Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:31:01 -0800 From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Intro To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi I'm new to the list. Well, actually I was on this list about a year ago, and am signed on again. The list has been very quiet and I'm wondering why. Is this the list for book discussion-- I've read this month's selection, Briar Rose, but since it's been so quiet I'm wondering if I'm in the right place? Thanks, Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:46:01 -0600 From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Intro: Shaw: BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Holiday season slump? What was your impression of BRIAR ROSE? -----Original Message----- From: Allyson Shaw [mailto:allyshaw@EARTHLINK.NET] Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Intro Hi I'm new to the list. Well, actually I was on this list about a year ago, and am signed on again. The list has been very quiet and I'm wondering why. Is this the list for book discussion-- I've read this month's selection, Briar Rose, but since it's been so quiet I'm wondering if I'm in the right place? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:13:35 -0800 From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Intro: Shaw: BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Holiday season slump? What was your impression of > BRIAR ROSE? I was wondering when discussion on that book would start!?! I was so happy to revisit this book again. The last time I read it was because of watching Prisoners of Gravity on TV Ontario years and years ago. They did a show on fairy tales and another show on queer sci-fi and fantasy lit and this book came up on both episodes. I really miss POG, it was a great show to find out what was worth reading in sci-fi and fantasy. I'd usually watch the show with pen and paper in hand madly scribbling down titles and authors. So now that I work at Space in Toronto and we have all the old POG shows I went back and watched the interviews with Jane Yolen. Yolen says in one interview that she had every intention of making the old man that the granddaughter finds her actual grandfather and then he (the character) said no way Jane I can't be her grad-pappy, I'm gay, so she was forced into researching the fate of queers in the holocaust. I remember reading this book and getting a little education. When I first read it, which was when I was in high school, I didn't even consider the fact that gays and lesbians would have been persecuted too, so it was interesting to find out the different symbols you wore depending on Nazi logic and so on. Odder still when I consider that I organized a pink triangle day event and education booth at my college many years later. Oh how times change :) Yolen also says that the Jewish Community and holocaust groups completely ignored her book, but the queer community welcomed it with open arms and gave it a lot of press. I love this book. It is a real gem. I love fairy tales and taking the story of sleeping beauty and retelling it in a holocaust setting is such a leap of creative genius. . . .I really love this book. I'm glad we had it up for discussion. Any other thoughts? Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:28:32 -0800 From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Behind as usual, I just read this one today... I've always been fond of Jane Yolen, and I liked this one too. For some reason the writing seemed a bit clunky, though it smoothed out when Jack was telling his story; she still manages to draw me in. I'm a big fan of modern retold fairy tales when done properly, and I think this one was. Sleeping Beauty seems to lend itself far more readily to some metaphor of oppression in marriage, say, than to the Holocaust, but Yolen makes the fairy tale echo the camps in a pretty horrific way. I wonder why the Jewish community didn't react to it, especially given that _The Devil's Arithmetic_ got so much more attention. I was reminded a little of Peg Kerr's _Wild Swans_, a retelling of the story of the Seven Swans and at the same time the AIDS epidemic in New York. Jessie >Yolen says in one interview that she had every >intention of making the old man that the granddaughter >finds her actual grandfather and then he (the >character) said no way Jane I can't be her grad-pappy, >I'm gay, so she was forced into researching the fate >of queers in the holocaust. > >I remember reading this book and getting a little >education. When I first read it, which was when I was >in high school, I didn't even consider the fact that >gays and lesbians would have been persecuted too, so >it was interesting to find out the different symbols >you wore depending on Nazi logic and so on. > > > >Yolen also says that the Jewish Community and >holocaust groups completely ignored her book, but the >queer community welcomed it with open arms and gave it >a lot of press. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 21:32:38 -0800 From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I hope you all had pleasant holidays and will recover soon, so the list will be active again. This was a re-read for me. I liked it just as much the second time around. One thing I found interesting is the similarity of the three sisters to the Cinderella tale -- although the wicked stepmother is entirely absent. I loved this blending of different fairy tales in Tepper's Beauty as well as the Yolen Book. I always enjoy learning something new from a book. I am not particularly happy that in this case it is the fact that exposure to poisonous gas leaves a roseate blush on the skin. Other little treasures which I had not particularly noticed the first time around: - the attitude of the priest toward his parishioners, and why he stays - the joy of travel for its own sake, and making a new friend, in the midst of a grim search - the research. Oskar Schindler's name is listed, before Spielberg brought him to the attention of the rest of us. I have to admit, I haven't read any others in this series. Are they available, does anybody know? ---s ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 00:26:32 -0800 From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sharon Anderson wrote: > I have to admit, I haven't read any others in this series. Are they > available, does anybody know? I just checked; According to amazon.com and the Tor web site, it looks like "the nightingale" by Kara Dalkey (which I haven't read) is out of print, and "snow white and rose red" by Patricia Wrede is also out of print, but the rest are still in print ("Tam Lin" by Pamela Dean, "The sun the moon and the stars" by Steven Brust, and "Jack of Kinrowan" by Charles DeLint). "white as snow" by Tanith Lee is supposed to be the next one, not out yet. The short story collections edited by Windling and Datlow are also VERY good ("snow white, blood red", etc.); there will eventually be 6, I'm led to understand the first 5 are available, though I've only actually seen the first 4. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 07:56:53 -0800 From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Behind as usual, I just read this one today...I've always been fond > of Jane Yolen, and I liked this one too. For some reason the writing > seemed a bit clunky, All the bits with the editor at her local newspaper and them getting to know each other better were rather icky and reminded me of the time when I used to read Sweet Valley High books. I found the most engaging part of the tale the bit where the gay survivor recounts his story. The images from that sequence have always stuck with me. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:52:03 -0800 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 5 Jan 2000 to 6 Jan 2000 (#2000-3) To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I finished Briar Rose a few days ago and must say I really enjoyed it. I breezed right through it. >Yolen also says that the Jewish Community and >holocaust groups completely ignored her book, but the >queer community welcomed it with open arms and gave it >a lot of press. It doesn't really surprise me though that the Jewish community has ignored it and the Gay community has embraced it. Speaking strictly from an outsider's perspective (I'm neither Jewish nor Gay) I would say that for Jews there's not much new in this story. That Gemma forgot or denied (to a certain extent) her past and her connection to WWII is something that a lot of people have done. I personally found it interesting that she should dress her experience in a rather harmless fairy tale. It might have been more interesting to Jews had Yolen gone more deeply into Gemma's own feelings in relation to telling her granddaughters this fairy tale over and over. But that would have been another book entirely. The part about gays in the war was if not new at least interesting and fleshed out more that the Jewish aspect. I thought Jewishness played a minor role in this story. Diane Severson Moerfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main (49)69-613371 (49)69-624595 (+Fax and answering machine) -- Join the most exciting community of women on the web! iVillage.com's FREE membership gets you private email, your own home page, special discounts and sweepstakes, and dozens of problem-solving tools. http://www.ivillage.com/frame/join_email.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:31:36 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I've read _Briar Rose_ last weekend but one in one rush, I could not put it down. I had expected something else from the book. From the descriptions I thought it would be a retelling of the fairy tale in the 'magic realism' mode but it is a completely realistic novel. I do not complain, however. This was the first Yolen book I've read. I liked it so much I ordered _The Book of Alta_. Like others on this list I like retellings of fairy tales but _Sleeping Beauty_ never especially appealed to me (there are others which strike closer to home). I have to look up the original Grimm version. By the way, if anybody's interested, Briar Rose is Dornroschen in German (the second o is an Umlaut, the syllables are Dorn-ros-chen). What's remarkable (but not unbelievable) is that in 50 years the daughter never asked her mother any further questions. It's only one of the granddaughters who really wants to know after they've found the box. As somebody already said the love story is a bit too cute and facile (if icky means that) and IMO rather unnecessary for the whole story. I will remember the book for the second part of it (i.e. the story of the old Polish man) but without the first part I probably wouldn't have read it. This part of the story especially got to me because the activities of the resistance group was shown as so futile, so hopeless. Both groups that we are shown end their existence by a risky campaign, their actual goal being to be killed. The only difference is that after what we've followed the activities of the second group for some time we can understand their decision. So far I had only heard stories about the French resistance which is usually presented in a very different light, e.g. in Marge Piercy's _Gone to Soldiers_. I was a bit surprised about how the hierarchy of jews and gays in the concentration camp was presented because so far I've thought it the opposite. 20 years ago I've seen a play (_Bent_) about gays in Nazi Germany who are deported to concentration camps. An important aspect of the plot was that gays were treated worse than jews in the camp (I don't think that I remember it wrong because of what one of the gay man did to get a yellow triangle instead of a pink one). According to the background information distributed at that time judicial rulings of Nazi courts against gays were not cancelled after the war because they were not seen as unlawful and gay survivors of concentration camp were not recompensed. As I assume that Jane Yolen has carried out research on this I wonder now what's true (perhaps both in different circumstances). Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 19:52:55 -0800 From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Petra M. wrote: >>What's remarkable (but not unbelievable) is that in 50 years the daughter never asked her mother any further questions. It's only one of the granddaughters who really wants to know after they've found the box.<< I am not Jewish, nor do I have any Jewish friends I feel close enough to ask, so what I am about to say may be all wet. But from everything I've ever heard on holocaust documentaries, etc., in real life, the survivors usually actively discouraged their children from asking any questions, laying a heavy guilt trip on the kids so that they didn't even WANT to think about asking. Yes? NO? This is a good question, and I'd really like to know the answer. ---s ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:43:57 -0500 From: Danamarie Hough Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU First off, I'm new here and just wanted to say hello. I have been a feminist for most of my life and am just starting to get into SF/Fantasy, so I thought I'd like it here. Unfortunately, I have not read *Briar Rose* (although I plan to now), so I can't speak directly about the book. However, although I am by no means an expert, I have done some work with the Holocaust and wanted to address Sharon's comment regarding the silence surrounding it. Your guess is right on from what I've studied, but the guilt goes even deeper. According to Art Spiegelman, author of *Maus* and (obviously) child of a survivor (COS), his father was plagued with angst over having survived. A former shoemaker, he'd repaired shoes for German soldiers--how many more people were killed because a Nazi had a good pair of shoes? He was a frail man and probably would not have lived had he not had a skill--should he have lived? Other survivors have similar stories: they were women who lived in the 'puffs' (free brothels for German soldiers located on camp premises), or children who ran messages. And when they truly hadn't done anything but manual labor, survivors had even more difficulty coming to grips with their lives, because there was no single event or action to explain it. They worried that they had worked too well, gotten a slightly larger chunk of bread, or a more nourishing bit of broth. In any case, the guilt starts with surviving and turns to anger and hostility toward the next generation. Not only is all talk of "the events" suddenly taboo, but now the very natural selfishness of childhood becomes a platform to rant about how easy the new generation has it. It's not a pretty picture, and most COSes will admit to very strained, uncommunicative relationships with their parents. Sorry to make such a long first post, but I hope this helps to clarify aspects of the novel. It sounds like you're all really enjoying it and I can't wait to join you for the next one. -D ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:11:59 -0800 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] FEMINISTSF-LIT Digest - 15 Jan 2000 to 17 Jan 2000 (#2000-11) To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Petra M. wrote: >I was a bit surprised about how the hierarchy of jews and gays in >the concentration camp was presented because so far I've thought >it the opposite. I really have no authority on this subject matter at all. I imagine that treatment in a concentration camp was pretty horrible for anyone regardless of why you were there. It is possible that certain people hated gays more than Jews and treated them accordingly and vice versa. It's probably a matter of circumstance and perspective. Sharon Anderson wrote: >But from everything I've ever >heard on holocaust documentaries, etc., in real life, the survivors usually >actively discouraged their children from asking any questions... I think that Yolen made this pretty clear in the book that this was the case. None of the granddaughters really asked about her past while she was alive either. Diane --- Diane Severson Moerfelder Landstr. 108 60598 Frankfurt am Main (49)69-613371 (49)69-624595 (+Fax and answering machine) -- Join the most exciting community of women on the web! iVillage.com's FREE membership gets you private email, your own home page, special discounts and sweepstakes, and dozens of problem-solving tools. http://www.ivillage.com/frame/join_email.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:43:38 -0800 From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > I have to look up the original Grimm version. > By the way, if anybody's interested, Briar Rose is > Dornroschen in German (the second o is an Umlaut, > the syllables are Dorn-ros-chen). In the original version of the tale Sleeping Beauty is not awakened by a kiss but rather by the birth of twins after the Prince who got through the dangers of the castle impregnates her. > I will remember the book for the second part of it (i.e. > the story of the old Polish man) but without the first > part I probably wouldn't have read it. I hadn't read Briar Rose in a number of years and I had completely forgotten all the parts leading up to meeting the gay holocaust survivor. I only remembered his tale. It was the part that stuck with me and really it is a story within a story in the novel. The tone and pacing of his entire retelling is very different from the rest of the book. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:41:20 -0800 From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sorry about that empty message-- hit the send button too soon! I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments on Briar Rose, and I'm looking forward to being introduced to new books like this one, books I probably wouldn't read on my own. I agree with others about the love story being too facile, but I thought that wooden quality also spilled into the book as a whole, with the interjections of the fairy tale being somewhat predictable until the end where the true subject and heart of the novel is introduced-- the gay resistance fighter's narrative. It's a powerful attempt at creating specific vision of the holocaust, which can so easily turn to cliché. Yolen avoids this, yet that section is overwritten in parts-- similes and metaphors like "a devil's rainbow", etc. tip the scales towards sentimentality, which must be avoided always, but especially where the holocaust is concerned. I'm sorry to be so hard on the book, I was glad to be introduced to it and would be interested in hearing about the other books in the Fairy Tale series. --Allyson Lyla Miklos wrote: >> Behind as usual, I just read this one today...I've always been fond >> of Jane Yolen, and I liked this one too. For some reason the writing >> seemed a bit clunky, > >All the bits with the editor at her local newspaper and >them getting to know each other better were rather icky >and reminded me of the time when I used to read Sweet >Valley High books. > >I found the most engaging part of the tale the bit >where the gay survivor recounts his story. The images >from that sequence have always stuck with me. > > Lyla ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:15:34 -0800 From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >I'm sorry to be so hard on the book, I was glad to be introduced to it >and would be interested in hearing about the other books in the Fairy >Tale series. I've been thinking a lot lately about why this book seems so flawed in its telling, when I'm so fond of many of her other books. I think the key is that Jane Yolen really is a fabulous fairy tale teller, and when she moves into more modern styles something is lost. I think she changes the language and makes it a little less formal, and loses something in the doing. I haven't read anything else by her in quite a while, though, so I'd be interested in hearing from people who've read Briar Rose and one of her fantasy novels recently. I've read several of the other Fairy Tale books. Mostly they're more fantastical. I believe that Stephen Brust's _The Sun, the Moon and the Stars_ uses the same fairy-tale-as-framing device, but I read it something like ten years ago. I remember liking it at the time. Patricia Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_ is a retelling of the story set in Elizabethan England, also not a recent read. Pamela Dean's _Tam Lin_ is a favorite of mine; it's set in a college in the 70s. There's not a lot of explicit magic, but if you know the story of Tam Lin you can see a lot of it peeking through. My second time through it seemed obvious. I haven't read any of the others. Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:07:07 -0600 From: Liz Bennefeld Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I also enjoyed Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_, but the first Fairy Tale book I read was Pamela Dean's Tam Lin. I've reread that one several times, now; no other book has really been equal to it. Liz On 18 Jan 00, at 11:15, Jessie Stickgold-Sarah wrote: >> I've read several of the other Fairy Tale books. Mostly they're more fantastical. I believe that Stephen Brust's _The Sun, the Moon and the Stars_ uses the same fairy-tale-as-framing device, but I read it something like ten years ago. I remember liking it at the time. Patricia Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_ is a retelling of the story set in Elizabethan England, also not a recent read. Pamela Dean's _Tam Lin_ is a favorite of mine; it's set in a college in the 70s. There's not a lot of explicit magic, but if you know the story of Tam Lin you can see a lot of it peeking through. My second time through it seemed obvious. I haven't read any of the others. << -- Elizabeth W. Bennefeld Managing Editor, Dark Star Publications http://www.darkstarpublications.com Freelance Writer/Editor d.b.a. The Written Word http://home.att.net/~thewrittenword/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:23:48 -0800 From: Lyla Miklos Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG BRIAR ROSE To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I have greatly enjoyed the anthologies put out by Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow. They contain retellings of classic fairy tales by famous sci-fi and fantasy writers. Right now I am enjoying Angela Carter's "The Bloody Chamber". Her stuff is very very dark. Lyla __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:24:27 +1000 From: Nike Organization: Griffith University Subject: [*FSF-L*] not really Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I've been trying to get hold of some of these books for a while. I have Kara Dalkey's The Nightingale, which I really enjoyed, as did my teenage daughter, who is intrigued by all things Japanese. I haven't finished Briar Rose yet, but I do agree w/ below - it's not as strong as her more strictly fantastical work - a little falsely didactic? I get the feeling its reaching a little too hard to make an important point, sometimes at the cost of a good story. Nike > I've been thinking a lot lately about why this book seems so flawed > in its telling, when I'm so fond of many of her other books. I think > the key is that Jane Yolen really is a fabulous fairy tale teller, > and when she moves into more modern styles something is lost. I > think she changes the language and makes it a little less formal, > and loses something in the doing. I haven't read anything else by > her in quite a while, though, so I'd be interested in hearing from > people who've read Briar Rose and one of her fantasy novels > recently. > > I've read several of the other Fairy Tale books. Mostly they're more > fantastical. I believe that Stephen Brust's _The Sun, the Moon and > the Stars_ uses the same fairy-tale-as-framing device, but I read it > something like ten years ago. I remember liking it at the time. > Patricia Wrede's _Snow White, Rose Red_ is a retelling of the story > set in Elizabethan England, also not a recent read. Pamela Dean's > _Tam Lin_ is a favorite of mine; it's set in a college in the 70s. > There's not a lot of explicit magic, but if you know the story of > Tam Lin you can see a lot of it peeking through. My second time > through it seemed obvious. I haven't read any of the others. > > Jessie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:00:26 -0600 From: Susan Hericks Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Briar Rose To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I finally had a chance to read Briar Rose and must say I generally agree with most of the opinions expressed in the discussions so far, especially that the writing seemed a bit clunky, the romance contrived, and Josef's retelling of his Holocaust experience the most engaging and memorable part of the book. I actually really enjoyed the character Magda and felt like I hadn't before been given the chance to think about what it's like for the next generation in Poland, Germany, etc. If the survivor's refusal to discuss what happened is the norm in the US (according to what has been said in the discussion), how much worse it must be to live right where these atrocities happened and not able to talk about it--or even to be aware of it, which seems like a truly maddening silence and erasure of memory. Along those lines, I was really struck by the scene where Becca and Magda visit the town where the extermination camp was and the locals threaten them with the same "nothing" that happened to all the other Jews who came there. The whole question justice seems horrifying and impossible in the face of such hate, especially when you later read the details of what happened there. The priest is an interesting figure. I was grateful that Yolen portrayed his honesty about not being able to forgive the townspeople for what they did. I think I would've been happier with the ending of the book if Yolen held on a little more to this question of how the Holocaust still effects the survivors and their families beyond the optimism that ultimately seems to gloss Gemma's "happily ever after." Despite assurances that there is not always a happy ending, that's what I felt like we got. Is it enough that Gemma survived and had a loving family in the US? Will Becca be like Stan, just getting the story and then moving on? It seems like more is called for. Susan