK.EDU writes: << It's funny, but in very traditional, macho third-world countries like Tajikistan, calling a man "gay" is a mortal insult. You can get killed for saying that, because a man who has sex with another man is not a man anymore. And you don't want to be "not a man" in a macho culture, you'd be better off dead. At the same time, having sex with animals for men, even though considered dirty, is still "better" than being gay. I mean, people will probably make fun of him, but they won't spit in his face. I guess raping an animal is kind of more respectable than letting another man penetrate oneself. Maybe because this way, one is still in control. >> Wow, Marina; Thanks for the update on Tajik culture, if I may stretch the word so far. My knee-jerk reaction to the above is, "So much for the mores of morons." Sadly, I know enough to realize that these are not nut cases, simply products of a culture very very foreign to the one in which I was reared. Can I say a brief prayer of thanks that I was not born in one of these pits of Machismo? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:47:37 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Disease and Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 10:19 A 20/04/98 EST, you wrote: >> I've heard on a number of occasions that one of the results of the >> interaction of Europeans with Native Americans was the introduction of >> syphilis. I wonder what STDs existed among people in the Americas before >> Columbus. Gonorrhea? Trichomoniasis? Herpes? Is it possible there were >> none? >> >> Maybe a health expert on the list can answer this: Is the presence of STDs >> inevitable? That is, given a population in which people are expected to >> have sex with many partners within their lifetimes, is it near certain that >> they will be subject to STDs? >> >> Anny >> AnnyMiddon@aol.com > >These are all excellent questions...and history doesn't have all the >answers. Some facts are clear: > >In the here and now, STD's are a fact of life if you have sex. I agree!! As for inter-action between different racial groups - STD's have been blamed for serious health problems for whole populations. Particularly gonorrhoea and non-specific reproductive tract infections causing non-specific symptoms such as mild leucorrhoea in women. It is postulated that in some groups where sexual mores are strictly controlled or extremely modest, with cults of virginity and sexual repression for one or both genders, that it was STD's which forced such repression originally. For example, some cultures believe strongly in the association between female tract discharges and disease - which has then led to sexual beliefs and practices such as disgust with regards to female lubrication, ie: some cultures associate the natural lubrication of an aroused woman with leucorrheoa and disease; also, in some cultures the practice of male urination as soon as possible after ejaculation, as a kind of prophylactic in disease prevention. The most common outcome of the milder STD's is sterility in one or both genders, and if children are the gift of God, then lack of them is God's punishment, and if observation of a cause-effect relationship is seen between wanton sexuality-disease-and subsequent sterility, amongst their people - then obviously sex will be seen very differently by these cultures. Observation of such cause-effect in sexual practises, is no different than some cultures being well aware of the cause-effect relationship between contaminating their drinking water supplies with their own or their herd animals' wastes, and subsequent disease. Around the colonised world - STD's have been blamed for bringing hundreds of unique racial groups to the threshold of extinction through sterility - particularly those groups, which may have had a large number of endemic diseases, but not sexually transmitted ones. Hence these groups had no reason to think of sex as being associated with disease, and no reason to practise strict sexual mores/sexual hygiene practises within their group or with others outside it. One of the more unthinking expressions of caucasian contempt for other peoples, is the assumption they are hyper-fertile and "breed like rabbits". In the UK and USA expensive public health campaigns have barely succeeded in keeping STD's at a relatively stable, but still high rate of incidence. Poor countries do not have the luxury of sophisticated testing, tracking or education mechanisms. In the presence of a high incidence of life-threatening diseases, fertility threatening diseases must take second place. Hysterical fears of population explosion means also that 'second-place' will remain a long way behind. There is evidence that AIDS for example, had been endemic in African populations for decades before its emergence in the West, but it is only when the disease threatens our own privileged racial group that any action was taken. During the Vietnam war, approximately 40,000 cases of gonorrhoea and non-specific urethritis were documented every week amongst the armed services in Vietnam despite the armed services policy of condom provision and health-checks etc. Some of them came home to mid-western towns where permissiveness and the Pill was making its first impact. The mechanism was so apparent, that the possibility of germ warfare was discussed as some kind of Asiatic revenge. >Women who have multiple sex partners are at more at risk of cervical >cancer. > >Women who have an uncircumcized partner also have a higher risk of >cervical cancer. > >Now, where did the diseases come from? The organism that causes Syphilis >is found as normal flora in the vagina of sheep. What a pleasant >visualization!! (This also explains all the sheep jokes.) There are other methods of transfer of diseases across species:)) Generally speaking, most bacteria and viruses, and even arthropods like fleas,lice, ticks, mites and mosquito bite vectors of parasites are species-specific in their ability to cause disease. One mosquito can inject a *cocktail* of parasites and organisms into a human host, or cattle host, or birds, but each host species will only be affected by its species-specific disease. New strains of diseases can and do spontaneously erupt within populations however, both human and in animals. I suspect STDs along with all sorts of other diseases will be with us forever. However, whilst the "why" is unknown, and the "when" - on occasion, organisms will cross-species in its ability to cause disease and symptoms. Assisting a lambing ewe, during milking or manual butchering, can transfer organisms from the sheep to the human helpers hands - the bacteria may not be able to survive on open skin for very long, but may have survived long enough for it to colonise the alimentary tract, and/or uro-genital tract which the bacteria found sufficiently adequate for its survival, or possibly it only needed a small random minor mutation in order for it to adapt to a human host - and subsequent transmission to other human hosts. Mutation of such organisms is much more common, than in large animal species such as ourselves, and hence virulence and mode-of-transmission can change quickly. So-called "killer" influenza viruses, are believed to stem from cross-species migration of viruses. For humans in particular, killer strains are believed to have crossed-species from birds, particularly wild migratory water-fowl along the Chinese/asian pacific rim - and along the eastern Atlantic Mediterranean and African coasts. The bird flu virus transfers to domestic bird-flocks, turkeys/chickens etc - but generally needs to circulate in yet another host species, swine/pigs, before it can effectively transfer to humans to cause disease. Since this virus contains segments of DNA/RNA from birds, pigs and humans - there is inadequate immunity, and hence causes massive death tolls. Since the 1960s, world-wide 'sentinel' posts, monitor closely the health of birds and pigs, particularly in places such as Hong Kong and Spain. Bacteria, viruses and insect arthropod vectors can mutate very quickly within a generation or two - this is why we can never really be immune to colds and flu - they mutate slightly every season - so while we retain some immunity from our last infection - the next one will still make us feel ill, the more the virus has mutated, the more seriously ill we will feel. This also is the reason, why infants and young children, and the elderly, will often be more severely affected than healthy young adults - and also, why flu vaccines have to be changed every year. >Trichomoniasis is a condition where Trichomonas is an organism of the >normal flora in certain areas (and in small numbers) >of the female reproductive tract that >finds its way to other tissues...sort of an "opportunistic" >infection. The same is true of Candida (yeast). Candida is also a natural inhabitant of the lower gastro-intestinal tract and anus etc. Opportunistic infections can transfer easily in both men and women from the rectum etc. This is often the case with the use of antibiotics, whereby not only the offending bacteria is killed off, as in a lung infection, or a sore throat etc - but will also kill off other GIT microflora, and microflora in the uro-genital tracts, encouraging the over-growth of some organisms which only cause disease when "out-of-balance". Infants and toddlers, being less conscious of where they put their fingers etc - often transfer candida to their mouth and suffer painful mouth infections of oral candidiasis. Many such infections, of a large array of organisms can infect the upper reproductive tracts of women, without causing any symptoms, and/or spontaneously healing very quickly. As people who have had boils, staphylococcal skin infections, or even long-standing facial acne, can attest, even a mild skin infection can leave a scar. So even with symptoms and early treatment, scarring or damage of soft-tissues such as fallopian tubes, uterus or cervix may have occurred, and in men, it is more often the kidneys, bladder etc. Repeated infections over a life-time, can only worsen the damage. In Dreamsnake however, the issue of STD's was not addressed, nor were serious infectious diseases like cholera, typhoid, salmonella etc addressed, it was assumed that preventative measures on cleanliness of water-supplies, food-supplies and herd animals was practised. I can only assume that with a society so lackadaisical in its sexual mores, that either STD's were not endemic to that particular population, or like ensuring clean food and water, was an inherent assumption of their bio-control training during puberty and not worth mentioning - whereas it was in Sheri Teppers' 'Gate to Womens Country' - which not only recognised the danger of STD's but also enforced quarantine practices on all "itinerants" for all sorts of transmissable diseases. Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:18:14 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake--best cover design To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi all, I remember from previous discussion that the cover of the Dutch edition of Dreamsnake (_Droomslang_) was not one of Ms. McIntyre's favorites. http://www.sff.net/people/vonda/Droomslang.html The cover of the paperback I got in the mid '80's was not much better. The woman featured looked a cross between an appalachian snake handler and Cleopatra. (How many different cover designs have there been? Do hard copies have jackets which differ from the current paperback cover?) Anyway, the cover of my newest copy (Bantam-Spectra) is rather good. I get the feeling that the designer actually read the novel. :) In fact, it was when I was looking at the cover recently that reminded me of something in the book that touched me. When Jesse, Merideth and Alex are spending their last few minutes alone, Snake outside, looking at the sky. When the clouds part, Snake can see stars. She wishes someone were there to share it with her. Such a simple pleasure which Snake's ancestors made so rare. . . Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:26:23 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake--Cultural incorporation To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Given the choice (and means), which cultural, biological, sociological aspects from the societies we visited in _Dreamsnake_ would you choose to incorporate into your own culture? Why? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: donna simone Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake--Cultural incorporation To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU <> Easy. A culture where a woman, alone, can pursue her studies, apprentice her chosen profession, become a master and then easily be able to support oneself in the practice of said profession; to do this while traveling the _globe_ without needing to fear for ones safety anymore than the dangers of the environment may require; and without bearing internalized guilt or externalized condemnation for not bearing young or being constantly demanded to neglect personal desires for a companion's well being vice one's own....... I would be well pleased by those things. donna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:02:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Just a thought: perhaps Snake and her contemporaries are less fixed on sexual intercourse than we are. Much of the talk about cervical cancer and STDs in this discussion has assumed that anyone engaging in "sex" is having intercourse, but I don't recall that this was assumed in the book (though it has been several months since I read it & I am hazy on the descriptive details). It seems logical, given how common bisexuality is in this future world, that people would have a greater repertoire of sexual behaviors to choose from & it definitely seems that they are better educated about sexuality. When you consider how many diseases can be avoided by minimizing direct contact between genitalia, perhaps these folks would rely more on other, equally as pleasant, activities. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC - English Settlement "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:31:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joel VanLaven Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Janice E. Dawley wrote: > Just a thought: perhaps Snake and her contemporaries are less fixed on > sexual intercourse than we are. Much of the talk about cervical cancer > and STDs in this discussion has assumed that anyone engaging in "sex" is > having intercourse, but I don't recall that this was assumed in the book > (though it has been several months since I read it & I am hazy on the > descriptive details). It seems logical, given how common bisexuality is > in this future world, that people would have a greater repertoire of > sexual behaviors to choose from & it definitely seems that they are > better educated about sexuality. When you consider how many diseases can > be avoided by minimizing direct contact between genitalia, perhaps these > folks would rely more on other, equally as pleasant, activities. I don't think so. Control of fertility is so important that it is obvious to me that intercourse is the definition of what was going on. -- Joel VanLaven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Janice E. Dawley wrote: >...perhaps Snake and her contemporaries are less fixed on >sexual intercourse than we are. And Joel VanLaven wrote: >I don't think so. Control of fertility is so important that it is >obvious to me that intercourse is the definition of what was going on. Oh, H-E-double-hockey-sticks... you're right. I must've been projecting what I WISH McIntyre had said onto the text; I really should have skimmed it over again before posting. Sorry. -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/jedhome.htm Listening to: XTC - English Settlement "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:19:41 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake & STDs To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >When you consider how many diseases can be avoided by minimizing >direct contact between genitalia, perhaps these folks would rely more on >other, equally as pleasant, activities. However, they appear nonetheless careful to make sure of their 'biocontrol' against unwanted conception! This doesn't however mean they are only 'doing' penetration: those skittish little sperms can get quite a long way if you're not careful; or at least, that was always the Awful Warning being given in the 50s about 'heavy petting'. Better safe than sorry.... Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marina Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Well, honestly, I won't call it "Tajik culture" by any means. Besides the fact that it would be kind of racist, it also not that localized to be ethnically-specific. At the same time, I do believe that this state of things is pretty common in societies on certain level of development (let's call it medieval). I'm pretty sure that the same stuff used to go on in Europe up to about 200 years ago, and even in early US (therefore "sheep jokes"). The reason for that, in my opinion, that experimenting with one's sexuality in medieval cutures, including the ones existing at the end of the 20th century, is punished very harshly. And animals at least cannot rat on you. The fact that sex with animals is not that popular in modern America, I think is mainly because people in industrialized countries are grossed out a lot easier. If a guy grows up being able to take warm shower every day and change clothes every couple hours, he would be less likely to be intimate with a sheep, no matter how lonely, horny, and far away from civilization he is. (At the same time, you never know. People here say nasty things about "hillbilies" too). Mon, 20 Apr 1998, WaterLuv wrote: > Thanks for the update on Tajik culture, if I may stretch the word so far. My > knee-jerk reaction to the above is, "So much for the mores of morons." Sadly, > I know enough to realize that these are not nut cases, simply products of a > culture very very foreign to the one in which I was reared. Can I say a brief > prayer of thanks that I was not born in one of these pits of Machismo? "Femininity is code for femaleness plus whatever society happens to be selling at the time." Naomi Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:53:15 UT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Reproductive control To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >The fact that sex with animals is not that popular in modern America The Kinsey report found a significant amount, though of course even greater urbanisation and mechanisation of agriculture since the 1940s may have changed that. Lesley Lesley_Hall@classic.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:00:17 -0700 Reply-To: laorka@MEER.NET Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Lindy S. L. Lovvik" Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Control of fertility and cultural change To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In comparing Snake's world to mine (I live in the USA), some of the differences include acceptance of: Sexual interaction in general same sex partnerships/liaisons multiple partner "marriage" and families In addition, I don't recall an impression that rape was common. It didn't seem to be much of a worry to Snake. Do you think the ability of humans to control their reproductive abilities served to affect the culture in this way? Which other way would have this ability affect the societies? Would the ability for each individual to control reproduction really cut the connection (which exists in my culture) between sex and procreation? Would the result be an end to sexual assault (except by those considered to be sick)? True choice of partnership with men and/or women? Lindy -- "If I had my past life to do over again, I'd make all the same mistakes--only sooner." --Tallulah Bankhead http://www.dotgraph.com Resources associated with women, disabilities and writing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:25:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG Dreamsnake To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I loved this book and couldn't believe that so many thoughts were packed into such little space (Victor Hugo would have needed at least 800 more pages to get the same point across). It gave so many ideas for exploration, but here are a few that kept me ruminating: I loved the idea of health care system in which the provision of a method for helping a suffering person accept their illness, pain or death was valued so highly. I didn't, however, understand how this fostering of acceptance could be valued over the assistance of other aspects of health to the extent that healers would not be trained or accepted to practice unless they could have their own dreamsnake. "Accepting the things I cannot change" is a very important part of overall spiritual, mental and physical health, but only one part. However, I guess the reader has to accept this idea in order to provide for the necessity of Snake's journey of discovery. And speaking of discovery, it seemed strange that of all the extreme versions of scientific exploration in the assistance of reproduction of the dreamsnakes, no one in this hyperintelligent community had previously happened upon the idea that the snakes might need to associate in groups of three. The healers traveled all over the planet and must have encountered other people who made the same kinds of association. Jesse, Meridith, and Alex were a family of three. (and by the way, I didn't notice the lack of reference to Meredith's gender and just assumed she was female) I thought I got the idea that the desert clan formed tri-parental families--wasn't there a reference to the older and the younger father of the sick child, or was I missing something there? I guess the healers knew more about science than about sociology. Alas, I gave my book away and don't have it to refer to, so have forgotten the name of Snake's love interest; but that kind of underscores my next point. I'm not much interested in romance in novels because I usually can't figure out what makes the two parties click together. This was just another example of that failing. I could see Snake would find the guy appealing, brave, strong, vulnerable, but so are alot of other people, why pick this one? I could understand more that he in his sheltered life would find Snake exciting, brave, strong, and beautiful. But that he would leave his family in search of her after such a brief, though meaningful encounter didn't click for me. Then after he traveled for however long that took, a young, healthy man with a normal man's sex drive and was able to resist the offer of sex with attractive people just because he had a fantasy about Snake, definitely stretched my ability to believe. The whole couple didn't make it for me. But as I said, many areas for rumination. I'm so glad I read this book. Joyce Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:24:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] list comment / DREAMSNAKE / Looking to the future with BDG To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Ahem, would it be possibble for those list members who are resending all parts of messages they are replying to to snip those? It's difficult to read something which is essentially three messages long, etc. TIA. ++++++++++++++++++ Does anyone else find a particular passage or line will really stand out when reading? In DREAMSNAKE, one hit me fairly early on : "it's impossible to protect anyone completely without enslaving them." That had real resonence for me. I think maybe the reason no one thought of 3 dreamsnakes breeding is because even in the extended family units, there was still a 1:1 ration for reproduction, even if there were more than 2 members in a unit. I've very much enjoyed the discussion. +++++++++++++++++++ Is it time to start looking ahead to the next set of books for discussion? Some people read slower than others, and some have less access to books ... Pax, Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:49:01 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Dreamsnake - 2 to 3 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 01:17 P 23/04/98 GMT+100, you wrote: >On 22 Apr 98 , Joyce Jones wrote: >> And speaking of discovery, it seemed strange that of all the >> extreme versions of scientific exploration in the assistance of >> reproduction of the dreamsnakes, no one in this hyperintelligent >> community had previously happened upon the idea that the snakes >> might need to associate in groups of three. The healers traveled >> all over the planet and must have encountered other people who >> made the same kinds of association. Jesse, Meridith, and Alex >> were a family of three. > >In Arevin's culture partnerships of 3 persons were quite usual, too. I >cannot remember any indication how things were handled in Mountainside >or in the healer's community. I wasn't surprised so much by the triune relationship not being considered by the healers, as it was only one of the parameters of dreamsnake reproduction they hadnt considered. Snake herself gives the reasons why when she is in the pit - the healers also hadnt considered that the dreamsnakes needed cold at some point in their breeding cyle, Snake was stunned to consider the extreme cold that the dreamsnakes were subjected to, and was surprised that they not only survived extreme cold, but seemed to need it for breeding - as the healers had always been careful to keep their dreamsnakes warm. Also, they had few dreamsnakes to begin with - and "couldnt afford the luxury of experimenting". >On 22 Apr 98 , Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > >> In comparing Snake's world to mine (I live in the USA), some of the >> differences include acceptance of: >... >> multiple partner "marriage" and families > >That is one of the point I am not quite satisfied with in the novel, >and exactly because multiple partner marriages are something new and >different for the Western culture in which pairs are seen as normal >and threesomes are reduced to something titillating and by its very >nature short-lived (remember the movie _Lonesome, twosome, threesome_ >(or something like that) a few years back?). There are certainly more >examples of that. > >However, in the novel we "experience" the formation of only one >partnership, that between Snake and Arevin, a pair. There is a short >description how it was with Jesse, Meredith and Alex but for me that >left out too much. _Because_ it is a very alien concept for me (I >mean because of all the ideas of romantic love I carry around with >me) I wonder how such a partnership actually comes into existing. How >do 2 persons in love decide that they need/tolerate a third person >and how do they decide which person should be that? And how does it >work then? What rules are developed? And I think there have to be >some customs how to react and what to expect in certain cases. The >only novel I know describing that (but also only in retrospect and at >the point the relationship is falling apart) is _Summer people_ by >Marge Piercy (no sf). There are certainly others, but only in a sf or >fantasy novel it can be described in a context in which a multiple >partnership is not a curiosity. > >Any thoughts? I have friends who are in multiple partnership - or group marriages. One of which is a threesome of gay women, who have lived together for about 10 years now. The other is 5-way partnership of 2 men and 3 women who have been stable for over 15 years:)) All of these friends have mentioned the fact that they do not advertise to *anyone* the full extent of their relationship as a group bond. In the case of the heterosexual partnership, originally it was two married couples who came together with one of the women's sisters - even after 15 years, 5 children of mixed biological parentage, and buying two large houses in a suburban duplex and knocking out adjoining walls, fences and redesigning their living arrangements - they still allow their families, neighbours etc to think they are all just "good friends" :))) They do not feel comfortable explaining to people their relationship, or demonstrating affection in public for example - because they feel that too many outsiders would be insensitive and automatically assume that they are sexually kinky..or as one of the men put it: " they cant help asking if we all sleep 5 to a bed every night, do we fuck in pairs, homosexually, in threesomes etc; or if we have *favourites*, or if we experience jealousy all the time, ". In other words, most people expect exclusive sexual access to just one person, anything else degrades the value of sex, turns it kinky or titillating with visions of pornography etc - and believe they would be jealous, or feel emotionally betrayed or injured in some way - to have that "exclusive" sexual bond broken. In Dreamsnake - I found this aspect of multiple marriage - the most believable of arrangements - as it ensures the care of children far more successfully than any pair-bond could or would - by having a number of adults around. Also, when you take a society which views sex with strangers casually, or as a kind of "courtesy" , then that culture would not see multiple marriage as *strange* - but *natural*. I think the distinction everyone is having trouble with is the distinction between sex for fun, and sex within a relationship. And when I see the enormous amount of literature over several centuries (if not milennia) which protrays the huge emotional pain and anger and bitterness and just everyday problems humans have had trying with heroic effort to keep pair-bonds going over time - and then people wonder about sky-rocketing divorce rates - I wonder if the pair-bond is as *natural* as we all assume it is. As Germaine Greer said " If marriage is so _natural_ then how come every culture no matter how primitive or civilised, has to invent laws, rituals, taboos, romantic myths, movies, fairy-stories etc in order to perpetuate, force and re-inforce it? If it was a _natural_ event - it would happen naturally, and would not require the force of law, tradition, ritual wedding feasts, ritual seclusion, body-mutilation, dinner-party honeymooner jokes or "how to keep your marriage alive" books and magazines to encourage or enforce it". Julieanne ppp98@cs.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:17:11 GMT+100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG Dreamsnake - 2 to 3 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU On 22 Apr 98, Joyce Jones wrote: > And speaking of discovery, it seemed strange that of all the > extreme versions of scientific exploration in the assistance of > reproduction of the dreamsnakes, no one in this hyperintelligent > community had previously happened upon the idea that the snakes > might need to associate in groups of three. The healers traveled > all over the planet and must have encountered other people who > made the same kinds of association. Jesse, Meridith, and Alex > were a family of three. That is a very good point. In Arevin's culture partnerships of 3 persons were quite usual, too. I cannot remember any indication how things were handled in Mountainside or in the healer's community. On 22 Apr 98 , Lindy S. L. Lovvik wrote: > In comparing Snake's world to mine (I live in the USA), some of the > differences include acceptance of: ... > multiple partner "marriage" and families That is one of the point I am not quite satisfied with in the novel, and exactly because multiple partner marriages are something new and different for the Western culture in which pairs are seen as normal and threesomes are reduced to something titillating and by its very nature short-lived (remember the movie _Lonesome, twosome, threesome_ (or something like that) a few years back?). There are certainly more examples of that. However, in the novel we "experience" the formation of only one partnership, that between Snake and Arevin, a pair. There is a short description how it was with Jesse, Meredith and Alex but for me that left out too much. _Because_ it is a very alien concept for me (I mean because of all the ideas of romantic love I carry around with me) I wonder how such a partnership actually comes into existing. How do 2 persons in love decide that they need/tolerate a third person and how do they decide which person should be that? And how does it work then? What rules are developed? And I think there have to be some customs how to react and what to expect in certain cases. The only novel I know describing that (but also only in retrospect and at the point the relationship is falling apart) is _Summer people_ by Marge Piercy (no sf). There are certainly others, but only in a sf or fantasy novel it can be described in a context in which a multiple partnership is not a curiosity. Any thoughts? Petra ** Petra Mayerhofer ** pm@ier.uni-stuttgart.de ** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:52:17 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Subject: [*FSFFU*] long term relationships with more than one partner To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU To me, the most difficult aspect to conceive of with an arrangement of this nature, is the ability of three or more people with mutual comfort zones to find one another. It's hard enough, IMO, to find ONE person with whom one can mostly enjoy a long term relationship, let alone more than one. I have only known two people who I really could see spending more than a year or two with, who I was compatible enough with: my first college room mate and my current husband. And I'm convinced THEY couldn't live together for more than a week. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:05:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "joseph santini: MPG" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] long term relationships with more than one partner To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU of course, the modern incapacity for multiple partner relationships is due to the myriad individual complexities of each person's religion, growth, political standings, feelings of inferiority/superiority, and capacity for affection. were a new world founded, with a group of explorers or founders, the probability that it would be much more cohesive would be higher, since chances are the founders would be of one race and/or religion, if not political standing. that probability could account for multiple-partner relationships and equivalent "comfort zones." Make sense? or am I being nuts again? At 09:52 diem 4/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >To me, the most difficult aspect to conceive of with an arrangement of this >nature, is the ability of three or more people with mutual comfort zones to >find one another. It's hard enough, IMO, to find ONE person with whom one >can mostly enjoy a long term relationship, let alone more than one. I have >only known two people who I really could see spending more than a year or >two with, who I was compatible enough with: my first college room mate and >my current husband. And I'm convinced THEY couldn't live together for more >than a week. > > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Have you no respect for the past? For what was thought and believed by your foremothers?" "Why, no," she said. "Why should we? They are all gone. They knew less than we do. If we are not beyond them, we are unworthy of them--and unworthy of the children who must go beyond us." -Charlotte Gilman, "Herland" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:23:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] long term relationships with more than one partner To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Wow..what a conincidence; I'm in the middle of reading "A Fisherman of the Inland Sea" (LeGuin), and the last story in it outlines a foursome marriage structure that I found fascinating. I don't think I could explain it, but I'd recommend it to anyone interested in the subject; she does a really good job of outlining a complex society in a way that seems very real; the bits about the matchmakers rang very true to me. :) -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [SMTP:mystgalaxy@AX.COM] Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 1:52 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] long term relationships with more than one partner To me, the most difficult aspect to conceive of with an arrangement of this nature, is the ability of three or more people with mutual comfort zones to find one another. It's hard enough, IMO, to find ONE person with whom one can mostly enjoy a long term relationship, let alone more than one. I have only known two people who I really could see spending more than a year or two with, who I was compatible enough with: my first college room mate and my current husband. And I'm convinced THEY couldn't live together for more than a week. Maryelizabeth Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:35:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] long term relationships with more than one partner To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU That makes sense to me; I would think that in a more cohesive, homogenous society, a lot of the really basic things that cause imcompatibility between people wouldn't be issues, so it might make it easier to find groups (as opposed to pairs) that could get along long-term. So, starting from the assumption that single cultures settle a whole planet, it certainly seems more plausible to me. On the other hand, most of our current human cultures have a pretty deep-rooted basis in pairing off, too, so that would have to be dropped somewhere... -Sandy -----Original Message----- From: joseph santini: MPG [SMTP:jsantini@HAVERFORD.EDU] Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 10:06 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] long term relationships with more than one partner of course, the modern incapacity for multiple partner relationships is due to the myriad individual complexities of each person's religion, growth, political standings, feelings of inferiority/superiority, and capacity for affection. were a new world founded, with a group of explorers or founders, the probability that it would be much more cohesive would be higher, since chances are the founders would be of one race and/or religion, if not political standing. that probability could account for multiple-partner relationships and equivalent "comfort zones." Make sense? or am I being nuts again? At 09:52 diem 4/24/98 +0100, you wrote: >To me, the most difficult aspect to conceive of with an arrangement of this >nature, is the ability of three or more people with mutual comfort zones to >find one another. It's hard enough, IMO, to find ONE person with whom one >can mostly enjoy a long term relationship, let alone more than one. I have >only known two people who I really could see spending more than a year or >two with, who I was compatible enough with: my first college room mate and >my current husband. And I'm convinced THEY couldn't live together for more >than a week. > > > >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy 619-268-4747 >3904 Convoy St, #107 800-811-4747 >San Diego, CA 92111 619-268-4775 FAX >http://www.mystgalaxy.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Have you no respect for the past? For what was thought and believed by your foremothers?" "Why, no," she said. "Why should we? They are all gone. They knew less than we do. If we are not beyond them, we are unworthy of them--and unworthy of the children who must go beyond us." -Charlotte Gilman, "Herland" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * joseph santini haverford college '01 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:14:57 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: ME Hunter Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] long term relationships with more than one partner To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I think that one of the things that would need to change in order for a different default relationship structure to emerge would be the expectations that people have for relationships. (I think this needs to happen in real life, since the current longterm default relationship structure in our culture--monogamous heterosexual pairbonding--isn't working for 50% of the pairs that try it and that doesn't begin to look at the people who never get as far as marriage, but that's beside the point.) Writing this is extremely difficult, I think, because the assumptions about what a relationship should provide are fairly deeply ingrained and an author would have to work very hard to make a very different relationship believable to readers. Lots of other aspects (provision for offspring, sexuality comfort, etc.) would have to change as well, I would think, but I believe expectations are the key. E. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:57:40 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Just a few thoughts about _Dreamsnake_: I wonder what the dreamsnake anatomy is like, with three snakes needed to mate, most terrestrial snakes have some kind of "clasper" to keep the bodies in proper alignment, IIRC. I wonder if the Dreamsnakes might have something even more exotic? This might have been a clue for the snake handlers. Also, I remember reading someplace that she got the title, and the idea for the story, from a writer's exercise where you put together random words and try to write a story about them, and she happened to get "Dream" and "Snake." I can't help wondering what would have happened had she picked the words "Dream" and "Hog" instead... it might have gone like this: She awoke in the morning to the smell and sound of frying bacon. "No!" she cried with tears in her eyes, "the dreamhog is harmless, it brings beautiful dreams only." But it was too late... Dan Krashin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:53:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kieth Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] BDG: Dreamsnake To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Now the Dreamsnake discussion is winding down, I wanted to recommend the story on which Dreamsnake was (I think) based: a compact, wonderfully written and beautifully balanced short story named "Of Mist, and Sand, and Grass". One of those like Nightfall, or The Sentinel or Flowers for Algernon - the bare bones of the story stay forever. Kathleen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:49:47 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: AnnyMiddon Subject: [*FSFFU*] BDG--Dreamsnake sexuality To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I never meant it to be this long before posting again on this topic, but real life intervened. (It has a nasty habit of doing that, despite my strictest lectures.) At any rate, I recently reread Dreamsnake in order to be able to more intelligently discuss the book. (Okay, okay -- in order to stop making an ass out of myself in discussing a work I loved but didn't remember too clearly.) It's a measure of the power of Dreamsnake that even though I'd read it only a few months ago, I found myself once again so lost in the novel that I stayed up late the other night to finish it. So back to the continuing discussion of sexual mores in Dreamsnake -- In terms of the number of times a character is propositioned in the book, I count 4 1/2, plus an unlikely but possible occurrence. The unlikely but possible occurrence takes place in chapter seven when it comes out that Ras has been forcing sex on Melissa. Melissa is unconvinced that the consensual sex between Gabriel and Snake wasn't painful for Snake. Snake assures her that it was pleasurable, and offers to show her. My own opinion is that what Snake was offering here was lessons in masturbation, which I wouldn't consider to be an offer of sex, but I suppose others may. The 1/2 occurrence occurs at the very end of the book, when Arevin tells Snake that he wants to take care of her while she heals, and then states that when she's well he wants to ask her if there's "anything else" he can do for her. Snake smiles and says that's a question she wants to ask him, too. The other four occurrences all have the same format -- a relative stranger asks Arevin or Snake if there's "anything" s/he "can do for you." IIRC, it was the phrasing of this offer that bothered Lindy (laorka@meer.net). On rereading the book, I find that it doesn't bother me at all. To me, it seems just a shorthand, euphemistic kind of way to say "I find you attractive and I'd like to have sex with you." Not too much different from yesteryear's "You want to see my etchings" or today's "Hey, Baby, I'll bet you and I could make each other real happy." Or even "Your place or mine?" The difference between Dreamsnake's sex offers and ours (Western culture, anyway) seems to me to be not so much in how it's worded, but when the offer occurs. We expect an offer of sex from anyone besides a prostitute to be preceded by a considerable amount of nonverbal communication. The lingering look, the licking of lips, the touch on the other's hand when making a point, the hot kisses -- all seem to be necessary preludes in our culture before the actual, "Do you want to have sex?" question occurs. If the other doesn't want to have sex, it is usually evident and the question is never asked. Indeed, often the question isn't asked when the answer would be Yes -- the people involved progress from looks and little touches to intercourse without ever actually talking about it, except maybe to ask about protection against pregnancy and disease. The way in which some Dreamsnake cultures handle the situation -- the asking before any sexual activity takes place -- seems to me to be more straightforward. (I do wonder, though, how they handle a situation where one person assents and then changes his/her mind.) Having said that, though, I must point out that while the euphemism "anything I can do" may work well within a culture, it fails miserably in interculture situations. Note that in every one of the four times it is used in the book, it's misinterpreted. Three times Arevin receives the question, and it's only the last that Jean explains it to him and he realizes what was actually being offered. In Mountainside, where the offer is generally used, Gabriel is so used to being sexually off-limits that he forgets that Snake will take his offer as an offer of sex. I wonder then why the offer is phrased that way. The conclusion I've reached (and I fully admit I could be wrong here) is that the phrasing allows a ego- saving rationalization when one's offer is turned down. The offer is made and declined, and both (all?) parties know what was offered and declined, but the person making the offer can pretend that maybe the other didn't really understand -- "It wasn't *me* that was turned down, it's just that I offered sex to someone so ignorant my offer wasn't understood." One other interesting aspect of sexual offers in Dreamsnake -- Arevin (once he understands an offer is being made) turns it down, saying his attention would be elsewhere. Later, thinking on it, he reflects: "He had casually coupled with people in his and neighboring clans all his life, but until he met Snake he had found no one he thought he might be able to partner with. Since meeting her, he had felt no desire for anyone else...." When Snake gets the offer from Gabriel, though, she accepts without much thought -- she finds him gentle and pleasant, and she is lonely. After they have sex, she wishes briefly he was Arevin -- "She wanted someone she could share with, not someone who would be grateful to her." I like this switch. In my culture (US), when a couple first thinks themselves to be in love, it's pretty much expected that the woman will turn down any sexual offers from others, for just the reason that Arevin turns down Jean. The man however may have casual sex with others. It's interesting and refreshing to me to see these sex roles reversed. Anny AnnyMiddon@aol.com