Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:43:30 0100 From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU This month the BDG book is _Singer from the Sea_ by Sheri Tepper. Some list members have already started the discussion on the parallel list. I forward these messages below. Petra ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:42:00 -0700 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSFFU*] SINGER FROM THE SEA To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I liked this a lot, although since I'm already on to the next Tepper (THE FRESCO, due in December) I confess it's not as clear in my head as it might be. A lot of familiar Tepper themes (women and the environment saving the planet from men and war and stupidity). I liked the underground culture a lot. Hope this sparks some discussion! Maryelizabeth --- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: http://www.mystgalaxy.com 1.800.811.4747 General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 14:11:11 -0400 From: Dianne Kraft<103234.3341@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: [*FSFFU*] SINGER FROM THE SEA To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hi everyone, delurking to talk about Tepper -- I liked "Singer ...", but one problem I had with it was that so many generations of women on the planet had just given in and let stuff happen to them. And it's justified by saying that their ancestors had given up their rights and freedom in order to live "decently" on that planet. Is that realistic? Is that what happened here? Dianne Kraft ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:43:51 -0400 From: Lydia Lynsdaughter Subject: [*FSFFU*] Singer from the Sea To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I enjoyed Singer from the Sea except that sometimes the main character drove me just about crazy. In some ways, she was such a diz-brain! When she was traveling in 'commonfolk' disguise, she kept putting her foot in her mouth (and putting everyone in danger) with remarks about having had dinner with the countess or repeating something that a duke had said to her. When they took her to spy on the 'ritual', they warned her not to make any noise as she would be putting them ALL in danger, and through the whole thing, she struggled and tried to make noise! I kept wanting to scream, 'Get it together, chickie!' I just found those parts really annoying. Lydia Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:32:24 -0700 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] BG: Singer from the Sea To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Actually, Lydia, I thought this was interesting as Tepper presented her as someone who'd assimilated a fair amount of social conditioning and was also somewhat a creature of impulse. Making her struggle to overcome some of her own flaws was part of the struggle, instead of just having her struggle against outside forces. FWIW, Maryelizabeth Lydia Lynsdaughter wrote: > I enjoyed Singer from the Sea except that sometimes the main character > drove me just about crazy. In some ways, she was such a diz-brain! --- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: http://www.mystgalaxy.com 1.800.811.4747 General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 14:36:39 GMT From: Daniel Krashin Subject: [*FSF-L*] Tepper spoiler To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU *****SPOILER WARNING******* I really had a problem with the central premise of this novel. I mean, not only is the story set in a brutally misogynistic society, but at the end it turns out that they are sacrificing nursing women because their blood, when spilled on the sand, yields a drug which makes people immortal. I mean, geez, how farfetched can you get? Maybe Tepper feels this is a great metaphor for the exploitation of women, but for me the whole setup was so patently artificial that it ruined the book. I think it was the combination that put it over the top for me. I could accept the nasty society easily. I probably could have accepted the premise of the immortality drug, too, if that had been the central premise of the book. But the way they were combined, just struck me as crudely propagandistic. Too bad, I'll see what she writes next. Danny _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:10:45 -0700 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] Tepper spoiler To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU What Tepper is writing next is THE FRESCO. Earth makes contact with aliens, and we get a couple of "facilitators" to help us make any necessary modifications to ease our way into the cosmic alliance. Some great fantasy fulfillment in terms of the aliens and their superior technology "making" people exhibit reasonable behavior over things we've been stupid over for like forever. Maryelizabeth --- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: http://www.mystgalaxy.com 1.800.811.4747 General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 16:59:31 -0700 From: Joyce Jones Organization: Microsoft Corporation Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG Singer From The Sea To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I was surprised at Danny's reaction to the political comments in SFTS. This must be your first Tepper, Danny. My favorite part of her writing is the way she takes misogyny to its ultimate endpoint. She usually has the bad guys showing their disbelief in the personhood of women by using and abusing women in various ways. I think her books are directed at the women-five-steps-behind-men group to show them just how damaging to human beings this sort of thinking is. The idea of women being of secondary importance to men is so prevalent in most literature that Tepper's highlighting it is a necessary and refreshing turn. Unfortunately in SFTS I found the style to be so simplistic I was almost embarrassed to read it. It seemed to be directed toward the Harry Potter audience, and required no greater effort to follow than do those books -- pure escapism if it weren't for the political comments. Joyce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:35:46 -0500 From: Li Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nomination Period Opened To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 08:52 AM 9/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 9/12/0006:51 AM, you wrote: >>How do other list member experience this? What do you think is >>the reason for the low participation? What suggestions do you have >>to enliven the discussions? > >Perhaps someone could re-post each book's information about two or three >weeks before the discussion. It would perhaps remind some of us to buy the >book or order it via interlibrary loan. I often find that the discussion >is interesting, but by the time I remember to fill out an ILL for it, the >discussion is over. Speaking of which.... I'm pretty new to the list and have been lurking to get a feel for things. Since it's been quiet, so have I. I see that _Singer from the Sea_ is the Sept. book and the nomination period is for Nov.-Feb. Is there a book for Oct. or is that a book-free month while we do voting and stuff? I don't see a book listed on the website. As for _Singer from the Sea_, I fall in with the people that didn't like it very much because the main character seemed a bit silly. I was also reminded a lot of Frank Herbert's plot devices -- the life giving red power was similar to _Dune_, and the sentient sea from _The Jesus Incident_ and _The Lazarus Effect_. Li ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:16:51 -0600 From: Rudy Leon Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Singer To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I've been thinking about that lack of discussion problem, and I'm wondering if it isn't because we always seem to dislike so much the books being read for BDG -- Tepper certainly included! There's no doubt that she has certain priorities, and that these have become more and more prevalent over the years, or maybe, and here's a point for discussion, they haven't become more prevalent, they've just become her standard, and are therefore more visible. For the sake of my discussion here, it doesn't really matter which is the case. Let's just say out front that Tepper has certain concerns, and those concerns will always be so present in her work as to form the template around which she writes. Divergence would be discussion-worthy, but conformity, not so much. So, pointing out that she did it again doesn't really foster much discussion. These concerns: strong women living in worlds that have been utterly destroyed in some way by the actions of men as society; a harsh environmental situation which plays a large role in the plot; there's usually A Good Man; religion is important to the destruction of the world *and also* to its potential for re-creation/re- construction. Usually, some sort of biological determinism in the heroine. Most of this stuff is present in a very heavy-handed way after the 4th Tepper book. So, given the template, how's Singer from the Sea? I thought it was pretty OK. The rules of the world are very clear in the author's mind as she builds her story. Women are allowed to be strong in certain ways (household, usually) in the upper class -- I like that one of the ways the ineptitude and socially out-of-place-ness of Genevieve's father is shown is by his assumptions that women are useless pretty containers, and all the problems he would have had in court society without her help. I like that Genevieve was the sort of strong woman who realized that necessity was more important than making it on your own, and that asking for help was important and rewarded. I like that I was somehow able to buy that folks in this world had never picked up on the fact that all their elder statesmen never seemed to die. I disliked that everything that happened fed into the plot -- the slave in the archives (who reminds me now terribly of that freed house- elf in harry potter 3 & 4), the existence of the underground cache... I like that I was surprised when they showed up to save the day! Tepper went one step past the expected, and was able to surprise me. Someone asked a few days (weeks?) back about how women came to be so complacent about the way their lives were being misused. I started thinking about it, and realized that steps might have been taken in the past of the book, and that Tepper states the rule, and doesn't play it up (subtlety? she didn't even get what she was doing? you pick). If lots and lots of women were dying in childbirth (not so unusual), and significantly more were dying off the homestead, someone might assert a tradition that said that pregnant women shouldn't travel. But wait, the men are callous, and make the women travel anyway. Revision: children born *not on the homestead* can't be declared legitimate heirs! That should work, men want legitimate heirs, women secure their futures by producing legitimate heirs, and voila! no one should want to or be able to make pregnant women travel! So the rule serves two purposes: most women don't want to take the risk and won't go. Willful, independent- and reform- minded women (uppity!) *will* go. Those who go, die. Evil men rid the world of uppity women.... (thought so much more articulately in my head, much less sarcastic, the beauty of the subversion of the rule laid out so crystal clear.... a writer I am not! but a very good thinker...) More thoughts about Tepper? Rudy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:10:31 -0500 From: Robin Reid Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] responses to list/Singer To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I thought that the reason I didn't respond to the posting about lack of postings a few days ago was that I was so busy, but this posting makes me think there are other reasons.... >I've been thinking about that lack of discussion problem, and I'm >wondering if it isn't because we always seem to dislike so much >the books being read for BDG -- (Rudy Leon) And now I realize that I wasn't posting because of my frustration with the nature of the postings. I haven't made many postings recently -- I don't always have time to read the BDG selection and while, in theory, that's not supposed to limit discussion, it does seem to. My sense of things is that quite a few postings are critical of books -- and whether postings are critical or not, no real discussion seems to emerge, more just a set of isolated postings. I don't know if there's any way to solve this problem. I don't want 100% marshmallow postings, all sugary sweetness either, but the tone sometimes seems to be not only critical but presented as the only way to read a book. If there's any value to this sort of forum, surely it's hearing/understanding how different readers can respond so differently to books, to learn from other readers what we might have missed (and that can include good things and problematic things) in a book, get ideas for more reading, and overall just enjoy all the different approaches and ideas that can go into various kinds of feminist science fiction. And, I emphasize, learning how many books are out there to read. I happen to love Tepper's work for the most part (some of the books strike me as weaker than the others -- some stronger), and think that while she (as do most writers) certainly has her points to make, she's also able to diverge at times in interesting ways. I love how, at the end of SIX MOON DANCE, I and I think other readers were fooled into thinking that the culture was killing their girl children which was not at all the case, showing how our own ideologies can fool us! My favorite Tepper... coming down to the trilogies these days. The Jinian, Marianne, and the series that's not quite a trilogy by traditional definitions, Grass/Stones/Sideshow (as an academic, I LOVE the view Tepper presents of university faculty thinking they can create a superior society and refusing to listen to the "engineer" technician) are incredible. Part of how we respond to books is what we bring as readers--and one of the reasons I so find her work compelling is that I was born in 1955, raised in a small town in Idaho, informed from birth that I was supposed to marry as soon as possible and have children, immersed in an anti-intellectual environment, with all or any knowledge of various sexualities suppressed so successfully that I was in college before I even learned that there was such a thing as "homosexuality," so suppressed that I was not able to come to an understanding of my own sexuality until I was nearly thirty -- and all this even though I was raised in a family that was well off for the time/place (my father was a university professor, Dean, at the land-grant university), expected to go to college (to meet a better class of men?????), and included both race and class privilege (being white and middle class). Even after I escaped (well, my parents' divorce sure freed things up for me), and went to a school and in a degree of my own choice (English -- my father said he wouldn't pay for me to take English, so I took History, then Classical Studies) -- I remember years of college where I read numerous male writers, but no female writers in my courses (in the late seventies/early eighties). The "world" Tepper creates is familiar to me because I inhabited a version of it during my childhood. Even with regard to ecological issues/pollution linked to patriarchy... well, I live in Texas at the moment where all the oldest/most polluting factories have been excused from current standards and grandfathered in. Doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me to equate male-dominated/industrial societies with pollution and destruction of the ecology. So while some might question how women decided to "give up" their rights or (on this plane of reality) decided not to push for rights (and all my doctoral work involved how class, ethnicity, and "race" are involved with any questions of gender, and I know how complex that is and keep looking for science fiction that deals with it), I'm not surprised. I know from experience how difficult it is to go against everything around you and question what is expected of you since I spent a good part of my life thinking I was crazy. One of the most important validations I had was science fiction, including STAR TREK (ok, now looking back, the original series looks sexist, but it was pretty amazing at the time), Andre Norton, Joanna Russ (who I found when I was 14 and was one of the writers who convinced me I was NOT insane), and a few others... During those earlier years, only a handful of women were publishing science fiction (or much of anything else) -- it's wonderful to look around these days and see how that has changed, along with everything else. So much great stuff out there, and I used to get names and ideas for reading from this list, but that doesn't seem to be happening any more. I've been sort of hanging on out of loyalty or habit or something, but I just don't know anymore. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:01:32 +0100 From: Heather Stark Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I'm a new lurker - but I suspect, along with others, that the reason why there hasn't been a roaring trade in remarks about Singer from the Sea is that there ain't a lot to be said about it. Here's my not a lot. The book is a blend of three elements: (1) an action-danger/romance/fairy tale plot, which gallops along, and dragged me along despite myself. [the romance element in SFTS reminds me of Kate Elliot - also my embarrassed reaction to liking it. as in: ooh! press those buttons! yes! oooh, there's a hero! loverly! and gosh it's all ideologically correct! even more loverly! uh, whoops, you're pressing my buttons a bit *too hard*! but it's loverly! and it's OK 'cause it's correct. ennit...] (2) black and white goodies and baddies entangled in this good ole fashioned plot [the characters aren't interesting. instead, they're emblematic. no time left over from their signaling function for any ambiguities or conflicts.] (3) the plot is used to illustrate a radical and yet highly sentimental polemic [saved by cetaceans... yeah, right. next please. gaia. how nice.] Inspection of my bookcase reveals six other Teppers. And you might well ask: why buy Tepper, only to whine about what she writes? Like... what's my problem? My problem is that I read Grass, and was entirely impressed. Ever since, I've been buying Tepper hoping to find something that I liked as much. (I'd stopped - having found it unrewarding- but was inspired to have another go by BDG.) So... what did I like better about Grass, compared to Singer from the Sea? (and compared to the other Teppers sitting there on my shelf waiting for a better life with a less grumpy owner...) Let me just quote lazily from the cover blurb of the UK Corgi edition - 'Marjorie Yrarier is one of the most interesting and likeable heroines in modern science fiction' NY Times Book Review This isn't something I can say about whatserface. I remembered Majorie's name, after nine years. And I can't remember whatserface's. That's the problem. cheers, Heather ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:38:47 EDT From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In a message dated 9/16/00 5:07:13 PM, heather.stark@VIRGIN.NET writes: << (3) the plot is used to illustrate a radical and yet highly sentimental polemic [saved by cetaceans...yeah, right. next please. gaia. how nice.] >> Oooh, golly. "Sentimental"??? Just at the time when whales are once more under the guns. I didn't think it sentimental. I continue to like Tepper's work, even though I know there will be a message punched pretty hard. Well, hell! the message is needed and she does it well. I like the tidiness of her work, although I could imagine someone else would not. You mention "romance" and Kate Elliott in the same breath with -- what? -- a bit of dismissal? Elliott is one of my favorites. She's a wonderful story-teller, and, really, that's why I read fiction -- for the story. I have a rule of thumb for Elliott's books: Do not start to read a new Kate Elliott book after 11 o'clock. I'll stick by my guns that Maguire's Wicked is a better, more complicated, richer book than Ugly Stepsister. best, phoebe wray ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:06:51 +1000 From: Julieanne Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU At 10:01 PM 16/09/00 +0100, Heather Stark wrote: >I'm a new lurker - but I suspect, along with others, that the >reason why there hasn't been a roaring trade in remarks about >Singer from the Sea is that there ain't a lot to be said about it. I have to agree Heather :) Besides I didn't bother reading it! I also have several Tepper books on my shelves, but I must have overdosed at one time, as I can't really dredge up any more interest in what has become a "formula". Gate to Women's Country is a classic, and for me, Grass & Six Moon Dance stand out a little as they had some good characterisation, but generally her themes have become repetitive and formulaic, and her characters increasingly cardboard cut-outs. Don't get me wrong, I still like Tepper - and I hope her hammering her message home, in her admittedly very prolific output, grabs new readers with every new book. Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:53:01 -0800 From: Sharon Anderson Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Tepper To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Well, I LIKED Singer from the Sea. I agree that Grass is a more memorable book, but Tepper is welcome to push my buttons anytime. ---s ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:31:41 -0400 From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG SINGER FROM THE SEA To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Well, this may not be fair to Julieanne, as she admitted she hasn't read _Singer_, but I have been thinking about it since the BDG started getting comments: How is the unbelievable naivete (as one person said) of the main character in SFTS different from the main character in _Gate to Women's Country_ and her lack of perception about what was really going on with the separate groups inside and outside the gate and manipulating selection? Is GTWC more of a 'classic' because at that time (10 year difference, several books), we might not have been as sure of Tepper's ideas? I haven't figured it out. I would say that neither of those two books are my favorites, but that perhaps the one thing that would place SFTS higher in my list up with GTWC (there because it is a sex-segregated society with women in charge) is that in SFTS, the way that the subtleties of women foregoing access to power/change (that's what I vote for, Rudy) is supposed to make the reader think (and counter) any ways that they may be doing it in their lives. misha Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:00:03 -0800 From: Allyson Shaw Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Singer From The Sea To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I have to agree with Joyce-- that the writing was what put me off this book. I liked the over-the-top plot formulations, the blood/breast milk/immortality thing, and the misogynist society all worked well to keep me reading. What I didn't like was the use of dialogue to convey information. Though this can make for tedious reading, it happens sometimes in sci-fi, and can be OK. But here, dialogue was conveying information woodenly, sometimes saying things we already knew. And sometimes making a character a cardboard cutout is acceptable, but that happened in this book too many times. It was too easy. Someone said that the characters are two-dimensional on purpose, but I didn't get the feeling that this novel was operating as an allegory, where the characters would represent ideas, and therefore be simplistic. This novel struck me as attempting to build a world with real people in it-- I thought it was going for realism. So in that sense, the characters failed for me. If it were more of a fairy tale or a surrealistic narrative, maybe that kind of wooden characterization would have worked for me. I have some Tepper on my bookshelves, waiting in my to-be-read shelves. This was the first novel I read by Tepper, and I'm disappointed and reluctant to dive into the others. Any suggestions on better Tepper novels? I'm hearing two things from the discussion-- that Grass and Gate to Women's Country are better, and that all operate on a similar formula. I like the formula, but didn't like the execution. Sorry to be critical. It's strange, I haven't liked several books we've read in the BDG-- but I loved Kissing the Witch, and I liked Remnant Population as well as others. I don't expect to like everything nominated. But when I don't like something, I really welcome the opportunity to complain a bit, and articulate why it didn't work. That's one of the reasons I'm on the list, is to get suggestions on what to read and to compare notes, good and bad, with other readers. --Allyson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:36:41 +0100 From: Heather Stark Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Singer from the Sea To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU there are some themes in the commentary I'd like to pick up on... to do with Romance, Sentiment and Ideas Phoebe's advice not to start a Kate Elliot at 11pm is sound! and... it's liberating to think that liking romance needn't be embarrassing. But my cringe-threshold hasn't receded very far away. Don't know what the cover art for Singer from the Sea is like in the US. The VG trade paperback in the UK features a naked lady who looks like the flower child on the Clairol Herbal Essence bottle (circa late 60s/early 70s). She is encircled by two dolphin-like creatures with multiple dorsal fins. The whole ensemble forms a yin-yang symbol. To me - this is still real 'plain brown wrapper' stuff. So I call it 'sentiment' - and I intend the term pejoratively. Which brings me to the interesting diversity of views in BDG on the sentiments, and ideas, of Tepper's work, and the work *as a novel*. >Some people like the ideas, and like the book, too (e.g. Phoebe, Sharon, Allyson) >Some people like the ideas, but find the book lacking (e.g Joyce, Allyson - double counting ;-) >Some people find the premise unrealistic, and don't much like the book (e.g. Danny, and to some extent myself) A propos of the ideas in Tepper, and her work as a novelist, Misha and Julieanne and Rudy have all wondered about the evolution of Tepper's work over time - whether she has changed - or - perhaps more to the point - *not* changed over the years. I went back and picked up Grass again, to wonder about this. The scenario in Grass - of cultural misinterpretation and things which are almost familiar but misleading - is still as engaging as ever for me. This cultural brew is richer in Grass - it has more stray elements, and things left unexplained. More like a real culture - with a solarising rather than polarising filter, perhaps. It's this, as much as the characterisation of Marjorie, that helped me enjoy Grass, I think. I am not a whole-hearted believer in Tepper's ideas. So, for me, they go down more easily when they have a deep compost of this 'extra stuff' around them, in which my imagination can flounder around and put down its own roots. Dunno if this makes any sense to you... all the best, Heather ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:44:46 -0400 From: Frances Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Tepper To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Why-so-little-Discussion question With "Six Moon" and "Singer" I was feeling a bit baffled, wondering if it's "just me", so I've been interested by the discussion. I reluctantly conclude that Tepper may be -- oh, I hope not burning out. Perhaps trapped in the "book a year" contract/expectation. And even these two had plenty of enjoyment to offer, but I find I can't really remember them even after two or three readings, whereas "Grass" and "Raising the Stones" are embedded. I did enjoy "Family Tree" although with a major reservation or two. It worked a bit of magic for me, perhaps because it resonated with my other favorite, the Jinian trilogy (especially "Jinian Footseer"). I find I can return to the earlier work (except "The Revenants", which I have never been able to fathom) with as much enjoyment as ever, and am re-reading the mysteries quite happily at the moment. I think she peaked with "Grass" and "Stones". I do hope I'm wrong! Frances ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:58:18 -0500 From: Susan Hericks Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Tepper To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Dear all of ya'll (as they'd say here in the south) Well, I am clearly behind you all in my reading, as I have been for months, but I finally finished Tepper. I have also been thinking about the Why-so-little-Discussion question and have a few comments. A propos of the latter, from my own experience of posting on a book, sometimes putting considerable thought and energy into it, I have found it really discouraging to often never be responded to. I think, for example, of a post I made on _Ring of Swords_ that I was excited about and eager to engage in discussion, but it didn't seem to spark anyone else's interest. I know it's considered a faux pas to write a post that just says, "you're so right , Susan!" or "I don't know where you came up with that one, Susan!" But, speaking for myself, it would encourage me to stay tuned and continue to participate in the discussion. Perhaps we could send this sort of encouragement to personal emails rather than the whole list, if no one minded. It does seem like our most controversial books (i.e. Butler) have inspired the most participation. It is easy to write when we have knee jerk reactions to something, but everyone here is smart enough to do more than that. I read _The Dazzle of Day_ very late in the discussion, perhaps even after the specified month, and it was such a gorgeous book that I wanted to say something about it and didn't. I am disappointed in myself that I also seem to respond best to controversy and have a harder time expressing myself when it comes to some quieter, but magnificent, writing! It's a cliche, but it seems like a case of getting out of something what you put into it. The list, that is. I am resolving to do my part! I also think that asking the nominator to begin the discussion of her book is a good idea. I have nominated books in the past and would be eager to take that on. So--Tepper. I have been reflecting on the irony of how such a good writer can still produce a book that is (to me) often boring and (to some others, apparently) formulaic. When I discovered Tepper about five years ago I read everything I could get my hands on, starting with _Grass_. _Raising the Stones_ is one of my favorites, partly because of my interest in religion. I also loved Northshore/Southshore, which I haven't seen others mention here. While I liked _The Gate to Women's Country_, I didn't find it to be as notable as some make it out to be. Unfortunately, I haven't yet tracked down the Marion (?) books which are Robin's favorites. The latest three, (_Family Tree_, _Six Moon Dance_, and _Singer..._) have disappointed me. On the positive side, Tepper's "formula" is usually pretty impressive to me. Her imagination is powerful and her stories have a momentum that is engaging. She usually creates some pretty detailed cultures that almost always have some disturbing, hidden secret that is revealed slowly. I think that Tepper is usually very successful in this "mystery" aspect of her writing. ( I haven't had a chance to read her Orde or Oliphant mysteries). While the reader knows that something is up and can make some guesses about what it might be, Tepper manages to keep some complicated surprises up her sleeve. In this book, I was still surprised and interested in the complexity of the lichen, as when we figure out the effect that male blood has on it. On the other hand, finding out that the "other things" that Genevieve had been up to in the basement with her mother involved breathing underwater with gills just didn't seem to jibe with what I knew of her character/identity. Others have commented that the characters weren't well-developed and I agree. I wasn't as bothered by Genevieve as some were, but I wasn't very involved with her trials. (Whereas I was with Grass' Marjorie). The characters were not very interesting or complex in general. I WAS very annoyed at the end of the book when G. tries to reassure her husband that she is ordinary after he can't handle viewing her as powerful and uniquely different. Although I'm still having a hard time putting my finger on why this book and Six Moon Dance, to an even greater degree, bored me, I think it is probably this question of character development. While Tepper's cultures and cultural clashes are fascinating, I ultimately don't care a lot about whether her particular protagonists succeed and survive. I had this same problem in _Family Tree_, where the characters seemed to fill stereotypes. While I am on board with Tepper's environmental views, I am also largely unmoved by her writing about them. And when will she stop using the term "mankind"?! There is a lot to praise about Tepper and I will continue to read her books, but I hope that she can develop some characters who are as compelling as her cultures. BTW: Amy, I have enjoyed your book reviews, thanks. I would also just like to tell you all that I have learned so much about this genre through this list! When I started writing my dissertation using LeGuin and Starhawk (which is done, thank you!) how little I knew about all the great feminist sci-fi out there! Now I know a lot more, thanks to you. I just read _The Terrorists of Irustan_ by Louise Marley which someone nominated awhile back, but it wasn't chosen. I liked it, so thanks! I also read two of Slonczewski's books and loved them! All of you out there -- someone is interested in your opinions and finds this list worthwhile! Let's not let this sense of discouragement over low participation get us down :o) Was that terribly long? Ah! Peace women, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:59:06 -0400 From: Pamela Bedore Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Tepper To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Hello folks, I haven't actually read Tepper's most recent science fiction, because I got a bit turned off 3 or 4 books ago... like many others, I loved several of her earlier books, but got a bit bored at a certain point. On the other hand, I continue to enjoy her detective fiction, written under the names A.E. Orde and B.J.Oliphant. Each series has a central character, Jason Lynx and Shirley McClintock, respectively. Perhaps because these are series, the character development is relatively complex and interesting, and I definitely care about the characters even when I disagree entirely with their politics (esp. in the case of McClintock!). These books are short (150-250 pages) and maintain the reader's (at least *this* reader's) interest throughout. I wonder if Tepper is having more fun with her detective writing these days... to me at least, those books seem to have more energy. I'm curious to know if others are reading the mysteries, and if so, what people think of them. On an entirely unrelated note, have others read Robert J. Sawyer? Cheers, pamela bedore department of english university of rochester ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:59:43 -0700 From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Tepper To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In response to Susan and others' posts: > The latest three, (_Family Tree_, _Six Moon Dance_, and _Singer..._) > have disappointed me. I found this to be different from my experience. I thought she had a fallow period between SIDESHOW and FAMILY TREE, and SIX MOON DANCE was one of my favorites of hers. The in-betweens, to me, had the problems mentioned here where the "agenda" of the story overrode any possible interest in the characters (esp. SHADOW'S END and A PLAGUE OF ANGELS, which I have a hard time even remembering). GIBBON'S was a fun puzzle at the end of the book, but otherwise not as compelling as some of her other works. I really really liked THE FRESCO, and think the main character is very identifiable and real and fully realized. AFAIK there are no new mysteries on the horizon. She last wrote an Orde in like 1997, and an Oliphant in the same year, IIRC. Her characters were interesting, and I liked reading the series, but most of the time the mystery element was not that complex. Pax, Maryelizabeth http://www.mystgalaxy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:34:33 -0400 From: Frances Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Tepper To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maryelizabeth Hart" >I really really liked THE FRESCO, and think the main character is very >identifiable and real and fully realized. Oh GOOD!!! Something to look forward to! I need it. >AFAIK there are no new mysteries on the horizon. She last wrote an Orde >in like 1997, and an Oliphant in the same year, IIRC. Her characters >were interesting, and I liked reading the series, but most of the time >the mystery element was not that complex. I only read mysteries for "non-mystery" elements, and I like Tepper's. Somebody else mentioned disagreement with Shirley McClintock's politics -- various, yes, but I do like the character, which I suspect to be at least somewhat Tepper-based. Frances