FIRST OF ALL
Phew, about darn time...
Thought I’d never get to creating this silly little page.
Why did it take so long?
The world cup championship made me fall in love with football (soccer).
Work got the best of me. Work, sleep, work, sleep... (occasionally eating)
My hard drive crashed, leaving me (and my web site in shambles).
But here I am, as good a used automobile.
This is my “Reader’s Response” page.
Although I believe every person who sent me these responses have given me permission to put them in this list, I may have accidentally included someone who wouldn’t want his/her comments to appear in public. I also try my best to hide any names which may reveal personal information, although many have given me permission to include their names also. If some of you find anything which you’d rather not letting anyone but me see, let me know, I’ll remove whatever you like.
I would also like to comment that I may have changed some of the words you may have used. I did that because my spell checker informed me of errors. So instead of displaying honest mistakes someone might have made (a thing which happens to me every nau and den...), I present them in a more agreeable manner. If you’d like the originality of you mails retained, let me know.
A WORD BEFORE GETTING DOWN TO BUSINESS
I’d first like to start by saying I was overwhelmed by the relatively positive responses. I was afraid of being flamed to death by zealots. Let’s hope I won’t. I also found how remarkably people confide in me, a person who is a total stranger, to reveal their weaknesses, fears and problems. I salute you all. I don’t believe I would have found the same courage.
NOW TO THE RESPONSES
Let’s start by the people who seek information of help. This page may be used as a bulletin board for people who would like to answer these questions, or offer some help. My own powers are limited, so the more varied the comments, the better.
hi,
I would like to know more about the forum...did you do it
yourself...what did you think after it...
I'm doing the next one in T.A so I’m very interested of hearing anything you
would like to tell... a friend of mine told me about it...he said it is great....
thx,
Alex.
Alex is actually a person I’ve met personally afterwards. I made a short interview with him about the Forum which he attended after sending this Email. Albeit short, I gave me a better perspective on the Forum, since I gathered he didn't lose his mind going through it. He also didn't show interest in continuing the courses, although he recognized the benefits he received from it. I appreciate that. He went to the Forum, got what he wanted (hopefully) and rejected the ugly. That's getting your money's worth.
I signed up for the Forum and paid the deposit before learning about their brainwashing and sleep-deprivation techniques. I want to cancel but have been told that I cannot get my deposit back (It was charged on a credit card). Are there any success stories about people getting full refunds?
Poor fellow, I hope the refund came. If not, can any Landmark savvy explain the company's policy on this issue?
My boyfriend of over a year and a half has taken the "beginning" Landmark course, and is now enrolled in the "advanced" course. I really do think that he is being brainwashed, and is definitely NOT the same person that I have known for so long. When I try to talk to him, all he does is tell me that I don't understand, or feeds me some meaningless mumbo-jumbo, or tells me that, and I quote, "life is empty and meaningless." I am so scared of losing the person that I love, and I have no clue what to do about it. If you have any suggestions, or know someone I could possibly talk to, I would appreciate the input.
Thanks.
E.
This seems to be mainly a job for a pro. I'm not sure the Forum introduced him to the
x-generation...
What IS possible, that the Forum increased his to that point hidden feelings. Saying
"life is meaningless" is a Forum jargon, which relates to prejudgement. It means
"don't judge people/life because of the past" (hope I got it right. Anybody
disagrees?). I actually agree with this statement. As far as I see it, here is no
"grand plan" to life. We live, we die. We do a few things in between. End of
story. "Empty", however, is new, perhaps alarming, concept.
Hi,
I read your Think About It, The Landmark Forum. Well done and I share the same concerns. I'm presently dealing with a sibling who's become a Forum zealot. You touched on my concerns which include isolation through alienation, and what happens when there's no more money for courses. Maybe they'll become an instructor!
I have question and a comment.
The question: In forum10.htm Summary item 3. you end the paragraph with "you lose your mind and sue them..." Do you know of any cases?
Yes I have read about such cases. I believe you'll find interesting cases here, as
well. Check out
http://www.rickross.com/reference/Art74.html
http://www.inlink.com/~dhchase/robhow.htm
http://www.inlink.com/~dhchase/forsyk.htm
Also, read the next post.
The comment: Your article stands on "common sense" ground with me still would like to see some qualifying background information on the author that gives context and/or lends support to the opinions.
I wish I could wave a "Forum Degree" in front of you. But I'm
wrote this subjective article because I felt like doing so. Now who's gonna stop me? I
think the best way of telling how close I was is by reading the responses I got.
I was surprised to see how close I was. There is no absolute "truth" in these
matters, since the Forum concepts are quite vague, and so is the impression people get.
I attended the Landmark Forum in August of 1996 on the strong advice of a former friend. Though the initial effect was highly positive, I became delusional and paranoid and needed psychiatric hospitalization.
I then received outpatient care, but was absent from work for the next six months until my condition stabilized. I was not completely free of regular delusional episodes until about six months ago and I still have some pretty strange thoughts every now and then. I had no history of delusions prior to the Forum.
Taken face value, this is an answer to anyone who thinks there are no risks.
I was curious to know why you have taken so much time analysing the Forum, how the brainwashing works - in your opinion - etc.
Have you done the Forum or is this your analysis of the enrollment business?
K.
who are you? what has been your connection to The Forum? do you know anything about the Relationship class?
Yikes. Keep that light away from my face, detective...
...who are the brain police?...
I swear boss, I never told nuthin', honest to God. W-w-why are you pointing your gun at
me, boss?
No, no, noooo...
Ok, back to life, back to reality:
My X-boyfriend, love of my life, took the class and then went on the take the relationship class. It changed him. He did the hinting to me about the class. Or discussed friends who he had found out had taken the class.(I heard the line about not telling me about it so as to not take away the majic - I called that one immediately as "them" training graduates to try to sell on curiosity. ) He mentioned seeing and old friend and finding out that his spouse took the forum. He kept mentioning a girl (he had met at the forum) who had been calling him with boyfriend breakup problems. This after he had only know her about a month. I said why is she calling you? And of course it was because of "The Forum". I finally allowed that I felt like he wanted a partner who had taken the forum.
Then I went on to say that choosing to take the forum is very personal and that it should be done for oneself and that I had no intentions of taking it. We broke up a week later. He had become too busy with activities in his life and no longer had time for me. He didn't have it in his heart anymore.
And I ask, is it the Forum? Do I have any way to shake him out of this madness before it is too late? Do you have the words or examples or anything that can help me help him?
Hey...
I just finished reading through some of the stuff on your website. Thanks for putting it out there. Two friends of mine from Britain were visiting me last week and mentioned the forum to me. A lot of the things they described reminded me of my experiences at Montreat, a national Presbyterian church conference held each summer in North Carolina. Their description of the forum and their current outlook in life really intrigued me, so I set out to find some info on this "forum".
While my friends were visiting, we were channel surfing one night when we came across this info-mercial for a life-enhancing hypnotic video tape series that would help you change your life and succeed in your goals just by listening to it. I made a couple of comments on the subject, being somewhat familiar with hypnosis and hypnotic suggestion.
I began recounting this story of a friend of my family who had attended one of those evangellical t.v. preacher shows where they make people pass out just by touching them. My friend was actually one of the people choosen to be "touched" by the hand of God. While maintaining his resolute skepticism, he was bewildered to find himself collapsing at the touch of the "preacher's" hand. In telling my two british friends this story, I relayed my opinion that these religious gatherings were somehow hypnotically-controlled, although personally I have no evidence to back this up.
One of the guys who had been to the forum was very disturbed by our conversation. He really got upset and surprisingly angry at the notion that group "hypnosis" or something along those lines might have influenced his forum experience. I had nothing to tell him since I've never been and really am not an expert in the field. But later when, on my own, I considered seeing what the forum was all about, I was curious to see what info was out there on the forum.
I've heard the skeptics and the proponents. I guess you could say that Landmark has "got me" in the sense that I want to see for myself what all the hubub is about. I'm the perfect candidate for them as a dreamer and idealist who is kind of in a downswing at the moment. But all that I've read makes me a little scared. Is there any advice you could offer? Were your experiences positive, despite your opinions presented in your website? And exactly how much doesthis thing cost?!?!?!?
Thanks so much for your time,
Jennie
The last question is easiest, I think it's even answered in full detal in Landmark's own site. The price is in the 300$
range for the basic course, "The Forum". Regarding my experiences, read the disclaimer below.
Regarding "hypnosis", I'd say "suggestion" is a better term.
Evangelism and Landmark have many things is common and they're not casual.The angry
response to "hypnosis" is a regular reaction of a zealot. A zealot thinks that
these terms can't be true because:
1. Facing such a claim as truth will ruin the positive effect the zealot had.
2. No one is allowed to make such claims, because it only means one of two:
a) The person didn't participate, so that person cannot make judgement.
b) The person participated, but didn't "get it".
I find your criticism of the Forum to be complete and poignant, the feeling I get from your writing is that you did the Forum and maybe the First Seminar and got pissed off.
I'm a grad of the Forum -Advanced-and Self expression Leadership and IFLP (leadership program) the core of landmark's programs and stopped participating because of my resentment of the recruiting drives.
You definitely pinned down the various techniques used to induce "Forum-based Enlightenment". They are truly an amalgam of techniques that produce results.
However, just as one can never get the taste of a fine recipe from just a couple of its ingredients, one needs to look at the whole shebang from a mystical perspective. In my participation, I reached an extreme high-level what I call "Enlightenment", Which surpassed reason and critical thinking and allowed me to experience reality with its cover removed. In this rarefied air ,the Forum really works.
My brother did the forum and came away with much less, although he will not admit it (He's a tough ass, Hypercritical thinker) allowed him to turn around and face ,his mortal enemy-our father, and embrace him, and admit his basic love for him.
Since then, he and I have become fast friends(which we were not) how can a system that produced such a powerful result in our lives be simply a money and mind control machine!-(which you imply in your dissertation) I have been away from the Forum for five years, nobody has hassled me to rejoin. I ran into some old Forumheads and we discussed our backsliding, the long and short term benefits, the amazing high points, and we all agreed that we would all do it all over again and even pay three times the price!
I miss my reality being challenged, and I am now considering re-participating as I am fully cognizant of the new level of "breakthroughs "possible to me now. As for the recruiting, I see that only if I go out on a limb and motivate others to participate in the forum, I can just as easily invite others to participate in my life-advancing projects !
I must acknowledge that your tone tapers off the blunt criticality towards the end, so i'm sure some of the benefits did, in fact ,stick.
Did you take the Advanced Forum? If not ,why don't you? Its the true heart of the work. Take it from me a ex-insider!
Anyway, Take Care and thanks for your sharp insight, which is why I'm going to re-participate.
I haven't put these last posts together coincidentally.
When I started getting these mails, they puzzled me. I was thinking to myself "what
do you mean 'what has been your connection the Forum'? I mean, didn't I make myself clear
in this matter?". So I returned to my article and discovered that I accidentally
(honestly) didn't mention anything about participating or otherwise in Landmark
activities. So people got a certain impression about me. I wasn't sure how important that
was, until a friend of mine told me it was unethical not telling you,
because:
I NEVER EVER PARTICIPATED IN ANY LANDMARK ACTIVITY, BESIDE 2 RECRUITING EVENINGS!
Now, I didn't neglect it on purpose, it slipped away during my rush of writing.
Does that bother any of you? I need to know.
However, one benefit came to me because of this. I am clearly on the right path to
understanding the Forum. It serves as a demystification. I’m proving that the Forum
is nothing beyond laymen’s grasp. I’m “getting it”.
I believe my page is far from being complete, and I’ll revise it and improve as long
as I feel like it. And I’ll give a special attention to this subject in the near
future. Just as long as I finish this crappy page of mine.
It is true I'm attacking the the Forum mainly (at least that's hope some people feel) from
its weaker side, the enrollment business. But that's only one aspect and definitely the
easier negative to attack. I hope to strengthen other aspects as well.
Notice one very important thing. Some of the people decide to take the Forum after reading
my article (like that last post) while others reject it BECAUSE OF THE VERY SAME WORDS. I
mean, how can I be more objective? It shows to prove that my words only influence people
to take the path they have already considered. Why, I am a one-man Forum! In remote
control!!
Now to the point of "why not join", this is not the place to talk about me. I promise to deliver an excellent answer in the, you got it, NEAR FUTURE...
just finished the "forum" wasn't real sure what I was missing, I guess I got something out of it but the oversell was a real turn off.
My name is Brian, I did the Forum this past weekend and found most if not all of it to be a sales promotion. I was absolutely disgusted to watch the shamless use of desperate people to foster the finacial interest of a few dogs. No kidding. These guys are the worst that humanity has to offer. Having said that i find it sad that there seems to be some very intreging information that may help some folks. I myself found that an enduring anger, pervasive in my life since childhood caused alot of pain for me and those around me. But guess what, I already knew that, I just didn't want to deal with it. I brought my wife to the Tuesday night seminar(last night) to "finish my Forum." What a crock of shit. I was ashamed of myself for being taken in by these ***holes. I don't know who is worse, the leaders or the sheep(like me) who follow them. My wife was brought to a separate room and subjected to the hard sell for 2 hours while I was continually pushed to "register for the advanced course. Man, I might have fallen off the turnip truck but I owned that sucker. My wife broke down after 1 1/2 hours and "registered" we put a stop payment on the check today. I am mad. Is there anything I can do to help others avoid this trap. By the way, I am not sure my e-mail is getting to me because I just changed ISP's so if this message comes back to you please send me a letter through the regular mail. Let me know what I can do. These guys suckered me and I don't like it.
Is it just me or did Brian not like the Forum?...
My name is K., of Tx. I've written a rather lengthy message, sorry about the wordiness. Haven't learned ``powerful communication'' yet, I guess. ... :)
I've been reading with great interest all the critical thinking about the forum, which I did a few months ago. I'm doing the advanced course in a month out of curiosity mostly, and because I thought the forum was fun. I'm keeping tabs on the criticism, the experiences of graduates - positives and negatives - in order to keep my perspective (I'm a newspaper reporter, and so inclined to be critical anyway).
Anyway, I've been to about four of the forum-in-action series sessions, and I've refused to bring any guests. I don't appreciate being used as a marketing tool, and I know they don't do much, if any, paid advertising so I realize how much they need me. The only guest I've brought was my boyfriend on the Tuesday night after the weekend, basically because I wanted him to meet the forum leader, who I thought was way cool, and the friends I had made, and see what the heck I had done all weekend. The b-frie's quite the philosopher and was interested in a lot of the things that were said - although he remains skeptical and a little suspicious of the whole thing, which doesn't surprise or bother me. I haven't asked him since, and only talk about it when he brings it up, which is rare.
I've also refrained from singing the praises of the forum to everyone I see, although I do notice that when I mention ``a conference type thing I've been doing,'' completely out of context, people invariably ask for the details. I tell them its a personal empowerment training type thing, and I just try to leave it at that, and then they keep pressing. I'm uncomfortable with pushing it on people because I never, ever become a follower or a recruiter (enroller, as the LEC people would say) in something I know so little about. I don't like being a mouthpiece for anyone. I never bring it up with the idea of getting them to go with me. I might invite them to an intro by a forum leader, however, because I don't regret my experience and I wouldn't purposely KEEP someone from making that choice. I had a blast, am glad my friend introduced me to it, and would do it again. But I haven't done that so far, either.
All this is to let you know where I'm coming from and that I agree with a lot of what your posting said. One of the things that bothers me about it, though, is your repeated contention that participants are told not to reveal what happens in there. Where does that come from? The only non-disclosure I signed was not to tell any of the participants friends', relatives, employers, etc. what they personally confessed to in there. When I asked, I was told straight out by the staff that I could tell anyone whatever I wanted to about the other stuff, the rackets and exercises and winning formulas, etc. No deep dark secrets, and no feeling that I would be lynched if I recounted every philosophical idea that went on in there. Also, they DO ask you to take notes in the advanced course, so where did the no-note taking statement come from? As I recall, that's inaccurate as well. Inaccuracies undermine credibility, as my job teaches me - people who have taken the forum and were NOT told not to talk about that stuff may not believe the rest of your posting based on that kind of thing.
I stand corrected. Thank you. However, I do
insist on the not-taking notes part in the Forum ITSELF, not any other course. Perhaps
there are variations on it, but I have read an evidence in this matter.
Moreover, perhaps it was a personal interpretation of an extreme enthusiast (ZEALOT,
goddammit), but a good friend of mine told me that he couldn't tell me ANYTHING because he
signed such a contract! I will deal with this in my future writing.
That said, just about everything else I read in your posting I recognized and agreed with, in some way or another. I especially agreed with your warning to venerate the positive outcomes of the forum, not the forum itself, as the zealots are inclined to do.
And I take your ``protections'' list under advisement - like, don't talk nonstop about the forum because you'll push people away. Got it. (grin).
Thanks for your time, and I look forward to your reply.
K.
Indeed, without hesitation I answered.
Hey, thanks for the response!
I don't have a problem with you using my post, so long as it's personal and I'm not connected with my job at the ****, know what I mean? I can't represent the newspaper in my own personal views.
I actually did take the Forum in April. I haven't taken the advanced course yet, that's happening next month. They do say you can take notes in advanced, but it was the forum i meant when I said nobody told me I couldn't say anything about what went on inside.
I also did have a great time at the forum, even though at times it was exhausting, frustrating, you name it. I've made some good friends in there, so you know. Take what works, toss out what doesn't.
K.
Good idea, and good for you, K.
As an ex-est graduate( I upchucked it after 2 weeks) I am shocked that the organization still exists in another form. I thought est fell to pieces after Werner fled the country and the Hunger Project is the only remnant of it left. I will be more aware.
Well, GOOD MORNING TO YOU! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!
I have read your article with a lot of interest and concern because I was almost hooked into the Forum. I have written an article for our leading newspaper pointing out the history and some of the evils of the Forum and I have asked them to interview some of the Forum graduates about what they experienced so that we can get this matter into the public arena and caution those who are quietly being snared. I understand that Landmark people have also been having seminars in Zimbabwe and South Africa and I woudl like to send a copy of the article to the leading magazines in these countries for awarness.
I would appreciate permission to quote extnesively from your articles and also any other more current information and analyses on the Forum.
Thankyou,
Peter
His permission was granted. So will be yours, if you ask nicely...
;-)
i just read your "landmark forum" article on the rants and raves web page and i wanted to let you know how much i appreciated it. one of my best friends did the forum about a year ago, and she has continued with their leadership seminar, et al. she has begun proselytizing me, telling me she "knows" i am not happy, and that i "need" to make a change in my life, and so on.
here is a piece of a recent email she sent me:
>I don't agree that you know what's the best for you. If you look
> at any olympic athlete, they've got a coach... they're the best
> damn athlete in the world, but they've got someone there who can
> see their blind spots, see what they can't see. They're nothing
> without a coach. That coach may be a dictator. That coach may
>be the best damn "fan" that athlete has, and they just want to
>see them do their best. That athlete gets to be the best THEY can
>be, unlike any other. They get to call out and heighten their
>unique qualities and talents. This is what I'm talking about
>Susan. This is why I say anything.
i imagine the "coach" she is talking about is forum, ja?
this sounds like a bunch of garbage to me. your article gave me some ideas of how to deal
with her in the future. interestingly, i have been using my inherent reason and a lot of
common sense to pose arguments and questions to her.
have i lost my friend? i hope not, but if she will persist in this fixation, i will have to say good bye to her.
thanks again for an enlightening and entertaining read.
susan
Ze Fuhrer is most pleazed for ze complimentz, Zuzan. It is a bunch of crap not because there's no truth in it, but because it's exactly worth the amount of time needed to learn this example, what, a few minues? The coach IS the best person to train you to whatever YOU FEEL LIKE DOING! The coach should not force you to go through phases you disapprove of. And definitely it's not the coache's business to make the athlete happier, just more athletic.
I really enjoyed your essay about Landmark Education's Forum. I have all but lost my best friend to Landmark (and her husband!). Before they were married, I tried very hard to get her to think about what she was doing. He is an extremely paranoid and jealous individual but claims to have identified his "racket" and changed his ways! They have been involved in Landmark for about 2 years now. She and I don't talk about it (when we do actually talk) because I think she finally got the message that I am not interested. However, it is such a big part of her life, that she does make passing references to it.
From what I gather, they have participated in at least 4 "courses" since the Forum.
When they attended the Forum, she called me that Sunday. The year before that had been a very difficult one for me and I guess she felt that she hadn't been there (I never questioned her care or concern for me). Anyhow, she called from the Forum to tell me how much I meant to her and apologize for not being there for me. She told me what a WONDERFUL person I am (not that we didn't love each other, but we had never talked that way) and then began to cry. I had never heard of the Forum so I figured that this thing must be pretty intense! She put her boyfriend on the phone and he continued the schpeal (sp?). They asked me to come to the follow-up meeting because it would mean so much to them. Of course I would go!
I went to the follow-up meeting and left early! It did not appeal to me at all! I knew something was up when I got there (as support for them) and my friend ran down the list of people that she had asked to come!! I thought I was so special...I was, however, the only idiot to go!
The months that followed (leading up to her wedding) were full of invitations to "social" gatherings (usually full of other participants)and lots of sales pitches (mostly form her significant other!). I was to be the Maid of Honor in her wedding, so I was starting to feel like it needed to be addressed. I didn't know how to bring it up so I called her mother. It really didn't go as I planned! She loved the boyfriend and didn't know much about Landmark. I figured I really needed to talk directly to my friend. I went out with them for a couple drinks and only understood about half the conversation (all the jargon went over my head). I did learn that she had given herself a new name...PIP: Power Inspiration and Passion!! She told me stories of how she was sharing her experiences with people at work (she manages a brain injury program at a vocational rehabilitation center) and they all started to cry and hug each other!!! Am I the nut because I'm not a part of this? She and I left and I knew that this was the time! I had to tell her how I was really concerned about her marrying this person and about the Forum. I was a nervous wreck! I told her everything and she thanked me for my conern and sharing my feelings, etc.... She said she would have to share this with her boyfriend and that he would probably want to talk to me. Oh boy!
I didn't hear from him or see him until several weeks later. Our group of friends went out and they met us at the bar. We all got pretty drunk and went back to a friend's house. One thing led to another, and I found myself in a screaming match with her boyfriend! It was awful. They left with her telling us she was sorry..."I love you guys, but I love him too!" The next morning he called me and apologized. He "acknowledged" me for being her friend and talking openly with him the night before. He realizes now that he cannot drink, yadda, yadda, yadda! My friend came over 15 minutes later and we went shopping for wedding dresses?!?!? Reality????
I offered to back out of the wedding or at least not be the maid of honor, but she just asked that I support her in her decision. I told her that I will always support her whether or not I agree.
They have now been married for one year! Her husband has quit his job
(he was teaching- without certification, of course) and is:
1. working from home making phone calls for his brother (?)
2. trying to start an internet business
3. thinking about becoming an electrician's apprentice
4. thinking about waiting tables and
5. applying for jobs (like "talent scout") from the classified. He is ready to
have children as soon as possible! They just bought a second car (he didn't have one) and
a house!
It makes me so sad when I think about the friend that I used to have and the position that she is now in. Is she happy? About three months before they did the first Forum, her boyfriend broke up with her because he just couldn't trust her. We went out to dinner and to talk..." What do I tell my parents? What do I say to people at work when I don't have the ring on?" He didn't leave (I think he had no intentions of leaving), they went to couples therapy for three months...then found Landmark! The rest, you now know!
Wow! I haven't talked, or even thought about all this in a while. It consumed me for about a year until it was jeopardizing my relationship and other friendships. I try to keep in touch with her without promising any social events (my boyfriend has no use for her husband and little for her at this point!). If we can see each other one-on-one it's okay. I'm sorry that I made this such a long letter! I guess I needed to vent! Thank you for
listening ( I assume that you did!!!)
Sincerely,
P.P.
The main problem mentioned in this post has very little to do with the Forum directly,
unless I'm WAY wrong. P. has a problem with her friend's loser of a husband, and this
happens all the time.
Doe's anyone feel differently?
Hi,
My name is Tony and I stumbled across your web page through a search, and boy, was I glad to find it. It put all of my own thoughts into words that I couldn't find about my own experience about the Forum. I actually didn't go to the Forum itself; I did go to the free introduction; but I'm actually writing to you about my girlfriend, Ann, who's is going to participate in the full Forum lecture, you know, the one for $300.00. Her friend, Maude, a graduate paid for it, because she knew that we can't afford it at all. Let me first tell you how it all started. Like your site states: "friends will drag you there," and one did!! My first impression was a pyramid scheme: Bring someone, then they'll bring someone, then they'll bring someone..... you know to make money.
It looks to me as much worse than a pyramid scheme. In a pyramid, you ALWAYS have a POTENTIAL chance of making money. In this case, you only have the potential of making money for others.
I went to the intro in Los Angeles CA some time ago with my girlfriends best friend Maude. Maude mentioned it to me because at the time I was out of work due to an injury. So to get out of the house I went, and that was my excuse to go. She was so certain that the experience would change my way of life, and hearing that, I started to have doubts...good ones to find out about later at the meeting. When we arrived, of course she knew everyone there, I got a name tag and sat towards the front of the room. Everyone started clapping, except for me, for this lady that was walking in. I was kind of wandering why they were clapping; who was she?; why is she so important?; why didn't they clap for me when I walked in? So I continued not to clap, even when Maude nudged me to. She started talking....you know how it goes...anyways we later split off into groups to go to some other room. There another lady talked about Breakthroughs. "What the hell was she talking about," I was thinking. Boy did I have questions. What do you mean "forget" the past? How will I know what she's saying if I "forget" the past? "If I forgot the past," I asked her when she picked on me to speak, "Would I be here with clothes on now, would I remember how to tie my shoes, how would I remember to get here next time?" (Yea like that will ever happen) In other words, you don't make any sense.
It makes the very same sense of "words have no meaning"(???)
Man did I ask a lot of questions. I got VERY FEW answers.....some not making any sense. I couldn't believe that a good percentage of the room still signed up; even after some of their questions weren't answered. It killed me.....what a bunch of sheep. Well to say the least, on the way home, Maude didn't speak to me because I refused to sign up for the Forum. I didn't care, I told her exactly how I felt about the scheme that she got involved with. So now she's trying to get my girlfriend to go even when she knows that we can't afford it. Even if we could, I'd spend it on something else, indefinitely. Well Maude paid for Ann to go, and enrolled her into an October class. My question to you is:
"What am I to do?" I'm a very open person and I'm keeping my knowledge about what I experienced to myself so that I don't influence Ann in a negative way towards the Forum. It's not that I like what they're doing, but It does help those that are weak minded, and in need of attention. I know that Ann is strong hearted, but not strong minded. When it comes to giving in, she has a past of doing so. I'm afraid that she'll just do it for her friend's benefit, and, hopefully, not for her own. I'm all for self help, and I'll be the first to admit that Ann needs some kind of help with her unhealthy happens, such as eating disorders, sleeping disorders, time management, and priorities, but I can think of a number of different ways to help her through those "pitfalls" in her life. I'm just afraid that they'll reel her in if she reveals too much about her life.
Please respond soon, it'll be greatly appreciated.
Any other info will be very useful for me to talk with others that feel the same as
me.
Thanks for your time, Alex
I had the same offered to me by my zealot friend. He offered to return the money
himself (!) if I didn't show full satisfaction in the end. Anyway, this is a good case of
ovre-zelotry. I offered Tony two options:
1. Letting his girlfriend know about the Forum techniques, in order to protect her.
2. Telling the Landmark people about her history and "allergies". This should
cause them to reject her.
Anyone with a different opinion?
Anyway, I answered this kinda strange post which offered me 3 (no less) names as a possible person: Aaron (in the email address), Tony (in the beginning) or Alex (in the end). I got this:
It is Aaron Alduenda, and I guess my try at an alias, Alex or Tony,
really doesn't work; I'm glad to see that you have sense of humor.
Anyway, thanks for your response. It wasn't too late. You are more
than welcome to use my letter with my correct name in your up coming
page.
In the mean time, my girl friend is getting info from other people about
this Forum thing, she still hasn't attended the forum, but her friend
keeps sending letters about upcoming meetings and outings. I think
she's a little too busy to recognize what's coming her way. I don't
want her to be biased about the Forum before she goes, I'm not trying to
influence her one way or the other. I just hope that after she reads
some of your pages, she'll understand that it's all just a scam.
Ironically, one of her mentors phoned us last night about a forum
meeting that he just went to and left a four minute message describing
what positive things it did for him. When we both were listening to
this, I could see that she was thinking something, and not for the
good. (this email will end in a sec) Please inform me of one thing if
you could, how much does someone spend and/or make during their forum
sessions? To me this still seems like a huge "pyramid" scam. Why else
would someone offer to spend $300.00 to get someone to go?
Thanks for your time,
The real, Aaron Alduenda
I really liked your page! I am going to bookmark it. I was involved with Landmark "Education"(?!) about a year ago. I took the Forum, hated my instructor (I think I was the only one who actually screamed at him), actually took the advanced course (why, I have no friggin clue), walked out of it screaming (again) and was conned back in (I actually had the SAME arrogant bastard of a leader), and then, strangeness of all strange, took the SELP (hey, it was cheap compared to the rest). I never completed that course. I finally HAD IT with that piece of crap organization. I lost all self control, snapped back at the instructor (a different one thank the gods) several times, and finally walked out with people trying their hardest to get me to come back. In that last course, the straw that broke the camel's back were the questions: "how many of you still havent gotten some friends into the forum?" (a few hands) "how many of you have people that refuse to talk about the forum with you anymore?" (a few more hands) and "how many of you have friends that no longer speak to you because of the forum?" (!!! a few hands) "well, you are doing it wrong.". I was shocked. I got up in anger. I said "excuse me. But if I had a friend who was constantly telling me how great murder is, and just would not stop extolling the virtues of murder... if I don't give in and say 'you know, you're right! I should go murder someone today!' she is just 'doing it wrong?!?". They of course retorted that that was ridiculous, and that it had nothing to do with it. I said "the hell it doesn't". This was on the third session of the class. I stated that I was leaving. The instructor started then to turn against all the people who had left because we had "made a commitment" to stay. I said "I also made a commitment to my health and well being, and every time I come to this place I feel ill!". I couldn't stand to hear about these people, being talked about rather rudely when they weren't there. I simply said "Have fun slandering me after I leave" and left. I was bugged for quite some time after that. I wont give in to those freaks.
I feel really bad sometimes, because my husband is involved, and actually seems to get something out of it. He seems to be able to filter out all the "hard sell hard sell" stuff, I just can't. I refuse to go to any 'parties' that he is invited to, because all they talk about is landmark. Its like they have no life. I am not a rude person by any means, but it all comes out when Landmark people call here. "Oh hi, is this Bob's wife?" yes. "Oh HIIIIII! (in that fake, annoying, 'sure-I-really-give-a-crap' tone) How come I never see you around the center anymore?" Because I hate Landmark and I refuse to even go near the building. "Ummm oh. Well tell bob so-and-so called".
The only fights we have ever gotten into (and they are rare) were about Landmark. I wish he would 'see the light', and get away from them, but I am not going to coerce him into doing something he doesnt want to do. Oh well, I just have fun thinking of evil things to say to the people when they call. Muhuhahahah :)
Sorry I rambled, but well, you asked (Ya wanna talk about it?) ;)
If you feel like writing back, I look forward to it. If not, well then you are just 'running a racket' bwahahahahha.
-Amy
Since "running a racket" is none of my business (actually, this is one of the
few Forum terms I know nothing about, care to explaing, anyone?), I did answer Amy. Just
thought you'd like to know.
Please note that Amy refers only to the marketing techniques. It seems that if you take
away that, she'd be content with the rest, or didn't I get that straight?
To whom it may concern,
I read your piece concerning the Landmark Forum titled "Think About It" and found it to be very accurate.
I have a friend who is an active participant in Landmark Activities currently and would be interested in gaining more information regarding Landmark without actually going (I have been to the intro session and that was more than enough). I was wondering what information you had available regarding Landmark Education and the various courses.
I am concerned that my friend is slowly but surely isolating himself into a world that is more exclusively Landmark without even seeing it. I am concerned that I would alienate him if I were to too strongly express my opinions and am therefore wandering if you have any information that would be useful in perhaps opening his eyes up to what is occurring.
Anything you could supply would be helpful.
Thank you,
M.
It's quite hard to gather information regarding the more advanced courses because less people participate, and since they're enthusiasts already, they're not too willing to reveal. Read this page extensively, and you'll get some picture of Landmark.
Dear Gil,
I found your page while trying to gather some information on Landmark.
I found out about Landmark from someone who attended the forum. Now, of course, they are
talking (pressuring) me about attending.
I am seriously considering it.
I wanted to say that I found your information most helpful. I am not a big one for organized groups of any kind. I am interested in an individuals right to spirituality and insight. The advice you offer about going into this while maintaining critical thinking I think is key.
Thanks
M.
I cannot add to that. Do whatever you may, and thank's for appreciating my points.
Hey GA,
Great little essay. I like it. I like it.
Also the Awareness Page
http://www.digiweb.com/~ozark/awareness/
And of course Landmark Forum Rants and Raves.
http://www.inlink.com/~dhchase/forum.htm
Cheers!
Dave
Gee, I haven't visited his place in a very long time. I suggest you checked these links if you don't already know them.
Hi!
Thanks a lot for the information you provide on LEC. Your site is by far the best source on the Forum that I've read. You (and some other people with a healthy, critical mind) have preserved me from something I might have not wanted.
CU -- Igor.
Well *blush*, Igor, you're not so bad yourself... ;-)
Thank you.
AND JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT THAT MY PERFECT LITTLE PAGE IS BULLETPROOF:
A person by the name of Juan sent me a very critical post. The reason it's not included
here is not because I'm chicken, but because he still haven't given me permission to
publish his letter (there goes your annonimity claim, man). I could have slammed Juan out
right. But I won't because I have respect for people with opinions contrary to mine. The
only problem here is that Juan makes no point contrary to mine. He just makes a few
general claims.
I didn't answer Juan for each claim, because they are very general and I felt like doing
so in public for everyone to examine and comment. .
So I've taken the golden path of respecting a man's right to privacy (although the he may
have never recieved my answer...) while answering his claims, for important they are.
claim 1: My anonimity. Always signing as "g".
answer: It's only because of my humility. I'm not afraid to reveal myself, just don't feel
like putting a page like "Hi, my name is John Smith and here are a couple of pictures
of me sitting, standing and walking.". What a bore! But for the record my name is
Gil, you probably saw that earlier in this page while those of you who arrived from the
"Skeptic's Dictionary" know my full name already. Anyway, it appears whenever I
answer your posts. By this time, even Juan knows this claim to be untrue.
done
claim 2: Bashing of the Forum
answer: I don'y feel like I'm bashing the Forum, read some of the responses earlier and
you'll see some people had the impression I was giving a "green light" to go to
the Forum. Be that as it may, I AM entitled to my own subjective opinions, this is what
the Internet is all about. People from all over the world giving their "side of the
story". Take or leave it, this is how it is. At least I'm honest enough to admit
making mistakes every now and then. I don't stick to my claims like glue.
done
claim 3: Not unlike the Forum I'm also brainwashing people.
answer: Had that been true, I could have been as successful as the Forum. Unfortunately I
AIN'T. Brainwashing isn't giving people a set of constructed opinions. I will deal with
this term in the future with the respect it deserves. No brainwashing, just a set of
opinions and suggestions, people. And I may be wrong.
done
claim 4: This is a classic "catch 22" claim. It goes like this (I mentioned
this one earlier on): "You didn't 'get it', so you don't have the right to criticize
it".
answer: Juan presents me with only one option: "get it" or stop criticizing it.
But the catch is that once you "got it" you see no wrong in it. The two are
woven! It is a stronger claim than some people might think. Actually, the only weak spot
in this claim is this:
NOTHING, JUAN, NOTHING IS BEYOND CRITICISM! Not even God almighty, in my opinion, and
definitely not the Forum. You may criticize your president, the police, the army, the
judicial system, ANYTHING. What the hell makes you think the Forum is above all these?
Just because you had a good time and benefited from it? Does it mean no one from the
outside can say anything bad about it??? Does the phrase "freedom of speech"
ring a bell Juan? There is no need for me to do the Forum, as there is no need for me to
be a criminal in order to pass judgement on one. Think about it, indeed...
done, I hope.
So you've seen the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Now it's time for the WIERD!!!
i read your forum thing and i think you missed the point a bit
That's it. Nothing more. You sure got that right, buddy. Whatever it was that you meant...
Back to normality.
Thank god I came across your wesite. Last Friday I went down to London
to
attend the forum after my girlfriend and I had relationship difficulties.
She'd previously been in a cult and, having had therapy, has recovered well.
Anyway, a friend of hers recommended both of us go down to the forum, she
went, and recommended I go- after affirming that she loved me very much. I
attended, though as a doctor I'm rather critically minded and felt alert to
the possibility of a scam. Here's what happened to me:
!) First up, one guy from the audience asks if the landmark has any problem
with its 'hard sell'- as his girlfriend has persuaded him to attend.
According to the seminar convener, Jeff, it was not hard sell- the guy
simply had a problem as that's how he interpreted the sales pitch. It was
clear that plenty of people in the audience were nervous about being there.
2) I'd registered 36hrs previously. During the preamble, the convener asked
where the physician was sitting- and he knew my name without even looking at
my namebadge. I found this rather disconcerting, and suddenly I felt
aware-he really knew how to work an audience.
3) There was no information given whatsoever regarding Landmark as a company
, the structure of the course itself, the history of the organisation, the
background of the convener- (though he told us some trivia regarding his own
personal life, divorce etc- and of course how much the forum had helped
him).
4) Lots of wondrous promises and benefits were mentioned- all suitably
vague. These were casually dropped into the preamble- as a way of tempting
the audience to stay. The convener said 'we live in a sceptical world' so
naturally this should be suspended when thinking about the forum.
5) Two hours in he gave an ultimatum- enrol or leave and get your money
back. Not 'leave discreetly during the break' but leave in full glare of the
audience. A very subtle but powerful tactic. I was made to feel somewhat
guilty by leaving- instead of getting instant refund, they suggested I
reattend. I said I wanted my moneyback and they said it would take two weeks
before I saw my £250. (why the delay??)
I have thought hard about the strange experience I had that morning,
and whether I should take my girlfriends advice and register again, so I
tried searching the net for further information. Your spiel really struck a
chord and I'm so grateful to read it I can't thank you enough. All my gut
feelings were confirmed. It really is so easy to be hoodwinked by this
organisation.
I'd be happy to discuss my experience further, or share any thoughts on the
matter (at no cost !)
An acknowledgement of this e-mail would be appreciated.
Regards, Steve
I answered. Asked for a permission to put his post here and got this addition:
Thanks for the reponse to my e-mail. A couple of supplementary points
which
you may find of interest:
My girlfriend and her friend (who'd recommended the Landmark forum) had both
been in a charismatic happy-clappy Christian cult for 4-5 years. Its leader
was disgraced by the church and is now living , I fear, in the US. No actual
criminal charges were pressed against him, though he'd been party to
emotional and psychological abuses of various sorts. The victims, many of
whom were intelligent college grads, all had counselling,and it was a few
months after all this, in mid 1996, that I met a few of them, including my
girlfriend. The whole cult thing was a mild taboo and I didn't really want
to probe for detail..
Our relationship had been encountering some difficulties late last year when
her best friend recommended the Forum, which had been helpful for her.
In August we sort of split up and she decided to go to abroad for September,
but went to the forum on the way down. After each day of the forum I got a
phone call from her. she seemed untroubled, slightrly elated, and keen to
make some profound statement regarding myself or her father. Clearly there
was an attempt to resolve all of her complex life problems in one go! On the
final call she asked me to promise her that I'd attend. No I couldn't go to
London for the Tuesday bit, I replied. But would I promise to do the course-
it would be such a great idea!! (No convincing reason why given). All very
persuasive- and I did but, with bullshit detectors fully switched on, and am
I glad they were!!
My own feeling is that her -and probably others- have things about their
background that render them especially vulnerable to this kind of group. But
bloody hell, is it plausible !!
Incidentally I rang them on monday demanding money back- they say grudgingly
that it will be refunded (perhaps a further struggle for me!)
Is group hypnosis used?
I clearly have to speak with counsellor colleagues before deciding how to
approach her when she returns from abroad: I feel impelled to help if
possible, though I must tread with care.
Keep in touch as required. May your mind remain sharp, and may your nose
remain sensitive to the whiff of b*llsh*t.
Regards and thanks again,
SM
Thanks for your observations, Steve. I relate to hypnosis earlier on in this page.
Thanks for posting the information you did on Landmark Education.
A friend was trying to persuade me to go to a Tuesday Night meeting,
and I refused as gently as I possibly could, while referring to your
web page (among a few others).
--
J.M.
I responded and received this supplement
You may include me on your reader's response page...for the moment I
would prefer anonymity. That will probably change in a few months
when this settles out. Either my friend will decide he hates me, or
he'll probably get away from Landmark. We'll see.
You might (and might not) be interested in the entire text of the
letter I sent. I'll include it at the end of this one. I would
prefer that if you used it now it was anonymous, but I would like
credit for it eventually after the situation in my life blows over one
way or another. It took a lot of effort to write that letter and not
start ranting and raving!
J.M.
--------------------------------------------------
Dear ****,
Have you ever had the painful feeling that being a good friend meant
that you were going to have to do something that wasn't going to be
very likable? I am feeling that way right now.
I looked into The Forum and Landmark Education pages that you gave me.
Frankly, I found them alarming because they never said what they were
actually selling. It was full of platitudes, but no actual substance.
So I decided to probe a little deeper. I looked at some of the
articles about them on the web page. I discovered Landmark Education
is based on the techniques pioneered by Werner Erhard in the Est
Movement. Est was when they made you sit on hard chairs for hours on
end and hurled abuse at you and didn't let you go to the bathroom.
Est has been thoroughly discredited. Except that it was rewritten and
a lot of the obvious abuse was written out of the script and now it is
called Landmark Education. And maybe in reincarnating Est, in this
new form, it is a valuable program. That I don't know, but you do.
The next thing I did was a general web search. I found out the
Landmark Education is at the center of a controversy over whether it
is a cult or not. This also didn't exactly make me too happy.
It was clear from the numerous articles that I read that many people,
not just you, found the seminar to be valuable. But also that many
did not. And that the techniques reported seem questionable -- long
days with few breaks and only one meal break? This is est-like in the
abusive sense...no one is at their peak of strength without adequate
rest or food or breaks to stretch his or her legs. On top of this,
group pressure seems to be a key. And I am not a fan of group
pressure. Then there is the money thing. $300 for a weekend is
expensive. But then that isn't even enough, you also have an advanced
course for $700...and you are expected to prostelytize friends and
relatives to bring them for the Tuesday meeting so that they and you
can be sold more Landmark Education. Not even a 100% satisfaction
guaranteed or your money back.
****, I have one thing I want you to do, if you can, for me. It is to
go look at and read a series of web pages. The first one is at
http://www.actcom.co.il/gil-s/forum1.htm
I believe there are 11 pages
in all, forum1.htm to forum11.htm. This same is also available at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/8080/forum1.htm.
You might want to look at some others.
Http://www.inlink.com/~dhchase/main.htm
has both positive and negative
comments about Landmark Education.
Http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html
also had a lot to say.
And the Time article on The Best of Est.
****, if I didn't care about you a lot, I would have found a way to
not be available to you -- I could always invent an emergency trip to
Houston -- so sorry, it couldn't be helped. I do not want to lose a
good friend, or even risk losing a good friend. But, I also evaluate
what I see. I care about you too much to keep quiet. This stuff
really looks bad (in a very subtle way) to me on many accounts. I
know that it must offer some good -- if it didn't you wouldn't be
enthusiastic about it, but making a clear, rational and objective
determination takes a person at his or her best when the issue looks
subtle. I know that you can do that yourself. So please, please,
take a look at this stuff. Think about it. If Landmark Education is
good, but you can see some of this occurring, keep a life line to
reality when you venture there. I can help you with this...don't make
yourself vulnerable to coercion. Please look at those web pages. If
they are ridiculous, you will be better able to rebut my objections.
I can't call this anything but "sharing", sorry for the Forum-like connotations.
I can't add anything. This story tells plenty.
That's it for now, more posts will follow. I may reorganise this page in the future. Your opinions are always welcome.
So write to me and may the Force be with you.