The Interview/Survey

10 questions were asked of various Gorean Males: for the next few weeks we will be posting the responses to the questions. Comments from our readers are encourage. We hope you will find it informative and fascinating. We wish to thank those who have already sent in their responses, and hope the remaining will do so, soon. All responses are being posted in the order received.

1.   Setting aside "Honor", what is the most important thing You have learned on IRC Gor?

Lord_Night:: Even though... we Are Masters/Mistress... and those of you are Slaves I Have found that each person has there own Identity. and has Feeling. Respecting, those Ideas and Feeling make you a Person..

LexEldron:: Learned more about who I am and the Master/controlling side of me. Also, learning about other people, their ideas, and their lifestyles.

_Marcus_:: Honor doesn't really apply anyway, since it is (pardon the pun) virtually impossible for anyone to learn how to "acquire" honor through the limited interaction of IRC. You can learn ABOUT honor, from other people and their descriptions of how it applies to them, but honor is something which must come from within... a willingness to be honest and forthright in one's dealings with others.

I would have to say the most important thing I have learned through my experiences in online Gor is simply this: Take pride in who and what you are, and be yourself. There is no shame in being a scribe or a peasant, a leatherworker or a musician, a freeperson or a slave... as long as you are true to who you actually are, and do not strive to be something which you are not. We are not all Warriors and Ubars, nor should we strive to be. Although deception is easy enough to practice on IRC, why bother? In the end, the deceiver always loses... even if what they lose is the simple joyous freedom of being able to interact with his or her friends in honest and open communication, and the mutual appreciation of the Gorean ideal.

If there is any one "Great Abiding Principle" which encompasses Gorean philosophy, is seems to be this:

"Never be afraid to be what and who you are, and strive within those boundaries to better yourself for the good of all."

Oh, and... "the majority of women secretly yearn for the collar." (of course) : )

Zeb:: I'm glad you set aside honor (although a Warrior never truly can), because it has become the PC watchword of the IRCGorean community.

Probably one of the most fascinating things I have learned on IRCGor is that there is a very real emotional connection. Even though I only see words on a computer screen, I can feel what is coming through from the other person. I have met several men with whom I share a tighter bond than any that I have forged in 14 years of real life as a Warrior. I have also met some slave women with whom I have experienced the exhilirating power of Mastery. In every instance, the emotions were totally real, and totally valid. While we use the fantasy world of Gor as our backdrop, what I have felt online is absolutely genuine.

WhiteWarrior:: Friends and enemies come in all shapes and forms

2.   What has been Your most embarrassing moment?

Lord_Night:: Coming on IRC Gor at 3am in the morning half asleep and going right into a channel with my friends there and my old slave nick had loaded instead... when I had to reinstall my Mirc Program.... didnt realize it untill I had already greeted and Taled everyone..

LexEldron:: When there were 4 slave serves going on in a channel a once, and we ended up being confused on who was serving who.

_Marcus_:: Hmmm. Well, I have had a few macros go awry, and have accidentally toasted a few innocent bystanders while ban/kicking HNGs, which is why I rarely use kill macros anymore (besides which, though they can be rather humorous, such macro-kills do tend to get a bit silly after awhile).

I would have to say my most embarrassing moments have been when former slaves of mine behaved in an uncharacteristic non-Gorean fashion and engaged in personal sniping and the deception of others, to the detriment of our Gorean society. You will note I use the term "FORMER slaves of mine." I remedied each such situation as quickly as possible, made my sheepish apologies to our Gorean friends, and added the offenders to my /ignore list at once.

In such a wide-open, free-form environment as IRC, occasionally a few bad apples do slip past even the most vigilant of us, I fear.

Zeb:: Sure, like I would tell you that.

WhiteWarrior:: My very first time on Gor I got banned from S&S for not answering Forkbeard

3.   What was Your first mistake on IRC Gor and how did You overcome it?

Lord_Night:: My First Mistake was trusting other Masters and Mistress... thinking all Had Honor and Respect... which is not true... I have overcome this by learning what each one is like... talking with them learning from others about each other...

LexEldron:: My first mistake was being an Elf from D&D in Gor. Recovering meant dropping the Elf bit real fast.

_Marcus_:: My first mistake on IRC Gor was in attempting to behave as a Gorean Master, according to the books themselves, before I was familiar with the rules and necessities of IRC. It got me kicked out of channel pretty quick. Upon my return I learned the rules a bit better, and observed for awhile before I re-entered the thick of things, and have been here ever since.

It is therefore wise for all of us to consider the nature and the limitations of the medium of IRC before we all begin stomping around and shouting orders, or crawling around begging to serve someone.

Zeb:: My first mistake was my first slave. I enjoyed Mastering her, the netsex was decent, etc. But she quickly became totally hooked on me, and smothered me. I hated it. It got to the point where the sight of her disgusted me, because I knew she was going to fall all over me and drool and pant, etc. She just tried too damn hard and I wasn't pleased with her anymore. That wasn't really the bad part, though. The bad part was that I had lost interest in her, but was reluctant to let her go. There was still some Urthman left in me back then, I guess. By not dumping her as soon as I became uncomfortable with her, I made it worse for her in the end. The mistake then was for me to be sensitive to her feelings. I overcame by learning how to be more Gorean with regards to slaves :)

WhiteWarrior:: see above answer; went back later and slapped him with a trout

4.   Have You ever felt inadequate when dealing with a peer or slave? If Yes, How did You handle the situation?

Lord_Night:: Inadequate wouldnt be the word I would use... more like Frustated at times... some slaves do not listen and tend to go off on there own. Some Masters seem to let them run around.... How I handled it.... well I tend to let them go... how they act, goes back to how the Master is... there Honor is displayed through the actions of his slave...

LexEldron:: Constantly, but all I can do is keep pushing on and learning. There is always a fear that you will screw up and look dumb. Believe me, there are many out there that want to see you look that way for their own amusement and to make themselves feel superior.

_Marcus_:: Never have I felt inadequate with another person online. I simply try to be myself, and "stick to my guns" when confronted or challenged. I add that I am never afraid to admit my mistakes, and to attempt to correct them. An old Earth saying advises "Never apologize, it is a sign of weakness." Ha! What a load of crap that is. I feel that it takes more inner strength to admit your own faults and correct them than it does to refuse to admit you have any faults at all. I am a Master in spite of my faults; only a fool claims to be perfect.

I have encountered "slaves" who refused to obey, simply because the nature of IRC allows them that freedom. In addition, I have dealt with slaves who repeatedly ask to be taught, yet who seem to have a whiny "But, Master..." to counter everything I say. In such a case I am firm, and patient, until my dealings with that person no longer seem a productive use of my time. When I reach that point, I simply cease to pay them any attention, and make a mental note to whip them if ever I encounter them in r/l, where the rules are somewhat different.

Zeb:: Honestly, no. IRC is all about communication, mostly written. In that area, I have never felt inadequate. I have met a few who were on my level, and with them I have enjoyed holding discourse. I especially enjoy a spirited discussion with someone who does *not* share my views. By defending the philosophy to which I subscribe, I am more fully able to understand it myself.

WhiteWarrior:: Never

5.   If You could change one thing on IRC Gor, what would it be?

Lord_Night:: Find ONE Law.. ONE training way, ONE way everyone will understand the Law , there are different training techniques, and ways they look at the Law of Gor..

LexEldron:: That all here would accept that we are all here for our own reasons. To not to look down on others because they are not exactly like us. To have all accept [not necessarily socialize with] each other for who we are, rather then what we want others to be. We all want to be accepted for who we are, even us so called players. Also, throw in world peace while we are at it <grins>.

_Marcus_:: I would add additional safeguards which would force people to face the consequences of their actions, to limit the ability for a person to maliciously mistreat their fellow online Goreans and walk away scot-free. Online suicides, the casting away of valid collars, and the recent rash of cyber-"killings" are an annoyance and detriment to our ongoing Gorean interaction. Keep in mind that as far as "kill-macros" and the like are concerned, I have more blood on my blade than almost anyone online; I was a really prolific "cyber-killer" once upon a time. I have simply learned that such actions have no effect on the recipient, and no longer bother to use such artifices in my dealings with others.

However, I suggest that if "cyber-killings" were actually real, and if "cyber-whippings" inflicted actual pain, that online Gor would be a very different, and much less silly, place.

Zeb:: Probably the biggest thing missing on IRCGor is the ability to enforce one's will upon another. In the books, one can enslave a woman against her will. One has the culture and the law behind one. She cannot simply "switch off" when she gets tired of playing. But on IRC, no one can ever be made to do anything they do not wish to do. This allows a woman to detach herself emotionally from the experience. The reason this is bad is that it allows her a cushion with which to protect herself from the awesome power of her own sexuality as expressed through her submission. Women understand this instinctively, and fear it. Why is it that women are so emotionally traumatized by rape on Urth? It is because they feel totally powerless and helpless. In Gorean terms it is because they have been made to feel female.

There are two classes of people on IRCGor. There are those who cannot look at life through Gorean eyes. They continue to apply Urthen values to what they do on IRC. To them, slave rape is an abhorant act of violation. But to the group of people on IRC who are able to view life without the constraints of Urthen values, a much smaller group than above, rape is a tool which can be used by a Master to teach a woman her own sexuality.

WhiteWarrior:: get rid of the gamers and abusers

6.   Where do You feel FreeWomen are making their biggest mistake on IRC Gor?

Lord_Night:: Thinking they are FREE.. they are allowed to be free... but in all n all MEN Control GOR....

LexEldron:: When slaves become FreeWomen because they feel it will make life on IRC Gor easier for them. They then find that their slave hearts go unfulfilled and you find them filp-flopping back and forth from FreeWoman to slave looking for some elusive fulfillment.

_Marcus_:: When a FreeWoman attempts to behave as, and emulate, a Gorean male, she is making a grave mistake. The Gorean male and the Gorean female are simply not the same, as is the case with their Earth counterparts. The rights and privileges accorded to a Gorean FreeWoman are not identical to those of the free Gorean male. Like the Gorean male, the Gorean FreeWoman has her own particular niche in Gorean society, with a specific set of rules she must follow. In this area she is no different from anyone else on Gor. Within Gorean social structure, everyone has an assigned place, and there is an assigned place for everyone.

To be a Gorean FreeWoman is to be in a very precarious position. She is expected to respect the status of the Gorean male at all times, since she exists in a society which can potentially enslave her should she misbehave. In effect, she must simply "act like a Lady." When she strays from such proper and deferential behavior, she should understand that there is a collar awaiting her; that is simply the way Gor works.

Everytime I have seen a FreeWoman fail in her interactions on IRC Gor, it has been because she has overstepped her boundaries, attempted to scorn Gorean males as an equal, or allowed herself to engage in manipulative or even sluttish behavior. It would be well for these females to remember that upon Gor, the FreeWoman is the most constrained and limited of social classes. She is allowed to exist, and is exalted and valued, only as long as she remains worthy of her pedestal.

Zeb:: The biggest mistake they make is in trying to apply Urthen cultural postulates to support the Gorean system of philosophy. There are no Xenas on Gor. The Panther Women are able and strong, but one that dared walk down the streets of Ar would be enslaved in moments. Free Women do have a place on Gor. But that place isn't all that far from the chains of bondage. Free Women on Gor are only somewhat less subservient than their sisters in chains. The few Free Women of whom we hear much about in the books are usually the ones that end up enslaved. Norman makes them into total bitch princesses as Free Women so that we may enjoy their eventual and inevitable fall into bondage and savor more fully the sweetness of their submission. Norman has rarely chosen to give us insight into the lives of "normal" Free Women, which makes sense since he was writing for "highly sexed intellectuals" (his words). Such people aren't interested in reading about some Baker's wife. They want to see the proud, haughty, bitch turn into a helpless writhing slave girl.

WhiteWarrior:: they assume they are "equals" of the Freemen where they are not in the books

7.   3rd person slave speech was not commonly used in the scrolls of Norman, till the later writings - Why do You feel it is beneficial to be used on IRC Gor?

Lord_Night:: it keeps the slave knowing who she/he is.. that they have no Property on Gor. Nothing but what the Master desires.

LexEldron:: It is a controlling device that allows a slave to remember who they are. It is easy for us to drop into an informal mode, which usually ends up with someone getting angry and the slave taking the blunt of it. By forcing a situation to stay proper, you have less chance of slaves crossing boundries. Also, when a slave drops out of 3rd Person, there may be a problem that should draw the attention of any FreePerson around.

_Marcus_:: Although there are several precedents from the Gor books which allude to "speaking as a slave" in the third person, it seems not to be universally enforced in Gorean society. In any case, it does tend to be a useful mnemonic device whereby slaves are constantly reminded, through the very framing of their words, of their social status and place in Gorean society. In addition, it seems to me that such a mode of communication places less emphasis on the individuality of the slave herself, and the great commonality of the shared slave experience. "I am nothing, I am slave... I set aside my will and join my sisters in the ranks of joyful submission," etc.

Although the practice seems to have been adopted by we Goreans from other, non-Gorean traditional B/D/s/m sources, it certainly seems effective in a text-only medium such as IRC. While I neither endorse nor comdemn it, I personally have no problem with it.

Zeb:: It has become our custom in the Silk & Steel. Although there is only a limited basis for it in the books, it is not without precedent. To the extent that it requires a bit of concentration on what one is saying, I feel it is of benefit to keep the convention in place.

WhiteWarrior:: I don't and would like to see it done away with..it merely causes confusion and clouds what they are really trying to say

8.   Where do You feel Book Knowledge fits in to IRC Gor, and How is it beneficial?

Lord_Night:: IN todays GOR... on IRC it really doesn't seem to fit... some are just using the Gor name to get at the girls on line... (kinda like a sex channel) yes they act like it and have a Gorean Theme.. BUT it takes some more to be Gor then just that.. but the Book knowledge is of upmost imprtance .to understand... it tells you what Gor should really be like... and that should imenate form your Channel

LexEldron:: Book knowledge, if anything else, allows us to have a common base of reference for this Land of IRC Gor. It is almost like a guidebook that allows us to follow a path. Unfortuately, IRC Gor can not be Book Gor. That leaves us to pick and choose those aspects of Book Gor which fit IRC Gor. Too bad we can not always agree which parts will fit, but I guess that is what gives flavor to IRC Gor. I think the bottom line here is to just be practical about IRC Gor and to accept its short comings and advantages for what they are.

_Marcus_:: The answer seems obvious; Gor is a fictional world based upon a series of books. To learn more about the atmosphere we are all trying to create in our IRC channels, it makes sense for us all to learn as much about that world, and atmosphere, as possible. While one can certainly learn from others online, by emulating them and asking questions, there is a vast storehouse of Gorean knowledge in the source books themselves, waiting to be studied. Although the books can be difficult to acquire and peruse, I fail to see how anyone interested in Gor would not desire the opportunity to learn more about their adopted world.

If you want to learn how to fix an automobile, read a car repair book. If you want to learn about Gor, read a Gor book. The more we all know, the better a simulation of Gorean society we can all create.

Zeb:: First of all, if you haven't read the books, then you damn sure won't learn about Gor online. Gor is about so much more than what you see on IRC. I say this over and over again, because the message doesn't seem to get through, that there is a foundation to Gorean philosophy. It consists of a set of values that are unlike those found on Urth. Only once you understand the Gorean value set and internalize it, can you approach IRCGor from a Gorean perspective. If you retain your Urthen values, then you will subscribe to all the silliness like protection collars, white-silk that doesn't mean white- silk, female warriors, and so on, ad nauseum.

Secondly, the books are rich. Norman has very carefully constructed an entire culture. In the later books, though often dry and pedantic, he sets out a very complete philosophy. Without this background of knowledge, you can only mimic on IRC what you see others doing.

WhiteWarrior:: no comment

9.   Are there any customs to IRC Gor, that You do not feel are reflective of the writings of Norman?

Lord_Night:: to be Honest ... FreeWoman holding control in Inns and Taverns.. Halls and Keeps, the FreeWoman only should own some shops and maybe a healing area... but not an Inn or Tavern

LexEldron:: Many, but IRC Gor can not be based on the Books fully. One situation is the consentual slavery part. You can imagine what IRC Gor would be like if the slaves were bought, sold, and wagered like cattle without their consent. I am not sure there would be many slaves on IRC Gor if that were true. Again, with IRC Gor, you must be practical about the limitations.

_Marcus_:: Several. Misuse of the terms "white-silk" and "red-silk" come immediately to mind, as does the prevalent fashion among some channels to clothe their slaves in priceless gowns and gem-encrusted collars which bear a closer resemblance to jewelry than to a symbol of embonditiude. The entire concept that an uncollared slave can wander at will, serving Masters of her own choosing, bears little resemblance to the nature of slavery as described in the books. Intricate and ritualized "serves" wherein slaves perform detailed actions which represent the "three Gorean moons" and the "four directions of the winds" are more along the lines of a dance than any actual food and beverage service described in the books themselves. In addition, the ongoing practice wherein a Master "protects" slaves which he does not own, or which are not the property of a specific Master or institution, goes against the strictures set down in the books. If a slave has no Master, she has no protection, according to the books... anything else is cheating.

Oddly enough, many who have been on Gorean IRC now seem to accept these deviations from Norman's writings as correct. Just as there are no "castles" on Gor, no "knights" and "kings", and there are no such mountains as the "Sardarian Mountains" (there is a mountain range called the SARDAR mountains, however) and no such cliffs as "the cliffs of Ar." But for every Gorean who knows these do not exist, there are three online Goreans who will swear that they have seen these things in the source books.

In addition, usage of the word "Tal" as a form of farewell is not typically Gorean. The restriction of the word "Tal" to freepersons only is not found in the books. The insistance that slaves always speak in the third-person, and that they laboriously greet each and every freeperson they see when they enter a channel, is not found in the Gor books; nor is the practice of having each slave beg to enter or to leave a channel. Many of these things have been adopted by IRC users, either because they thought these customs were Gorean, or because the customs make it easier to interact on a text-only medium.

And for the record, if a slave begs for a man's collar and is refused, he does NOT have to slay her. That rule is a part of the Gorean Warrior's codes, and only applies when a FREEWOMAN facestrips herself and openly submits to a member of the WARRIOR caste. If a woman is already a slave, she is afforded no such dignity as the right to an honorable death. In such a case, the Warrior can simply refuse to collar the slave in question.

Zeb:: There are a couple of minor differences. There is the use of third person in speech, as we have discussed. It is used in the books, but not exclusively. We also insist that slaves use lowercase letters in their names. This, of course, is not correct English, but the convention allows us to see who is slave and who is not. Also, the word "Tal" is not reserved for Free Persons in the books. It is just a simple word of greeting (not farewell) used by all. Although this is not in strict keeping with the books, such practices have become custom in the Silk & Steel.

The major difference, as I mentioned above, is that slaves on IRCGor will always retain free will. Every slave girl on IRCGor is there by choice. That is certainly not the case in the books. The fact that slaves can never be forced to do anything that they do not wish to do changes the nature of the Master/slave relationship on IRCGor. It does not mean, however, that the slave is in control. The final measure of control lies with the Master in that he can choose to simply ignore the girl who does not obey. If he happens to be an Operator, he can further cause her to be removed from the channel. Out of sight, out of mind. I have seen slaves who were spurned in such a fashion beg to be given another chance. The few who get one seem to return much improved.

WhiteWarrior:: red silk kajirus?(hehe) and the way some Masters deal with their slaves

10.   Where do You feel role play is beneficial to IRC Gor?

Lord_Night:: between slave and Master.... where else..

LexEldron:: I believe that role playing is very important in IRC Gor. But I also think there is a bad taste in most Gorean mouths when you say that because of the reference to roleplaying games in that statement. I am not saying you 'play' when you role play, but you do act a part. When I am in IRC Gor, I am a Gorean Master; when I am at work, I am a Computer Technical Consultant; and when I am with my Son, I am a Father. We play parts all the time no matter where we are, because we are expected to act a certain way when placed there. The key is whether or not we take our parts seriously. That is were people become offended and name calling begins. I take my part here on IRC Gor very seriously, and I get very offended when others tell me I can never be Gorean [one extreme] or when others tell me IRC Gor is just a game [another extreme]. To me IRC Gor is not a game, and whether I carry the title 'Gorean' in some minds does not mean I will not continue my 'roleplaying' here. I have heard it said that some come to Gor to roleplay being Gorean - others leave Gor to roleplay real life. I am sure I probably do both.

_Marcus_:: Roleplay is what gives our online atmosphere its distinctly Gorean flair. By saying we are drinking or serving "paga" in a Gorean "city," and by identifying ourselves as Gorean "Warriors" or "Merchants" or "kajirae," we are attempting to interact with one another as we would if we were actually upon another world, the world of Gor. If we disavow all such little bits of roleplaying, we are surrendering the illusion that we are on Gor, and we all wind up sitting in IRC channels chatting about the books and what they mean. While there is certainly nothing wrong with that, I cannot deny that without the Gorean trappings, Gor online would be a lot less fun.

It is only when the trappings become more important than the conversations, and the chatters begin to subscribe to the belief that our interaction is ONLY a game, devoid of real people and real personalities, that IRC Gor turns into inane and insipid claptrap. There is one reason for this: IRC Gor, if it is ONLY a game, just isn't a very good one. There are no hard rules, no way to increase your wealth, skill and prestige, and no way to actually match yourself against your "opponents." Such a game can only end up with lots of different "characters" insulting each other online, endlessly playing a silly game of online "tag, you're it."

If that is what you are interested in, I personally suggest Ultima Online by Origin Games, which is an online virtual world where you can actually have fun playing, kill monsters (and other players), and run around pretending to be a bad-ass. It is certainly much more exciting than IRC Gor, as far as games go.

The roleplaying which occurs on IRC Gor is a much more subdued type of roleplaying, and the trappings such as paga and sleens are there merely to enhance the interaction, and not to replace it.

If your interaction with others online is more concerned with "how many imaginary larls you have slain" than with the reality of communicating meanfully with your fellow Goreans, then you have completely missed the point.

Zeb:: The Silk & Steel tavern was founded out of a need for those of us (all two of us at the time) who were of a Gorean mindset to have a place to enjoy each other's company without the restriction of the nonGorean bdsm channels. Our philosophy and our values, though many of us live them fully in our day-to- day lives, come from a set of fantasy books. Some degree of role play, therefore, is inevitable.

IRC provides a conduit through which our inner selves can flow. Imagine the woman who has risen to a position of professional power, yet feels the slave within herself. In the office, she may be the cool calculating boss. But on IRC she is free to be a naked slavegirl striving to serve a man's pleasure. Is that role play? Yes, to a degree. Is it beneficial? Also yes, for it allows that portion of ourselves which is repressed by the Gray World and it's stifling culture to break free. It is a belief among Goreans that individuals must be free and honest unto themselves. We are not always given that freedom on Urth. On IRC, with the backdrop of a fantasy world, we can free ourselves to be that which we are.

WhiteWarrior:: in some cases it keeps the excitement of Gor alive