Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 06:45:49 -0800 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] Two notes on WAR FOR THE OAKS To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU 1) It made (via my nomination) the Booksense Top Ten list of recommended SF / F recently http://www.booksense.com/readup/booksense76/scifi/index.jsp 2) For those of you who know Emma broke her elbows in an accident in August, the latest is that she is healing, but has a way to go before recovering fully. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:13:04 -0500 From: Terri Wakefield Subject: [*FSF-L*] War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU This months BDG read, is War for the Oaks by Emma Bull. I found it to be delightful! The characters were lovable, the plot moved quickly, and it was basically pretty upbeat, with lots of Phouka humor throughout. A little background........ War for the Oaks is a reissue, originally published in 1987, and considered to be a classic of Urban Fantasy. Reading it for the first time I did not find any of the material, even the music, to be dated. WFO won the Locus Award for Best First Novel. Interestingly, Emma later went on to form a duo with the Fabulous Lorraine, named The Flash Girls. They won the Minnesota Music Award for Best World Folk Band. Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, and Jane Yolen, among others are featured on their cd¹s. I would say that Emma Bull is probably a bit fey in addition to her War for the Oaks character Eddi McCandry . A few questions....... Did you find the human characters, the Seelie, and Unseelie believable? Who did you consider to be the most likable? The most despicable? How did you feel about the various battle scenes? Did others get the feeling War for the Oaks had a bit of an anti war statement to it? Terri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:31:47 -0500 From: Terri Wakefield Subject: [*FSF-L*] Emma Bull Sites To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU A few interesting Emma Bull sites......... http://realitybreak.sff.net/archive/bull.htp http://www.qnet.com/~raven/emma.html http://www.player.org/pub/flash/flash.html http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/Emma_Bull.htm Terri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:15:13 EST From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU I'll try to avoid spoilers for those who haven't finished it yet. I love War For the Oaks and have it in the original signed paperback and a hardcover. Since I live in and love Minneapolis, where the story is set, I identify very strongly with the plot: save my city! I found the central characters to be believable, they had enough depth that I felt they had a background even if they didn't talk about it in the story. Their changes throughout the action of the story were consistent with their personalities. The most likable people were Eddi and the Fey, including the pookha. I adored the brownie. I loathed the redcaps. The battle scenes were interesting, the POV was consistent and the time dilation/compression was realistic of high stress situations. Haveing never been in a battle, I can't speak to the realism. An antiwar feeling? Yes, I suppose, in that war is a waste of lives. But seemed to me that there was a strong theme of "Some things are worth fighting for" but the weapons needn't be swords or guns. I loved Eddi as the protagonist/hero who was able to ask for and receive help while not losing her position as the leader. This is my first time in this discussion group and I'm looking forward to the responses. Thanks! Lou ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:16:58 -0800 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] Emma Bull To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU her pretty sparse home page http://homepage.mac.com/emmawill/ Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:14:52 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU This message is very, very long. I apologize to any who find me tedious. My excuse is that I absolutely love this book. Terri asked: >A few questions... Did you find the human characters, the Seelie, >and Unseelie believable? In general, yes. However, it did seem a little strange that it was so easy for Eddi and the other human characters to come to grips with the existence of Faerie beings and magic. None of them seriously wondered if they were going crazy? One phouka transformation and it all made sense suddenly? Not likely. But I didn't really care, because that level of psychological realism didn't seem to be the point of the book. What bothered me a little more was the question of why the Seelie and Unseelie Courts decided to bind mortals so they could kill one another. If Eddi's duel with the Dark Queen served the same purpose, couldn't they have arranged something like it *before* there were so many deaths? I wonder if this is what they call a "maguffin"? A situation that drives the plot, but turns out to be much less interesting or comprehensible than other elements of the story? >Who did you consider to be the most likable? The phouka, of course. Clever, funny, a unique fashion sense. And there's something weirdly appealing about a man with no name. >The most despicable? Stuart was the most pathetically nasty, but I didn't feel I knew him well enough to despise him. And I give him extra credit for coming up with a hilariously bad band name: InKline Plain. >How did you feel about the various battle scenes? They seemed a bit too brief. Like they were supposed to convey a "war is hell "feeling, but didn't have enough heft to pull it off. But once again, to go into it too much would have skewed the tone of the book, I think. >Did others get the feeling War for the Oaks had a bit of an anti war >statement to it? I suppose so, but I don't feel it was that important in the scheme of things. So what was important to me? A lot, actually. There's a unique chemistry in this book that makes it, at least for me, a revelatory, life-affirming, read again and again experience. I see the clunky bits, but because *War for the Oaks* does some other things *so well*, I can overlook the weaknesses. The City. I once received a survey that asked, "What is most important to you: what you are doing, who you're with, or where you are?" I thought it was a bizarre question, but upon reflection realized that I could actually answer it -- I'm a "where" person. The place I live informs my sense of self in a profound way that I don't fully understand, but *want* to understand, perhaps after a life's work of bonding with and truly knowing a single landscape, a single town. When I read *War for the Oaks*, I could feel the author's bond with Minneapolis in her descriptions of the streets, the clubs, the rivers and lakes. She's no tourist -- she knows and loves that city, and not in a falsely nostalgic or sentimental way. That's rare, and valuable, to me. The Music. Where would we be without it? And why don't writers talk about it more? Maybe they just don't have the experience, don't know the words. Maybe they just aren't as affected by music as I am. Or maybe I'm not reading the right books. In any case, I love Bull's focus on music. The bad gig at the beginning, the auditions, the exhilaration of playing with an outstanding band, even the set lists and chapter names (did everyone notice that they were all song titles?). And the account of the final performance came about as close, visually, to describing the transcendent experience some songs and performances can be as I've ever read. Of course, it can't hurt that Bull and I like some of the same music. Boiled in Lead is a real band, in case anyone is curious. I finally ordered their collection "Alloy" a few months ago and loved it. And Emma Bull has her own band, The Flash Girls, which, though pretty much history, did come out with a new CD recently (before she broke her elbows). Good stuff. The Friends. Eddi's final victory would be impossible without them. Carla and Dan are the loyal support system that anchors Eddi in this world, and damn fine musicians to boot. But there are three special friendships that stand out for me. Eddi's relationship with Willy is first played as swept-off-your-feet romance, but in surprisingly short order that's over with and they move on to something more interesting. Over the years I've heard a lot of jokes about people breaking up and speaking the deadly words, "We can still be friends." Willy even makes one. But in my experience friendship and romance are a lot more closely tied than the conventional wisdom would have it, and it really is possible for a relationship to change from one to the other (in either direction) or be some weird combination of the two. I liked seeing that in this book, and it made Willy's death all the more sad. Hedge is a really odd fellow, and his connection with Eddi intrigued me. In a way, Eddi is his mentor. She encourages him, makes him feel safe, and slowly draws him out of his apathetic sullen-teenager persona. But he has his own power too. I love the descriptions of his bass-playing. Bass is the foundation that most rock music is built on, the little-appreciated but crucial instrument that keeps the groove on. And Hedge is a fey embodiment of that principle. He's not showy, but without him on her side, Eddi can't win. And then there's Hairy Meg, the brownie. So many members of the Seelie Court are described as beautiful, but Meg is the opposite. She's "profoundly ugly", and one of the most valuable friends Eddi could make. She could have come across as a laughable eccentric, but instead she has dignity (despite lack of clothes), she's powerful, and she's profoundly respected, even among the high-born Sidhe. A truly wonderful crone. The Romance. This is the book's biggest strength. I won't mince words -- this is my favorite romance ever. We've argued before on this list about the worth of the romance genre. For my part, I have never read (or wanted to read) a Harlequin, but have always been interested in the conventions and execution of romance elements in the books I have read. It's very easy for an author to put a foot wrong (at least in my estimation), to be too predictable or too sudden, too boring, too pornographic, or too sexist. *War for the Oaks* makes none of those mistakes. The phouka is Good Company from the beginning, for the reader, if not Eddi. Eddi's interlude with Willy poses a strong contrast to her relationship with the phouka and adds more spice and complication to the whole. There's plenty of buildup, just as in real life. (People don't suddenly realize they are attracted to one another, then immediately fall into one another's arms. They check each other out first.) There's no shame about the attraction or the sex; they're both ready, whole-hearted and loving. The level of tension and detail is perfect. And, unusually, the point of view is entirely Eddi's as actor and observer. It never ceases to amaze me how romantic scenes, often written by women, treat the viewpoint characters (usually also women) as objects, to be acted upon by the male principle. Maybe I am in the tiny minority and I just don't know it, but this has always frustrated me. At times, when the strangely common rape imagery makes an appearance, it really pisses me off. This book presents a healthy heterosexual alternative. It's not man vs. woman. It's not man making woman whole. The relationship isn't presented as being about NEEDS at all. It's about two people who genuinely respect each other, enjoy one another's company tremendously, and get to have great sex into the happily ever after. Wish fulfillment? Sure thing. And I love it. What about you? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Tool -- Lateralus "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:03:19 -0500 From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU No problem with the length, for me anyway - I really enjoyed your thoughts, having just finished the book. Agreed about the music especially. It would take a musician to write this well about making music, and how often have I read fiction that does that this well, or half this well, with any kind of music? In fact, I'd like people to name any novel that competes. (The closest I can get to it is movies like Amadeus, but that's cheating - they play the music in the movie). I really liked the mix of realism with fantasy. The realism is about a place, yes, and a specific time (nailed down by the music more than anything), and a subculture. These are not precisely my own time/place/culture, but I somehow had the same pleasure in reading them as if they had been - which is a particular pleasure indeed, and quite different from the pleasure of being introduced into some alien culture. I guess it was close enough to my experience, though most of the songs I didn't know, and I've never been to Minneapolis. But I loved that Bull was claiming faerie for her generation and place, she was making it her own, (and all of ours) not Tolkien's or some distant medieval link to the present: the faeries wore modern dress, they played modern music, they liked electricity (though not cars). And Eddi became a powerful purveyor of magic while being in every way a modern woman (e.g. I really liked Janice's comments below on the romance between equals). So there was really nothing in the book that was hankering after a simpler, more pastoral time. I loved that the Phouka wanted to democratize the old Faerie class structure. This was one of the most original ideas in the book, to me. So much of fantasy writing is a rejection of the modern industrial world, part of a romantic elevation of the old times... usually rather easily forgetting that those were the times when a horrifying percentage of women died in childbirth, maybe a third of babies didn't reach one year old, agricultural labor was back-breaking and life short etc. Science fiction, of course, has often celebrated the modern, or when it has excoriated it, has rarely seen the pre-modern as that much rosier. If the whole appeal of fantasy has been bound up with nostalgia for pre-modern consciousness, where does this put Bull's book? I don't know, but I like it: that's what's new about it, to me, that she's in love with the modern city. War For The Oaks does not have as completely new a set of characters and concepts as Philip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy, which I find to be the most inventive and exciting fantasy I've read in a very long time. It isn't as ambitious in the ideas it raises. It does after all deal with the trad faerie figures. But it's in there with the best of the books that are remaking what fantasy is. I suppose this connects with magic realism... One nitpick. If this is trad European paganism transported to America, what happened to the other trad cultures now in America? The band has a black guy, but where are the African pagan spiritfolk? The Native American spirit people? Too complicated, maybe, to do it, to combine pantheons? It's Minneapolis, after all, not New Orleans? It would have worked better for me, all the same, if it had been set in Glasgow, for that reason - not that Scotland lacks its immigrants now either... Dave Dave Belden web page: www.davidbelden.com Janice Dawley wrote: >And, unusually, the point of view is entirely Eddi's >as actor and observer. It never ceases to amaze me how romantic scenes, >often written by women, treat the viewpoint characters (usually also women) >as objects, to be acted upon by the male principle. Maybe I am in the tiny >minority and I just don't know it, but this has always frustrated me. At >times, when the strangely common rape imagery makes an appearance, it really >pisses me off. This book presents a healthy heterosexual alternative. It's >not man vs. woman. It's not man making woman whole. The relationship isn't >presented as being about NEEDS at all. It's about two people who genuinely >respect each other, enjoy one another's company tremendously, and get to >have great sex into the happily ever after. Wish fulfillment? Sure thing. >And I love it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:16:42 EST From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU For a more diverse integration of mythos (mythi?) try Emma's "Bone Dance". Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:38:00 -0800 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] speaking of America's melting pot of gods... To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU See Neil Gaiman's AMERICAN GODS. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:12:11 -0500 From: Sandra Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Hello everyone. Thank you Dave, Janice and Lou for the very helpful comments to date on War for the Oaks. I, too, really liked the sense of place Emma Bull incorporates but I don't know Minneapolis at all so I really appreciated Lou's comment: >>Since I live in and love Minneapolis, where the story is set, I identify very strongly with the plot: save my city!<< I really liked the early descriptions in the Prologue of the Nicollet Mall winding through the city "like a paved canal" and then the "voices in Peavey Plaza": it seemed an easy transition into a fantasy world. As Dave wrote: >>I really liked the mix of realism with fantasy. The realism is about a place...<< Lou also wrote: >>An antiwar feeling? Yes, I suppose, in that war is a waste of lives. But seemed to me that there was a strong theme of "Some things are worth fighting for" but the weapons needn't be swords or guns.<< The statements I was most interested in regarding war were the following: "A true war is one in which the blood of immortals is shed. Anything less has all the significance of a hard-fought game of football, to the Folk." (the phouka in reply to Eddi's question "There is a difference between a territorial squabble and a war?") and this "Death had won all night, and would do it again, on and on at every battlefield...." I think Lou summed it up nicely. I was also impressed by the very simple statement on page 304 in my edition: "We're all immortal until we die." Janice wrote: >>The most despicable? Stuart was the most pathetically nasty, but I didn't feel I knew him well enough to despise him. And I give him extra credit for coming up with a hilariously bad band name: InKline Plain.<< In the edition I have (2001, Orb Edition/Tom Doherty Associates), there is an appendix entitled "That Would Make a Great Movie" and it includes some scenes from a screenplay written by Emma Bull and her husband Will Shetterly. One of the scenes sheds a different light on the character of Stuart and until I read it I felt the same way as Janice described above. Bull points out: "Will and I were able to fill out Stuart's story and give it more resolution, something I couldn't do when I was writing exclusively from Eddi's point of view." Bull also explains that in the screenplay, the names of the Seelie Court and the Unseelie Court were changed to the Summer and Winter Courts because, although the former are traditional names in Britain, in this story the Folk are in America "and we wanted the names to reinforce the character of the two groups: one concentrated on growing, the other on dying, but each essential to the other's existence and part of the natural world." Janice, I especially appreciated your summing up of what was important to you: the City, the Music, the Friends and the Romance. I think if Hairy Meg had appeared a little oftener I'd have had trouble choosing between her and Eddi and the Phouka as my favourite character. She is very definitely, as you put it "a truly wonderful crone". The relationship between Eddi and the Phouka is indeed written strongly and honestly. "Wish fulfillment?" Janice said. Oh, yes, but, even more so, hope fulfillment. Bravo, Emma. Lou, I am looking forward to finding and reading Bone Dance. Thanks for the rec. Sandra ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:40 +0100 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Hi Everyone, Finally, I've managed to finish one of the discussion groups with enough time to join in on the discussion. On 3 Dec 2001, at 14:13, Terri Wakefield wrote: > This months BDG read, is War for the Oaks by Emma Bull. I loved this book! It was thoroughly enjoyable and since I'm a musician myself all Emma's descriptions of what happened when they played music were icing on the cake! > A few questions....... > Did you find the human characters, the Seelie, and Unseelie > believable? Actually, I found most of the human characters to be pretty believable (although I think Eddi is too perfect to be true!). I found most of the Fey had clear personalities. But then I don't know what the Fey are supposed to be like so the way Bull chose to portray them was by necessity believable. Or better said, I was obliged to suspend any disbelief as to their characters because you can't measure them to human characters. > Who did you consider to be the most likable? The most despicable? The Queen of Air and Darkness and all the other Unseelie characters are supposed to be despicable but I also disliked the Lady of the Seelie Court. The other Seelie characters and the humans (except Stuart of course) were all good sorts. I especially liked the Phouka from the very beginning. He seemed the sort of man that I think most hetero-women are looking for: Thoughtful and thought-provoking, kind, a good listener and good-looking. > How did you feel about the various battle scenes? I was really surprised that Eddi got so involved on a personal level so quickly. But I realized very soon after that that was a big part of the message. Eddi couldn't just watch anyone who was on the Seelie side just die. She had to do what she could to prevent it. The scenes themselves were, like the rest of the book, told from a very narrow point of view - Eddi's. Because of this I think it is nearly impossible to give a real sense of BATTLE. It was very personal with short, intense fights. > Did others get the feeling War for the Oaks had a bit of an anti war > statement to it? I'm not sure about this. I got the feeling that Emma was saying that there are things that are worth fighting for. If you don't stick up for your ideals and rights, then you are ambivalent about them and can't be upset about losing them. I think she was hoping that one would come away with the feeling that there are better solutions than war itself. Diane Currently Reading: The Fellowship of the Rings, JRR Tolkein; Recently Read: War for the Oaks, Emma Bull 4+/5; Harry Potter #1 4/5; The Red Tent, Anita Diamant 4+/5; All the Weyrs of Pern, Anne McCaffrey 3+/5; ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:40 +0100 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU On 7 Dec 2001, at 14:03, Dave Belden wrote: > Agreed about the music especially. It would take a musician to write > this well about making music, and how often have I read fiction that > does that this well, or half this well, with any kind of music? In > fact, I'd like people to name any novel that competes. I mentioned McCaffrey and Lackey but they don't do as good a job as Emma Bull really. Well, actually McCaffrey comes pretty close in the Harper Hall Pern books - at least the first one (Dragonsong). But I just remembered a pretty corny young adult romance that Ursula LeGuin wrote, "Very Far From Anywhere Else". The way she writes about the girl's relationship to music rings very true for me. That shows what a fabulous writer LeGuin is, because I don't think she is a musician. The passages on music I liked the best in War for the Oaks were the ones that related the magic which sometimes happens when musicians perform. I could absolutely relate as a musician and as an audience member - it was thrilling to read. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:40 +0100 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU > So what was important to me? A lot, actually. There's a unique > chemistry in this book that makes it, at least for me, a revelatory, > life-affirming, read again and again experience. Yes, Eddi's attitude toward life and her responsibility to other people made me, strangely, proud to be human (as opposed to Fey - OK I read too much Fantasy!). She made being human pretty noble and worthy. I liked this about the book. So many SciFi and Fantasy novels make you want to be whatever creature it is that they encounter. This book was different. I'm from that corner of the world (Wisconsin) originally too. I could really relate, at least to the weather (don't laugh, this is an important thing to Midwesterners!). So often books take place in a certain city but you don't really get a feel for it as a real place, and those novels which have a fictitious setting don't have this gritty real feeling that Bull manages here. > The Music. Where would we be without it? And why don't writers talk > about it more? Maybe they just don't have the experience, don't know > the words. Maybe they just aren't as affected by music as I am. All of the above! I think it's a wonderful gift that Bull has shared with us. She has the ability to put music making into words and make come alive and mean something. Not an easy task. >Or maybe I'm not reading the right books. Anne McCaffrey was a singer and has put some good elements of music into many of her books. Mercedes Lackey does pretty well in the Bardic Voices series but otherwise I find them to be weak. Did no one else find Eddi's character to be too good to be true? I loved her, I want to be like her! She wasn't perfect, but when she made mistakes she owned up and learned from them. She was strong and a great leader without being over-bearing. Her relationship to each of the other characters was fascinating - she was a good friend and "boss". > The Romance. This is the book's biggest strength. Yes, the romance is very important, but I think the book's strength lies in showing how a human being can be honest and authentic and show amazing integrity and still be believable. > The relationship isn't presented as being about NEEDS at > all. It's about two people who genuinely respect each other, enjoy one > another's company tremendously, and get to have great sex into the > happily ever after. Wish fulfillment? Sure thing. And I love it. > > What about you? Absolutely! Thanks for a great email Janice! Diane Currently Reading: The Fellowship of the Rings, JRR Tolkein; Recently Read: War for the Oaks, Emma Bull 4+/5; Harry Potter #1 4/5; The Red Tent, Anita Diamant 4+/5; All the Weyrs of Pern, Anne McCaffrey 3+/5; ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:24:41 +0100 From: Diane Severson Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks - Favorite Passage To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Hi all. Does anyone else make note of passages which touched you profoundly when you read them the first time? Like Sandra, my favorite one-liner was: "We're all immortal till we die". My most favorite passage in War for the Oaks is found on page 134 of my Orb Books 2001 paperback edition (toward the end of Chapter 9, after Hedge finished singing): "The song hung in the air like a gift tentatively offered. But listening was a gift as well, and Eddi gave it. In the exchange, as often happens, both gifts increased in value. Fear and anger were gathered up in each single note, carried in ever-widening circles away from the heart of the room, and evaporated. It was not a lasting peace, but its effects lingered well beyond the end of the song." It shows Eddi as an incredibly sensitive person to others' needs and also puts into words what I hope to achieve (in some form) every time I perform. Goose-bumps! Diane "scents of not known musics in whose careful eyes are dinned..." e.e.cummings ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:33:12 -0600 From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU There is a young adult novel by Bruce Brooks, called _Midnight Encores_, about a cellist. It's classical, not rock, and more centered on the intimate experience of making music in a solitary fashion than on performing aspects. But the descriptions are equally resonant. It's one of my very favorite 'teenager' books. Marianne >On 7 Dec 2001, at 14:03, Dave Belden wrote: > > > Agreed about the music especially. It would take a musician to write > > this well about making music, and how often have I read fiction that > > does that this well, or half this well, with any kind of music? In > > fact, I'd like people to name any novel that competes. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:24:25 -0700 From: Susan Hericks Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU -----Original Message-----Sandra wrote: In the edition I have (2001, Orb Edition/Tom Doherty Associates), there is an appendix entitled "That Would Make a Great Movie" and it includes some scenes from a screenplay written by Emma Bull and her husband Will Shetterly. One of the scenes sheds a different light on the character of Stuart and until I read it I felt the same way as Janice described above. Bull points out: "Will and I were able to fill out Stuart's story and give it more resolution, something I couldn't do when I was writing exclusively from Eddi's point of view." I actually wish that I hadn't read these scenes at all! They seemed very predictable "Hollywood" to me, lacking the texture of the book. The climactic scene was especially hokey, I thought--the band prevailing, the crowd cheering, Eddie being swept up into the Phouka's arms. Please! I walked away from the book with a much less positive feeling after that. I loved this book, but I also felt that the tension wasn't kept up in the second battle or the final showdown. As someone else suggested, they were too short. I liked the scene in the ladies room with both faerie queens, however. The best part of this book for me personally was the Minneapolis setting. I lived there for 5 years, literally on the next street over from Eddie's, right on Loring Park. The nostalgia for Nicolett Mall and all the rest was just killing me. Hmmm... I was loving the book as I read it and now feel much less enthusiastic as some of its flaws begin to occur to me. Well---at least I finished the BDG book for once! I enjoyed reading all your comments. Lou, go and have lunch at St. Martin's Table for me, would ya? And take a stroll around the Walker Sculpture Garden while you're at it! Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:38:49 EST From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU In a message dated 12/19/01 6:24:59 PM Central Standard Time, shericks@PRESCOTT.EDU writes: >Lou, go and have lunch at St. Martin's Table for me, would ya? And take a >stroll around the Walker Sculpture Garden while you're at it! > >Susan Not a hard suggestion to follow up on! I'll give your greetings to the lakes and the falls too! And try another of Emma's books, "Bone Dance", Mpls in a not so wonderful future.... Lou ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:16:40 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU The month is nearly over, but I've been wanting to respond to a couple of messages in this discussion for weeks. Now I have time, so here goes... At 02:03 PM 12/7/01 -0500, Dave Belden wrote: >It would take a musician to write this well about making music, and >how often have I read fiction that does that this well, or half >this well, with any kind of music? In fact, I'd like people to name >any novel that competes. I second Diane's recommendation of McCaffrey's *Dragonsong* and *Dragonsinger*. The main character of those books needs to make music so badly that she is willing to risk corporal punishment and ostracism to do it -- very inspiring for teenagers trying to find some way to remain true to themselves. I agree also about *Very Far Away from Anywhere Else*, but more about that in another message. Another children's book I remember being very moved by was Virginia Euwer Wolff's *The Mozart Season*, an account of a few months in the life of a 12-year-old violinist. Adult books I can think of include Charles de Lint's *The Little Country* and... not much else. Ellen Kushner, Delia Sherman and Donald Keller edited an anthology of stories with musical elements entitled *The Horns of Elfland*, but I have not read it. >War For The Oaks does not have as completely new a set of characters and >concepts as Philip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy, which I find to be the >most inventive and exciting fantasy I've read in a very long time. It isn't >as ambitious in the ideas it raises. It does after all deal with the trad >faerie figures. But it's in there with the best of the books that are >remaking what fantasy is. I suppose this connects with magic realism... I love "His Dark Materials"! I agree, it's much more philosophical and daring than *War for the Oaks*, but then again, I think they were trying for very different things. Bull's book strikes me as a love letter to Minneapolis, a statement about the power of music, and a romance all wrapped up in a realistic novel masquerading as a fantasy. To me, the fantasy elements seem forced, but the rest of it is done so well that the uneasy fit doesn't bother me. In this way, it reminds me strongly of Pamela Dean's *Tam Lin*, another novel I love (which, incidentally, is also set in Minnesota -- what is it about that state? maybe I should visit). By contrast, Pullman takes on the Anglican church and oppressive Christianity in general -- he, in the spirit of Blake, is "of the Devil's party", republican (in the old sense), pro-sex, feminist, a radical in many ways. But I get the sense that he is spoiling for a fight in a way that has perhaps harmed his fiction. I was a bit disappointed in *The Amber Spyglass*, though I certainly respect it. What do you think of it? >One nitpick. If this is trad European paganism transported to America, what >happened to the other trad cultures now in America? The band has a black >guy, but where are the African pagan spiritfolk? The Native American spirit >people? Too complicated, maybe, to do it, to combine pantheons? It's >Minneapolis, after all, not New Orleans? It would have worked better for me, >all the same, if it had been set in Glasgow, for that reason - not that >Scotland lacks its immigrants now either... This is an interesting question. The only Native American character I remember in the book was the sassy girl who lived next door to the motorcycle salesman. Maybe it was intentional on Bull's part? An indication of how few indigenous people are left in North America? Quite a number of fantasy books and computer games I've seen have incorporated the principle that the fewer believers a particular god can claim, the less powerful and well known that god will be. This could be a sad statement about genocide and European colonialism ...or it could be an oversight on the author's part. In any case, as others have mentioned, *Bone Dance* and *American Gods* take different approaches to similar material. Charles de Lint's *Moonheart* and Terri Windling's *The Wood Wife* do also. Thanks for a thoughtful message! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: A Perfect Circle -- Mer de Noms "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 07:46:25 -0800 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] Emma Bull To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU For those in Southern California or its vicinity in late February 2002: Emma Bull and Will Shetterly are the Guests of Honor at ConDor IX http://www.condorcon.org/ Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:10:15 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks -- Addendum To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU At 08:16 PM 12/27/01 -0500, I wrote: >In any case, as others have mentioned, *Bone Dance* and *American Gods* >take different approaches to similar material. Charles de Lint's >*Moonheart* and Terri Windling's *The Wood Wife* do also. I forgot another interesting take on urban North American gods (in this case, orisha) -- Nalo Hopkinson's *Brown Girl in the Ring*, set in a future Toronto. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: A Perfect Circle -- Mer de Noms "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 15:36:05 -0500 From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks & Very Far Away from Anywhere Else To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU At 06:24 PM 12/11/01 +0100, Diane Severson wrote: >I just remembered a pretty corny young adult >romance that Ursula LeGuin wrote, "Very Far From Anywhere >Else". The way she writes about the girl's relationship to music >rings very true for me. That shows what a fabulous writer LeGuin >is, because I don't think she is a musician. This is another of my very favorite books. I've read it more times than any other Le Guin book, which is saying something, as she's one of my favorite authors, and my shelves are laden with her works. I'd be interested to hear why you thought it was corny. In my opinion, it's the farthest thing from it! It's written in the first person, in a conversational style that's quite different from Le Guin's usual approach, but that I think works marvelously to convey the point of view of a bright, funny seventeen year old boy. Like many teenagers, he feels alienated from his parents and most of his peers. His friendship with the young violinist is a romance; it is also a place where he can work out some of the doubts and existential angst he faces as he ends high school and wonders what to do with the rest of his life. It's a "coming of age" story, but it deals with the same issues of balance and right action as many of Le Guin's other works. The main character's crisis, in fact, is his forcing of the friendship into a "Man Plus Woman Equals Sex" model, a model that most romances take for granted. Their relationship is nearly ended because of it. So in a way, this book is an anti-romance. But once things are brought back into balance, they *do* become a romantic couple. Perhaps the right term for it is a revisionist romance. It says some important things about the necessity of true friendship and the recognition of a common humanity beyond gender in romance. But I think it's interesting that the main character's moment of crisis is presented explicitly in sexual terms -- he "loses himself", "drowns" in arousal -- and this is a *bad* thing. In contrast, when Eddi is with the phouka, "her thoughts were blurred and broken [...] all her senses failed in light and darkness" -- and this is a very *good* thing. *Very Far Away from Anywhere Else* is a young adult book, which might explain the approach to sexuality. But I've found that almost all of Le Guin's work exhibits this same tension. She clearly approves of romance, but it is usually romance drained of any real sexual element. It is about mind and spirit, not body. As a feminist, I understand suspicion about the role of sexuality and the possibility of objectification in male/female relations. Le Guin has written some very moving material about these issues. But even when she is trying to be positive about sexuality, I often feel that she doesn't whole-heartedly believe in what she is doing. *War for the Oaks* is a very different beast, and as I said before, that's one of the things I like about it so much. Eddi's sex life is perhaps unrealistically rewarding and free of problems (though she's angry at Willy when she learns that he used his faerie mojo on her, she never appears to regret their tryst), but it's a rare and refreshing portrayal in a sea of literature that often shows sexuality to be dangerous or degrading for women. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: A Perfect Circle -- Mer de Noms "I've built my white picket fence around the Now, with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:14:33 -0600 From: Diane Severson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: War for the Oaks & Very Far Away from Anywhere Else To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU Hi Janice and anyone else interested, I'm going to do a little back-pedaling here, because I guess corny wasn't exactly the word I would use now to describe _Very Far Away..._. However, I'm not sure what would be. Perhaps I should say that I was expecting this book to be somehow fantastic or science fictiony but it wasn't at all (I bought it used and found it in the SFF section!). So in that respect I was a bit disappointed when it turned out to be a young adult romance. I enjoyed it quite a bit, but I also found it to be rather preachy in a way. I do agree with the basic sentiments though, and I appreciate Janice's clear description of what goes on in the book. I think I will read it again - and this time I will most likely be more open-minded about the subject matter. LeGuin is far and away my favorite author, but I have so many of her books ahead of me to read, yippee! Just got copies of The Telling, Tales from Earthsea and the Other Wind, plus Rocannon and the Lathe of Heaven are waiting for me at home.... :-) Diane